Will Paizo be signing up for the $5K OGL Designer’s Kit from WotC?


4th Edition

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Liberty's Edge

Wow. That must be how Chuck Barris felt when he joined the CIA.


DeadDMWalking wrote:


I'm confident in the market for 3.x (otherwise sales for the current products would not be so strong) and I'm confident that Paizo will stick by their loyal customers. I can only imagine how quickly they change their mind if they do switch to 4th edition and start getting cancellation after cancellation....

These aren't the droids you're looking for...


Third of Five wrote:
DeadDMWalking wrote:


I'm confident in the market for 3.x (otherwise sales for the current products would not be so strong) and I'm confident that Paizo will stick by their loyal customers. I can only imagine how quickly they change their mind if they do switch to 4th edition and start getting cancellation after cancellation....
These aren't the droids you're looking for...

Smurf


On the other hand, if Paizo, doesn't switch, and the 4th edition rules turn out to be so much more fun to run for DM's that more and more games switch to them, they may see a slower but invitably growing number of cancellations as people switch to 4th edition and don't feel like paying for product they need to convert. I don't envy Paizo's situation. I think the 4th edition rules are more likely than not going to be pretty good. I may be wrong. In any case, aside from how good the rules are, there may be restrictions on the license that may make it painful for third party publishers. I have really enjoyed Paizo's adventures, so whatever they decide, I wish them luck and hope they will be successful and be an influence on D&D for many years to come.


DeadDMWalking wrote:

but I'm confident in the market for 3.x (otherwise sales for the current products would not be so strong) and I'm confident that Paizo will stick by their loyal customers. I can only imagine how quickly they change their mind if they do switch to 4th edition and start getting cancellation after cancellation....

honestly nothing could make me cancel my subscription faster then an announced change of pathfinder to 4e.

Scarab Sages

Heathansson wrote:
When they ask for the five g's, tell them, "I'll give ya tree fitty."

It was the Loch Ness monster!

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Lisa & the team,

I appreciate all the communication with the fans, and keeping us in the loop on what is going on. The interaction on the message boards is wonderful.

With that said, I am full confident that you will make the right decision. I am actually hoping that you are able to take advantage of the early offer and make it worth while.

Keep us in the loop!

Cheers!


cwslyclgh wrote:
honestly nothing could make me cancel my subscription faster then an announced change of pathfinder to 4e.

I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Did somebody say something about customers being loyal to Paizo, or about Paizo being loyal to their customers? Apples to apples and all that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
We're going to do our best to keep you all in the loop with where we are, but sometimes, you're just going to have to trust us even if we can't tell you why we're doing what we're doing.

So we shouldn't ask you about those photos of you and Mike McArtor dressed in drag..we should just trust that it was for good reason? :)


The way I see it, if Paizo decides 4E is a sound system, takes the game to a new level, and allows them to do what they want to do with their products, they'll switch to 4E. If they decide it's poorly designed, needlessly restrains their offerings, and/or will not be received well by the market, they'll stay 3.5E. Either way, I look forward to buying Pathfinder, Chronicles, and GameMastery offerings as long as I can afford it.


Coridan wrote:
What if WE don't want to make the switch and you're already geared up for a 4th ed Second Darkness?

The problem is that it is guaranteed that part of Paizo's audience will want to stay with 3.5 and part of them will want to switch over to 4.0. Some will want to switch but wait a little while and others will want to immediately switch. Some are still made that 2nd ed. AD&D isn't being used.

The point is that they can't make everyone happy. They will need to make a choice based on a) what they think fits their vision of a good game and a good product the best and b) where they think the market will go.

I personally would be very shocked, despite all the hate you see on the internet, if the vast majority of people haven't switched by the 1 yr aniversary of 4.0... but it will be a process. It was very much the same thing with 3.0... lots of hate and most people switched and liked it.

Sean Mahoney

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Well now that the forgotten realms are officially ruined and part Eberron, part Dragonlance.. oh and 94 years in the future.. I'll be looking for something to play in 4E.. or material to use in 3.5.. so whichever edition Paizo goes is good for me.

I just know I'll not be too happy and will avoid playing 4E Realms.


DangerDwarf wrote:
Actually, Conan whupped step 5.

I think we can all agree that Wesley Willis whupped Conan, Batman and step 5. Seriously, break out the WWWWW? wrist bands.


SirUrza wrote:

Pathfinder Sales are higher than initial estimates. (I cite Paizo staff who have made that comment here on the boards)

That means the market is watching Paizo. People are buying. People are interested. Some of the spotlight is here and now.

Erik and Lisa, and Company have to weigh the relative value of keeping the market watching Paizo.

And being able to compete with Forgotten Realms aint no small thing. That means you're at the "Big Kid Table."

