Chief Technical Officer
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Now it's $40 for 96pages. and this is when the printing costs are slashed to (probably) a quarter of what they were for Dragon or Dungeon.
First of all, Dungeon and Dragon were magazines, subsidized by advertising, printed on magazine stock, and each in runs of tens of thousands of copies per month. Pathfinder is a book, printed on pretty darn awesome stock, with no ads, printed in runs substantially smaller than either magazine. It costs us *more* to make—even printing in China—but we've done our best to ensure that a lot of people will think it's the best RPG value they can get for $19.99.
Secondly, I can't speak for what the retailers in Australia are charging, but if you were to buy a single copy of Pathfinder from paizo.com, it would cost you USD $19.99 plus $6.86 shipping to Australia; that's about AUD $33. Furthermore, if you subscribed, you'd drop that to USD $13.99 plus $5 shipping—that's less than AUD $24 (and you'd get a free PDF).
40c an hour.
Can I have a detailed analysis of the cost of living in China to go along with that lovely "per hour" figure?
My guess is, and I don't have any data to back it up, is that that 40c an hour goes a lot farther than it would in the U.S., or Australia, or Peru.
It's fine to throw out inflamatory factoids like that, but if you take them out of their context, then they lose a lot of their bite.
Mr Chinese print-worker has to work for 49 hours to purchase a copy of Pathfinder from his local game store. I have to work for about 2-1/2 hours (and then I get a paid break). I can join a Union. I get a choice of multiple partys to vote for in regular and fair elections. I have government regulated Safety standards in case I lose a body part at work and a "pension" should that body part loss take me out of the workplace. The city I live and work in doesn't make top-100-polluted- cities-in-the-world list (Chinese cities dominate that list). I can write up a blog entitled "George Bush is a Twink" or "Hilary Clinton is a lesbian" and I'm not going to receive a visit from the police. I'm not to be put in jail for 10 years and have my family black-listed for being a member of "yoga" group. AND because I have access to media thatisn't state controlled , I get to find out about events like the death of around 150 miners last week BEFORE the miner's familys did.
How's that for context.
How's that for context.
Not really appropriate for these boards...
I think its very appropriate.I feel that we have the right to make informed decisions about the products we buy.Where other than paizos message boards should people dicuss paizos business practices?The decisions a company make should directly reflect on them.If a company makes the choice to outsource labor or have labor done in a region with less than acceptable labor practices we have a right to know that and make our choice whether or not to buy a product based on that if we choose.
Then choose. Either buy it or don't. They have clearly stated their reasons for their decision - if it were printed in a more "desirable" location, it would cost you too much. No one here is going to change anyone elses political views - it's messageboard for a comapny that makes RPG products. Shouldn't we be discussing gaming?
...How's that for context.
lol.
1. 49 hours to earn 18 USD? Let's see, that would be an income of 520 RMB a month for a print worker.... not. As your calculations are made purely for inflammatory rhetorical purposes why am I doing this? Hurm. The only people paid as poorly as you have argued are farmers (the lowest may be around 400 RMB a month). And even then, pay is different on a city to city basis, or province to province. Basically, few are as abjectly poor as you say.
Moreover, Chinese employment guarantees benefits in addition to the pay received, from housing, food, all the way up to houses and cars for executives.
2. You try and have the population density of China without pollution. BTW, China's emission standards are stricter than America.
3. China has an authoritarian government system. Deal with it. Someone can say Mao is a twink, just don't write it or advertise it. I'm not excusing this, but as someone with some expertise on China, your remark is empty and useless, and does nothing to improve the chance of Chinese people developing more freedom in the future. Your knee jerk intolerant remarks are one of the reasons that the Communist Party opposes freedom of speech. If people discussed things rationally and solve problems through processes that do not descend into the chaos the party fears, we might have an entirely different situation here. I'm not agreeing, just being realistic. And by the way, let's keep China criticism off this site, I would be really pissed and Paizo would lose a customer if Chinese security firewalls it.
