Dear Paizo,
Love the new products. I truly do. I'm already thinking of switching my gaming group over to the new Rise of the Runelords campaign.
However, I was pained when I turned the books over and found that both Pathfinder and the new Game Mastery modules are all made in China. Wow, how do I go on here.
I understand that the reason is because it is cheaper for Paizo to have the work done in China. I grimaced even when WOTC decided to make their labor intensive D&D minis in China, but figured not to say anything because of the labor involved. But printing??? Come on. I realize you are using high quality glossy paper, and full color print (including full color artwork). WOTC currently does their work in pure B&W on standard medium weight paper.
Do we, as gamers, NEED the gloss and the damned glitz ???
NO !!! PURE CONTENT!!!
Here's my $.02 suggestions..
- Print in B&W. Keep the PDF's in full color. That way, if we (the gamers) really dig some of the art or want to use it as a show and tell session for the players eyes, we can print that out ourselves at our own leisure.
- Print on standard medium weight (not sure for the trade name of the quality of paper) paper that WOTC uses. I am certain you'd save a bundle on the paper simply not being glossy in the first place.
Let's face it Paizo...you've increased the price. And yes, I do realize that in becoming Pathfinder instead of Dungeon and or Dragon, you now no longer print advertising to help recover your costs and profit. But quite honestly...I'd pay the full subscription price you're asking for your GREAT product as a PDF only.
I realize my ideas are not necessarily going to solve the whole picture but the bottom line is as follows....
As Americans, we need to stop sending our dollars over to China. We need to take pride in what we make and buy once again. Just like the campaign from the 80's.
To the powers that be at Paizo...you know how to contact me if you're taking any of my suggestion in the least bit serious. And if you are so inclined, please do so. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Sincerely,
Flynn - a dedicated Paizo customer.
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I've argued against glossy full color books for as long as 3rd edition's been in print. I've talked to Bill Slavicsek at great length about this.
The decision was made because full color glossy is shiny. Shiny draws attention to the product. Black & White on cheap paper with a durable but not hard cover, doesn't draw as much attention. Wizards cares about new gamers, not us all crusty ones.
I bet most people back when 3.0 came out bought Creature Collection 1 from White Wolf. I did. Maybe even the magic book right? I did too. How many people got volumes 2 and 3 (or the revised CC1)? Not nearly as many.
Another simple but honest fact is, we as gamers have proven willing to pay extra and even more then AD&D players paid for their products. With that said, they're more then happy to continue to making it this way.
You know those questionnaire cards that come with all Wizards D&D/D20 products? You'd be surprised what a small percentage of people put price as an important factor.
I've argued against glossy full color books for as long as 3rd edition's been in print. I've talked to Bill Slavicsek at great length about this.
The decision was made because full color glossy is shiny. Shiny draws attention to the product. Black & White on cheap paper with a durable but not hard cover, doesn't draw as much attention. Wizards cares about new gamers, not us all crusty ones.
I bet most people back when 3.0 came out bought Creature Collection 1 from White Wolf. I did. Maybe even the magic book right? I did too. How many people got volumes 2 and 3 (or the revised CC1)? Not nearly as many.
Another simple but honest fact is, we as gamers have proven willing to pay extra and even more then AD&D players paid for their products. With that said, they're more then happy to continue to making it this way.
You know those questionnaire cards that come with all Wizards D&D/D20 products? You'd be surprised what a small percentage of people put price as an important factor.
I'm not complaining about their price at all. I'd just prefer to know that it came from the US, and supported our economy.
And, I'll admit...you bring up some valid points...I just *personally* don't agree with them and I'm hoping others don't either. Hence, the thread :)
On a personal note, SirUrza, I hope you know that even though the other thread got a bit heated, there is no way I could have any ill will towards you or your thoughts. Just a lively discussion. And hopefully one that truly does get people to think.
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer (Me no troll!!!!)
Just out of curiosity, why not just bump up the existing "Made in China?!" thread, instead of making a new one? Now it'll be difficult to track which one is which, as a result of which people are more likely to lose interest and forget about them both.
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Sadly china is where it's at. Unless Paizo finds some place cheaper to get it printed, it's not going to move.
Gloss isn't going to go away to make the book cheaper for the above mentality. Granted, Paizo isn't Wizards, but the same reason is there. Shiny is better in the eye of the consumer, even if it's not necessary.
It's not going to be printed in the USA, ever, because wages are hugely different, we're talking $5-$10 an hour different.
...we're talking $5-$10 an hour different.
Probably much more.
I don't know the print business, but it is very likely that switching to US printers will double the end price for Pathfinder. (If not more.)
Its a sticky situation for sure. But I am not about to give up Chinese food, or Spaghetti, just because they are Chinese or simply aren't American.