It is much easier to compete with the Realms when the designers have shot it in the kneecaps.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I'll stick with paizo if I only have to get the core books and paizo doesn't blow up Golarion like WoTC is blowing up the Realms.

Dark Archive Contributor

SirUrza wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
We're going to do our best to keep you all in the loop with where we are, but sometimes, you're just going to have to trust us even if we can't tell you why we're doing what we're doing.
So we shouldn't ask you about those photos of you and Mike McArtor dressed in drag..we should just trust that it was for good reason? :)

Vic... SirUrza has seen too much. We must initiate Plan UC2: Eliminate SirUrza. Will commence in 5... 4... 3...


I will be waiting for an announcement or none depending. No matter the choice, I will stick by Paizo, they are the greatest thing to happen to RPGs since Cheeto's and Mountain Dew...

However I do have a fear of the WOTC 4e monster. I hated the fact that WOTC thought (and succeeded) that they could get more money out of me, with the release of 3.5. Now they are at it again.

Though no matter the path I will stick with Paizo. They have turned me into a willing brand-loyal ninja zombie...

2...


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber
Lisa Stevens wrote:

I can absolutely 100% guarantee that Paizo won't put out a rushed 4th edition product. I take very seriously our commitment to producing the best product that we can and won't allow that to slip to hit some artificial date. [...]

-Lisa

That´s what I´ve come to expect from paizo - doing what is best for your excellent products, while listening closely to your customers.

Stefan


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
We're going to do our best to keep you all in the loop with where we are, but sometimes, you're just going to have to trust us even if we can't tell you why we're doing what we're doing.

Thanks for pointing that out clearly. Now we can just wait impatiently ;-)

Stefan


Vic Wertz wrote:
chopswil wrote:
You have to sign an NDA just to see the OGL???
Which also means that once we see it, we can't tell you about it. So, if, for example, we find it too restrictive to allow us to do what we want to do, we won't be able to tell you exactly why. We're going to do our best to keep you all in the loop with where we are, but sometimes, you're just going to have to trust us even if we can't tell you why we're doing what we're doing.

Well, consider this: If you say that you will use 4e (for Second Darkness or for the one after that, doesn't matter), I will assume that you think it's possible to take 4e, remove all this New World Order crap they keep preaching, and have a good, old-school game of D&D with it.

One that contains druids and halforcs and gnomes, and elves that can grow to be 700 years old and do not necessarily live in trees.
A game where "dragonborn" are a tiny minority, and tieflings are still the girls and gals we came to like during D&Ds history.
I will assume that there will be succubi demons from the Abyss (or from wherever Golarion's demons come from) and erinyes devils from the Hells (and I hope that it will be The Seven Hells, one for every Sin :))

And I will assume that all this can be accomplished with nothing more than the 4e core books and whatever Paizo will release. That "You don't need to subscribe to DDI to play D&D" will still be true, and mean, "You can play D&D, with all the races and classes and flavour you came to expect and like during 3e and before, and never have to subscribe this DDI crap"


KaeYoss, I somewhat agree with your post. I agree Paizo, in evaluating whether to jump on 4th edition, should see if they can basically use it to produce "4th edition rules, 3rd edition feel!" products. The only caveat I would add is that they don't need to be limited to core books and Paizo products if Necromancer and other 3rd edition/OGL publishers produce classes, races and monsters that Paizo can use.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
zoroaster100 wrote:
The only caveat I would add is that they don't need to be limited to core books and Paizo products if Necromancer and other 3rd edition/OGL publishers produce classes, races and monsters that Paizo can use.

But they're doing that now and we don't have to buy the other books. As it happens, I already owned all five books they've announced as secondary sources and odds are good that I'll purchase any other products Piazo has evaluated and considers good enough to be source material for their world, but nobody has to buy other sources or subscribe to any on-line pay services. By my reading, that's all KaeYoss requested.

I'm not all enthusiastic about 4e, and I don't think I'm in WotC's target audience for the product. I do feel like part of Paizo's target audience, and if they produce an AP for 4e I'll buy it and play it, confident that they've done this only after determining that they can use these rules to make a game that I'll enjoy.

Dark Archive

"tbug' wrote:
confident that they've done this only after determining that they can use these rules to make a game that I'll enjoy.

That's one thing I think people are forgetting in all of this.

In every single game system I've ever played in, or ran there has been a HUGE variance in that system on how groups play and how those games feel.

I don't believe that somehow 4e will change this. I have complete confidence that Paizo, Necromancer Games, etc have the ability to make quality products with a feel that I'll enjoy regardless of system.


zoroaster100 wrote:
The only caveat I would add is that they don't need to be limited to core books and Paizo products if Necromancer and other 3rd edition/OGL publishers produce classes, races and monsters that Paizo can use.

