Read it here folks, and then discuss.. or even discuss over there is you like.
Or here.. spoiler for keeping it short on return visits
4E Test Drive
I had a chance to actually play D&D 4th edition today. A friend of mine who still works at WotC got permission to run the demo adventure from the D&D Experience at her monthly game day. Since I'm still waiting for WotC to finalize the Game System License, this was the first opportunity I've had to see something of the rules and try them out.
Short Review
It's an interesting system that didn't so much feel like D&D in play; nonetheless, the brand power of D&D all but ensures this will be a success and it may even redefine what D&D means for the next generation.Long Review
Since the announcement of 4E last Gen Con, a common critique of the emerging rules was that they looked more to MMOs than RPGs. My play experience suggests something else. The roots of the new rules are not in MMOs at all, but collectible card games. Building your character seems much like building a deck in Magic: the Gathering. You have a selection of powers and special abilities that are exceptions-based. Some powers you can only use once per encounter, like tapping a card in a CCG. Character turns have a very specific order, with beginning and end of turn actions used to handle bookkeeping issues. Part of character and party building revolves around power combos. In short, 4E seems to be what people feared was going to happen with 3E after WotC bought TSR, though thankfully without a collectible component.Now one of my concerns had been that 4E would simply be a revised 3.5. I'm glad 4E is not that. I really felt that 3.5 was just more complicated than it needed to be and I hoped that 4E would simplify things. While it does fix many of the ongoing issues with 3.5, my feeling after today's session is that it's just complicated in a different way. It's not something I think experienced gamers will have a huge amount of trouble with, but it does seem that 4E may be even more unfriendly to new players than 3.5 was. It looks like 4E requires newbs to make too many choices and track too many things to make it truly accessible. Since D&D has always been the entry point for most RPG players, this is my most serious concern.
Of the current D&D players, I suspect most of them will switch over to the new edition, despite the unimpressive marketing campaign that we've seen to date. There are many options for character customization and players who like tactical combat will find a lot to work with. I understand there are some kind of social interaction rules, but I haven't seen them. The focus seems squarely on combat from what I could tell. There were interesting choices to make during fights and it wasn't just a matter of trotting out your best attack again and again. The CCG style of the rules and the changes to the IP did make the game feel a lot less like D&D though, at least to me. And since the rules seem to have been tailored to provide a very particular experience, I don't think they will make as good of a base for the variety of campaign settings D&D used to see. It's pretty clear that WotC realizes this, which explains why they felt the need to advance the timeline and have an apocalyptic event in the Forgotten Realms. I don't think many of the old campaign settings will transition over without a lot of cutting, spindling, and mutilating.
What I think WotC is going for here is what Marvel managed to pull off with their Ultimate line of comics: take the core of the IP and redefine it for a new generation. There will certainly be some longtime fans disenfranchised by this move, but I don't think there will be enough of those folks to hurt 4E. (I do think, however, that there will be enough of those for a third party company to carve out a good business for itself catering to them, but that's a topic for another day.)
All of this is, of course, based on what I've managed to glean so far from released info and today's play experience. I would naturally like to see the new rules in their entirety and doing so may change my opinion about some things. If the GSL gets sorted out this month, maybe I'll get the chance for a more in-depth read soon. If I feel like spending 5K to do so anyway.
Speaking as myself now.. wow.. this is thought provoking.
You know, having played a lot of MMO's myself, I wasn't quite seeing the connection that everyone else was pointing to, and yet there was something to it that I just couldn't put my finger on.
Chris' likening 4th Edition to a CCG without the collectible aspect suddenly crystalizes what I couldn't quite identify for myself.
Being a very rules neutral person, this has been one of the reports that has really given me pause in regards to 4th edition.
When you're an ex-diceless guy, fluff is everything, and 4th edition sounds like it might well be inimical to the old fashioned style campaign that I've come to love as Pathfinder.
Chris' likening 4th Edition to a CCG without the collectible aspect suddenly crystalizes what I couldn't quite identify for myself.
