Will Paizo be signing up for the $5K OGL Designer’s Kit from WotC?
The text below is pulled from the WotC website, just in case people are unaware of what the "OGL Designer's Kit" is-
"The first phase of the 4th Edition developer materials release will be marked by the January 2008 availability of the OGL Designer’s Kit. This kit is designed for independent publishers looking to obtain early access to 4th Edition rules in order to develop compatible products to release just after the 4th Edition launch. These publishers will pay a one-time fee of $5,000.00 USD for access to the OGL Designer’s Kit, which includes first looks at the 4th Edition rulebooks, the SRD, final galleys and more.
Developers purchasing the OGL Designer’s Kit will receive updated pre-publication versions of the 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons core rules through the time of launch. They will also receive the right to publish OGL products on August 1, 2008, five months earlier than the general public.".
And according to ENWorld (via their website):
"This kit will be available within a matter of weeks, as soon as several legal logistics are complete.".
I have no problem with waiting a week or two for an answer to the big question, but here's a relatively simple one you might be in a position to answer right now.
*IF* you guys decide to pony up the $5k, what would be the first Pathfinder AP to be published under the 4th Edition rules?
And a follow-up question that may be slightly less simple. If you went that route, is it likely this would mean anything else for Pathfinder, such as skipping a month to help make sure the first 4E AP was up to snuff?
It's a little crazy that they want you to pony up $5000 for the OGL sight unseen if you ask me. What if you hate it? $5000 down the crapper.
It's a little crazy that they want you to pony up $5000 for the OGL sight unseen if you ask me. What if you hate it? $5000 down the crapper.
It's $5000 for the SRD and Rulebooks and right to publish, not to see the OGL. It would be crazy to pay for a license like that before you even see it.
It's a little crazy that they want you to pony up $5000 for the OGL sight unseen if you ask me. What if you hate it? $5000 down the crapper.
According to the report on EnWorld publishers will at least get to take a look at the OGL before they have to pay the $5000 for the rules.
Phase One publishers who sign a NDA will have the opportunity to read the OGL before they pay the $5000 early licensing fee.
I didn’t go to Dartmouth…hell I didn’t go to college, but I still smell fish.
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It's a little crazy that they want you to pony up $5000 for the OGL sight unseen if you ask me. What if you hate it? $5000 down the crapper.According to the report on EnWorld publishers will at least get to take a look at the OGL before they have to pay the $5000 for the rules.
Phase One publishers who sign a NDA will have the opportunity to read the OGL before they pay the $5000 early licensing fee.
Yes, but the OGL is not the rules. The OGL just outlines what Paizo can do with the rules and what legal limitations there are on that usage. To read the rules you need to say bye-bye to $5000, whether you like 'em or not.
It's a little crazy that they want you to pony up $5000 for the OGL sight unseen if you ask me. What if you hate it? $5000 down the crapper.
I think they get a look at the OGL just for showing their interest... but can only see the actual rules once they pony up the cash.
The real value of this 5k is the answer to the question "Will Paizo make more than this selling 4e products ahead of the competition?"
The fact is that Paizo is a game company and they have an opportunity here to gain a significant portion of market share. I would strongly urge them to take this.
The other option is knowing now instead of in several months the direction their company will be going in so they can get that started.
This total cost is less than what they spend sending people to GenCon. $5k isn't that much for a business... though still not something to be spent frivolously.
Sean Mahoney
Here are Paizo's immediate steps as I understand them:
1) Paizo agrees in principle to look at the OGL (already done)
2) WotC has Paizo sign an NDA
3) WotC gives Paizo the OGL to preview
4) -IF- the OGL makes sense, then we pony up the five gees to get the rules
5) There is no step five
6) We playtest and study the rules to see if they make sense for us and our customer base
7) We come to a decision on our future with 4E
There are a lot of 'ifs' in there, but those are the steps we're taking. I should also add that these steps, theoretically, should all be happening in the next couple of weeks.
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Paying $5k would be a waste of money IMHO. Paizo isn't going to be ahead of the competition regardless of what people think.