Of course they don't have to be limited.

As long as we can enjoy Pathfinder without having to buy those books, I'm alright. It will probably even make me buy some of those books (like I bought the Advanced Bestiary after it was referenced in Pathfinder)

But you can rest assured that wizards will make it as hard as possible to use that material without buying the books (or website) it originates from.

And since we're not just talking about NPC options here (I want gnome PCs!), we'd need the write-up, not just a stat block of a gnome (to see where all the bonuses and maluses come from). If Paizo will be able to do their own gnomes and half-orcs and druids, it's fine.

But something tells me that wizards will try to prevent that.


tbug wrote:


I'm not all enthusiastic about 4e, and I don't think I'm in WotC's target audience for the product.

Me neither. But that's mainly because they seem to target people who are unconfortable using brains.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mactaka wrote:
I'll stick with paizo if I only have to get the core books and paizo doesn't blow up Golarion like WoTC is blowing up the Realms.

That's why Golarion comes pre-blown up!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mike McArtor wrote:
SirUrza wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
We're going to do our best to keep you all in the loop with where we are, but sometimes, you're just going to have to trust us even if we can't tell you why we're doing what we're doing.
So we shouldn't ask you about those photos of you and Mike McArtor dressed in drag..we should just trust that it was for good reason? :)
Vic... SirUrza has seen too much. We must initiate Plan UC2: Eliminate SirUrza. Will commence in 5... 4... 3...

But I didn't get UC1 yet!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Heaven's Agent wrote:
The way I see it, if Paizo decides 4E is a sound system, takes the game to a new level, and allows them to do what they want to do with their products, they'll switch to 4E. If they decide it's poorly designed, needlessly restrains their offerings, and/or will not be received well by the market, they'll stay 3.5E. Either way, I look forward to buying Pathfinder, Chronicles, and GameMastery offerings as long as I can afford it.

That's a good way to put it.

Dark Archive

KaeYoss wrote:
tbug wrote:


I'm not all enthusiastic about 4e, and I don't think I'm in WotC's target audience for the product.
Me neither. But that's mainly because they seem to target people who are unconfortable using brains.

Use smaller words please. You're confusing poor dumb me.

Spoiler:
You spelled uncomfortable wrong.

Spoiler:
Or that is what I've been told. You know, dumb me can't spell and all. I'm uncomfortable using my brain.

Spoiler:
;P

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
Vic... SirUrza has seen too much. We must initiate Plan UC2: Eliminate SirUrza. Will commence in 5... 4... 3...
But I didn't get UC1 yet!

Ah ha! You guys got nothing.. but a hot sorceress and a cute elf with too many knives.. nevermind.. you win.


KaeYoss wrote:
Me neither. But that's mainly because they seem to target people who are unconfortable using brains.

(mashes totem drop key-bindings)

Somebody get me a Warlock to kite this one! We need DOTs and I need a buff!

You don't need brains, all you need is an improved UI Mod!


I just want to be clear that you guys are being fairly offensive to those of us who are actually looking forward to 4e... but whatever... wouldn't want politeness to get in the way of your bashing.

Sean Mahoney


Sean Mahoney wrote:
I just want to be clear that you guys are being fairly offensive to those of us who are actually looking forward to 4e

No, I'm not. I'm not the one who states that he thinks that roleplayers are too dumb for simple maths.

I never said said that I think that all 4e-lovers are dumb, or that all roleplayers are dumb. I just note that wizards keeps saying that stuff, even simple stuff like Power Attack, is too complicated for their fans, and so they are getting rid of it.

Big difference there.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Sean Mahoney wrote:

I just want to be clear that you guys are being fairly offensive to those of us who are actually looking forward to 4e... but whatever... wouldn't want politeness to get in the way of your bashing.

Sean Mahoney

On some level I agree with you, Sean. I am not necessarily even looking forward towards 4e, but so much of the vehemence that drives me away from paying attention to threads that deal with it comes from anti-4e people. To be honest, all the 4e bashing makes me sympathize with the 4th edition more . . . My mom must have been wrong, I really am true neutral.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

As a quick postscript, I am not saying that people should stop bashing 4e . . .do what you want it is no big deal. Just in general I see more "fanboy" reaction against it than I do legitimate, thought-out arguments. That fact is a little depressing.