While he makes a good argument about how it is like MtG, everything I've read makes it sound closer to DDM. Now, I'd argue that DDM was originally based on MtG, but I feel that 4E is closer to DDM. But then again, I never played 4E. I have however played DDM and MtG.
EDIT: Single biggest example I have why I feel that 4E is more like DDM then MtG. MtG has (or at least had) a blue deck option. Blue deck was the controller deck. You made your opponent spend cards to their trash so they'd run out of cards faster and lose, or make them put creatures back in their hand, so they'd have nothing to defense themselves with or steal your opponent's creatures or etc. There really isn't that kind of build in DDM, atleast not to a large extent. The Controller Role, from everything we've heard is artillery, not someone that can make like hell for the DM by charming monsters, dominating people to follow your will, moving their pieces around on the board, stealing their powers, etc.
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Thank goodness someone intelligent, thoughtful, and respected wrote this...but why does everyone assume we'll all succumb?
I just deleted the pages long rant that went here...mainly because no one cares or I don't care if you do. You play your D&D and I'll play mine.
Anyway, I appreciate Chris' review because it is not glowingly positive and yet not negative either.
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It's pretty clear that WotC realizes this, which explains why they felt the need to advance the timeline and have an apocalyptic event in the Forgotten Realms. I don't think many of the old campaign settings will transition over without a lot of cutting, spindling, and mutilating.
Great news for the 3.75ers
Great news for the 3.75ers
Indeed!
And Dithering...? Don't you take heart in that he feels a company could probably do well catering to those who chose not to succumb to this redefinition of the hobby?
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Great news for the 3.75ers
It's pretty clear that WotC realizes this, which explains why they felt the need to advance the timeline and have an apocalyptic event in the Forgotten Realms. I don't think many of the old campaign settings will transition over without a lot of cutting, spindling, and mutilating.
Whoever those are. Of the dozen people I know locally, besides myself, only 1 other is remotely interested in third party D20 options. Everyone is willing to stick with 3.5 or change over to 4.0 if it works. I myself would play a 3.75 option only because D20 rules are D20 rules and if a certain spin on those rules makes the game easier, I'll try them. However, I know any venture would be short lived since the campaign settings I like don't use said rules.
The cutting, spindling, and mutilating of a certain campaign setting effects more then our game play, but our reading also. The Forgotten Realms is more then just a world some of us play in, it's a novel series we enjoy and this mutation directly effects the books.
Here's hoping for an eventual "Age of the Chosen" product like, similiar to how Dragonlance has 2 lines.
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Whoever those are. Of the dozen people I know locally, besides myself, only 1 other is remotely interested in third party D20 options. Everyone is willing to stick with 3.5 or change over to 4.0 if it works. I myself would play a 3.75 option only because D20 rules are D20 rules and if a certain spin on those rules makes the game easier, I'll try them. However, I know any venture would be short lived since the campaign settings I like don't use said rules.
There are quite a few of us who would prefer Paizo went their own way with the ruleset. Honestly, there is no better time for them to, they could literally steal away the D&D fanbase out from under WotC (or at least split it considerably). The OGL lets them do that, and I think the GSL is going to be so ridiculously restrictive that this will be anyone's only chance to.
They're taking chainsaws to my childhood and Paizo is the shining knight.
Strange, I sort of reached the same conclusion about 4th edition feeling more like MtG myself over the weekend, after having read the rules primer, and several reviews from D&DXP (most of them neutral).
The feel I get from most of the folks in my area is one of reluctance: most don't want, or don't intend to change. There's a small group that's fairly enthusiastic about it (though many of them are moving next month). But most of the folks at my FLGS aren't enthusiastic about 4th, no one in my games are enthusiastic about it. This may very well change (I realize this) once the books are available.
Having no intention of switching, I'm primarily interested in what the GSL does, and what third party publishers intend to do. If the GSL is a bomb (so to speak) and many publishers decide not to switch, there may be a very decent chance that individuals that are luke-warm to 4th that want to keep playing 3.5 (or whatever) will support those companies whole heartedly. The question is, will there be enough? It's hard to say at this point. Nobody seen the GSL, and we've only seen a smattering of the rules.
