To add to Sean's comment...
Being fairly new to 3.5, when I inflict temporary ability damage (which on paper seems a really neat way to handle poison), it slows things down a great deal as players adjust everything in an attempt to play fair.
You don't have to be a math wizard, but I watch them trying to retabulate their AC and hit modifiers, and it's a pain..
Thank you, Sean! I wouldn't have been able to answer as politely and well-grounded as you did (which is why I generally try to stay out of any 4E-related discussion).
It certainly helps that I had reasonable people I was speaking with, like Watcher. If I just kept getting attacked instead of having a conversation I would have just let it drop.
I am a bit sad it kind of took over this thread though... not really the place for it.
Sean Mahoney
Well..Hmmm...
You make a compelling case for toning down snarky comedy, and trying to have an open mind. (Which I am trying to do)
I wasn't involved in the game at that time, and I take your word on what happened to that community. Sad.
I certainly wouldn't like to see that happen here.
There is just no way things can go back the way they where. No matter what happens the community is going to split into two groups. If the Polls etc. are right then a majority of the posters will stay with 3.5... but the big name posters, people like Steve Greer, can't possibly stay. There professionals in this industry and they have basically no choice but to upgrade to the new edition if they want to keep selling their work. So we end up with a split where say, 2/3rds of the fan base stays with 3.5 while 1/3rd moves to 4th but that 1/3rd includes a great many of the industry professionals.
Certainly for me one of the neat things about Paizo is the ease with which all members of the industry mix here so that one can find themselves getting into a debate with either a casual gamer or an industry professional or semi-professional and really no one thinks all that much about it. If I want to tell a published author like Nicholas Logue that I think his opinion on something wrong, so long as I do so in a fairly polite manner, well thats OK here because, at Paizo, Nick is entitled to his opinions and I'm entitled to mine. You don't really find this very many other places. Thus a 1/3 - 2/3 split in the community but with most of the big names going to the 1/3 part is going to cause some significant change in the atmosphere around here. Probably not for the better either.
Certainly for me one of the neat things about Paizo is the ease with which all members of the industry mix here so that one can find themselves getting into a debate with either a casual gamer or an industry professional or semi-professional and really no one thinks all that much about it. If I want to tell a published author like Nicholas Logue that I think his opinion on something wrong, so long as I do so in a fairly polite manner, well thats OK here because, at Paizo, Nick is entitled to his opinions and I'm entitled to mine. You don't really find this very many other places. Thus a 1/3 - 2/3 split in the community but with most of the big names going to the 1/3 part is going to cause some significant change in the atmosphere around here. Probably not for the better either.
At the risk of sounding wishywashy, I don't disagree with you either.
It is unfortunate, nevertheless.
For myself, I find myself getting tired. I wish the other shoe would drop and be done with it. As I said to Sean, I think that sentiment is why it's getting harder to have civil, thoughtful discussions on the matter.
It must be frustrating for the Professionals and Sales Support people who want to soothe the customers (keeping them happy and buying product), and can't, because they either haven't got the information, and will be bound to silence by an NDA when they do.
Sucks for everyone really, but something we have to weather through. The thought that the atmosphere might be not so cool afterwords is disheartening.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd think it also would suck for freelancers like Nick, Steve, Ari, etc.
I'd think it also would suck for freelancers like Nick, Steve, Ari, etc.
They might be like us, waiting for the shoe to drop, and likely having to wait until June/July to see what this does to their workflow
They could already be under NDAs working feverishly for WotC projects and want to tell us it will be all good, but can't.
True that.
Harder for freelancers even.
EDIT: You know, some were surprised that Wolfgang's Open Design contribution based fundraiser for the $5000.00 License was met so quickly...
(If you didn't know readers, people donated to help Wolfgang Baur raise money for the license for Open Design, and the top twenty contributors will be considered freelancer members of Open Design and therefore able to sign the NDA under Wolfgang's purview and get look at it with him. He raised the money in days.)
...but chipping in with Wolfgang might have been the only way for some freelancers to get a look at it (under $5000), and not be left out in the cold.
Freelancers don't look at opion polls or create business models. They fight for scraps. I hope they haven't quit their day jobs because they are going to fall on hard times once the major players choose sides.
