4orons
I believe we have a new meme.
If you want a streamlined classless system, why not just play GURPS or Hero System? It sounds like WotC is taking the D&D out of D&D.
I do.
I thought it was kind of funny in a really cheesy way. I don't know what was up with guy with acccent though. Come on you have to laugh or at least snikcer at the 3E grapple scene. You've all been there.
Come on. That just isn't fair.
The Grapple rules are no "clunkier," or "difficult," than any other tactical option. (Trip, Charge, etc.)
The problem is that few people consider it cool or useful enough to try and learn the rules.
How much more streamlined can you get than:
- Provoke AoO - unless you have Improved Grapple
- Make a touch attack
- Make opposed grapple checks - essentially touch attacks with different size modifiers
- Make Escape check.
My only thought on streamlining that would be to... remove it. And if grapple is getting "streamlined" what else is?
Aside: I have this unfounded gut feeling that all of the tactical options, that are open to everyone currently, are going to be transfered to the martial classes "meaningful" levels. Want to charge? Wrong class. Want to trip? You need 5 levels in that other class.
Why do I feel that might happen? Because it streamlines play. There is no need for everyone to learn all of the tactical maneuvers, and when a character gains it as an advancement, you can be pretty sure that the player will study up on what s/he can now do.
I won't pay a monthly fee for Battlegrounds, FantasyGrounds, or Klooge, even a hyper-active version. I want to buy something and OWN it, not f&*king rent it. If I am ever late on a payment I lose out, if life eats my money, I lose a hobby that I invested 100s of dollars in if I don't have a physical group. F%$k that $hit!
I agree. If I wanted that, I would have bought Dundjin or one of the other programs like it and had it on my PC. So far, Wizards has talked alot of smack about how great their on-line content is going to be, but they have nothing to show us, just like when they took Dungeon and Dragon mags in house. It doesn't instill confidnece.
I thought it was funny.
It was just gently poking fun at things we've all experienced.
It wasn't calling us fat losers or anything, just showing some of the travails we've all had with some of the more unwieldy rules.
No, it was saying "Sorry the rest of the products D&D's made sucked so bad, but trust us. We'll get it right this time." IT's also them treating us like we're too stupid to fix the flaws in the game without their help. House rules have always been part of the game, and they always will be. They don't have to change the rules every couple of years to fix that.
I dunno what the hype is about really. They stated they've been working on 4E for the past 2 years. Just 3 years after 3.5E came out.
So when you guys are 3 years into this 4E crap, they'll be working on 5E.
And the cycle begins again...round and round we go! Where does it stop, nobody knows!
The reality is this is really version 6. Basic, AD&D, AD&D 2E, D&D 3.0, D&D 3.5, and D&D 4.0. The question is how much of 3.5 game play are they going to scrap? 90% like they did from 2nd to 3rd? or a small tweek like 3.0 to 3.5? With all this streamlineing that they were talking about, sounds like I need to blow the dust off my basic box set.
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I won't pay a monthly fee for Battlegrounds, FantasyGrounds, or Klooge, even a hyper-active version. I want to buy something and OWN it, not f&*king rent it.Not for nothing *keeps head down and out of the line of fire* but Fantasy Grounds is a one-time purchase (which I bought but have yet to play a game with), no monthly fee needed. Updates are free, too. I can't speak for the other 2 you mention, however.
I now return you to your rant:
Suck mine, Wizards.*gets out of the line of fire again*
- Chris Shadowens
I was making a comparision between the 4E online stuff and those programs. I was saying that it would be stupid to pay monthly for those programs. When you buy a program you should own it, not rent it like a MMORPG. I realized that none of those programs mentioned are a monthly fee and I was trying to state that I wouldn't pay monthly for them even if they were a super-good version of themselves, like what WOTCost is offering.
Suck mine, Wizards. Again.
FH
And since I run the game for our group, my entire gaming group will follow my lead if this is, in fact, the way that things go. If I say "core books plus Pathfinder only" then there won't be any point to them buying other splat-books, will there?Are you kidding? Every race will have to be fully detailed out for 30 levels. They will only cram a handful in the PHB. That means every other cool race is going to be in splat books. That is just races. I shudder to think what they will do with 'roles'.
