So much for making you feel good about being a D&D player ... especially if you've stuck with the game since first edition days.
I don't need a video history of all the mechanics that have been time-wasters over the years.
All the 4E teaser video does is make you feel miserable for playing D&D in the first place. Who thinks up this stuff? What a marketing disaster.
The CORRECT video history would have focused on the positive innovations in the rules over the years ... and then pointed out that the changes we'll see in 4E are in the same tradition of D&D's creators always striving to enchance the playing experience.
In particular, the vid should have boasted about the good things about third edition, and then talked about coming "improvements" (i.e. grappling rules, 30-level character advancement, racial builds).
The "improvements remain to be seen, IMHO, but for argument's sake we'll take WoTC at its word.
The 4E teaser video, as well as other demos, can be seen at Youtube
Does anyone else think this was completely the wrong tact to take?
Thanks for posting the You Tube link. Is that what they showed at GenCon? I agree with you...... saying, "hey, everything this game has done before kinda sucked, but THIS time it's gonna be COOL" doesn't inspire much confidence.
And Thac0's not that hard.......
Just had to say it......
And who the hell is that guy with the strange accent speaking???
Stefan
Yeah. Seeing that made me feel dirty inside.
And who the hell is that guy with the strange accent speaking???
Stefan
He was the worst part of that whole video. I also wasn't too keen on the bashing of all the other versions of the game.
How is Racial Builds streamlining? Can you smell the splat books?
What really pisses me off about this is they act like back in the day we didn't make house rules to fix the flaws of each edition. The ONLY difference between what we did and what they are doing, is we didn't have the mechanics to put it into print.
And If I want to play D&D on-line, I'll ply the On-line D&D game or Warcraft...Or Lord of the Rings...or any of the thousand or so RPGs that are made for computers.
I will say that the on-line content seems cool, I don't like the idea of paying $40 for a book and then having to subscribe to a website just to get everything to play.
Also, Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that the three core books for this version aren't being released at the same time? I mean they're being released a month apart! What the Hell?
In reality, I'm sure I'll take a look at it, but I doubt it will make our group convert from 2E.
And for the record: My niece is 12. I've taught her how to calculate thaco, it's basic adding and subtracting positive and negative numbers. She's already learned this in sixth grade math. It's not rocket science.
And who the hell is that guy with the strange accent speaking???
I'm guessing that's Didier Monin. And isn't that Chris Perkins behind the DM's screen?
WotC employs some fricking brilliant game designers. However, the rest of the company appears to be run by monkeys. Marketing and Brand, in particular. I don't know about their software people: It could just be that Marketing and Brand aren't willing to listen to the developers.
I thought it was kind of funny in a really cheesy way. I don't know what was up with guy with acccent though. Come on you have to laugh or at least snikcer at the 3E grapple scene. You've all been there.
How is Racial Builds streamlining? Can you smell the splat books?
Hey, it's not only splat books (or endless online addendums) ....
30 levels is a lot of entries on a character sheet ... I mean, doesn't it sound they're going to have an accellerated experience/advancement chart?Player: I sneeze at the kobold ...
DM: Great. That's 500 XP. You're second level now.
Player: Wow! Man! Now I'm gonna slap that orc!
DM: Welcome to third level
When 3.0 came out they were realeased like that too. Except that monster manual came last I think. It didn't seem to me like any of the online stuff would be required to play the game. It is set up so that you can play perfectly fine with just the 3 core books. They aren't that stupid. However, the online stuff is extra fluff and "special features" that they hope to hook you in with. After all the dnd gamer consumer profile are the same people that will buy the Lord of the Rings trilogy and then the next year rebuy it when the extended special feature super dooper disk compilation is released complete with bookends and a duster. I'm sure they can get people on board if it is any good. Of course since they can't seem to get their preview website up and running...
What really pisses me off about this is they act like back in the day we didn't make house rules to fix the flaws of each edition. The ONLY difference between what we did and what they are doing, is we didn't have the mechanics to put it into print.
And If I want to play D&D on-line, I'll ply the On-line D&D game or Warcraft...Or Lord of the Rings...or any of the thousand or so RPGs that are made for computers.I will say that the on-line content seems cool, I don't like the idea of paying $40 for a book and then having to subscribe to a website just to get everything to play.