Here's my bet:
1. Paizo sticks with 3.5 or 3.75 and becomes the major player in this spot. They keep churning out great products and maintain a healthy, profitable, following. For the freelancers out there this is called a business model.
2. WoTC is the main producer of 4.0 material. I say main, because as with the release of 3.0, a number of players will jump in for 4.0 dollars. These companies will include Fantasy Flight Games, Goodman Games, Necromancer Games and freelancers. WoTC will have moderate, but disappointing results. Especially with a recession coming along. WoTC boneheads are charging way too much for their books. I'm not going to comment on the DI. I'm not sure if it even exists.
3. The independants and freelancers outher then Paizo will go 4.0. They will be sorely pressed to make a buck as stores will remember the garbage they foisted on them the last time around with 3.0. Since none of them have nice websites as direct sales channels like Paizo (except for maybe Goodman Games) they will be forced to split the difference with any distribution channels out there that they can piggy back on.
4. Ebay is and will be flooded more with tons of RPG material as people find systems they are confortable with and jetison the stuff the don't want or need. This will have a negligable effect on the overall RPG spend to the major players, but none the less, it will have an impact.
Just my two cents.
Troll, Troll, Troll
Freelancers don't look at opion polls or create business models. They fight for scraps. I hope they haven't quit their day jobs because they are going to fall on hard times once the major players choose sides.
Here's my bet:
1. Paizo sticks with 3.5 or 3.75 and becomes the major player in this spot. They keep churning out great products and maintain a healthy, profitable, following. For the freelancers out there this is called a business model.
2. WoTC is the main producer of 4.0 material. I say main, because as with the release of 3.0, a number of players will jump in for 4.0 dollars. These companies will include Fantasy Flight Games, Goodman Games, Necromancer Games and freelancers. WoTC will have moderate, but disappointing results. Especially with a recession coming along. WoTC boneheads are charging way too much for their books. I'm not going to comment on the DI. I'm not sure if it even exists.
3. The independants and freelancers outher then Paizo will go 4.0. They will be sorely pressed to make a buck as stores will remember the garbage they foisted on them the last time around with 3.0. Since none of them have nice websites as direct sales channels like Paizo (except for maybe Goodman Games) they will be forced to split the difference with any distribution channels out there that they can piggy back on.
4. Ebay is and will be flooded more with tons of RPG material as people find systems they are confortable with and jetison the stuff the don't want or need. This will have a negligable effect on the overall RPG spend to the major players, but none the less, it will have an impact.
Just my two cents.
Troll, Troll, Troll
Well said - and I'm hoping that WOTC folds, curls up, and croaks (much like a dead spider) once 4E goes public. From what I'm reading and seeing from Paizo and other indy press companies, gamers are looking for GOOD product created with their needs in mind and they are willing to invest in such. They don't need to be inundated with the latest "new and improved" versions of their favorite game - one they, the consumer knows just as much about if not more, and one that is basically in their control - after all, it is the CONSUMER, those of us down here in the trenches, who shells out the bucks for the game(s) we love.
So a word to the powers that be: ye better take good care of the folks who pay yer bills or ye'll find yer asses out on the street!And I mean that in the nicest way. :)
-g-
My guess.
Paizo will have shown WotC recent Pathfinder issues and asked them if they would fly with the community standards section of the OGL. WotC probably would not answer questions of this nature until Paizo signed the NDA. Once the NDA is signed, Paizo probably asked again. Assuming WotC said they were fine, I imagine that Paizo would ask for a seperate agreement (in writing) stating that WotC was ok with various things that they are planning to use in future pathfinders. Then once WotC lawyers hemmed and hawed for a while, they give it a thumbs up or down, and then Paizo would pony up the 5K.
If WotC blows away on the wind, so do most of the (probably already struggling) FLGS's.
Most (smart) FLGSs don't derive a majority of their income anymore from RPGs. Between TCG, comics, board games, manga, videos, and similar, RPGs might make up a non-insignificant portion of their income from RPGs, but not an amount that they can't make up from other sources.
D&D is still very much the 'gateway' game from what I've seen.
That is definitely true. I may not like 4E, but WotC may indeed draw in a new generation of gamers with it.
I'd think it also would suck for freelancers like Nick, Steve, Ari, etc.