Unless they do a couple of double months, AP2 doesn't concluded until AFTER 4E comes out. This means paying $5k just them start development on AP3 as a 4E AP... which doesn't release until July or August right? But that means they're rushing and doing little to no playtesting or experimenting.
Paying $5000 is the difference between have a rushed 4E AP in the summer or having a tuned 4E AP in the winter. If they go with a summer launch, they'll be competing with three 4E Forgotten Realms products and other major D20 publisher products that pay now (and rush to be the first to get stuff out.)
Edit: 3 realms products and changed some wording. Dang Watcher for quote me. :)
Paying $5k would be a waste of money.
Paizo isn't going to be ahead of the competition any case.
Unless they do a couple of double months, AP2 doesn't concluded until AFTER 4E comes out. This means paying $5k means they can start development on AP3 as a 4E AP... which doesn't release until July or August right?
Paying $5000 is the difference between have a 4E AP in the summer or having a 4E AP in the winter. If they go with a summer launch, they'll be competing with two 4E Forgotten Realms products and other major D20 publisher products that pay now.
It really depends how valuable it may be to do exactly what you've described in your last paragraph.
Pathfinder Sales are higher than initial estimates. (I cite Paizo staff who have made that comment here on the boards)
That means the market is watching Paizo. People are buying. People are interested. Some of the spotlight is here and now.
Erik and Lisa, and Company have to weigh the relative value of keeping the market watching Paizo.
And being able to compete with Forgotten Realms aint no small thing. That means you're at the "Big Kid Table."
(Edit: I loveing able to say 'watching' multiple times in my own post)
I'm not saying you're wrong Uzra, just that there is another side to consider.
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Paying $5k would be a waste of money IMHO. Paizo isn't going to be ahead of the competition regardless of what people think.
Unless they do a couple of double months, AP2 doesn't concluded until AFTER 4E comes out. This means paying $5k just them start development on AP3 as a 4E AP... which doesn't release until July or August right? But that means they're rushing and doing little to no playtesting or experimenting.
Paying $5000 is the difference between have a rushed 4E AP in the summer or having a tuned 4E AP in the winter. If they go with a summer launch, they'll be competing with three 4E Forgotten Realms products and other major D20 publisher products that pay now (and rush to be the first to get stuff out.)
James Jacobs and others have said that he has already spec-ed out the third Pathfinder series. It takes them more than 6 months to get projects this big rolling and in the works.
If the fourth Pathfinder series is to be 4e (I hope not) then getting the rules NOW makes perfect sense.
Do you want a slapped together product? WotC is already providing that. Paizo is a bit classier...
Paying $5k would be a waste of money IMHO. Paizo isn't going to be ahead of the competition regardless of what people think.
I have to wholeheartedly disagree here. Even if they decide to NOT go with 4e then they are ahead of the competition who is still putting plans on hold until they get a chance to make the choice. Having seen the rules and making a decision at all, either way, puts them ahead. Sticking thier heads in the sand because they don't like the idea of change is not a good way to go (nor is it what they are doing, see above).
Unless they do a couple of double months, AP2 doesn't concluded until AFTER 4E comes out. This means paying $5k just them start development on AP3 as a 4E AP... which doesn't release until July or August right? But that means they're rushing and doing little to no playtesting or experimenting.
They don't create these whole cloth the day they are shipped. They need to be working on them well prior to their actual release date. If they are going to know which whay they will go with Pathfinder AP 3... they need to know soon... very soon.
Paying $5000 is the difference between have a rushed 4E AP in the summer or having a tuned 4E AP in the winter. If they go with a summer launch, they'll be competing with three 4E Forgotten Realms products and other major D20 publisher products that pay now (and rush to be the first to get stuff out.)
I think every product that Paizo has made for a long time has probably felt very rushed to them... but I don't think they will sacrifice quality just to rush. Their track record certainly speaks to that.
You're right though... if they go with a summer lauch they will be competing. And that is a far better thing than just sitting out.
Sean Mahoney
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You're right though... if they go with a summer lauch they will be competing. And that is a far better thing than just sitting out.