Every now and then a level-headed statement makes it through in a thread here and there, but the vast majority of it is "WOTC is sooo stupid, they are treating us like children. If we wanted to play WoW we'd play WoW . . .etc"

In a completely impartial light, yes they are taking some of the math away, but I don't recall them ever saying that it is because we are too stupid to use math(this argument is not even a valid rebuttal, because WoTC knows thousands have been playing 3.5); in truth, I have only seen them stress the math part because they want to speed up the game.

and i'm done.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

If I wanted to play WoW.. there's a d20 version of it. :P


Hi Sean,

My name is Jim Groves, and I posted as Mammon the Hasbro Vice President. Mammon is my joke avatar, and I post under that name when I'm not being very serious. This is my every day 'normal' avatar. I'd like to respond to your post in the serious manner with which it calls for...

And for the record, you can see this by checking my profile. You may know this already, but I'm pointing it out just in case.

I'm only speaking for myself, but I do take most of the responsibility for the posts that have irritated you in this thread. Mine was the closest to actual 4th Edition bashing. Having said that, I'd like to discuss it.

For a start, I'm going to touch on how I really feel about 4th edition, and then respond directly to your post.

I ‘indirectly’ support 4th edition, but not without reluctance, hesitation, and at times some mild frustration. Changing to a new edition is going to no small financial burden. There is going to be a learning curve, which is something that's a challenge for me, because I only just got the hang of 3.5. Finally, the parceling out of information doesn't get me excited, it only makes me inpatient and sick of it. WOTC’s marketing may very well attract some new consumers, but it's had an adverse effect on me at times.

Even still, there are a lot of potential positive changes that I'm actually interested in seeing. I'd love to see some improvements for low level spellcasters, and an overall increase in efficiency of the game.

I say I "indirectly" support 4th Edition, because I have informally committed myself to continue to buy Pathfinder and GameMastery products should Paizo switch over to 4th Edition. When polled, I was one of the first on this board to say "I'm in it for the campaign setting, and so long as the rules allow the campaign setting to function, I will allow that campaign setting to determine which rules I use." That's a reverse of the traditional paradigm, where people pick their mechanics and then look at what campaign setting they can use with them. I'm not fond of fanboism, but I take pride in this decision because I, and people like me, allow Paizo the greatest freedom and latitude in deciding what's best for the Product Line. With me, they're safe in considering 4th Edition, and they're safe in remaining with 3.5.

So the fact that I would consider buying a PHB, DMG, and a Monster Manual to play 4th Edition Pathfinder products (should they ACTUALLY EVER EXIST, because that’s not a foregone conclusion), makes me indirectly supportive of 4th edition. Earlier in this very thread I was in a dialogue with SirUzra, more of less advocating that should the OGL meet with Paizo's Quality Control standards, they should definitely pony up the 5,000 and get a license.

And Vic Wertz will be quick to point out that there are "if's" in that process that need to be reconciled first. They have to be comfortable with 4th edition before making that leap. Since I'm staying with Pathfinder no matter what edition, it doesn't matter much to me.

**************************

Okay, now that I've commented on how I really stand on the subject, I'm going to reply back to your post.

I regret that I offended you, that wasn't my intention. If that sounds like a 'qualified apology', then you're hearing it correctly. I'm not sorry I made the wisecrack, but I am sorry that it had a negative effect on you.

And I'm not going to justify what I said. It was snarky wisecrack likening 4th edition to World of Warcraft, with a side order of satire towards Hasbro and my perception of their values regarding sales versus quality.

The "4th Edition: Joshua Frost versus Vomit Guy(s)" debacle didn't go unnoticed by me, and I appreciate that you wouldn't want to see a serious conversation derailed. At the same time, people are going to vent and give their feedback. So long as they aren't silencing others, there needs to be tolerance on both sides. And I'm not responsible for all the many other people who made a negative 4th edition comment on these boards or somewhere else.

Nevertheless, I'll lay off for the rest of this thread, and maybe the next couple after that. However, I can't promise to abandon my sense of humor or satire.

My concern Sean, is that what I'm hearing from you is "When you make fun of 4th Edition, it hurts me, because I like it and I'm excited about it." With respect, you're taking that burden upon yourself. No one was making fun of Sean. No one was saying Sean is dumb for liking 4th edition. You've personalized this so that your identity and your self-esteem takes a hit when others poke fun of WOTC. That is setting yourself up for an awful lot of heartache. I feel you need to step up and have some faith in your own convictions, and your own opinions, and don't worry about it if I crack a joke. Believe in yourself, because if that Mammon post made you angry, you're giving me way too much power.

Cheer up, odds are Paizo will likely be able to work with 4th edition, and many of us will have a lot of fun with their products.. and this exchange between you and I? This will be just a forgotten memory lost on a message board archive.

Until we know more, I wish you no hard feelings.

Jim Groves / Watcher


The Last Rogue wrote:

As a quick postscript, I am not saying that people should stop bashing 4e . . .do what you want it is no big deal. Just in general I see more "fanboy" reaction against it than I do legitimate, thought-out arguments. That fact is a little depressing.