Honestly, there is no better time for them to, they could literally steal away the D&D fanbase out from under WotC (or at least split it considerably).
I wouldn't say that such a move would split the fanbase, because the split is already there: even with such a move, Paizo shouldn't be accused of splitting the community. But it sure would be good for those who feel like WotC's new edition made them jump out of the bandwagon / is not for them.
(And I feel a tiny amount of "pride" at seeing that I'm not the only one who found many similarities between 4E and collectible card games.)
True 20 will be my 4th edition. I've never played CCGs and never will. No one in my gaming group has ever played CCGs. If that's what 4e is supposed to be, then there's another reason for not buying it.
Let me see....yeah, let's disenfranchise those stogey old 40 somethings who are now making more money than they ever have by turning their favorite childhood hobby into something totally alien to many of them.
Who needs the disposable hobby income of a family of gamers that makes more than $120,000 a year anyway?
Paizo? Yeah....
The only problem with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) going against 4e is the influx of new gamers.
Yes, Paizo may have a solid group of stalwarts who stay 3.5 . . .but in 2-3-4 years they will likely be facing diminishing returns.
Essentially, what I am saying is this:
The danger of hitching your business to the current edition is you have a set # of people (most set in their ways and games) and that number is likely to be much more limited and much less likely to grow as quickly as 4e consumers.
I do not envy Paizo's choice.
I've never played CCGs. So the whole power options thing is new to me. I like it. Still have no plans to play CCGs.
Also Eberron and K. Baker fans, he has posted his thoughts on his blog. A link is on ENworld
Yeah it what I knew was going to happen, 4e has made a Mockery out of D&D. It's a Miniature Board game now...action packed... battle playset with a few books and different boards(Dungeons)
Yeah it what I knew was going to happen, 4e has made a Mockery out of D&D. It's a Miniature Board game now...action packed... battle playset with a few books and different boards(Dungeons)
What? I though the game du jour was CCG. Before it was mini skirmish, board game, first-person shooter, MMORPGs, WoD, Exalted, etc., etc (I'm sure I forgetting a few)
Eventually they will succumb to the greed and brand mismanagment that the WoTC execs are all too guilty of.
...but think of all the fun they have!
Tim,
While I am in no position to argue that Paizo has created an intensely loyal fanbase with fairly deep pockets for gamers, I think there are two salient points:
1) The community here on the forums is a very vocal and loyal, however, it is but a slice of the entire pie. It must be for the Paizo boards still feel like a small town to me, I can recognize just about everyone . . .they are obviously drawing people from elsewhere with their products and it has yet to be seen where these people stand on 4e.
2) Does Paizo want to go toe to toe with WoTC/Hasbro. As Pramas said, WoTC has the $ to make 4e the most widely played RPG. Would it not be wise for Paizo to use all the skills and talents you so aptly named in pursuit of this much larger and faster growing audience. Also, wouldn't it be nice to not have to worry about the headache of marketing and actively seeking converts to their particular game system, when they can just focus on telling awesome stories that D&D players want?
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The only problem with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) going against 4e is the influx of new gamers.
What makes you think Paizo can't attract new gamers? They've been doing a pretty damn good job of it so far methinks. I was never a Dungeon/Dragon subscriber, I picked up a few issues every now and then but held no Paizo loyalty whatsoever until Pathfinder started coming out.
At first it was just curiosity, I wanted to jump in on a new campaign setting as it was coming out; then I found out Paizo listens to their fanbase!. It was an amazing experience and I feel like Pathfinder is as much my own homebrew world as it is their's.
Everything I've seen from 4E flies in the face of the D&D traditions which Pathfinder seems focused on preserving, it just seems counter-productive for Paizo to make their jobs harder by going with the new system.
The only problem with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) going against 4e is the influx of new gamers.
What makes you think Paizo can't attract new gamers? They've been doing a pretty damn good job of it so far methinks. I was never a Dungeon/Dragon subscriber, I picked up a few issues every now and then but held no Paizo loyalty whatsoever until Pathfinder started coming out.