4. "Yoga" groups don't brainwash people. Their children do not set themselves on fire in the middle of Tiananmen square. And don't even suggest that I know nothing about FG, I've met them in my hometown: Edmonton, Canada. And their spokesman was a mindless robot weakly spewing spun truths.
5. You have access to media that is not state controlled? You must not be American.
6. Miners. Sad and true. Work conditions in many industries in China are dangerous. You haven't even begun to touch on the problems China faces in improving the lives of its workers; many others will die slowly and painfully from diseases they acquire working and they have only universal health care as consolation. There is rarely compensation. Perhaps the solvent used to print Pathfinder will cause someone to suffer respiratory ailments. Why? There is little safety education here and many workers just don't seem to take it seriously. I can't figure it out. People have seat belts, the law requires them, yet they don't wear them. What gives?
7. China has so many other problems that you have not listed, it makes me wonder what your purpose is?
MOST IMPORTANTLY:
A Chinese print worker couldn't be bothered to go out and pick up a copy of Pathfinder. He's just glad to have the job.
If you feel ashamed that you benefit from the cheap materials that keep American homes chock full of shiny toys and electronics, why don't you go live as a hermit in the mountains?
Kruelaid
Weihai, Shandong
And by the way, let's keep China criticism off this site, I would be really pissed and Paizo would lose a customer if Chinese security firewalls it.
Is that a threat?
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Is that a threat?
And by the way, let's keep China criticism off this site, I would be really pissed and Paizo would lose a customer if Chinese security firewalls it.
GAAAAHHHHH!
No, he's worried that if you keep yipping on about how bad China is, then the totalitarian government you've been yipping about will block the Paizo site, and he won't be able to order products from Paizo (which is in America) because he won't be able to get on the site.
How hard is that to figure out?
Is that a threat?
And by the way, let's keep China criticism off this site, I would be really pissed and Paizo would lose a customer if Chinese security firewalls it.
GAAAAHHHHH!
No, he's worried that if you keep yipping on about how bad China is, then the totalitarian government you've been yipping about will block the Paizo site, and he won't be able to order products from Paizo (which is in America) because he won't be able to get on the site.
How hard is that to figure out?
To quote from Kruelaid's own letter. "China has an authoritarian government system. Deal with it."
Is that a threat?
[Gouges own eyeballs out before having to read another post]
To quote from Kruelaid's own letter. "China has an authoritarian government system. Deal with it."
True that...
I could think of some much better forums to discuss issues such as these, but you don't really seem to be discussing anything, just venting. Plus, so far your hollow remarks don't merit censorship. Try a little harder.
True that...
I could think of some much better forums to discuss issues such as these, but you don't really seem to be discussing anything, just venting.
Discussing, venting, arguing - Call it what you want. It's all good - I love it.
I love that you and Stunty feel strongly enough about all this to sit a type out a reply. I love that fact that we CAN when so many in the world can't. I don't like the fact that some of us think that that's OK.
and if Paizo gets firewalled from china (probably followed me getting firewalled from Paizo)get a mate who's not living in china to get your stuff for you.
Plus, so far your hollow remarks don't merit censorship. Try a little harder.
Then what are you worried about!
Anyone in China who knows computers has mastered the use of proxy servers.
=)
I made the censorship remark in a half humorous manner. While it is true that they are watching, they don't always care.
I have students whose field of study is "information control" and their future jobs will be, among other things, to write software that finds discussions like these and flags them for human scrutiny.
My understanding is that they really don't care about this site because there is not enough traffic. Unless someone publishes something that was/is a secret, or posts images that are embarrassing to China (the govt), there is nothing for me to worry about.
And the little devils have bots that scan e-mail too, they even unzip stuff....
I wish I hadn´t asked in the first place...
Don't you dare.
The thing is, you had a legitimate concern. (I doubt anyone could say otherwise.) As a consumer, you had every right to ask. Expecting a response might have been too much... But you even received a reasonable answer from the company you asked.