Every now and then a level-headed statement makes it through in a thread here and there, but the vast majority of it is "WOTC is sooo stupid, they are treating us like children. If we wanted to play WoW we'd play WoW . . .etc"

There's a certain amount of marketing fatigue that plays a role in this reaction.

Look at me, I'm not 100% dead fast opposed to 4th edition. I definitely have not threatened to cancel my subscriptions should Paizo decide to adopt 4th edition rules... and yet I've made fun of 4th edition.

That's marketing fatigue at work, and in comparison, you see it with presidential election campaigns.

Without an MBA or a marketing degree, I'm not prepared to say how WOTC could have handled this better. Perhaps it was announced too soon? The selling of preview books felt threatening and seemed to validate concerns that they're designing it to more of a continual money drain? Could be any number of factors. Whatever the cause, if the goal was to create excitement and anticipation, something went wrong in energizing at least a significant portion of the consumer base.

You mentioned in your first post that all the 4th edition bashing made you sympathic to the new edition? That's fine if it does. There seems to be this undercurrent in the Pro-4th edition comments that suggests they're fearful of the Anti-4th ED are somehow trying to convince them not to like it when they actually do. I don't see that as being done deliberately. I do see people who are tired, and getting crabby. It will be close to year since it was announced before anyone can buy it, that's a long time to get strung out about a new product.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Sean Mahoney wrote:
I just want to be clear that you guys are being fairly offensive to those of us who are actually looking forward to 4e...

Hi Sean,

I apologize for any offense I may have given. I sincerely regret it if you felt I was in any way demeaning you.

My comment was that I don't think that I'm part of WotC's target audience for 4e, and I stand by that statement. This doesn't meant that I think badly of the people who are part of the target audience, just that I don't feel like part of that group.

In any case, I'm sorry for making you feel bad. We can continue this conversation in public or in private or let it drop; it's your call.


KaeYoss wrote:
But that's mainly because they seem to target people who are unconfortable using brains.

Yeah... I don't see how someone who is excited about 4e could find this objectionable at all, KaeYoss. Your point is well made.

I guess I must be "uncomfortable using brains."

Who knew... thanks for enlightening me in a non-offesive way.

Sean Mahoney


The Last Rogue wrote:
I am not necessarily even looking forward towards 4e,

Which is absolutely fine. No one expects you to accept it blindly or for 100% of people to like it. But that is a far cry from the people who are actually attacking the people they feel it is aimed at.

Sean Mahoney


Watcher,

I appreciate the well thought out and articulate post. I am very aware of your record here on the boards and that the avatar you posted under is a joke avatar used to be snarky. No worries there.

I even realize that KaeYos did not intend to attack anyone other than WotC with his comment as well... but the fact is that comments about the intended audience and people who are excited or like the idea of 4e somehow don't use there brains IS an offensive comment and is NOT directed at the things that you are frusterated about (ie. WotC, Hasbro, decisions being made about 4e, the idea that you have to spend more money, etc., etc., etc.).

My personal feelings were not really hurt here, but I did take some offense because the attacks stopped being about what you don't like and went on to be about the people who do like them. I want you to be aware of that.

Watcher wrote:
I appreciate that you wouldn't want to see a serious conversation derailed. At the same time, people are going to vent and give their feedback. So long as they aren't silencing others, there needs to be tolerance on both sides.

Agreed. I would contend that saying that the people this is targeted to crosses this line. It was no longer attacking the company but those people who support the product.

Watcher wrote:
And I'm not responsible for all the many other people who made a negative 4th edition comment on these boards or somewhere else.

I know your not, and I won't hold anything against you (even the above comments since I KNOW you had no intention of being offensive... it just was). Nor do I think people who don't like 4e edition should feel they can't freely vent or complain about it. I just think that when attacks move from what they are railing agains to other people then that crosses the line of respect.

Watcher wrote:
Nevertheless, I'll lay off for the rest of this thread, and maybe the next couple after that. However, I can't promise to abandon my sense of humor or satire.

Please do NOT lay off expressing your opinion... just take a breath for a sec and ask yourself if it is attacking someone you didn't intend it to.

Watcher wrote:
My concern Sean, is that what I'm hearing from you is "When you make fun of 4th Edition, it hurts me, because I like it and I'm excited about it." With respect, you're taking that burden upon yourself. No one was making fun of Sean. No one was saying Sean is dumb for liking 4th edition. You've personalized this so that your identity and your self-esteem takes a hit when others poke fun of WOTC. That is setting yourself up for an awful lot of heartache. I feel you need to step up and have some faith in your own convictions, and your own opinions, and don't worry about it if I crack a joke. Believe in yourself, because if that Mammon post made you angry, you're giving me way too much power.