There would have to be serious evidence that Chinese print workers were getting horrible treatment before I worried about printing there.
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Just out of curiosity, why not just bump up the existing "Made in China?!" thread, instead of making a new one? Now it'll be difficult to track which one is which, as a result of which people are more likely to lose interest and forget about them both.
Hey Kirth just figured I would follow up on that lead, the other China thread, and boy did that one get ugly. Maybe it's better to start a new one from a fresh point. Ah well, can't really effectively mix politics and gaming without somebody taking offense.
My 2 cents, go the way of sustainable energy from the energy companies, if you pay something like 2 cents more per kilowatt hour you can add that to developing ways of sustainable energy production. Maybe Paizo could offer the option to customers who would like to see an American print? Not really sure how that would work, but it's not my job to figure that logistical problem, let's leave it to the experts.
Creative Director
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I'm not complaining about their price at all. I'd just prefer to know that it came from the US, and supported our economy.
Well... despite the fact that Pathfinder is printed in China... everything else is done here in Bellevue, WA. Purchasing Pathfinder may well help keep the printer in China afloat, but they print a LOT of product (and a lot for other RPG companies). Them losing our business wouldn't kill them; they'd survive.
BUT: If no one buys Pathfinder, Paizo DOES take a pretty big hit. I, for one, would be on the job market, as would several editors and art directors.
So buying Pathfinder DOES support at least the tiny bit of US economy that I'm personally associated with. For what that's worth.
Some of us aren't American. I for one would like to see them print it in Canada.
=)
I'm not joking.
Some of us aren't American. I for one would like to see them print it in Canada.
=)
I'm not joking.
I'd like to see it shipped from Canada... preferably somewhere within walking distance of my house ;-)
Some of us aren't American. I for one would like to see them print it in Canada. I'm not joking.
You guys, and the Russians, will be the world economic superpowers once the Arctic ice melts and you can put oil platforms in the Arctic Ocean. Until then, you'll have to wait your turn! :)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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This is a problem for much more than just printing. It's a national problem, and it's a political problem.
It's also a problem that can be solved in the voting booth.
We print in China because it is the only way we can get the quality our readers expect at a price they can afford. I'd love for the political situation to be different than that, but it isn't.
--Erik
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This is a problem for much more than just printing. It's a national problem, and it's a political problem.
It's also a problem that can be solved in the voting booth.
We print in China because it is the only way we can get the quality our readers expect at a price they can afford. I'd love for the political situation to be different than that, but it isn't.
--Erik
It is also an economic problem, printing in China is much cheaper than it would be in the United States partly because the chinese government deliberately undervalues their currency by at least 50%...
This is a problem for much more than just printing. It's a national problem, and it's a political problem.
It's also a problem that can be solved in the voting booth.
We print in China because it is the only way we can get the quality our readers expect at a price they can afford. I'd love for the political situation to be different than that, but it isn't.
--Erik
Erik, here's what started me on this (personally speaking). My girlfriend and I were walking through the store the other day, and I started picking stuff up and noticing that it was all made in china. EVERYTHING I looked at, was made in china.
Then I remembered the 80's campaign about being proud that things were made in the USA.
Whereas I don't think voting for Dem vs Rep will solve anything, I do think that the ultimate ballot is cast with dollars. Frankly, I wouldn't stop supporting Paizo. I love your products. This is largely due to the fact that EVERYTHING today is made elsewhere. When you have no other alternative, cessation of purchasing is almost like cutting off your nose to spite yourself. My thought behind this rant was to try to bring people's attention to the topic. And also, maybe to throw some (as I see them, albeit not everyone else) viable alternatives.
Erik, is there some way that I can request that I *not* receive the printed product, and simply pay (the full subscription price) for the PDF? I personally HATE PDF's...but, we have to start making changes *somewhere*. I'll just print what I need at home. Maybe if others begin to do this on a regular basis, Paizo will be able to lower their order for printed material from China to reflect this. That way, more of our money stays here, at home. I know this is not a viable option to everyone, but if people would make this one concession...perhaps OTHER changes can be made that will positively effect our economy.
ALSO, to those who are saying why open a new thread...well, because as much exposure as this topic gets, the better IMHO.
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
I'm not complaining about their price at all. I'd just prefer to know that it came from the US, and supported our economy.Well... despite the fact that Pathfinder is printed in China... everything else is done here in Bellevue, WA. Purchasing Pathfinder may well help keep the printer in China afloat, but they print a LOT of product (and a lot for other RPG companies). Them losing our business wouldn't kill them; they'd survive.
BUT: If no one buys Pathfinder, Paizo DOES take a pretty big hit. I, for one, would be on the job market, as would several editors and art directors.