They might be like us, waiting for the shoe to drop, and likely having to wait until June/July to see what this does to their workflow
They could already be under NDAs working feverishly for WotC projects and want to tell us it will be all good, but can't. True that.
Harder for freelancers even.
EDIT: You know, some were surprised that Wolfgang's Open Design contribution based fundraiser for the $5000.00 License was met so quickly but chipping in with Wolfgang might have been the only way for some freelancers to get a look at it (under $5000), and not be left out in the cold.
Ding! We have a winner. I don't know about others, but I'm certainly in that boat. It's certainly not guaranteed, but there's a chance I can see the 4e rules and begin 4e freelancing much earlier and for less than the full $5000 by contributing to Wolfgang. Again, there's still a lot of unknowns to be determined, but it improves my odds at least.
As for the big names Matthew mentioned, I'm pretty sure most have the rules and are slaving away for WotC right now or for other companies working "blindly" until they pay for Phase 1 and can see their freelancers' work. Ari has publicly stated that he is doing this. In fact, he's almost done writing for Necromancer (on their Advanced Player's Guide), and I don't know if they can even see his work yet. I would bet that most of the big name Paizo freelancers were at least given an opportunity to work on WotC projects. I don't know, but I'd say it's a safe bet.
Us small name freelancers, however, we're scrambling. :)
There professionals in this industry and they have basically no choice but to upgrade to the new edition if they want to keep selling their work. So we end up with a split where say, 2/3rds of the fan base stays with 3.5 while 1/3rd moves to 4th but that 1/3rd includes a great many of the industry professionals.
I wouldn't say that. I'm certainly no big name, but I plan on freelance writing for 4e as soon as I can (and have some potential projects out there), but I am going to playing 3.5 for my main home game for quite a while to come. Too many good adventures to run and I use published adventures to save time, so converting them to 4e kinda nixes that. I certainly can't speak for others, but I see no reason why "writing for 4e = abandon 3.5" is necessarily true.
Well said - and I'm hoping that WOTC folds, curls up, and croaks (much like a dead spider) once 4E goes public.
Considering that the rest of the "industry" can be lost in a rounding error on the WotC balance sheet, I hope WotC has a long and successful run, even if I'm not particularly looking forward to 4E and don't intend to invest in it myself.
If WotC blows away on the wind, so do most of the (probably already struggling) FLGS's. Without WotC behind it, RPG distribution via the book channel probably disappears as well. So much for the face-time appeal of stores and newbie accessible gaming groups.
D&D is still very much the 'gateway' game from what I've seen. Everyone has heard of it, and it makes a good entry point for the hobby. From there, people often branch out to other systems, but that first step is critical.
And don't delude yourself - without WotC releasing more or less universal core rules, the indy market won't last long, either. Half Price Books and eBay don't have an infinite supply of the old editions, and casual new players aren't likely to spend two hours scouring the internet for a 7 year old PHB II that some guy found in his garage...
Are you, by any chance, related to Liz Stroh the WoTC marketing genious?
TROLL!
I certainly can't speak for others, but I see no reason why "writing for 4e = abandon 3.5" is necessarily true.
I'm not going to be abandoning 3.5 anytime soon. As long as I find publishers willing to publish 3.5 material, I am going to be pitching them ideas. I may end up writing for another system/game in addition to 3.5, but I have no intention of stopping.
Can't stop the signal, Mal.
I wouldn't say that. I'm certainly no big name, but I plan on freelance writing for 4e as soon as I can (and have some potential projects out there), but I am going to playing 3.5 for my main home game for quite a while to come. Too many good adventures to run and I use published adventures to save time, so converting them to 4e kinda nixes that. I certainly can't speak for others, but I see no reason why "writing for 4e = abandon 3.5" is necessarily true.
My experience with the more prolific industry professionals has been that much of the time their talking about stuff thats at least sort of related to whatever they are working on or have recently worked on. So a message board increasingly devoted to 3.5 becomes a place they can't really talk about their work. My hunch is that they eventually migrate to En World or another home where they can set up shop and talk about their latest and greatest project and some other gaming on the side.