I am not saying the above at all. You making fun of 4e is in no way personal to me. You saying that the people who like it don't need brains at all... that is crossing the line IMO. That said, I am still not taking it personally... I am just not the type of person who lets people attack others and let it pass. ESPECIALLY when I KNOW that the people being attacked weren't the intended targets and it was just someone venting.

Watcher wrote:
Until we know more, I wish you no hard feelings.

There are certainly none on my part now or even when I posted my earlier comment. I just want to point (and will continue to do so) when people cross the line and attack people rather than those things they are upset about.

All that said, I do stay out of the areas that are just vent sessions (like the entire 4e section of these boards which is too bad since I would love to have some real conversations... but people need to vent and so aren't interested in letting others do that... oh well, our loss as a community), so I am not likely to call anyone out there... but I will if I see it elsewhere.

Sean Mahoney


Watcher wrote:
That's marketing fatigue at work, and in comparison, you see it with presidential election campaigns.

Just out of curiousity, do you really want to compare how you and others have reacted to how dispicable people can act (on both sides) in a presidential campaign?!? Heck, I didn' think it was THAT bad ;P.

Watcher wrote:
Without an MBA or a marketing degree, I'm not prepared to say how WOTC could have handled this better. Perhaps it was announced too soon? The selling of preview books felt threatening and seemed to validate concerns that they're designing it to more of a continual money drain? Could be any number of factors. Whatever the cause, if the goal was to create excitement and anticipation, something went wrong in energizing at least a significant portion of the consumer base.

No argument here, it was poor marketing.

That said, I do find the comment about the continual money drain very funny. At what point in the history of Dungeon & Dragons did more and more products NOT come out that we as hobbyists wanted to purchase. My shelf of 3.5 products is quite large. I just finally got rid of the horde-loads of 2nd ed. books I had. Nothing new there, but somehow people don't like it if it is recognized and talked about. I guess to me I see that they are planning on providing EXACTLY the service that people who buy RPGs actually want and their purchase history shows it. The game has always been playable with just the base stuff, but we always want and buy more. Good on them for seeing that and meeting the market need. I hope it is a successful endeavor. (The secret is that is not BAD if companies make money... especially if they are making what you want!!!)

Watcher wrote:
I do see people who are tired, and getting crabby. It will be close to year since it was announced before anyone can buy it, that's a long time to get strung out about a new product.

Fair point... I guess it just sucks that people being crabby means that people who aren't crabby can't talk about it (and this is fine, but see the 4e forums on this boards... tough to have a real conversation there... it is a hate fest).

It just sucks to see the same thing happen over again that happened during the 3e transition. People are acting the same... heck, even most of the arguments are exactly the same. Anyway... I guess what has disappointed me most is how people on the Paizo boards used to be a community that would listen to and respect each other... I see that has been lost on several parts of this board... there is a sticky from Lisa Stevens in the 4e talking about needing moderators... all this is very sad to me.

Sean Mahoney


tbug wrote:
My comment was that I don't think that I'm part of WotC's target audience for 4e, and I stand by that statement. This doesn't meant that I think badly of the people who are part of the target audience, just that I don't feel like part of that group.

Tbug,

Nothing you said was in anyway offensive. You not thinking you are their target audience is just fine. If you also had said you felt they were off base in what their target audience should be that would be fine. The problem came when people said they felt the target audience didn't like using their brains.

I don't think anyone should feel bad about stating their opinion, I just don't think that being frusterated or crabby gives them a free pass at taking shots at other people.

Sean Mahoney


I am capable of doing complex math, but I would far rather spend my time, and have my players spend their time, roleplaying or otherwise having fun. I am sure for some doing tons of math at the game table may be fun, but for me it is rather tedious. Actually, high level third edition games don't really have complex math, but rather just lengthy and tedious addition and subtraction, with occasional multiplication and division. That kind of tedious math is not fun when you have to do it for most characters' and monsters' actions in combat. I hope fourth edition minimizes that somewhat. I still don't know if the end result of the fourth edition rules will be a fun game, but if it is, I hope Paizo will consider using the rules for at least some of their products.


The recent podcast; They said something like that there won't be spells or items that modify ability scores (too much paperwork)!.

Too much paper work!(So no more Bullstrength, Giant strength belts etc...

That is dumbing it down, sorry!


Sean Mahoney wrote:
Just out of curiousity, do you really want to compare how you and others have reacted to how dispicable people can act (on both sides) in a presidential campaign?!? Heck, I didn' think it was THAT bad ;P.