At first it was just curiosity, I wanted to jump in on a new campaign setting as it was coming out; then I found out Paizo listens to their fanbase!. It was an amazing experience and I feel like Pathfinder is as much my own homebrew world as it is their's.
Everything I've seen from 4E flies in the face of the D&D traditions which Pathfinder seems focused on preserving, it just seems counter-productive for Paizo to make their jobs harder by going with the new system.
Misunderstanding.
Of course Paizo can attract new customers. They attracted you and I and a host of others. BUT, that is because partially we were all* indoctrinated into 3.5 via WoTC. As you said, you happened to be looking for something within the realm of 3.5 (a Campaign Setting) and Paizo had it.
Listen, I will be one of the first ones up the mountain top to sing Paizo's praises, and I've made that clear here, on other boards, and during the chat . . . Paizo consistently blows me away
I am just thinking out loud, and while I back Paizo 100%, I just have a hard time believing that Paizo can rival the number of 4e players we will see in the coming years. There is something to be said for name brand regardless of quality**, and in our hobby DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is name brand, the name brand.
* all = many
** not an indication that I am expecting poor quality from 4e
I am just thinking out loud, and while I back Paizo 100%, I just have a hard time believing that Paizo can rival the number of 4e players we will see in the coming years.
As much as I would like to prove you wrong, I just don't have the knowledge to do so.
But you do have to keep in mind that Paizo doesn't have to rival the number of 4th Edition players. They need a much smaller customer base to remain comfortable. I'd love to be able to say with certainty that they would get it without switching to 4th. But...
I am just thinking out loud, and while I back Paizo 100%, I just have a hard time believing that Paizo can rival the number of 4e players we will see in the coming years.As much as I would like to prove you wrong, I just don't have the knowledge to do so.
But you do have to keep in mind that Paizo doesn't have to rival the number of 4th Edition players. They need a much smaller customer base to remain comfortable. I'd love to be able to say with certainty that they would get it without switching to 4th. But...
True, Disenchanter, but I believe Paizo, if faced with the option of being comfortable with a smaller base from which to start or growing quickly with a larger base from which to start . . .
well, you see what I mean.
Of course, this is all conjecture and Paizo knows whats best for them.
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And Dithering...? Don't you take heart in that he feels a company could probably do well catering to those who chose not to succumb to this redefinition of the hobby?
Yes, as a publisher, I think this statement carries a lot of weight! I hope lots of old and new shops keep the faith. I throw as much money as I can at them and I advise people to vote with their dollars.
True 20 will be my 4th edition. I've never played CCGs and never will. No one in my gaming group has ever played CCGs. If that's what 4e is supposed to be, then there's another reason for not buying it.
Let me see....yeah, let's disenfranchise those stogey old 40 somethings who are now making more money than they ever have by turning their favorite childhood hobby into something totally alien to many of them.
Who needs the disposable hobby income of a family of gamers that makes more than $120,000 a year anyway?
Paizo? Yeah....
You know, I've heard alot about True 20 and have not yet touched it... I'm about tempted, how is it?
I think that paizo would be able to gain new players if they kept with the 3.5 edition model. I consider myself a serious gamer but I have never kept with one game system model for long. I started with FASERIP marvel super heros (still love it), moved to a D&D/AD&D hybrid, jumped on the 2nd edition D&D band wagon (no interest in going back), then would play only WoD for my entire college experience. Once 3rd edition came out I floated back into the D&D camp and a big reason for that was the OGL. As a gamer I like to play different games and try out/read different systems occasionally (even rifts god help me). I do not buy the "to be successful it must be D&D" logic though I will say that it is easier from a marketing standpoint to jump on Wizard's coattails and let them bring in the new blood. Even if Paizo is not 100% compatible with the new rules there will be a subset of the population always looking for something different and with good stories and quality like paizo has they will gain a share of that market.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm just waiting to see which of the rats leaves before the ship sinks. My money is on that Chris Tomasson characer who now calls himself Chris Young.