(Side Note: Even though the response was reasonable, the contents of the response may, or may not, be reasonable. Individuals choice.)
Despite how this thread turned out, you did nothing to be sorry about.
What we have learned is that perhaps these kind of questions are not meant for public boards.
Plus, so far your hollow remarks don't merit censorship. Try a little harder.Then what are you worried about!
I've been here for almost 5 years and I don't know any cool, shattering secrets.
Too bad.
I wish I hadn´t asked in the first place...Don't you dare.
Damn right- Don't you dare! Don't wimp out on us now! You started it!
:)
This will explain everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdVEM5WMDo0
This will explain everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdVEM5WMDo0
She's dead. My world is shattered.
She's dead. My world is shattered.This will explain everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdVEM5WMDo0
Ditto.
Damn right- Don't you dare! Don't wimp out on us now! You started it!
What we have learned is that these kind of questions are definitely not meant for public boards.
Fixed.
I wish I hadn´t asked in the first place...Don't you dare.
The thing is, you had a legitimate concern. (I doubt anyone could say otherwise.) As a consumer, you had every right to ask. Expecting a response might have been too much... But you even received a reasonable answer from the company you asked.
(Side Note: Even though the response was reasonable, the contents of the response may, or may not, be reasonable. Individuals choice.)Despite how this thread turned out, you did nothing to be sorry about.
Yeah, the basic question is still legitimate, thats true. But if asking such a question leads to a flame war (or something close to it), I feel a bit sorry for stirring up the trouble in first place. I still did not want to put the business decision of printing in China in question, as this is none of my concern. My concerns were aimed at the process of printing and the surrounding procedures, and these have been satisfactorily answered .
The general concern of producing in China and the effect on the economies of the US or the EU were not part of my question, as I´m in no position to play judge about business decisions of paizo or any other company. To do otherwise would be overbearing.
Stefan
Wow, yeah, what a train wreck of a thread. Makes me sorry I piped up as well. Guess I should have remembered to keep politics off of RPG boards and not replied in the thread.
Anyway, thanks for listening, Paizo. I think we just ask these sorts of things because you all are so open to your customers, and thank you for that.
I loathe giving this thread any more attention, but I was watching Fraggle Rock with my son this morning, and heard something that directly applies here:
"It's not easy to understand other people's problems, but it is very easy to think you do."
Sigh!
Bal3000, before you rant any more, please go read an old book by Jonathan Spence entitled "To Change China." Also, I don't know how the term "coloured people" is viewed in Australia, but it kind of has racist overtones in American English. Not trying to make accusations but to give you feedback on how your use of the language is perceived over here.
The Chinese really are doing their level best to grope their way through all of the problems noted above. Like all countries, they have their share of greedy people, idiots, smart people, power-hungry people, and ordinary Joes. But if we try to fix their problems for them by trying to ram some solution down their throat, well, it would not be taken any better than if the British parliament tried to tell you how to solve your problems down there in Australia. And with good reason. Boycotting China, unfortunately, is not the answer. It won't raise wages in China, and it won't bring democracy to China. I believe those things will happen eventually--China is in many ways a much better place than it was 30 years ago by both economic and political measures--but they will happen slowly, and there will be setbacks. Democracy didn't drop out of the sky in Europe, and there's no reason to expect that it will in China, either--it's a long slow process of development.
I made my earlier post because I wanted people to recognize that we in the developed countries benefit from asymmetries in the world economy. Just to be aware of it, be thankful for what you have, and try to help people around you who are in need.
Wages of $0.40 an hour go a lot farther in China than in the developed world, and while there are plenty of abuses as I pointed out in my earlier post, many of the people earning such wages are not supporting families--they are young rural people who work in the city for a few years to build a small nest-egg, then go back home and get married and raise a family in the country. In my experience living in China (now 6 years ago), I could support a reasonably comfortable lifestyle for around 3 or 4 thousand renminbi a month (less than $500 US). And most urban workers in good paying jobs could get by just fine on 800 to 1,000. That's about $100-120 US--around $200-250 if both spouses work. Wages, and prices are going up fairly rapidly (economy is growing at 10%), so those figures are probably a bit out of date.