So buying Pathfinder DOES support at least the tiny bit of US economy that I'm personally associated with. For what that's worth.
I know and APPRECIATE the work you and the rest of the staff at Paizo put into this. And as I already stated to Erik, I would not stop purchasing your goods due largely to the overall situation we face here in America. The last thing I'd want to see are folks here in the states with DREAM JOBS lose them for something far less favorable.
It's not that I'm trying to say "hey, let's stick it to the Chinese printer dudes", I'm trying to say, let's keep what moneys we can HERE in the USA. That's what I hope to sway people to start thinking.
I just want to do whatever possible to try to make a change, you know? And it's the cantankerous jackasses like myself that are the ones who try to see things through...
I strongly support Paizo and want nothing more than to see it's continued success and growth!!!
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
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Uhm?
Not to be rude, but... What's with American people and - you know - the rest of the world? :roll eyes:
I'm Italian. I live in Italy. Are you surprised that I subscribe to Paizo products as well? Would you expect me to make a scene of it, because those product are not made in Italy? Or you believe the USA are somehow "different" from the rest of the world?
Mind it, I don't mean to insult anybody... despite my poor English language proficiency. This thread surprises me, shocks me even, and I find it hard to understand you people. Would anyone care to try and explain your problem to us non-American people? I'm positively curious.
It is also an economic problem, printing in China is much cheaper than it would be in the United States partly because the chinese government deliberately undervalues their currency by at least 50%...
Monetary hawks are saying 30-40% as I read the news. The minimum estimate from mainstream economists is around 25%. Now, there is no doubt that the Chinese are manipulating rates, it's no secret, and surely that accounts for part of the Pathfinder cost, but I just can find your numbers, my friend. Help me out.
Uhm?
Not to be rude, but... What's with American people and - you know - the rest of the world? :roll eyes:I'm Italian. I live in Italy. Are you surprised that I subscribe to Paizo products as well? Would you expect me to make a scene of it, because those product are not made in Italy? Or you believe the USA are somehow "different" from the rest of the world?
Mind it, I don't mean to insult anybody... despite my poor English language proficiency. This thread surprises me, shocks me even, and I find it hard to understand you people. Would anyone care to try and explain your problem to us non-American people? I'm positively curious.
Hey, thanks for chiming in :)
I'll answer your "What's it with Americans' and you know, the rest of the world" if you tell me why most Italians get PO'd if you speak to them in spanish for lack of a better means of communication? :)
Seriously...
Please don't get me wrong. I am not attempting to suggest that we should not do business with other countries. Nor am I suggesting that the xenophobic / pre-WWII approach should be taken either.
I am simply stating, as an American, that I see our economy doing poorly. That when I was a kid, there was pride in making and purchasing US goods. Yet today, there is hardly anything you can purchase that was made here. I am not an economist (as I am sure Krypter will gleefully point out, and call me a Fanatic to boot)...but to me it comes across as more of a common sense issue. Does that make any sense?
And btw, your usage of english and it's associated grammar is nearly perfect, if not entirely passable !!! :)
Take care...and thanks again for throwing in your $.02 worth...
Ciao!
Flynn
My 2 cents, go the way of sustainable energy from the energy companies, if you pay something like 2 cents more per kilowatt hour you can add that to developing ways of sustainable energy production. Maybe Paizo could offer the option to customers who would like to see an American print? Not really sure how that would work, but it's not my job to figure that logistical problem, let's leave it to the experts.
Do you think you'd be open to purchasing a strictly PDF version of the products (where applicable...a PDF Critical Hit! deck would be kinda lame)... ?
Flynn
but are all Pathfinder products printed with lead free ink?
Wow, I'm just not gonna touch that one :)
Flynn
but are all Pathfinder products printed with lead free ink?They're printed with magically evil poison. Do not eat Pathfinder.
Grazzt is behind this !
Flynn
This thread just seems so odd to me.
Walk into almost major chain store (like Walmart for example) and the majority of the products are from countries like China, Taiwan, India, etc.
It is the stark reality of business in a global economy. It is what is it. The days of 'Made in America' are gone because AMERICAN businesses have realized that outsourcing or operating factories in third world countries or countries with a cheap labour force makes a whole lot of sense to their bottom line. And it is all about the bottom line because if a business loses sight of that, they will quickly find themselves out of business.
Trying to get Paizo to change to an American printer when the Walmart down the street is selling clothing & shoes and other products made in China or South Korea or Taiwan, etc is ridiculous unless, after you post that, you are immediately going down to the Walmart with a placard denouncing them for not adhering to 'Made in America'.
Your money goes to Paizo - an American business. Paizo may pay off shore suppliers as part of their operating cost but really, that is much ado about nothing since how they chose to operate their business is really none of your concern. You either buy their products or not -that is the limit of the 'vote' you get.