Also, Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that the three core books for this version aren't being released at the same time? I mean they're being released a month apart! What the Hell?
In reality, I'm sure I'll take a look at it, but I doubt it will make our group convert from 2E.
And for the record: My niece is 12. I've taught her how to calculate thaco, it's basic adding and subtracting positive and negative numbers. She's already learned this in sixth grade math. It's not rocket science.
Hey, it's not only splat books (or endless online addendums) ....
30 levels is a lot of entries on a character sheet ... I mean, doesn't it sound they're going to have an accellerated experience/advancement chart?
Agreed. 30 levels and every one 'meaningful'.
Come on you have to laugh or at least snikcer at the 3E grapple scene. You've all been there.
True enough.
But this isn't a look at gaming foibles.
This is, in a business sense, supposedly a serious effort to roll out a revised product whose core audience already is heavily invested in a previous version and may/may not "buy in." Knocking what customers have spent hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- of dollars on, and in their own words, millions of playtest hours on, is not in their best interest.
No other product -- in any business -- gets an opportunity like GenCon provides to reach its primary customer base immediately and in a meaningful way. And they are, in my opinion, blowing this opportunity. Blowing it.
I'm sorry to say it, because I truly wish it were otherwise, but I think WotC is less in touch with its core roleplaying audience than it was eight years ago.
Now maybe they see the brass ring -- an immense online customer base that is larger than its present core audience. Fine. But when speaking to your core audience, you'd better make a better effort at selling them on your stuff and making them feel good about what they've just spent good money on.
And you can be honest with your audience about your shortcomings -- and your efforts to improve product -- without denigrating the existing product line.
For example: Coke doesn't run commercials so you'll get up out of your seat and buy a Coke then and there. Coke runs commercials so you'll feel good about drinking Coke, about the refreshing experience of drinking a Coke, so that next time you're in a store, you'll remember that good feeling and buy a case.
So far, WotC's rollout doesn't leave a refreshing taste in my mouth -- and that's the shame of it.
Of course since they can't seem to get their preview website up and running...
That is just so Wizards these days. They really have no idea how to market this stuff. If it wasn't for the loyal fanbase I suspect they wouldn't sell a thing.
And you know, this is costing them dollars. Real dollars. And testing that loyalty, seriously testing that loyalty. And having the website down during the middle GenCon? What a failure, because it inspires no confidence in your customer base to deliver your digital initiative.
We saw this before when Wizards announced it wasn't renewing the Dragon and Dungeon licenses. The company learned NOTHING from that P.R. debacle. Nothing.
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Agreed. 30 levels and every one 'meaningful'.Hey, it's not only splat books (or endless online addendums) ....
30 levels is a lot of entries on a character sheet ... I mean, doesn't it sound they're going to have an accellerated experience/advancement chart?
May as well just go to 60 and call it what it is. An attempt to copy MMORPGs. Tome of Battle had a few elements of CCG and MMORPGs(and isn't bad, in small doses) so here is the new D&D! Like playing Everquest on paper....only WAY more of a startup cost and still with a monthly fee to get the online aspect! You would think that for $30 a book (expect that to be $40 or more for this edition) they could give you a freebie with the online Character creater and the virtual table. The more books you buy the more content you can access online. Not buy the 3 core, and all the suppliments and pay a monthly fee for a "SORRY, WE ARE EXPERIENCING TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES DUE TO OUR INEPTITUDE. HOPE YOU CAN GET YOUR ONLINE GROUP TOGETHER SOME OTHER TIME. THANKS FOR THE DOUGH$$$."
I liked the virtual table stuff and the character creation software, but that should be something that is part of the package. Buy the PHB, get the Character Creater access. Buy the DMG, get the virtual table access. Buy the MM get access to monster icons and online info. Buy a suppliment and get access to that info for the game online.
I would pay $40-$50 for the books with that attached.
I won't pay a monthly fee for Battlegrounds, FantasyGrounds, or Klooge, even a hyper-active version. I want to buy something and OWN it, not f&*king rent it. If I am ever late on a payment I lose out, if life eats my money, I lose a hobby that I invested 100s of dollars in if I don't have a physical group. F%$k that $hit!