No, no, I meant that individuals voters get sick of the campaigning. Get sick of the melodrama, the self-promotion

Sean Mahoney wrote:

No argument here, it was poor marketing.

That said, I do find the comment about the continual money drain very funny. At what point in the history of Dungeon & Dragons did more and more products NOT come out that we as hobbyists wanted to purchase. My shelf of 3.5 products is quite large. I just finally got rid of the horde-loads of 2nd ed. books I had. Nothing new there, but somehow people don't like it if it is recognized and talked about. I guess to me I see that they are planning on providing EXACTLY the service that people who buy RPGs actually want and their purchase history shows it. The game has always been playable with just the base stuff, but we always want and buy more. Good on them for seeing that and meeting the market need. I hope it is a successful endeavor. (The secret is that is not BAD if companies make money... especially if they are making what you want!!!)

Eeeh.. You make a good counter-point. They've always made a product if they could sell it.

I guess what I was referring to was intentional packaging to ensure future sales. Moneytizing? I've heard that word before used in reference to this. The Digital Tabletop as a venue to sell digital minitures. Witholding classes that have traditionally been in core books to release in future books? The Digital Tabletop especially rubs me raw, because I don't object to paying for tech support and server usage, and so on because those are real expenses that need to be subsidized by someone. But Digital Minitures? That sounds to me like they've come up with a basic cool product, where the focus shifts from empowering and enabling people to play together from different locations, to using it as an venue to sell more stuff. More services to allow for more fees. That smacks of a collectible card game, and that's a turn off for me.

I don't (and can't disagree) with you that if WOTC could sell it, they did. But there is a difference between selling new supplemental (ergo optional) material, and strategically setting to making the base product require future purchases. If you call me to provide specifics, I'll probably come up short, but this has been the vibe I've been getting off of this and other communities.

To change the subject, in reference to your not being able to discuss 4th edition in this community, which used to be so cool... I'm not going to disagree with you. Surprise! And when I stop clowing around with fake avatars making WoW jokes, I am sincerely sympathetic. I can see where it would be really frustrating. There are customers and posters on this board who have an agenda, no doubt about it. For whatever (completely valid for them) reason, they don't want see the change.. or they accept it only begrudgingly. Many would like to outright stop Paizo from making the switch, and have promised to end their patronage if it happens. There's nothing wrong with them doing that (it's their money and their decision), but it does create a negative atmosphere..

I can't change it, but I can validate that it's probably frustrating for you and others, and it's not your imagination.

Although.. I think things will improve around here once the decision is made, one way or another. It's the "not knowing" that drives this poster politicking. The chance that it "might not happen". Once we get past that, people might be willing to engage 4th Edition for what it is, and not what it might be.

Unfortunately, we're going to have a period of 'radio silence' from Paizo as they analyze the OGL. That is a legal necessity.

Once Paizo can speak, I don't think they will hesitate to do so- just to release the tension. Then there will be a brief intense outcry (from one side or the other), and then I think you'll see the tenor of the board go back to the way it used to be Sean.

Since I'm here either way, 4th edition or 3.5, I'll gladly share my popcorn with you until that day.


Watcher,

I think you are spot on in most of your analysis there, with the exception of perhaps WotC's 'moneytizing,' since it is what they (and every other company) have been doing all along (look at the complete series?!?!). But that said, you are still spot on with how people are perceiving the fact that they are saying that is their plan out loud. Somehow it is ok for them to keep saying once a month, "Hey we just thought of some more stuff to add! Buy it!" but not "We will continue to think up new stuff to add and sell it to you just like your purchasing habits have shown us you like! But it!"

<Sigh> But perception is reality and because of the bad marketing of this whole thing the perception from many people is that they are just money grubbing and they are reacting as such. Throw that in with the fact that WotC is unapologetically moving a bunch of peoples cheese (so to speak) and I understand the reactions... just don't like em.

Watcher wrote:
Then there will be a brief intense outcry (from one side or the other), and then I think you'll see the tenor of the board go back to the way it used to be Sean.

I can't tell you how much I hope that you are right... it just hasn't been my experience.

When the sale from TSR to WotC was announced several years ago the outcry in the various forums was huge. When the announcement that they were coming out with 3rd ed. came quickly after that it sure kept the issues going. The arguments were almost identicle to what we are hearing now about 4e with the one exception that people said they were trying to turn it into a CCG instead of an MMO... just whatever is popular and not D&D.

At the time I was an active participant on a mailing list for the Forgotten Realms. Up to that point the community there was awsome, intelligent discussions, understanding that people can disagree with one another and still be polite, letting other people talk about things and just not participating if it didn't intrest you... the whole bit. We also had many industry insiders who would regularly participate and listen to what we said. People like Sean K Reynolds, and Ed Greenwood would often read and respond to our emails.