And if you don't want to buy Pathfinder because it is printed in China, then I suggest you steer clear of Walmart, Zellers and other chain stores. And don't buy any electronics, like computers or TVs, because they either are not manufactured in the US or their components are not.
I don't mean to sound harsh here but lets get real here - it is hypocritical to call Paizo on Pathfinder being printed in China if you are wearing Nikes made in Indonesia, cargo pants made in China and talking on a cellphone which is made in Japan.
Uhm?
Not to be rude, but... What's with American people and - you know - the rest of the world? :roll eyes:I'm Italian. I live in Italy. Are you surprised that I subscribe to Paizo products as well? Would you expect me to make a scene of it, because those product are not made in Italy? Or you believe the USA are somehow "different" from the rest of the world?
Mind it, I don't mean to insult anybody... despite my poor English language proficiency. This thread surprises me, shocks me even, and I find it hard to understand you people. Would anyone care to try and explain your problem to us non-American people? I'm positively curious.
No, it's not a matter of us hating the rest of the world (though we might like it sometimes, sorry). It's just a painful economic time. Hopefully it's just the pains of economic transition and not economic downfall.
It ranges from a knee-jerk reaction to some well-informed opinions, but for many (myself included) it gets hard seeing us send money to another country while people we know who are perfectly capable of doing that job here in the US are unemployed. I live here in Michigan which went from an automotive powerhouse to now having the highest unemployment rate in the US. It can be painful because it ripples through from the manufacturers to the suppliers even to vendors who provide services to all of the above. I built websites for a living at a decent-sized company that survived the dot com bust and even thrived afterwards. But because of the tanking of the automotive industry and the shifting of other manufacturers we worked for overseas, I was laid off a couple years ago and the company went out of business. Because of shifts in manufacturing and other industry problems, over 100 people in a completely separate company doing 21st century IT work all were laid off! So it isn't thinking that the USA is different or better, it's a survival instinct.
But to those who are bothered by Paizo products being printed in China, this has been hashed out in another thread quite thoroughly. The bottom line is that there is nothing Paizo can do right now that doesn't jeopardize the employment of much of the staff or even the existence of the company itself. Those who want to make a difference - go after Wal-Mart who actively encourages and helps companies move to China and does have a huge impact on the economy. Or better yet, work to get our education system up to speed so that we won't have to rely on manufacturing jobs to keep unemployment down.
Right now, there's nothing a company the size of Paizo can do if it wants to stay afloat.
Erik, is there some way that I can request that I *not* receive the printed product, and simply pay (the full subscription price) for the PDF? I personally HATE PDF's...but, we have to start making changes *somewhere*. I'll just print what I need at home. Maybe if others begin to do this on a regular basis, Paizo will be able to lower their order for printed material from China to reflect this. That way, more of our money stays here, at home. I know this is not a viable option to everyone, but if people would make this one concession...perhaps OTHER changes can be made that will positively effect our economy.
Just to throw in another point: PDF: look where most of your computer's components come from especially your printer and ink, also I guess lots of standard programming for the software is done in countries like India, as it is cheaper there. Nowadays there is no escape from globalism. The ecology of a country like America is rather based on high quality products with high research and development costs, which needs lots of brains and highly educated workers...simple labor cannot be payed as lowly as it would be needed to stay competitive. And as Eric Mona said, the highest value of the product was created in America and pays American people.
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I can't say I find this thread overly interesting, I'm afraid. People have spelled out, in convincing detail, why Paizo is printing in China. And I'm fine with that. I know enough economics to understand competitive advantage and all that.
Here's what interests me. Why is printing cheaper in China?
Is printing labor intensive? I'd imagined that modern printing is mostly set by computer, similar to desktop publishing, but with better machines involved. (Note, I said I imagined - I'm asking because I really don't know how this is done...)
Is the ink or paper cheaper in China? If so, any reason why? Is it just the currency manipulations mentioned earlier on the thread, or is there another reason that might be the case?
Or is there some other reason I'm simply missing?
Anyone care to explain how printing a magazine like Pathfinder is actually done?
Thanks,
Drew Garrett
Just to throw in another point: PDF: look where most of your computer's components come from especially your printer and ink, also I guess lots of standard programming for the software is done in countries like India, as it is cheaper there. Nowadays there is no escape from globalism.
\
Hey, I am a developer working with a major piece of software owned by damned near ALL major companies and governmental offices in the US called Peoplesoft. Believe me, I KNOW about the whole "globalism" aspect. Jobs going out the window, job rates being slashed...all for someone who has such a poor grasp of the english language that they can barely effect a true written communication via email. Or someone who has book smarts, but no real world application of their skills to fall back on. I've worked with technical teams out of Manilla and India. Some are fantastic...a majority, not so much.