Anyone know why the guy changed his name?
My understanding is that he did so for personal reasons.
Guys, I appreciate support and lord knows whatever we decide we're going to need a ton of it, but I respectfully ask you guys to draw the line at personal insults against WotC staffers, particularly ones that used to work at Paizo.
Chris Youngs is a good guy. Please don't insult him here.
Thanks.
And Dithering...? Don't you take heart in that he feels a company could probably do well catering to those who chose not to succumb to this redefinition of the hobby?Yes, as a publisher, I think this statement carries a lot of weight! I hope lots of old and new shops keep the faith. I throw as much money as I can at them and I advise people to vote with their dollars.
I agree. I am a writer in the gaming industry, and may have to buy the three main books for 4th for merely that reason, but I plan to stay with 3.5 and may also pick up the 3.0 core books again because I've noticed that many of them go for dirt cheap at places like Half.com now. For the companies that stay with 3.5 I plan to become much more active as a consumer... I'll be voting with my dollars... but for the 3.5 camp. Also for companies that make system/edition generic products.
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Same one you are. When I refer to talent I am speaking to the crappy art that fills most of the books WoTC has produced post core, the lousy writing, poor editing (I wonder if anyone over there uses spell check), poor product quality, and most importantly poor management.
Except that Hordes of the Abyss book, those guys should be the ones in charge...oh wait =p
That review is very interesting, and after reading this and having a look at the character sheets linked in another thread (To pick an example: Wizards casting magic missile at will, and with an attack roll? Does not sound like my D&D.), I´m more inclined to stay at 3.x. I guess I should start building up my own house rule collection for 3.x now, as I will probably stay at it for quite a while. What I´ve seen of 4e so far does not appeal to me.
Just my 2c.
Stefan
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I've never played CCGs, so I don't really understand the comparison. Pramas's review is interesting as far as it goes, but that isn't really very far. I still really don't know much about what they new game will be like, other than it "feels" different. Well, 2e felt different to 3e but that doesn't help me much.
I guess what I want to know is this - would I gain from changing? Why doesn't he feel that a lot of the new crunch and old fluff is compatible (though the evisceration of FR suggest he is right, though still doesn't answer the question)? How does the gaming experience differ - in detail? How does it affect power-gamers? Roleplayers? What is combat like? How does the CCG comparison actually impact on the game?
I'm not criticising Pramas - his post was just him trying to give an impression of what the new game is like, for our delectation, and I tank him for that. And he probably can't say too much anyway. But is was tantalising without actually adding much (to me, at least).
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CEO
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The only problem with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) going against 4e is the influx of new gamers.
Yes, Paizo may have a solid group of stalwarts who stay 3.5 . . .but in 2-3-4 years they will likely be facing diminishing returns.
Essentially, what I am saying is this:
The danger of hitching your business to the current edition is you have a set # of people (most set in their ways and games) and that number is likely to be much more limited and much less likely to grow as quickly as 4e consumers.
I do not envy Paizo's choice.
I just have to jump in on this thought. IF we were to stay with 3.5, what makes you think that there wouldn't be an influx of new gamers? To wit, take a look at Games Workshop. Their business model is to bring in young kids, around age 14 to 16, and basically they expect to lose them in 4 to 6 years. Companies like Privateer Press make their bucks taking the ex-GW players and making them into Warmachine or Hordes players. Rackham does this also.
So why couldn't Paizo, IF we were to stay with 3.5, get a regular influx of younger gamers who got weaned into the industry by 4th edition, but got bored and started looking for a more complicated game, or perhaps heard about this amazing campaign setting called Pathfinder Chronicles? I don't really understand why everyone thinks that IF a company stuck with 3.5, that it was like they were stuck in a hermetically sealed room or something.
Of all the pros and cons everyone mentions about 4e vs. 3.5e, this one drives me the most nuts. :) So, again, I ask, why would sticking with 3.5 mean entering a game of diminishing returns?