I also suspect that most port to 4th moderately quickly. Think about it ...you've just finished writing a module that includes a cool snake that comes out of a fire bottle, its a great encounter. But does your mechanic work? I mean it seems like a cool idea when you wrote it up...well you have these guinea pigs that pony up to your table every week and you could write the snake encounter into their current adventure - but probably only if their playing 4th. Plus free lancers usually like what they write. They'll probably want to include their favorite bits into their home game. So, baring WOTC totally screwing the pooch, they'll probably, in general, be some of the first to convert. They have a stronger incentive then Joe Blow gamer.
Freelancers don't look at opion polls or create business models. They fight for scraps. I hope they haven't quit their day jobs because they are going to fall on hard times once the major players choose sides.
Here's my bet:
1. Paizo sticks with 3.5 or 3.75 and becomes the major player in this spot. They keep churning out great products and maintain a healthy, profitable, following. For the freelancers out there this is called a business model.
2. WoTC is the main producer of 4.0 material. I say main, because as with the release of 3.0, a number of players will jump in for 4.0 dollars. These companies will include Fantasy Flight Games, Goodman Games, Necromancer Games and freelancers. WoTC will have moderate, but disappointing results. Especially with a recession coming along. WoTC boneheads are charging way too much for their books. I'm not going to comment on the DI. I'm not sure if it even exists.
3. The independants and freelancers outher then Paizo will go 4.0. They will be sorely pressed to make a buck as stores will remember the garbage they foisted on them the last time around with 3.0. Since none of them have nice websites as direct sales channels like Paizo (except for maybe Goodman Games) they will be forced to split the difference with any distribution channels out there that they can piggy back on.
4. Ebay is and will be flooded more with tons of RPG material as people find systems they are confortable with and jetison the stuff the don't want or need. This will have a negligable effect on the overall RPG spend to the major players, but none the less, it will have an impact.
Just my two cents.
Troll, Troll, Troll
A scenario that is just as likely:
1. Paizo sticks with 3.5. Sales aren't enough to keep them open and they are forced out of business (or at least downsize enough that they can't put out the adventures you want).Or, Paizo goes with 4th edition and sells enough to make up for the people who stay with 3.5 (most of whom don't really need any more books or adventures anyway).
2. Wizards, Necromancer, Goodman Games, etc. produce 4th ed material and it is a big hit. Considering all the cheap 3.5 books I'm picking up on the used book market, I think a lot of people are either looking forward to 4th edition or getting out of role-playing all together.
3. Agree completely here. Except Goodman games is rather popular and produces excellent products.
4. Ebay and used bookstores are already flooded with rpg books. I picked up the Eberron Explorer's Guide, Five Nations, Player's Guide to Eberron, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Mysteries of the Moonsea, Unapproachable East, Dragonmarked, and Silver Marches for under $100 total (including shipping).
I don't think that is a good sign for 3.5.
...and if they don't sell any more RPGs, what's the reason to host games? Just another way to lose visibility to potential new players. RPG tables take up a lot of space, especially if they represent a market the store is no longer in. Space that could be better used to display TCG, comics, board games, manga, videos, and similar...
Minis games, minis painting contests, TCG tourniments, board game championships. Plenty of good things to use those tables for.
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A scenario that is just as likely:
1. Paizo sticks with 3.5. Sales aren't enough to keep them open and they are forced out of business (or at least downsize enough that they can't put out the adventures you want).
Or, Paizo goes with 4th edition and sells enough to make up for the people who stay with 3.5 (most of whom don't really need any more books or adventures anyway).
2. Wizards, Necromancer, Goodman Games, etc. produce 4th ed material and it is a big hit. Considering all the cheap 3.5 books I'm picking up on the used book market, I think a lot of people are either looking forward to 4th edition or getting out of role-playing all together.
3. Agree completely here. Except Goodman games is rather popular and produces excellent products.
4. Ebay and used bookstores are already flooded with rpg books. I picked up the Eberron Explorer's Guide, Five Nations, Player's Guide to Eberron, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, Mysteries of the Moonsea, Unapproachable East, Dragonmarked, and Silver Marches for under $100 total (including shipping).
I don't think that is a good sign for 3.5.
Interesting points :
1 Not sure either way2 These companies are already struggling as it stands. I remember discussing sales with some of them on another forum quite a while ago.
What I remember from the discussion, is that sales for a D20 product could be from 1000 to 5000 copies. Most being around 1000. Whatever the real figure, it is very small.