Do the math on how many thousands of prestige classes there are for 3.5...! It could be a monster.
All those videos were pretty terrible to watch, apart from the information they contained. That joke video was just...embarassing. Amusing home-video kind of joke, but I wouldn't want it publicized in any way. WotC should spend some money and get other people to market their stuff, because putting up line managers to do this song-and-dance is really off-putting. There's a reason major corporations don't send their engineers out to do commercials about how cool their products are. You just saw that reason.
Krypter said it best.
I just love the hype and hysteria, and how people will now think they're required to go out and spend thousands over several years to replace what they already own, only with shiny new 4e on the covers, no grappling rules, and many other obscure and useless rules changes no one in their right minds would pay good money for when one good brainstorming session between friends can do that.
But you 4orons keep on keeping on. Fight the good fight; just don't grapple.
Lol, speak for yourself.
Thousands? I spent 75 bucks on three core books. I don't regret spendig anything on Dungeon and Dragon. I write the rest of my crap myself, convert my old Greyhawk stuff, and print up house additions for my players. I can afford to buy the rules, for consideration alone, without feeling cheated.
What a marketing disaster, though. Geeks.
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(...) 30 levels is a lot of entries on a character sheet ... I mean, doesn't it sound they're going to have an accellerated experience/advancement chart?
Player: I sneeze at the kobold ...
DM: Great. That's 500 XP. You're second level now.
Player: Wow! Man! Now I'm gonna slap that orc!
DM: Welcome to third level
For your information:
"They touched upon the 30 levels (divided into three tiers: heroic, paragon and epic)" -> Sounds like integration of epic levels.Here is the link., have a look at the big bad evil WotC homepage or at the enworld.org summaries and you don't have to speculate... ;-)
have a look at the big bad evil WotC homepage or at the enworld.org summaries and you don't have to speculate... ;-)
Until I see a progression chart (whether it's based on XP or something else), I'm forced to speculate.
There were no specifics in the aforementioned link. Just vague hints.
But I am glad to see that their website is back up -- that way the whole weekend is not a total loss.
4oronsI believe we have a new meme.
I vote we shorten it to "4ons" to rhyme with "morons."
Too many syllables in the original version.
And what is up with that name "Gleemax"??
Glee = maliciously, gloating
Yeah, seemed to go well in line with that "you have all been soo stupid doing grapplings, ThAC0 etc..".
Still i suppose there is one saving feature, the free dungeon and dragons... And i bet this was considered to be the best value producing real advertisement that they could come up with.
Rather than some feel good ads, which they obviously have no idea how to make..
Player: I sneeze at the kobold ...
DM: Great. That's 500 XP. You're second level now.
Player: Wow! Man! Now I'm gonna slap that orc!
DM: Welcome to third level
That's the way we already feel about 3/3.5e; every few encounters you "clear the board and level up." There are characters who get a new spell, and by the time they get to try it out, they're already 6 levels higher and the spell is obsolete. Levelling up ONCE per adventure is fast enough for me, thanks. If 4e is FASTER than 3e, I'll houserule that all XP requirements are "whatever the table says, squared."
Also, Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that the three core books for this version aren't being released at the same time? I mean they're being released a month apart! What the Hell?
You kids have it easy!
When *I* started the Monster Manual came out in December of 1977, the Player's Handbook in June of 1978 and the Dungeon Master's Guide in August of 1979!That's 20 months to get all 3!
Cap'n Frank
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So much for making you feel good about being a D&D player ... especially if you've stuck with the game since first edition days.
I don't need a video history of all the mechanics that have been time-wasters over the years.
You know what irked me the most? I've played for about 23 or 24 years through every edition up to the current one. I've played with a couple of dozen different folks and have about another dozen I know who play or played in the past but not with me.
You know what?
No one used miniatures before 3.0. NOT ONE. I know some of you may have had differing experiences, and I'm sure some of the crusty old-timers may have used them in the game's earliest days (pre-AD&D). But I just don't think it was that common. Drawing your character or doodling a map were much more likely events. The entire sequence with the clothes pin and the eraser really got me POd. Don't even get me started with battle mats and wet-erase markers in the 80's.