Tell that to all the companies that went out of business when people weren't buying the 10 different d20 elf books that were on the market the first 6 months of 3E. Sure Paizo isn't making elf books, but my point should be clear.
True Watcher, but there's still the quality issue. If they shoot for summer, they have to learn a game system in a very short time. Sure the adventure will be fine. The lore will be unaffected, but will the encounters and such be up to par?
And it's 3 Realms products, not 2. :P
:D
Yes, there will be challenges, no doubt. I have no counter-argument.
I just look at James Jacobs. The guy doesn't take a day off, and he pours his heart and soul into his work. He looks after his customer base diligently. At the Pathfinder chat he's expressed that he worried if Pathfinder would be successful or not. He's intimated that he doesn't take it's current success for granted, but is relieved and happy that it is successful.
Paizo strikes me as not sitting on it's laurels. Not lazy. Not willing to settle.
Yeah.. it's going to be tough. It's going to be hard work. The payoff could be really high though.
We'll have to watch and see.
I think something else to consider is that Wizards has indicated that their initial line up will be heavier with adventures than what we have been seeing the last year or two. That means that Paizo will come into more direct competition with Wizards in this arena. Of course, I would hold that Paizo has the upper hand in this competition even when they use the same authors... look at the new Dungeon for proof.
Sean Mahoney
I think something else to consider is that Wizards has indicated that their initial line up will be heavier with adventures than what we have been seeing the last year or two. That means that Paizo will come into more direct competition with Wizards in this arena. Of course, I would hold that Paizo has the upper hand in this competition even when they use the same authors... look at the new Dungeon for proof.
That's a great point Sean. All the more reason to consider making the 5K investment, if the OGL is encouraging.
If WOTC has a more adventure heavy first few months, that attracts people to the WOTC campaign settings. Because people do love campaign settings, that's even more incentive to make sure any other company's campaign setting (like Paizo's Pathfinder) is not forgotten.
Got a shiney new corebook and you want to use it? Well.. you can play in FR.. or... maybe Pathfinder?
You see, these smaller companies don't necessarily have a campaign setting to promote and publish. A good offense makes a fine defense, particularly in carving up consumer attention.
If the OGL doesn't suck of course.
I love Cosmo. You're my favorite demented possessed doll.
The two cents I'd like to throw in regarding some of the above comments. Some say that paying the 5k isn't worth it to Paizo because of the anticipated release schedule on this AP or that AP . .
Well, While the Pathfinder Adventure Paths are all well and good, They aren't the only product that PAizo puts out. I would assume that there are other products that they may or may not tell us about aside from the actual adventure paths that could be 4e material, assuming they choose to go down that path (I know, it's a large assumption until they actually look at the rules.)
At this point, for what it's worth, I fully support Paizo's decision to at least look at the OGL to determine whether or not it's worth their effort to fork over the 5k. I've trusted the big purple golem before to do what's best for the DnD content I like. I see no reason not to continue that trust now.
I'm certain that once Lisa, Erik, James and others have had a chance to get the information they can. They've always been up front and honest with their info. I know they won't post the srd on their forums, nor would I expect them to. But, I know that if they get to look at the SRD and they can determine which way they are going to be going, they will let us know. That's good enough for me.
Sorry, tended to start rambling a bit there.
I'm scared, someone hold me.
So if we get quiet, it could well be because we *can't* answer.
It's quite possible that we could all be infected with the T-virus and engaged in zombie antics about our office building, too. When you stop hearing from us my recommendation is to always assume the worst.
Chief Technical Officer
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Paying $5k would be a waste of money IMHO. Paizo isn't going to be ahead of the competition regardless of what people think.
Unless they do a couple of double months, AP2 doesn't concluded until AFTER 4E comes out. This means paying $5k just them start development on AP3 as a 4E AP... which doesn't release until July or August right? But that means they're rushing and doing little to no playtesting or experimenting.