There are also a lot of very dirt poor people in the countryside, including quite a few who suffer marginal malnutrition. As in most developing countries. This was true in the U.S. before the 1920s-1930s. I have friends who have trouble paying tuition of $30 a year for their kids to go to public school. But they grow their own food, so as long as it rains enough to fill the reservoir and not enough to wash their terraces down the side of the mountain, they do allright. In some ways they have a better life than I do, although I don't think I'd trade.
I just got my first Pathfinder in the mail yesterday. It looks beautiful, that's for sure. That said, I don't think we ('Merkins) should be doing business with commies (neo-cons be damned). I'd be willing to pay more for Made in the USA, but how much more I'm not sure.
I'm a hypocrite though because I buy Chinese tubes and they're made there because of environmental restrictions in the US.
Then again, just because you're a hypocrite that doesn't make you wrong.
I wish we had more "Made in the USA" options across the board.
Also, I don't know how the term "coloured people" is viewed in Australia, but it kind of has racist overtones in American English. Not trying to make accusations but to give you feedback on how your use of the language is perceived over here.
It probably has the same racist overtones in Australian English. I used it in the same way that Bill Hicks (RIP)used a similar phrase in a routine about the military on his "Rant In E-Minor" CD.
Absolutly no rascist overtone was intended and I apologise if any offence was taken.
I feel a bit sorry for stirring up the trouble in first place.
Don't feel sorry. Believe or not, this is fun.
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I love that you and Stunty feel strongly enough about all this to sit a type out a reply. I love that fact that we CAN when so many in the world can't. I don't like the fact that some of us think that that's OK.
What is this about? Workers' rights, or China? One of the things which actually helps a country shake off statism and totalitarianism is the development of a middle class. And that comes about through economic development, which involves international trade. Yeah, the Chinese regime may not be the best, but it ain't the worst either (and I'm no apologist for Communists, I can assure you). I don't like that there are some aspects of Chinese one-party rule that lead to human rights abuses. But I'm not going to make much difference with boycotts - that really worked well with Myanmar, Iraq, Iran, North Korea... Commerce and trade involve people making choices. Modern democracy is the "political" market, and derives from the first - property rights, the rule of law.
and if Paizo gets firewalled from china (probably followed me getting firewalled from Paizo) get a mate who's not living in china to get your stuff for you.
These poor oppressed masses in China, with a load of mates overseas to send them banned roleplaying materials. I hope that was a joke.
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The reason workers get paid less in developing countries, in case people wonder, has less to do with oppression and more to do with their relative productivity (or lack thereof - due to lack of skills, equipment, education, and so on). The fundamental issue is that if they were paid the same amount as US workers, they would immediately wind up unemployed because a US worker is much more productive. So looking to raise their wages, while they would doubtless wish it, would actually wreck the economies of deveoping countries where the real asset is people rather than capital.
As a sort of example, as part of German reunification the East German Ostmark (sp) was exchanged for West German Deutschemarks on a ratio of 1:1, even though the real exchange rate was really 2 ostmarks = 1 Deutschemark. This act of generosity made the East German workers twice as expensive as they had been before. Add in West German/EU laws on workers rights, job protection and so on, the net result was massive unemployment in East Germany. They at least had social security to fall back on, a worker in Indonesia doesn't.
Is that a threat?
And by the way, let's keep China criticism off this site, I would be really pissed and Paizo would lose a customer if Chinese security firewalls it.
GAAAAHHHHH!
No, he's worried that if you keep yipping on about how bad China is, then the totalitarian government you've been yipping about will block the Paizo site, and he won't be able to order products from Paizo (which is in America) because he won't be able to get on the site.
How hard is that to figure out?