Why am I making a big deal about this? It really doesn't matter, but more than anything else, I think this shows Wizards disconnect with the core of the hobby and the gamers themselves. The tone was wrong, the content was wrong, and most of all, the approach was wrong.
You know what? No one used miniatures before 3.0. NOT ONE. I know some of you may have had differing experiences, and I'm sure some of the crusty old-timers may have used them in the game's earliest days (pre-AD&D). But I just don't think it was that common. Drawing your character or doodling a map were much more likely events.
Amen, brother. We all brought them to the game table when we were 10 years old playing 1st ed. AD&D, then finally abandoned them when we realized they weren't really getting used.
Count me not in the non-miniatures-using club. I used them as much as I could afford from the very start (1981). Mind you, the collection I had back then was of necessity very small, but if I could save a bit of money to get more, I did. Yeah, there were times when we just used a coin, a die, or even a Monopoly token for miniatures, but at heart my groups always enjoyed (and still do) that part of the game.
Now, before we get off of the tangent I'm indulging in, I'm not supporting that stupid teaser video with the guy narrating it in a retarded quasi-French accent. And the guys playing the game that couldn't grasp the rules for Grappling was just irksome. I mean it's a bit complex, but a couple times using the rules, and you should have it down. Total 'tards!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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No one used miniatures before 3.0. NOT ONE. I know some of you may have had differing experiences, and I'm sure some of the crusty old-timers may have used them in the game's earliest days (pre-AD&D). But I just don't think it was that common. Drawing your character or doodling a map were much more likely events. The entire sequence with the clothes pin and the eraser really got me POd. Don't even get me started with battle mats and wet-erase markers in the 80's.
Ah yes, back when movement really didn't make a difference because no one really knew where they were or where anyone else was or how much difference separated the two. I have fond memories of the paper map with vague scribbles ("this is a tree") more scribbles ("okay, so he moved here, let me draw a line showing that") and the resulting disputes ("wait, is this 'O' still alive? I thought we killed him.")
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Paizo is a customer-friendly company. I am proud of their print quality, creativity and customer service. I remember how, after a few years of not playing, I was drawn back into the game by the enhancements Erik Mona and his team made to Dungeon magazine. Now, I am experiencing the same quality with the Paizo modules and Pathfinder. I see a pattern of success here, and no wonder—the guy who's childhood dream was to work on Dragon magazine is now the publisher! As for me, I encourage everyone to support Paizo and ditch the other company. Since 1983 I've been playing a game in which "kill the wizards" has been a recurring theme, perhaps there is ironic parallel in what our community should do by withdrawing consumer support from the other company. In a game revolving around heroes - I now see tyrants, bungling and grubbing tyrants who have had their souls magic-jarred by the forces of greed and incompetence. I agree that the 4E teaser video was a disaster. I could not help but also notice the discomfort of the presenters - what had they to hide that made them so nervous? I have no eloquent marketing explanation why, but just wanted to also share my deep disappointment in the controversial 4E teaser video. As role players, shouldn't we be able to recognize when when we've been asked to play the role of a fool. Shine on role-play community! For years I'd been such a purist, and would never consider materials that were not canon—those days are over, ...what a fool I'd been. Now, the same great writers are writing impressive OGL materials at Paizo. From the many posts I've been reading, it seems that change is not the issue but rather the integrity of what used to be the 'only game in town.'
I'm sure some of the crusty old-timers may have used them in the game's earliest days (pre-AD&D).
Yep, that's me the crusty old-timer.
My friend got the blue box for Christmas 1976 and I started Dming New Year's Eve.I had a 4 ft by 8 ft table that was for a HO train set but I promptly ripped up all the tracks and drew 2 inch squares with a magic marker.
I then pounded in a nail at each cross-point and used rubber bands to lay out rooms as the PCs went into them.
I was using minis from Grenadier for PCs but used plastic dinosaurs for Chimeras, etc. and a couple of Star Wars Jawas acted as Ogres or Giants.
The eraser and clothes pin seemed very familiar to me.
After several close calls where nails went flying I pulled them all out and painted the table with chalk-board paint. My first edition books still smell of chalk.