So it could rather be : 4 e comes out, a significant number of diehard, collecting, people like me don't go 4e because of fluff changes, and the D20/OGL market is amputated by ... 75 % ?
AFAIHS, casual gamers do not but many 3rd party books. Only the dedicated fans.
I have said I will still buy Paizo, even if they go 4e. I have not said the same for the other publishers.
3 Excellent ... hmmm ... the ones I have seen were not excellent, and certainly way below Paizo's. I still want them because they're 3.5, though.
4 yeah, but that's something to be expected : there is nothing special here at all. That's typical of an edition change.
Yes, people switcing to the new edition want to sell the books they won't use. Shame on them. A lot of these books had also ... quality issues ... shall we say, so they would have been on Ebay anyways.
And then they had the WOTC print run, so they are plentiful enough to flood ebay anyways.
I didn’t go to Dartmouth…hell I didn’t go to college, but I still smell fish.
You smell fish and not cheese? Wow. I smell the kind of nasty limburger that gets under the Cheesemeister's foot in the cellar.
After 4.0 hits, anyone who elects to produce 3.5 products will be writing for a diminishing market - companies looking for long term survival can't focus entirely on something that will gradually cease to exist. Look how many players of red box/1E/2E still say, "I've got everything I need." Even if a sizable portion of the market doesn't immediately upgrade, nothing says they'll keep buying product.
You may find a couple companies that carve out a (small) niche for themselves by continuing support. However, the market will indeed shrink to almost nothing.
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It's a little crazy that they want you to pony up $5000 for the OGL sight unseen if you ask me. What if you hate it? $5000 down the crapper.
No offense, Nicolas. But I disagree. For a business, $5,000 may be a reasonable investment to stay ahead of the game curve. If Paizo ponies up $5K and isn't satisfied, it was R&D expense.
Of course, I don't know where Paizo's profit margin stands. So, whether $5,000 is a safe R&D expense I cannot say.
For a business, $5,000 may be a reasonable investment to stay ahead of the game curve. If Paizo ponies up $5K and isn't satisfied, it was R&D expense.
Absolutely. There are a lot of decisions that are on hold right now until Paizo gets a look at 4E. Paying $5,000 to be able to start making those decisions (either way) is a very good investment. It gets them out of limbo and moving toward what they are looking to do (either way).
Sean Mahoney
You guys are awfully free with other people's money. :)
Why don't you tell them how much each designer should get paid while you're at it.
(Psst - Lisa, give James Jacobs a raise - he designs cool stuff.) ;)
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You guys are awfully free with other people's money. :)
Hard to say so, given that we really don't have any control over people's money, when those "people" are incorporated entities, unless you want to count by how we support the company by making purchases.
Honestly, I don't know how well Paizo is doing. From what I understand, the company's doing pretty well. If I understand "pretty well" correctly, that means that the company is pulling a profit. If it's pulling a profit, then a R&D expense to see what looms with 4e is reasonable ... assuming the Paizo doesn't fear its profit would automatically suffer should it switch to 4e.
EDIT: You know, some were surprised that Wolfgang's Open Design contribution based fundraiser for the $5000.00 License was met so quickly...(If you didn't know readers, people donated to help Wolfgang Baur raise money for the license for Open Design, and the top twenty contributors will be considered freelancer members of Open Design and therefore able to sign the NDA under Wolfgang's purview and get look at it with him. He raised the money in days.)
...but chipping in with Wolfgang might have been the only way for some freelancers to get a look at it (under $5000), and not be left out in the cold.
Do you think some small-time publishers might be on that list, too? It's better than getting in on the full 5k. I mean even Wolfgang doesn't want to throw in the full 5k himself.
I was under the impression that Wolfgang Bauer had already raised the $5K through Open Design.
Well, maybe Wolfgang can look over the shoulders of those folks at Paizo?
Something tells me that would seriously violate any NDA that Paizo would have signed with WotC.
I expect anything Paizo develops for 4e launch will be done by authors "in-house" as opposed to free-lancers. Don't want to spend $5k and then walk away with nothing because of an NDA violation.
Greg
Well, maybe Wolfgang can look over the shoulders of those folks at Paizo?Something tells me that would seriously violate any NDA that Paizo would have signed with WotC.