Paying $5000 is the difference between have a rushed 4E AP in the summer or having a tuned 4E AP in the winter. If they go with a summer launch, they'll be competing with three 4E Forgotten Realms products and other major D20 publisher products that pay now (and rush to be the first to get stuff out.)
I think you might be a little confused on the timing.
According to Wizards' announcement, nobody (except for Wizards) gets to release any 4E products until August 1; Pathfinder's third Adventure Path is already scheduled to begin in August. Timing on that couldn't be better.
If you don't pay the $5K, you have to wait five months to publish a 4E product. Pathfinder's fourth AP is already scheduled to begin in February. Timing on *that* couldn't be better.
While we have begun work on the third AP, we're still talking mainly about story, and not so much about rules. We should still have some time (but not much time) to see the OGL and the rules and determine whether or not that license makes sense for Paizo, and whether or not we can tell the types of story we want to tell with those rules. Assuming both of those pass the test, *and* we think that we can best serve our audience by converting to the new edition, then we'll talk about the timeline for switching over. If we don't think we can make a good 4E AP starting in August, we won't.
If we don't think we can make a good 4E AP starting in August, we won't.
And I'm sure it won't be a surprize that if . .
A) you stick with 3.X for AP3 there will be those on the forums that will do home brew conversions to 4e.
and, if . . .
B) you convert to 4e for AP3 there will be those on the forums that will do home brew conversions to 3.X.
When the 4e core rulebooks are released, there are going to be a LOT of people looking around for things to do with it, to try it out. Sure, DMs can still make their own adventures, but there'll be a suddenly vast market for tire-kicking adventures. Paizo is either able to take advantage of that, or not.
I'm just happy that it IS being looked at. I knew my subscriptions were a good choice. Paizo is wise.
I assume Paizo could use a Game Mastery module as a first 4e release to test it out.
I assume Paizo could use a Game Mastery module as a first 4e release to test it out.
Wouldn't work. Because items must be sent to the printer weeks or months in advance, and need to be written before that, by the time the sales figures came back on a 'Test Module', there would be a lag of several months before that information could be used for anything.
I think you might be a little confused on the timing.
According to Wizards' announcement, nobody (except for Wizards) gets to release any 4E products until August 1; Pathfinder's third Adventure Path is already scheduled to begin in August. Timing on that couldn't be better.
(*So the 3rd AP Pathfinder series will be 4e format or 3.5, sorry Vic a little confused)
Just a warning that at some point in the process, we may be restricted from talking about where we are in the process. (Or we might not. We don't know.) So if we get quiet, it could well be because we *can't* answer.
But of course you'll say that your going 4th or staying with 3.5 at the least...
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Chief Technical Officer
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But of course you'll say that your going 4th or staying with 3.5 at the least...
At this point, I'd be very surprised if we aren't able to at least announce what we'll be doing for the third Pathfinder AP inside of six or eight weeks. (Although don't take that as a promise—anything could happen here.)
(And if that's a painfully long time to you, I can assure you we're feeling that pain at least as deeply.)
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I think you might be a little confused on the timing.
According to Wizards' announcement, nobody (except for Wizards) gets to release any 4E products until August 1; Pathfinder's third Adventure Path is already scheduled to begin in August. Timing on that couldn't be better.
No.. not confused.. I forgot about the little timing clause Wizards put out. Still I'd be concerned about developing a 4E product with not enough play time with the 4E system.
If you don't pay the $5K, you have to wait five months to publish a 4E product. Pathfinder's fourth AP is already scheduled to begin in February. Timing on *that* couldn't be better.
Sounds like money to me.
While we have begun work on the third AP, we're still talking mainly about story, and not so much about rules. We should still have some time (but not much time) to see the OGL and the rules and determine whether or not that license makes sense for Paizo, and whether or not we can tell the types of story we want to tell with those rules. Assuming both of those pass the test, *and* we think that we can best serve our audience by converting to the new edition, then we'll talk about the timeline for switching over. If we don't think we can make a good 4E AP starting in August, we won't.