-Lisa
DISCLAIMER: This post is entirely a thought exercise and shouldn't be construed as proof either for or against Paizo going to 4e or not. We haven't seen the GSL or the rules yet, so we have no decision to report. I just couldn't resist making this point though. :)
No matter what Paizo does they will still have a very, VERY strong advantage with the 4E crowd:
The Gamemastery products. The Item Cards and other aids work no matter which edition you play and, from what we've seen, these aids are even more needed for 4E. Quest Cards, Skill Challenge Cards, more Item Cards (I love those), Condition Tracking aids, etc.
Those items are going to be useful no matter what. As a matter of fact, I imagine that the demand for them will increase. It would also help introduce new players (from 4E) to Paizo's quality products, even if Paizo decides not to switch over.
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I just have to jump in on this thought. IF we were to stay with 3.5, what makes you think that there wouldn't be an influx of new gamers? To wit, take a look at Games Workshop. Their business model is to bring in young kids, around age 14 to 16, and basically they expect to lose them in 4 to 6 years. Companies like Privateer Press make their bucks taking the ex-GW players and making them into Warmachine or Hordes players. Rackham does this also.
So why couldn't Paizo, IF we were to stay with 3.5, get a regular influx of younger gamers who got weaned into the industry by 4th edition, but got bored and started looking for a more complicated game, or perhaps heard about this amazing campaign setting called Pathfinder Chronicles? I don't really understand why everyone thinks that IF a company stuck with 3.5, that it was like they were stuck in a hermetically sealed room or something.
Of all the pros and cons everyone mentions about 4e vs. 3.5e, this one drives me the most nuts. :) So, again, I ask, why would sticking with 3.5 mean entering a game of diminishing returns?
-Lisa
DISCLAIMER: This post is entirely a thought exercise and shouldn't be construed as proof either for or against Paizo going to 4e or not. We haven't seen the GSL or the rules yet, so we have no decision to report. I just couldn't resist making this point though. :)
With respect, how many people have actually started on 3e and turned back to 2e? I appreciate that there is a difference between that and your suggested turning 4e players into 3e players, but even so I don't see it. I do see people being turned on to Pathfinder, but I find it hard to believe the 4e players who have started with that edition will want to turn to an older edition to get extra D&D goodness. I would imagine they would probably assume it was the same, but "older" and "fiddlier", and instead turn to a different game that didn't mention dungeons and dragons in the title. And they might be right.
At this point, I don't see, even with my major reservations about 4e, there really being another game in town in a few months for anyone wanting to run a business publishing D&D material as anything other than a hobby or sideline. I defer to Lisa and her understanding of the business, but as a consumer in that market I don't really see the suggested outcome as likely if I am (somehow) representative. (I also appreciate that no one really knows anything at this stage.)
It seems that it would depend on the strength of the Pathfinder brand rather than the 3.5 OGL 'brand'. From Lisa's response this has clearly been discussed, and I would certainly be sticking with Paizo on it.
To win new people in though Paizo would need their own PHB, and that brings up the whole spectre of 3.75.
This thought experiment is a considerable one. Perhaps someone should post Lisa's comment in a new thread.
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Correct me, if I am wrong but, what I have seen from 4E is the following:
The new encounter format (Delve Format IIRC), seems to be restricting in itself, as it looks that the complexity of an encounter seems to be shortened, as only two, max. three different creatures could be used to be able to stick to two pages, not talking about traps or whatnot which have to be included.
The whole feeling the 4E previews gave me, make me think that 4E is all about COMBAT not ROLEPLAY! Of course, I could be wrong, but I am sure this is true.
I don't play D&D because of cool combats ('course, I like them), but with a setting like Pathfinder the whole world and scope of D&D (as we all know it) is there for you to explore. 4E looks more like Min/Maxing for me and I am sure, 3.x will remain strong.
People will flock over to 4E, that's sure, but I am also sure, that quite a few of them will come back, because 4E is not what they had expected.
Paizo is strong (with Pathfinder anyway), and they have all the reason (and could be most confident) to believe, heck to know they can hold their base against 4E and are even able (maybe more than any other company presently) to attract new players to the game!