Suck mine, Wizards.
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It looks like those infomercials where they show how horrid your life is before you buy their product. You know the one, where the poor housewife is crushed by the disorganized Tupperware lids, or the inept dad destroys an entire sheetrock wall trying to hang a picture?
I sure am glad that 4e has come along to help out morons like me.
I thought it was funny.
It was just gently poking fun at things we've all experienced.
It wasn't calling us fat losers or anything, just showing some of the travails we've all had with some of the more unwieldy rules.
I thought it was funny.
It was just gently poking fun at things we've all experienced.
It wasn't calling us fat losers or anything, just showing some of the travails we've all had with some of the more unwieldy rules.
I agree. There seems to be a lot of criticism of 4.0 and the rules haven't even come out yet. I think the video was just trying to make light of something so many people feel automatically defensive about. After all, it is just a game...
It wasn't calling us fat losers or anything, just showing some of the travails we've all had with some of the more unwieldy rules.
Yes, but did they tell you HOW they'd fixed that little problem? Did they even give you a clue?
Nah. Cause they don't want you to look under the hood of the car before you buy.
What are they afraid of? They need to show us something meaningful. I don't want promises. I want to know -- and so do a lot of customers.
What they're risking, is that you, and every other player, will say: "Fine, I'll wait for next year. "Until, then I'm gonna go play something else, because you've just told me that the game I'm playing has problems and, by extension, not worth my time."
They are risking that we'll go buy something else -- because there's no incensive to buy anymore 3.5 stuff. (Unless it's going to be compatible, and I've not heard that definitively, though I suspect it's true).
And that's the last thing they should want. If we turn to another product in the interim, they've lost.
Good point. We have no real way of knowing just how badly 4E sucks yet. :)
And that's the last thing they should want. If we turn to another product in the interim, they've lost.
Shhhhhh! I am banking on all your D20ers turning to something else. I will finally have players!
Good point. We have no real way of knowing just how badly 4E sucks yet. :)
Actually, we don't know if it's any good, either. It may be gamer gold.
That's the problem.
Now, maybe the answer to my concerns are on their website,
but we can't get to it!
Actually, we don't know if it's any good, either. It may be gamer gold.
Agreed. Given their track record I am willing to jump on the 'it sucks' bandwagon early.
As I said before, if they do away with classes I will reconsider my position and happily eat some crow.
And that's the last thing they should want. If we turn to another product in the interim, they've lost.
Do you really think they won't reveal more details before the book comes out next May? We'll know plenty by then.
That's how these things work. Big, flashy announcement of something a year away, then the year is spent slowly releasing new information to keep everyone interested and excited.
They can't just show us the entire thing and then be like "And now you have to wait a year to play it!"
THAT would be a marketing disaster.
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And that's the last thing they should want. If we turn to another product in the interim, they've lost.Do you really think they won't reveal more details before the book comes out next May? We'll know plenty by then.
That's how these things work. Big, flashy announcement of something a year away, then the year is spent slowly releasing new information to keep everyone interested and excited.
They can't just show us the entire thing and then be like "And now you have to wait a year to play it!"
THAT would be a marketing disaster.
Actually isnt the first Wizards Presents (a preview of 4th edition) scheduled for December? thats only 4 months away.
And that's the last thing they should want. If we turn to another product in the interim, they've lost.Do you really think they won't reveal more details before the book comes out next May? We'll know plenty by then.
That's how these things work. Big, flashy announcement of something a year away, then the year is spent slowly releasing new information to keep everyone interested and excited.
They can't just show us the entire thing and then be like "And now you have to wait a year to play it!"
THAT would be a marketing disaster.
I'm not asking for everything. I'm asking for something. I've seen nothing substantial.
As I said before, you never get a second chance at this. you certainly won't have audience like this to sell to in May.
I dunno what the hype is about really. They stated they've been working on 4E for the past 2 years. Just 3 years after 3.5E came out.
So when you guys are 3 years into this 4E crap, they'll be working on 5E.