I just don't want to see a subpar product because you guys rushed in. Many of us are still reeling from Creature Collection 1, which wasn't playtested enough (if at all) to reveal the problems in that book. Sure a new monster manual right off the bat was awesome, the errors and CR scoring wasn't pretty.
I think the real advantage of [u]any[/u] company paying to get a look at the rules early isn't having 4E product out before anyone else, but rather having GOOD product before anyone else.
I don't know a lot about the publishing world, but the time frame seems rather short for getting something out the door by August that won't be pretty rough. However, you would have a considerable advantage heading into the January releases with a much longer period of time to understand the rules for yourselves, playtest the hell out of whatever you write, and have at least some time to get feedback from gamers actually playing with the new rules.
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CEO
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I just don't want to see a subpar product because you guys rushed in. Many of us are still reeling from Creature Collection 1, which wasn't playtested enough (if at all) to reveal the problems in that book. Sure a new monster manual right off the bat was awesome, the errors and CR scoring wasn't pretty.
I can absolutely 100% guarantee that Paizo won't put out a rushed 4th edition product. I take very seriously our commitment to producing the best product that we can and won't allow that to slip to hit some artificial date. I have told Erik and James that if they ever think that we have passed the time to make Pathfinder 3 a quality 4th edition product (if we decide to go that way), that we should stick with 3.5 until we are sure we can make a quality product. So you need not worry about this. :)
-Lisa
I hope that Paizo at least looks seriously at producting products for 4E. I myself don't like many of the "fluff" changes, but I remain hopeful of the mechanical changes.
I really like Paizo's adventure's flavor and quality, and would love to see what Paizo can do to use the new rules, which hopefully make it easier to run games, but with Paizo's particular flavor and flair.
If Necromancer Games does a good job putting 3.5 flavor monsters back in the game using 4E rules, and in the OGL, this will hopefully make it possible for Paizo to use such monsters in their adventures.
The reality is that 4E is here. It is highly unlikely that there will be significant third party support for 3.5 once 4E launches. Not from Paizo, not from anyone else. It could turn out that I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
5) There is no step five
/QUOTE]Step Five: Announce the release of 5E!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The best option for me will be
Step One: WotC drags their feet and you don't get the OGL/SRD in time for second darkness.
Step Two: Paizo announces that Second Darkness will be 3.x, but the Game Mastery Modules will be 4.x starting in August
Step Three: Matthew reads his first 4.x module from Paizo finds he can use it, and uses PC Gen to reverse engineer it.
Step Four: The Pathfinder supplimental material goes the route of Green Ronin, with a fluff heavy book first, followed by crunch heavy rules book later.
Step Five: Paizo modifies their subscription to allow me to buy the fluff book, and buy the crunch heavy PDF for 4.x
Step Five a:Paizo makes a cunch heavy PDF or book for 3.x
Step Five b: If not A, then I work on converting the 4.x crunch to 3x crunch.
Hopefully your needs and my wants coincide on some level. :-)
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Right off the bat, I'd say the release restriction is a little fishy. There is no way the 4.0 OGL is as open as the 3.5 OGL. Whatever the reason, good or bad, WotC has the ability to keep the general public from publishing until January 1st, 2009, it sounds like. So, either they are not really making it open until 2009, and the $5k is a 'closed license' until the January release of the truly open license OR the license will never truly be open.
I expect the latter. I also expect Paizo will stick with 3.5.
I'm also very happy about that. Maybe the next six or eight weeks will tell us for certain, but I'm confident in the market for 3.x (otherwise sales for the current products would not be so strong) and I'm confident that Paizo will stick by their loyal customers. I can only imagine how quickly they change their mind if they do switch to 4th edition and start getting cancellation after cancellation....
Though, they might announce it just to see.... They can then 'change their mind'. Could be fun.
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Chief Technical Officer
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You have to sign an NDA just to see the OGL???
Which also means that once we see it, we can't tell you about it. So, if, for example, we find it too restrictive to allow us to do what we want to do, we won't be able to tell you exactly why. We're going to do our best to keep you all in the loop with where we are, but sometimes, you're just going to have to trust us even if we can't tell you why we're doing what we're doing.