My dream: Paizo recruits Monte Cook and then have ALL the best designers out there in their boat. Imagine what pleasure, JJ, Eric, Jason, Monte, and all the others from Paizo we got to repsect for their talent would bring us if work in one place... ;)
I made a new thread for people to reply to Lisa's post because some people who might like to read it are avoiding 4E threads.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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4E Test Drive
What I think WotC is going for here is what Marvel managed to pull off with their Ultimate line of comics: take the core of the IP and redefine it for a new generation. There will certainly be some longtime fans disenfranchised by this move, but I don't think there will be enough of those folks to hurt 4E. (I do think, however, that there will be enough of those for a third party company to carve out a good business for itself catering to them, but that's a topic for another day.)
I found this interesting, as at least the die hard Marvelites still have their universe published (with mixed results).
I'm wondering if we'll see GR continue to make their Rulesfree setting + true20 +3.x +4.x version? GSL permitting of course.
Or are we going to see imprints if the GSL restricts OGL products, as I suspect it will?
Green Ronin -> Purple Ninja games Paizo -> Oziap publishing White Wolf -> Black dog... Oh wait, we have that already.
I posted this in Kruelaid's thread for Lisa's response as well.
I saw this over on ENWorld just this morning:
Living Arcanis will not be moving to 4ed and in fact is to break its connections from D&D altogether. In an open letter to the Living Arcanis Yahoo Group, PCI president Henry Lopez wrote:
"Hello everyone,
I was given a head's up about this hotly talked about topic and I think its important to let you guys know a decision we at PCI made a short bit ago: After this current story-arc, Arcanis will not be going 4E (or remaining 3.5E for that matter).
Why?
A few reasons: The two main ones are that the 4E rule set is not a good fit for what our vision of Arcanis is. Marrying Arcanis to D&D in the first place was like shoving a square peg in a round hole, but with enough shoving and Vaseline, we made it work. Now with 4E and its focus on it being more of a tactical wargame as well as some Core Arcanis classes like the Druid.
Secondly (and in my opinion most importantly) if we have to go through a 4.5E or 5E switch over (and don't kid yourself, one of those two or both will occur) it will kill us as a company. Ever since 4E was announced sales of 3.5 books have plummeted across the industry. The fact that we're going to produce a few 3.5 Arcanis books for the Summer is a huge gamble for us as well as our faith in you, the Arcaniac, that you will continue to support us regardless that the book is using 3.5 mechanics.
As far as I'm concerned, the D&D horse is no longer one which PCI can hitch its wagon to. It just doesn't make business sense to us to do so. So unless something drastic occurs, we will instead be going for a PCI owned system that accentuates an Epic Fantasy setting and play.
Does that mean we may lose some of the player base? Yep, I fully expect a certain percentage of players who only play Arcanis because its another D&D world and that we give away lots of free adventures to leave us. Others may just be done after playing for 6-7 years and want to try something new.
I'm banking on those of you who love the story and want to find out what happens at the end as well as discovering new and unknown lands of Dar Zhan Vor and beyond. It may be a smaller player base, but it will be wholly Arcanis players and from there we'll steadily grow like we did before.
Some of you may find this a disappointment and for that I'm sorry. However, this is the best decision to make for the company and, at the end of the day, I need to care more about PCI than about WotC. I'll stand by and monitor the group for the inevitable "You're wrong", "You're going to kill LA" and other assorted and creative expletives. ;-)
Best,
Henry Lopez
President
Paradigm Concepts, Inc."Thanks to dm4hire for the scoop.
Interesting. Not sure if it means others will follow suit, just gives another perspective of a publisher.
Thank goodness someone intelligent, thoughtful, and respected wrote this...but why does everyone assume we'll all succumb?
The assumption is based on the previous editions as they were released... and also the basis of my assumption that I'd convert as well.
I like the comparison of 4e to DDM. The first thing I thought when I saw the once per encounter powers was the DDM cards and the little check marks for the spells and whatnot.