I expect anything Paizo develops for 4e launch will be done by authors "in-house" as opposed to free-lancers. Don't want to spend $5k and then walk away with nothing because of an NDA violation.
Greg
I think that a large number of Paizo's regular freelancers already have a copy of the 4e rules. Greg Vaughan is already working on a 4e adventure.
I think that a large number of Paizo's regular freelancers already have a copy of the 4e rules. Greg Vaughan is already working on a 4e adventure.
LoL... I didn't think of that. Many of their freelancers will likely have a better idea about 4E prior to Paizo as they will be producing products for Wizards of the Coast as well.
Sean Mahoney
I think that a large number of Paizo's regular freelancers already have a copy of the 4e rules. Greg Vaughan is already working on a 4e adventure.
If they are working directly for WotC? Then, yeah, they probably have seen them. But if not, then they will either have to pony up the $5k themselves or wait until the books are released in June like everybody else. I doubt than an NDA would let Paizo show the OGL to freelancers.
Greg
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I think that a large number of Paizo's regular freelancers already have a copy of the 4e rules. Greg Vaughan is already working on a 4e adventure.If they are working directly for WotC? Then, yeah, they probably have seen them. But if not, then they will either have to pony up the $5k themselves or wait until the books are released in June like everybody else. I doubt than an NDA would let Paizo show the OGL to freelancers.
Greg
Yeah I am sure that they can't show them the OGL but they might hint at weather it is worth paying the 5K for it.
If they are working directly for WotC? Then, yeah, they probably have seen them. But if not, then they will either have to pony up the $5k themselves or wait until the books are released in June like everybody else. I doubt than an NDA would let Paizo show the OGL to freelancers.
Greg
While I meant that a number of the regular Paizo freelancers are also WoTC freelancers and thus have access to the draft 4e rules, it is my understanding from the OGL conference call that companies could share the rules with their freelancers (though there are only 3, non-copyable set of rules per company), but that their freelancers would be under the same NDA restrictions as the actual companies.
You have to sign an NDA just to see the OGL???
Which also means that once we see it, we can't tell you about it. So, if, for example, we find it too restrictive to allow us to do what we want to do, we won't be able to tell you exactly why. We're going to do our best to keep you all in the loop with where we are, but sometimes, you're just going to have to trust us even if we can't tell you why we're doing what we're doing.
You're reading it right now, aren't you.
NDA, grumble, grumble.
I still believe that 4.0 is inevitable. Trying to stick with 3.5 or trying to work a 3.P would be the same as all those other lesser known systems and independents out there.
Do you really think Paizo could make a stand against the rest of the industry?
While I meant that a number of the regular Paizo freelancers are also WoTC freelancers and thus have access to the draft 4e rules, it is my understanding from the OGL conference call that companies could share the rules with their freelancers (though there are only 3, non-copyable set of rules per company), but that their freelancers would be under the same NDA restrictions as the actual companies.
I read a little bit that was on Enworld about the conference call, and didn't get this impression, but it's very possible that I missed this tidbit. It's a bit surprising, as in my business (high-tech space biz) it's my understanding that when you sign an NDA you're not allowed to share the info with anyone, outside of your company, period. So I'm a little surprised that an NDA would be this flexible. I would expect that WotC would want to have complete control over who sees it and who doesn't, but maybe they allow freelancers to see it. I would think that maybe the company would then have to report back to WotC and at least let them know who they've shown the info to, so that WotC knows who is covered.
It doesn't seem like an NDA makes much sense if WotC doesn't know who's actually seen the OGL. Just my opinion.
Greg
Trollsmyth beat me to it!
This is over at the 4th edition FAQ at ENWorld, from the conference call:
5. Under Phase One, how are rules distributed to freelancers?
A company’s NDA covers their agents and contractors. As such, any freelancer for a publisher is legally bound by their NDA. The pre-release rules will be three copies of a physical document (although WotC is flexible on the quantity, and may provide more copies if necessary.) Companies working together as partners only pay one fee.
So yes, companies that get involved in the early release program can bring in freelancers, and these freelancers would be bound by the NDA.
- Brian
I stand (or rather sit) corrected.
My bad.
(I'm still a bit surprised, but then it ain't my business, so they can do what they want!)
Greg