And the cycle begins again...round and round we go! Where does it stop, nobody knows!
Except for me. 3.5E is where I'll be staying till I die, it seems. By then, we'll have seen 8th edition come and go.
3.5E was a good system that can easily be patched with the DI, but instead they chose to just throw the entire system out and make D&D into a huge MMORPG. Everything I hear about the rules just plain smacks "MMORPG" and "WoW". No RP, no story, no sense of psuedo-realism.
"Levels 1-30 now! Yay! A level cap increase!" Um, that's something I say when I play FFXI, not something I should say when I play D&D.
"This monster is a ranged-attacker, this one a spellcaster, this one a melee-attacker"...whatever happened to "This ogre mage has a wide array of magical abilities, be careful." Yeah, say goodbye to your traditional beholder, ogre mage, and rust monsters.
"We've ditched some races and classes you've all shown love for the past 3 editions because we want sexier roles now." More sacred cows being sacrificed---say goodbye to Paladin, Bard, and all the other cool new classes like Warmage, Spellthief, Knight, etc.
"Super fast gameplay and action!" Ok, now mummy rot will kill you in an hour instead of your group developing a side trek quest to save your dear ally from getting killed by the wasting disease. Again, less RP, less realism. The entire D&D world is going to turn into New York City all of a sudden? Everyone doing everything ASAP no matter what you're doing? Just so you can hack&slash faster than ever before.
4E is getting lame the more I hear about it. I'm starting to miss the days of TSR and WotC when Hasbro wasn't breathing down their necks to generate more revenue
I'm actually fairly optimistic about the new edition. There are plenty of things about 3rd edition that are way too complex. Even with adventure paths created for me by Paizo, I still do a LOT of work getting ready for each game session. So a simplified core rule set sounds really good to me.
However, I also see a huge opportunity to SAVE money here. Here's how I see it:
1) If they do things like they did with 3.0 and 3.5, the three core books will be OGL, but after that, (almost) everything else will be closed content.
2) Paizo will eventually convert to compatibility with 4th edition, but will only be able to use OGL material.
3) Therefore, if I intend to use Paizo materials, there's really no point in buying this D&D Insider membership, or buying any additional WotC splat-books. Those items won't be OGL, so won't be appearing in Pathfinder products.
So, I can buy the new Core books plus everything Pathfinder, and not miss out on a thing. If some occasional splat book catches my eye, I can still buy it, but with any luck, Paizo will do their own "splat-books" to help expand character options for Pathfinder. And if the rule set is simplified so WotC can code it into an application, but their character build application is subscription-only, I'm sure someone here can create an OGL character-builder (maybe even one that adds in any stuff that Paizo products introduce).
And since I run the game for our group, my entire gaming group will follow my lead if this is, in fact, the way that things go. If I say "core books plus Pathfinder only" then there won't be any point to them buying other splat-books, will there?
NOT a great marketing decision by WotC, making it so easy for me (and my entire group) to wash my hands of their splat-books. They're gonna have to do some pretty impressive marketing in the months before release if they want to hook me in. And for the past few years, their markting skills have been far from impressive.
"We've ditched some races and classes you've all shown love for the past 3 editions because we want sexier roles now." More sacred cows being sacrificed---say goodbye to Paladin, Bard, and all the other cool new classes like Warmage, Spellthief, Knight, etc.
Actually, I would be quite happy with removing classes. Go with a skill based system. However, I smell a half-(censored) attempt…something similar to roles in True20. Close, WotC. Keep trying.
I should join the IRA, while my righteous fury's all fired up. I could help 'em take back the motherland.
You're a little late. They're helping run the place now.
And since I run the game for our group, my entire gaming group will follow my lead if this is, in fact, the way that things go. If I say "core books plus Pathfinder only" then there won't be any point to them buying other splat-books, will there?
Are you kidding? Every race will have to be fully detailed out for 30 levels. They will only cram a handful in the PHB. That means every other cool race is going to be in splat books. That is just races. I shudder to think what they will do with 'roles'.
Are you kidding? Every race will have to be fully detailed out for 30 levels. They will only cram a handful in the PHB. That means every other cool race is going to be in splat books. That is just races. I shudder to think what they will do with 'roles'.