You get what you pay for. Junk in, junk out.
I *realize* that the majority of EVERYTHING we own / purchase is made outside of the US. Do I think this one action of opting for a PDF over a printed copy will singlehandedly change things? No. But what I am sincerely hoping is that it might start people thinking about things. Searching for other options.
Flynn - dedicated Paizo customer
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is there some way that I can request that I *not* receive the printed product, and simply pay (the full subscription price) for the PDF? I personally HATE PDF's...but, we have to start making changes *somewhere*. I'll just print what I need at home. Maybe if others begin to do this on a regular basis, Paizo will be able to lower their order for printed material from China to reflect this. That way, more of our money stays here, at home. I know this is not a viable option to everyone, but if people would make this one concession...perhaps OTHER changes can be made that will positively effect our economy.
I admire your point and I inherently agree with what you are saying. Of course my concerns tend more towards fair treatment of employees worldwide when it comes to these situations. I accept the demands of American employment standards makes it difficult for companies to remain here. I wish there was something more that could be done but I am unsure what the solution would be in the current climate without creating other problems.
I guess what I don't understand is why you are asking for the option to pay full subscription price and yet opt out of the print product when you can simply buy each PDF individually. I haven't done the math honestly so I am unsure if buying PDFs would actually cost you more in the long run but under your theory of economic responsbility you would be willing to pay more for the product if you could insure all the money went to a US company.
I would suppose your desire to raise awareness is the reason you give for posting in multiple threads, even if the post was off topic. Just be aware that some might consider that thread spamming. You raised awareness. And if someone didn't know it I just made them aware you can buy the PDFs individually and avoid the Chinese printer issue entirely.
If your intention is to sway minds about this I am not sure you can. Not a commentary of you as a person, it is just such a massive hill you have to roll that rock up. I am not entirely convinced, in a world of globalization, such a task is possible. Honestly, I can definitely sympathize with the cause. I wish I could still go to my local butcher to buy meat, my local grocer to buy produce and my local carpenter to build my house. I do what I can when the situation is feasible even if it inconviences me slightly. I wish the days of supermarkets and megastores were no more. I believe, with a number of other factors, they erode the sense of community within our society and that communities worldwide suffer for it. I believe the situation is much more dire on a communal, local level. But they aren't going away and they won't be for a long time to come.
I agree with your thoughts but I like my print products and I want to support Paizo. I can do that by being a Charter Subscriber. I do this understanding some of the money leaves the country to print the product. I am okay with that. Now if I heard the printers in this facility were being mistreated then I would have another problem entirely. But I conciously make the choice in the hopes Paizo can grow and become a stronger company. I hate that I live in a world where such concessions are made but I also know I my control over this is very limited. I can only vote so much with my dollar before it becomes difficult to operate.
Well we've been told that GenCon and other things have delayed the next couple issues of Pathfinder. Could it instead be they are on the slow boat from China?
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Protectionism doesn't make anyone richer apart from a tiny elite. In a modern economy capital is international. Printing in China is good for the US because, in one small instance, it allows a company to produce a product at a competitive price. No printing in China (or similarly cheap place) no Pathfinder of Gamemastery - they would be outcompeted by those with economies of scale and/or overseas printing facilities.
As a non-American, I find the sentiment of the OP a tad suspect. I presume he doesn't mind when American companies trade overseas and make money, only when overseas companies want to trade in the US. While I don't suppose he thought out the ultimate end of his argument, this is crass both economically and verging on bigoted. As the OP seems like a nice guy, I assume he didn't see it that way and I respect his views, but beg to differ strongly.
As a non-American, I find the sentiment of the OP a tad suspect. I presume he doesn't mind when American companies trade overseas and make money, only when overseas companies want to trade in the US. While I don't suppose he thought out the ultimate end of his argument, this is crass both economically and verging on bigoted. As the OP seems like a nice guy, I assume he didn't see it that way and I respect his views, but beg to differ strongly.
Hey, thanks for the kudos :) I *am* a nice guy :)
Truthfully, it bothers me because as Americans we used to be proud to make our own products and purchase American made products. Now, it's just not that way anymore. Frankly, this was just the last straw for me.
I realize as a non-american, this may not be something you would relate to. But as an American, we're watching out economy and jobs go down the tubes. I'm just tired of it. I have NOTHING against anyone in any other country. I'm just tired of the way things are going in our country. That's all :)
Flynn
I admire your point and I inherently agree with what you are saying. Of course my concerns tend more towards fair treatment of employees worldwide when it comes to these situations. I accept the demands of American employment standards makes it difficult for companies to remain here. I wish there was something more that could be done but I am unsure what the solution would be in the current climate without creating other problems.
thank you :)
I guess what I don't understand is why you are asking for the option to pay full subscription price and yet opt out of the print product when you can simply buy each PDF individually. I haven't done the math honestly so I am unsure if buying PDFs would actually cost you more in the long run but under your theory of economic responsbility you would be willing to pay more for the product if you could insure all the money went to a US company.