I wish I had some pictures from those days :(
I thought the 4E trailer was mildly-amusing, but the D&D PSAs you can watch on YouTube are much better. The video would have been great if while the French guy was talking have Lidda pop-up behind him "Sneak Attack!"
No one used miniatures before 3.0. NOT ONE. I know some of you may have had differing experiences, and I'm sure some of the crusty old-timers may have used them in the game's earliest days (pre-AD&D). But I just don't think it was that common.
Yeah, for the most part, our games didn't use minis. When on the rare occasion we did (I gamed for a short time with some old-time wargamer types who brought in those figs), it was always more abstract. There was no grid or battlemap, and the figs were used simply to show relative position to one another. But they never moved or represented actual tactical movement.
Most of the time it was just tokens (pennies, chess pieces, etc), or penciled X's on the players' maps (Remember when the players were expected to keep detailed maps of the dungeon on graph paper?) to show position.
(This is all ironic, because since 3.0, I've become heavily invested in metal figs. I love 'em, love to paint 'em, love to use 'em, love to display 'em. But they've never become the end-all-be-all to my gaming experience.)
But you know, I've watched and re-watched that video, and that part still isn't the most offensive section. I think I lost it when I watched the 2E/AD&D bit.
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My group has also always used minis of some sort. Granted there was no grid, and one inch was always five feet, and I always hand-drew the battle surface on whatever paper was at hand, on the fly. All those Grenadier and Ral Partha figs are now halflings if they get any love in my game today. In a way, the shift of scale in minis probably cost me more than this new shift in rules will cost. My old dwarf minis now look like bearded and armored halfling children when placed on the board with reaper figs.
On the XP thing, I'm completely with you Kirth. I've started slowing my game down to minimize leveling. It happens too fast and most of my players consider it a chore. As long as the story keeps moving and stays interesting, I think my players would be happy maxing out around 7th level and staying there forever. Where we've run the APs, we usually bail at about the half-way mark. 30 levels?! That may very well be the least attractive part of this new edition for me and my players.
Oh well, the Pathfinder stuff will make being patient much easier. I'll give 4e a fair shake when it comes out (if Paizo switches, as I'm assuming they will). But when I told my group about the big announcement, I got a chorus of boos. If we change, it will be because I convinced my players it was a good idea. I think alot of us will go on playing 3.5 for a long time after 4e comes out. If conversions are really hard to do (as the rumor goes), then I don't envy the position Paizo and other third parties have been placed in by the announcement.
I won't pay a monthly fee for Battlegrounds, FantasyGrounds, or Klooge, even a hyper-active version. I want to buy something and OWN it, not f&*king rent it.Not for nothing *keeps head down and out of the line of fire* but Fantasy Grounds is a one-time purchase (which I bought but have yet to play a game with), no monthly fee needed. Updates are free, too. I can't speak for the other 2 you mention, however.
Just to clarify, NONE of the commercial virtual tabletop programs use a subscription model. You pay once for the software and that's it.
Ghost Orb was going to be subscription-based. It never made it out of beta.
WotC's Game Table will be the ONLY subscription-based virtual tabletop offering.
For those who want to steer clear of a subscription-based virtual tabletop, I invite you to take a look at Battlegrounds. It runs on both Windows and Macs (and on Linux under WINE).
I won't pay a monthly fee for Battlegrounds, FantasyGrounds, or Klooge, even a hyper-active version. I want to buy something and OWN it, not f&*king rent it.Not for nothing *keeps head down and out of the line of fire* but Fantasy Grounds is a one-time purchase (which I bought but have yet to play a game with), no monthly fee needed. Updates are free, too. I can't speak for the other 2 you mention, however.Just to clarify, NONE of the commercial virtual tabletop programs use a subscription model. You pay once for the software and that's it.
Ghost Orb was going to be subscription-based. It never made it out of beta.
WotC's Game Table will be the ONLY subscription-based virtual tabletop offering.
For those who want to steer clear of a subscription-based virtual tabletop, I invite you to take a look at Battlegrounds. It runs on both Windows and Macs (and on Linux under WINE).
Battlegrounds looks sweet- will definately be talking to my group about this!