Leave me out of this.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Where did you get this number?You think thats how much more each issue cost to be printed in the US or did you simply pull this number out of your ass?Check the 5th post in this thread - by Erik Mona (who I would assume knows what he's talking about):
until customers are willing to pay $30 or more for something like PathfinderPathfinder is currently $19.99 and Erik's guess of $30 as the possible difference - now my math's not that great but... I think that's about $10 difference, right?
And that is, for me, quite a problem. You see, i am one of those "bad people" without unlimited cash supply. I can honestly say that the current 20$ is already more than I'd usually pay. Another 10$ on top of that so someone can stroke their egos on how humane they are by putting people out of work in china instead of the US would be more than i would pay for it.
And now, back to your regular scheduled flamewar.
Perhuain!
Great post!
All those anti-China anti-commie Americans posting on this thread, it might be worth it to keep in mind that we live in a country that has 1/3 of the world's natural resources...it's easy for us to turn up our noses at developing countries problems.
China's recent history is fraught with setbacks...from being carved to bits by European and AMERICAN interests in the last century, and struggling with ecological disasters, warlordism, constant regime shifts until 1950 (That was really not so long ago folks).
Now China has the second largest population in the world today and very limited resources (it is not blessed with the bounty we stole from the Native Americans). The regime in power today is doing the best it can under circumstances staggeringly more difficult than anything America could ever comprehend. The country's resources can't keep up with the population's needs. It is a simple matter.
Security is a huge concern. The Chinese have a saying: "The country long divided must unite, long united must divide." These periods of division are ALWAYS fraught with the worst kind of terror, bloodshed, and famine. The last period was in the 20s...when warlordism took the place of the Emperor. China needs security, hence it pays a price in human rights violations to maintain complete control lest the whole government come toppling down and the damage be catastrophic. Look at Africa and the atrocities that occur all over the continent daily. China has experienced this anarchy before and NOBODY (not the people or the government) want it again.
My favorite question to throw at Anti-Chinas (some of you folk) is how would you do it different! Think on that before casting the "BAD BAD COMMIES" stones.
Under the circumstances I think China is doing okay.
Something weird is up with this thread. The directory indicates there are 69 posts in the thread, most recently one from Nick Logue responding to me, but when I enter the thread, it indicates there are 84 posts and I don't see Nick's anywhere.
????????
These poor oppressed masses in China, with a load of mates overseas to send them banned roleplaying materials. I hope that was a joke.
Sorry. I meant that Kruelaid's mates could send him RPG stuff.
Sorry. I meant that Kruelaid's mates could send him RPG stuff.
These poor oppressed masses in China, with a load of mates overseas to send them banned roleplaying materials. I hope that was a joke.
It's not banned, in fact they have even opened up a box from Paizo and had a look.
And indeed, my friends do send me gaming material. I started out pretty bare bones, but I have enough figures for a campaign now and my dear old mom took the time to find my Greyhawk maps and send them so things are looking pretty posh for a campaign in the land of Mao. Thanks mom!
OK, now I can see it. But I just got logged off in the middle of a long post in the "Japanese names" thread. :( No time to rewrite it, so I guess everyone will have to live without the supreme enlightenment of a ten-minute lecture on how Chinese and Japanese names work. Oh well, I'm all rehearsed for my class tomorrow. Now I just have to write the syllabus.
China's recent history is fraught with setbacks...from being carved to bits by European and AMERICAN interests in the last century, and struggling with ecological disasters, warlordism, constant regime shifts until 1950 (That was really not so long ago folks).Security is a huge concern. The Chinese have a saying: "The country long divided must unite, long united must divide." These periods of division are ALWAYS fraught with the worst kind of terror, bloodshed, and famine. The last period was in the 20s...when warlordism took the place of the Emperor. China needs security, hence it pays a price in human rights violations to maintain complete control lest the whole government come toppling down and the damage be catastrophic. Look at Africa and the atrocities that occur all over the continent daily. China has experienced this anarchy before and NOBODY (not the people or the government) want it again.