Still, these changes are to the combat portion of D&D, not the character interaction rules, like Chris said, which haven't been released yet.
I'm still hoping that I will really like 4e, but many of the previews are not filling me with warm fuzzies, and I might end up being being one of the people that support the 3rd party publishers that keep up 3.5.
I'll still buy the core books, and I'll start from there.
I just couldn't resist making this point though. :)
Excellent point! You have convinced me that Paizo should stay with 3.5.
;)
(And yes, the rest of your disclaimer was ignored.)
The only problem with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) going against 4e is the influx of new gamers.
Yes, Paizo may have a solid group of stalwarts who stay 3.5 . . .but in 2-3-4 years they will likely be facing diminishing returns.
Essentially, what I am saying is this:
The danger of hitching your business to the current edition is you have a set # of people (most set in their ways and games) and that number is likely to be much more limited and much less likely to grow as quickly as 4e consumers.
I do not envy Paizo's choice.
I just have to jump in on this thought. IF we were to stay with 3.5, what makes you think that there wouldn't be an influx of new gamers? To wit, take a look at Games Workshop. Their business model is to bring in young kids, around age 14 to 16, and basically they expect to lose them in 4 to 6 years. Companies like Privateer Press make their bucks taking the ex-GW players and making them into Warmachine or Hordes players. Rackham does this also.
So why couldn't Paizo, IF we were to stay with 3.5, get a regular influx of younger gamers who got weaned into the industry by 4th edition, but got bored and started looking for a more complicated game, or perhaps heard about this amazing campaign setting called Pathfinder Chronicles? I don't really understand why everyone thinks that IF a company stuck with 3.5, that it was like they were stuck in a hermetically sealed room or something.
Of all the pros and cons everyone mentions about 4e vs. 3.5e, this one drives me the most nuts. :) So, again, I ask, why would sticking with 3.5 mean entering a game of diminishing returns?
-Lisa
DISCLAIMER: This post is entirely a thought exercise and shouldn't be construed as proof either for or against Paizo going to 4e or not. We haven't seen the GSL or the rules yet, so we have no decision to report. I just couldn't resist making this point though. :)
Lisa, thanks for posing this question as I haven't heard it stated in such concise format on these boards.
There is NO reason why Paizo wouldn't be able to attract young gamers by staying with 3.5 then with 4.0. In matter of fact I believe they will be able to attract more gamers then 4.0 and here's why:
- Many gamers are now 30-somethings with kids. So far I have played board games from Fantasy Flight Games with them and will continue to do so until they are 10. At that point I'll introduce them to D&D 3.5. I've been purchasing your products in preparation for that time and I feel as if I get extra support from these boards on how to run games more efficiently and effectively.
- 3.5 seems like more of a game then 4.0. It will be more "sticky" with consumers then 4.0. 4.0 is packaged nicely for 4-6 hour slots, but will wind up with the same issues as video games. Once the end guy is beaten, kids will move on. 3.5 may require more time, but it will also engage players more.
- If 3.5 is given proper support it will become the "big kids" game compared to 4.0. 4.0 is oversimplified and is more pure fantasy then fantasy simulation. The rules light game will become repetitive and kids will seek out more advanced options.
- Paizo has the writers and artists to capture the imagination of the younger generation more so then WoTC. The work done by the present staff pales in comparison to that of the Paizo staff. Paizo offers enticing story lines that are consistent, well thought out, and engaging. The artwork is flashy, crisp, and eye catching. WoTC has gone cheap and for that they have an incoherent setting, choppy artwork, and books that look like art students designed them.
- Lastly, and I think most important, the 3.5 market is here to stay and will nurture the younger market. They have the experience that has been passed down for 30 years to pass on the tradition of D&D and remind people of its roots.
P.S. Lisa, if you are going the 3.5 rout and are looking to recruit more young players, I suggest that you have your staff build a "Living" campaign based on Golarian. I see many parents who bring their kids to LG events in New England and have no desire to see their kids switch to 4.0 after buying them the 3.5 books. Plus there are alot of people who want to continue playing 3.5 in a Living format.