Right. But if those items are in additional books which aren't OGL, Pathfinder can't use them. So why should I? Why do all the work to add something non-OGL into my game if I'm running Pathfinder anyway? Instead, I'll just wait for Pathfinder to develop its own set of new races, classes, and whatever else.
Of course, that assumes that splat-books will be non-OGL. If they add them to the OGL and Pathfinder uses them, that changes the equation rather substantially. But we won't know the answer to that for at least a year, and that's a whole year in which I (and others) can start getting used to the idea that we only want to use OGL in our games for the new edition. If I assume for the next year that I should avoid extra splat-books, that makes it even harder, a year from now, for some gifted marketing type to convince me otherwise.
And who the hell is that guy with the strange accent speaking???
I'm guessing that's Didier Monin. And isn't that Chris Perkins behind the DM's screen?
I played a couple of D&D sessions with Didier (along with a few other TSR/WotC folk) a few years back. Cool guy, was running a really cool DM's tool program on his laptop that he wrote. I know he used to be work on the Magic: the Gathering side of things, I wonder if he's involved in the online gametable app?
- Chris Shadowens
So much for making you feel good about being a D&D player ... especially if you've stuck with the game since first edition days.
I don't need a video history of all the mechanics that have been time-wasters over the years.
All the 4E teaser video does is make you feel miserable for playing D&D in the first place. Who thinks up this stuff? What a marketing disaster.
The CORRECT video history would have focused on the positive innovations in the rules over the years ... and then pointed out that the changes we'll see in 4E are in the same tradition of D&D's creators always striving to enchance the playing experience.
Does anyone else think this was completely the wrong tact to take?
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Yes, I agree that it was the wrong approach. The 4E teaser video was poorly constructed in almost every way.
Unfortunately, the GenCon presentation by WoTC was also uninspiring.
I hope Pathfinder and GameMastery Modules stay firmly on the side of version 3.5 of D&D.
I just love the hype and hysteria, and how people will now think they're required to go out and spend thousands over several years to replace what they already own, only with shiny new 4e on the covers, no grappling rules, and many other obscure and useless rules changes no one in their right minds would pay good money for when one good brainstorming session between friends can do that.
But you 4orons keep on keeping on. Fight the good fight; just don't grapple.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'm staying out of this: I never even heard of 4E until last week, I'm not aware of what's going down at GenCOn this year, and, quite frankly, I have more important things to worry about at the moment than whether or not 4E will pass or fail. Call me again when I get back home next summer.
I won't pay a monthly fee for Battlegrounds, FantasyGrounds, or Klooge, even a hyper-active version. I want to buy something and OWN it, not f&*king rent it.
Not for nothing *keeps head down and out of the line of fire* but Fantasy Grounds is a one-time purchase (which I bought but have yet to play a game with), no monthly fee needed. Updates are free, too. I can't speak for the other 2 you mention, however.
I now return you to your rant:
Suck mine, Wizards.
*gets out of the line of fire again*
- Chris Shadowens
I just found a new reason to be insulted. This paragraph, found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20070816a.
The future (only nine months away!) contains the same D&D we all play on a regular basis. It’s still going to be a tabletop roleplaying game. It’s still set in a medieval fantasy world of magic and monsters. It’s still the d20 Game System. But the rulebooks appear more vibrant, more visually stunning, and much easier to use. The game mechanics have been amped up to eliminate the game-stoppers, accentuate the fun factors, and make play faster and more exciting. In the future (now only eight months, 29 days, 23 hours, and 50 minutes from now!) D&D Insider provides its members with immediate access to Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine, to enhanced and expanded content tied to the newest physical book products, to an amazing suite of digital tools to make Dungeon Master preparation and campaign management easier to handle, to a Character Creator that provides not only an interactive character sheet but a visualizer that lets you determine the exact look of the characters you create—and, D&D Insider provides a digital D&D Game Table that turns the Internet into your kitchen table.
First, they seem to think all gamer geeks are countdown watching linesitters.
Second, they seem to think it takes us ten minutes to read to read a few sentences.I realize I'm being real nitpicky, but Wizards is handling this so poorly.