Well, in my opinion, it would be whining to ask for the cost of the product to be lowered because I chose to go just for the PDF. I'm not looking to hurt Paizo, in fact, I want them to get the full amount. It would be wonderful if enough people caught on, and it was a viable option for Paizo to chop the price in half for those who wish a PDF only edition. Does my madness make sense? I'm only willing to be the guinea pig in an effort to say "YES, I'll Do It!". Maybe others would too. Who knows.
If your intention is to sway minds about this I am not sure you can. Not a commentary of you as a person, it is just such a massive hill you have to roll...
Yeah, it is a huge hill to start up. I'm just personally sick and tired of everyone saying "dude, it's a global economy, accept it". Chances are, I'm completely wrong and in the longtooth of history I'll look like a dufus. But, I feel that my heart is in the right place. Therefore, I'm willing to do it.
Take care,
Flynn
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Creative Director
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Well we've been told that GenCon and other things have delayed the next couple issues of Pathfinder. Could it instead be they are on the slow boat from China?
They're on a slow boat, yes. But that was figured into the schedule. Pathfinder 2 is late because I only worked 70 hour weeks to get it done, not 80 or 90 hour weeks. Sorry.
And personally, I think that the print quality we've seen for Pathfinder and the modules is excellent. I say: Well done, China! Thanks for making it possible for Paizo to exist!
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Chief Technical Officer
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I guess what I don't understand is why you are asking for the option to pay full subscription price and yet opt out of the print product when you can simply buy each PDF individually. I haven't done the math honestly so I am unsure if buying PDFs would actually cost you more in the long run but under your theory of economic responsbility you would be willing to pay more for the product if you could insure all the money went to a US company.
The current subscriber discount works out to $13.99 plus shipping. Buying just the PDF would cost $13.99. So if you look at it one way, subscribers to the print edition get a 30% discount and a free PDF. But if you look at it the other way, subscribers to the PDF get a free print edition for the cost of shipping.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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It ranges from a knee-jerk reaction to some well-informed opinions, but for many (myself included) it gets hard seeing us send money to another country while people we know who are perfectly capable of doing that job here in the US are unemployed. I live here in Michigan which went from an automotive powerhouse to now having the highest unemployment rate in the US. It can be painful because it ripples through from the manufacturers to the suppliers even to vendors who provide services to all of the above. I built websites for a living at a decent-sized company that survived the dot com bust and even thrived afterwards. But because of the tanking of the automotive industry and the shifting of other manufacturers we worked for overseas, I was laid off a couple years ago and the company went out of business. Because of shifts in manufacturing and other industry problems, over 100 people in a completely separate company doing 21st century IT work all were laid off! So it isn't thinking that the USA is different or better, it's a survival instinct.But to those who are bothered by Paizo products being printed in China, this has...
Preach on Ken! I too live in the "D" and have been subcontracted by the auto industry. I make 70% more/hour than I did 10 years ago but I'm still only making the same yearly salary! This not only affects the gaming products I buy but everything I have to purchase! I absolutely hate Walmart because of their business practices and refuse to shop there if at all possible choosing the Regional supermarket chain instead (Meijer) because they're putting money into our local economy.
Folks it's so bad here in Michigan that my gaming group has missed gaming most of this summer because fully half of my six players needed to be out on the weekends working crappy part time jobs making little more than minimum wage or be out looking for work. I never thought I'd hear it said that the economy stopped me from playing D&D!!!
All of you at Paizo have done and still are doing a wonderful job. You have made business choices to ensure the success of your company while providing top of the line product for your customers!
You all get A+ in my grade book.
Preach on Ken! I too live in the "D" and have been subcontracted by the auto industry. I make 70% more/hour than I did 10 years ago but I'm still only making the same yearly salary! This not only affects the gaming products I buy but everything I have to purchase! I absolutely hate Walmart because of their business practices and refuse to shop there if at all possible choosing the Regional supermarket chain instead (Meijer) because they're putting money into our local economy.
Folks it's so bad here in Michigan that my gaming group has missed gaming most of this summer because fully half of my six players needed to be out on the weekends working crappy part time jobs making little more than minimum wage or be out looking for work. I never thought I'd hear it said that the economy stopped me from playing D&D!!!
I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I have owned several American Cars and frankly I no longer buy them because I had so many major problems from engine to body. I now buy German and have had only minor problems at worst. So in my eyes the American auto industry is struggling because of quality issues, without serious consumer incentives there is no way people will by products of substandard quality that cost as much to maintain a year or two out of the lot as they did to buy from the lot.