If you want to read an excellent first-hand account on 20th century china, read this book. I´m not done with it yet, but it is terrible and fascinating at the same time - not that I would understand the chinese mindset more after reading it...
Stefan
I do see that China is a hopeful case, and one way to ensure it is not a menace to its neighbours and the world at large is through trade ties.
Exactly. Here we completely agree my man.
China is exactly where Japan was in the late 1800's early 1900's. We all know how that turned out don't we?
I do see that China is a hopeful case, and one way to ensure it is not a menace to its neighbours and the world at large is through trade ties.Exactly. Here we completely agree my man.
I do however see hopes that the party will give up any of their control even to a democratic opposition as overly optimistic unless you are talking about more than 40 years in the future.
I kinda hear what Nic is saying, though I don't necessarily agree with the implication that it excuses totalitarianism. However, I do see that China is a hopeful case, and one way to ensure it is not a menace to its neighbours and the world at large is through trade ties.
It is actually authoritarianism, not totalitarianism. Chinese are allowed to have their own viewpoints and discuss them, the problem occurs when you try to publish them.
Also, in all of its history, China has infrequently menaced its neighbors or any other countries. The idea of a 'China threat' is largely a product of western propaganda. But hey, you never know.
America has a poorer record on this matter.
If someone wants to bring Tibet into this, there is a little more to consider than just ranting about how China should get out. Of course I have forfeited my access to objective sources on the invasion (China: liberation) of Tibet by living here, so I probably shouldn't get into a debate on it.
I'd like to hear your view on the occupation of Tibet since you bring it up.
To put it simply.
I think it was strategically a good move by the Chinese because those mountains contain an important source of their water, which they don't have a lot of. It physically separates them from another massive country in terms of population. It contains mineral resources.
I think China can gloss over the invasion as a liberation quite easily, Tibet was a feudal state ruled by a theocracy. It had previously been a part of China, although it was managed by theocrats. When the PLA walked in the feudal lords sent their low-morale (and often armed only with tools) serfs to fight the seasoned morale-charged PLA and they were annihilated, the PLA all believed they were bringing the glory of communism--Chinese were delirious with joy at bringing equality to Tibet.
Security was very heavy handed, as it always is after an invasion (see Iraq), and a lot of people were killed. Others were and still are imprisoned. Until recently security there was totalitarian, it's only since China's opening that things have eased up.
China has now 'colonized' Tibet with enough of their own people that the countries can no longer be separated. I see no sense in making a stink over it. The ink on the map is dry. 50 year old history.
Now the following is in no way a criticism of Americans and is not directed at anyone in particular here: but it bugs me when people make sweeping and inaccurate accusations about other countries, but don't take a good look at the actions of their own nations. I don't make a stink over America's expansion and their actions: Manifest destiny. Frontier thesis. Annexation of Hawaii, Spanish colonies. Filling pits with Moro Indian villages (men, women, children) during the Spanish American wars in the Philippines. 100 year old history.
Nor do I make a stink about more recent American 'actions'.
Next summer I will go to Tibet by train. Whether they like it or not, Tibetans now enjoy one of the most expensive railroad projects ever undertaken carrying goods from the world's factory. It was paid for by the PRC, by people and businesses on the other side of China. Tibet has been exploited, but it will also enjoy benefits from being part of a world power. They don't grow opium, and tourism there is amazing.
Tibet is no longer an 'occupation' as far as I can see, any more than Hawaii is.
Does Canada occupy Quebec?
When did these stop being 'occupations'?
Iraq. Now that is an 'occupation' of another country.
I do however see hopes that the party will give up any of their control even to a democratic opposition as overly optimistic unless you are talking about more than 40 years in the future.I do see that China is a hopeful case, and one way to ensure it is not a menace to its neighbours and the world at large is through trade ties.Exactly. Here we completely agree my man.
Also agreed. Also, why move toward democracy (Tyranny of the Majority as Aristotle put it)...it's not working so great for us right now. ;-)