But the change in attitude happened during the shift to 3e just like I am seeing here. The cognizant discussions stopped, the insiders were insulted and driven away (Sean Reynolds has a pretty hot temper so that flared fast and hot), and the community never really came back in my opinion. Maybe enough people, like me, left and it was later reborn... I don't know.

Since then Paizo was the first place I saw this type of mature community. I don't want to see the same type of thing happen here. The staff really listens and responds to all of us here but if they start getting attacked by one side or other once they make a decision on which way to go, that could stop when coming on here is something they don't look forward to. The great help and work I have seen for the various campaigns could go out the window when people snipe at each other because their great addition to the game was in the wrong edition for another poster.

<sigh> Maybe I am just being the negative one now... but I don't want to see it all happen again just like it did then (with the same arguments even!).

Sean Mahoney


Sean Mahoney wrote:

I can't tell you how much I hope that you are right... it just hasn't been my experience.

When the sale from TSR to WotC was announced several years ago the outcry in the various forums was huge. When the announcement that they were coming out with 3rd ed. came quickly after that it sure kept the issues going. The arguments were almost identicle to what we are hearing now about 4e with the one exception that people said they were trying to turn it into a CCG instead of an MMO... just whatever is popular and not D&D.

At the time I was an active participant on a mailing list for the Forgotten Realms. Up to that point the community there was awsome, intelligent discussions, understanding that people can disagree with one another and still be polite, letting other people talk about things and just not participating if it didn't intrest you... the whole bit. We also had many industry insiders who would regularly participate and listen to what we said. People like Sean K Reynolds, and Ed Greenwood would often read and respond to our emails.

But the change in attitude happened during the shift to 3e just like I am seeing here. The cognizant discussions stopped, the insiders were insulted and driven away (Sean Reynolds has a pretty hot temper so that flared fast and hot), and the community never really came back in my opinion. Maybe enough people, like me, left and it was later reborn... I don't know.

Since then Paizo was the first place I saw this type of mature community. I don't want to see the same type of thing happen here. The staff really listens and responds to all of us here but if they start getting attacked by one side or other once they make a decision on which way to go, that could stop when coming on here is something they don't look forward to. The great help and work I have seen for the various campaigns could go out the window when people snipe at each other because their great addition to the game was in the wrong edition for another poster.

<sigh> Maybe I am just being the negative one now... but I don't want to see it all happen again just like it did then (with the same arguments even!).

Well..

Hmmm...

You make a compelling case for toning down snarky comedy, and trying to have an open mind. (Which I am trying to do)

I wasn't involved in the game at that time, and I take your word on what happened to that community. Sad.

I certainly wouldn't like to see that happen here.


Tobus Neth wrote:

The recent podcast; They said something like that there won't be spells or items that modify ability scores (too much paperwork)!.

Too much paper work!(So no more Bullstrength, Giant strength belts etc...

That is dumbing it down, sorry!

I was shocked by this as well until I thought back to my own games I have been running and realised they are right. Things that change the ability scores are a big pain in play. Things get slowed down as my players are trying to adjust for all sorts of things... ok, I have a bonus str from this, but this spell took 2 off and this other affect is giving me a bonus to hit but not all the other things that str does... it just gets crazy and in order to keep moving things along and not bogged down I often give them a number tell them that is their bonus this time and to figure it out during other peoples turns.

Think about a +/- 2 in Str and everything it affects:
- Bonus to Hit
- Bonus to Dmg
- Changes your carrying capacity (you did keep track of all your wgts, right?)
- Skills: Climb, Jump, and Swim

Things are far worse when you get into CON or DEX since these ripple out to far more skills. Dex has maxes based on the armor you are wearing. Both affect saving throws so they are adjusting those too.

Now none of that is HARD math to do. But when everyone around the table isn't great at the rules (and lets face it, most of us play with people who don't know they rules super well and really on the rest of us to help them), it gets to the point were often things are missed in the interest of getting the game moving.

Now, to be fair a magic item that adds these things is likely not applied on the fly, but if that mechanic is gone all together, I think the game WILL run faster and smoother. And if they can then 'reimagine' the item to make it give them same feel as it should, even better. With Bull's Strength for example, you could just change it to +2 to hit and dmg and it would do what 90% of people use it for and not have any of the above issues.

I am sorry... I don't think this is dumbing down. I think it is responding to the reality of what happens at gaming tables and making changes to avoid the less fun things. They aren't saying D&D players can't do copious amounts of simple arithmatic... they are saying that most of them don't enjoy it, so lets change things so people can get to the parts they like (like role-playing or combat or crazy cool athletics while running from a trap).

Sean Mahoney

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