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I realize as a non-american, this may not be something you would relate to. But as an American, we're watching out economy and jobs go down the tubes. I'm just tired of it. I have NOTHING against anyone in any other country. I'm just tired of the way things are going in our country. That's all :)
Well, we have, or had, a manufacturing base in the UK but it has shrunk. But we also have fairly full employment, and I think you do in the US too. Economies change - that is due to a number of forces, but it is inevitable. The one thing that will guarantee getting flattened in the rush is trying to stop it happening instead of adapting.
While the openness of US trade is somewhat overstated, and the closedness of EU trade likewise, the inflexibility of European labour markets v the flexibility of US ones has resulted in much higher unemployment in Europe than America over the last decade or so. This is because jobs in manufacturing went elsewhere, and the labour markets were not able to adapt so readily.
By and large, economies continue to grow - the US economy was doing rather well until very recently, so the "down the tubes" assessment you give seems slightly at odds with reality. That said, manual labour does lose out to the competition from China and such places, because those are the particular people whose jobs can be done more cheaply overseas, and possibly find it harder to find alternative employment. But trade barriers make everyone poorer and, like I say above, might be more likely to drive someone like Paizo to the wall than help anybody else much.
I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I have owned several American Cars and frankly I no longer buy them because I had so many major problems from engine to body. I now buy German and have had only minor problems at worst. So in my eyes the American auto industry is struggling because of quality issues, without serious consumer incentives there is no way people will by products of substandard quality that cost as much to maintain a year or two out of the lot as they did to buy from the lot.
I don't want to threadjack too much, but quality is definitely a major player in the collapse of the American auto industry, but it's far from the only one. It's definitely there, however - our Dodge minivan has been in the shop probably once every other month when we approached 80,000 miles. The shop owner joked for a while that we were subsidizing his business. Our Toyota car has about 250,000 miles and we finally took it in because a couple wires were shorting out (lousy Michigan weather!).
But the auto industry problems go beyond just quality. They range from health insurance rates rising out of control, the lower cost of manufacturing overseas that has been discussed here, to business policies from the Big 3 that try to save their bottom line right now even if it guts their entire supply chain. (One of the most insane, in my opinion, is the GM mandate in place for years that all suppliers must lower their prices every year - in spite of the natural progress of inflation! Try running a small manufacturing business where your costs naturally go up every year, but you are mandated to lower your price every year. If you don't like it they will find someone else who does.)
So the execs here in Michigan definitely dug this hole themselves far beyond just lower quality products (though I throw some blame towards the health insurance industry as well, but that's another discussion). Just too bad they are dragging the entire state down with them. It's no surprise that Volkswagen just announced that they are moving their American hq out of Michigan because there's really not much point in staying here anymore.
So, anyway, threadjack over, sorry!
By and large, economies continue to grow - the US economy was doing rather well until very recently, so the "down the tubes" assessment you give seems slightly at odds with reality.
In defense of PrimeMover, for example, while the U.S. economy is hardly "going down the tubes," the effects of any economic adjustments are felt disproportionately. I've left upstate New York because the economy is so depressed there as compared with the booming South and West. Detroit and its surroundings have perhaps been hit harder than anywhere else in the U.S., and people there are understandably feeling bitter about it.
That said, in the long run, survival requires being able to adapt to change. Troy, NY, where I had my first apartment, will always be special to me--but it is overrun with gangs and drugs and poverty and unemployment; staying there would get me nowhere but in the same pit. I live in Texas now. For food, I'll cheerfully put up with heat and humidity and hurricanes and two-ton pickup trucks all over the roads. To some extent, it's unfortunate that Paizo is forced to print in China, but that's reality. Fighting it might make you feel virtuous, but it's a losing cause. You know the saying about "give me the strength to change the things I can, the ability to accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference"? Things change, and no amount of effort the world can create a static 1950's America that will last forever.
By and large, economies continue to grow - the US economy was doing rather well until very recently, so the "down the tubes" assessment you give seems slightly at odds with reality. That said, manual labour does lose out to the competition from China and such places, because those are the particular people whose jobs can be done more cheaply overseas, and possibly find it harder to find alternative employment. But trade barriers make everyone poorer and, like I say above, might be more likely to drive someone like Paizo to the wall than help anybody else much.
I see your point that the economy doesn't seem to be "down the tubes" because overall things have been getting better. However, individually, middle class and lower class families are getting worse off. Unemployment rates have improved some, but income levels have actually dropped in recent years. So what you have is a shift of large portions of the workforce to lower paying jobs. Looking at numbers like the overall economy and unemployment rates, the picture looks rosy. But individual families are somehow doing worse off. Which gives many of us the picture that maybe some people are benefiting from the economy improving, but overall, it ain't helping us. :)
Plus state by state the picture changes a lot. Like primemover003 above, I'm in Michigan which went from doing just fine to worst in the nation over the last decade or so. When the overall US economy sunk, we went down with it. When it recovered, we didn't. With the ripple effect, the state government has had a "budget crisis" every year for the past several years, schools are getting their funding slashed which leads to many of them are closing down, which leads to overcrowding and lower education, etc. etc. Not to mention many of the most employable workers (especially in the IT/technology area) have been moving out of state leaving a massive drain on skilled employees. Which would naturally incline people to think "Well, why don't those unemployed learn the skills needed to fill in that void?" But going back to school when you are in your 30s, 40s, or even 50s while still trying to support a family is easier said than done. I'm lucky since I started my career in a more technical area, so I've been able to remain employable. So the overall picture might look rosy, but at finer detail, it's very uneven right now between the classes as well as between regions.
However, I agree with your point that it's a matter of adapting rather than trying to fight globalization and progress. That doesn't help the current unemployed, or those who were laid off higher paying jobs to take minimum wage ones. But in the long run, that's the best we can do.
However, I agree with your point that it's a matter of adapting rather than trying to fight globalization and progress. That doesn't help the current unemployed, or those who were laid off higher paying jobs to take minimum wage ones. But in the long run, that's the best we can do.
When I was a kid, I suspect my father would sometimes rig my games so they'd come out poorly for me despite my best efforts. I'd complain "that's not fair!", and he'd point out for the billionth time that life isn't fair. Your post, Ken, highlights the truth of his statement beautifully. Just because something sucks and we rail against it doesn't make that thing magically go away. Often, we just have to do the best we can do.
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I see your point that the economy doesn't seem to be "down the tubes" because overall things have been getting better. However, individually, middle class and lower class families are getting worse off. Unemployment rates have improved some, but income levels have actually dropped in recent years. So what you have is a shift of large portions of the workforce to lower paying jobs. Looking at numbers like the overall economy and unemployment rates, the picture looks rosy. But individual families are somehow doing worse off. Which gives many of us the picture that maybe some people are benefiting from the economy improving, but overall, it ain't helping us. :)
Plus state by state the picture changes a lot. Like primemover003 above, I'm in Michigan which went from doing just fine to worst in the nation over the last decade or so. When the overall US economy sunk, we went down with it. When it recovered, we didn't. With the ripple effect, the state government has had a "budget crisis" every year for the past several years, schools are getting their funding slashed which leads to many of them are closing down, which leads to overcrowding and lower education, etc. etc. Not to mention many of the most employable workers (especially in the IT/technology area) have been moving out of state leaving a massive drain on skilled employees. Which would naturally incline people to think "Well, why don't those unemployed learn the skills needed to fill in that void?" But going back to school when you are in your 30s, 40s, or even 50s while still trying to support a family is easier said than done. I'm lucky since I started my career in a more technical area, so I've been able to remain employable. So the overall picture might look rosy, but at finer detail, it's very uneven right now between the classes as well as between regions.
However, I agree with your point that it's a matter of adapting rather than trying to fight globalization and progress. That doesn't help the current unemployed, or those who were laid off higher paying jobs to take minimum wage ones. But in the long run, that's the best we can do.
All perfectly true. Generally, the changes involve winners and losers. Generally, there are more winners than losers, but there are still losers. I can't speak fo US households, but the UK economy is heavily driven by financial services. This has generally been on the up, and I work in it, so I'm sitting fairly pretty - one of the winners. But there are areas where manufacturing jobs have been lost which leads to economic decline.
I was originally going to use the term "unskilled labour" in my last post, but changed it in case I ended up insulting the OP (the context, rather than the term, implied I was making a judgement about his personal employment which I wasn't). These are the jobs generally most at risk in the current environment. As an example, there are no English-speaking roadsweepers anymore. The middle classes are less impacted by this unless they are connected to manufacturing jobs. An example of this was the collapse of the Rover car-building group in the UK a few years ago. Most of the (highly skilled) workers very quickly found new jobs, though it is also fair to say that many were not as well paid afterwards as they had been before the collapse.
That said, I am fairly sure that, while globalisation has something to do with it, other factors, such as welfare dependence, trap some people in poverty when they might otherwise go on to do something else. I remember a very deep recession in the UK in the early 90's, when some areas where in a terrible state (there was one in the US about this time, but it was nowhere as bad). Many of these areas have since bounced back. But there are pockets of deprivation, even in go-go London.
But the failure of middle class incomes to rise as far as others in this country at least has much less to do with globalisation and more to do with a massively increased burden of taxation by our benevolent Labour government.