Hmmmm.... This post is interesting. As stated above:
From the looks of things over on ENWorld, this is looking a lot like an announcement for 4th edition.
Gleemax briefly had a forum for D&D 4E that they shut down, but not before someone snapped a scrrencap of it and posted it over on this enworld thread:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3702448&postcount=217
If you look at the screen shot of the NEW forums on WotC, you'll notice 2 things:
1) forum title is D&D 4th Edition (Duh)
2) There is a forum thread all ready to go for OGL/D20 License
Seems to be that maybe 4E will be OGL as well?!
This was a crappy day for me BEFORE I came home, bought the last issue of Dungeon, and (I guess) found out the 4e news, so I'm in a dour mood. Anybody want to bet quatloos on how many posts before this thread goes up like a wickerman on a Donnie and Marie Celtic Halloween Special?
I bet 200 quatloos that it goes up 17 posts from now.
Ignore that Sebastion fellow Heathy. It's about 85 Aussie quatoloos for every US Shizenswizzle.
What I hate most about 3.5
The power-curve. Each supplement means new powers and abilities. It means new rules and mechanics. It means ambigious text and circular refrences. It means power gaming.
What I love most about 4.0
Clear slate. We just hit the reset button. It means everyone is on the same playing field. It means drawing from the best and dropping the worst from 3.5. It means a breath of fresh air.
This means that I likely won't be buying Iron Heroes (currently in my shopping cart here at Paizo store), and that I might undertake the design and writing chore of a lifetime in updating the classic Powers & Perils game we played in the mid and late 80's for personal use.
A strange day for me to get the announcement of 4th edition. I just got my copy of Dragon #359, read through it and waxed nostalgic, logged on...sucker-punched! I'll keep comments as to what I think about it to myself, until I know a lot more information. But. If in any way it's a threat to Paizo, though, I will hate WOTC forever...and probably never buy their new stuff. I do still have a ton of 3.5 stuff, between books and magazines; enough to last me for years to come.
The bald guy at the top looks to me like the pic of a divine mind from complete psionic.
How strange that this announcement should come before the release of Rules Compendium... who's going to pay for a 3.5 rules compendium now??
Maybe 4th edition will finally come with a decent conversion kit. The spare room where all my computers go to die has piles and piles of D&D ephemera from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and now soon to be 3.5 editions.
Tell you what, I'm glad I didn't buy PH3.5 last month when I had some spare cash. I almost did but I thought nah, I can get by on PH3.0 for a bit longer.
we've all been trained from the last edition swaps to expect that 4e = death of 3e/3.5 as far as WotC is concerned. But, back in the day, 1e/2e products coexisted during a transition period.
It's not entirely far-fetched that wizards might continue a 3.5 line. Stranger things have happened. A Greyhawk line would be particularly well suited to such a product.
Your optimism is somewhat refreshing...
But there is a little problem to your train of thought.
1st Edition to 2nd Edition was a different company. (TSR)
2nd Edition to 3rd Edition was a different company. (WoTC)
And now 3rd Edition to 4th Edition is yet a different company. (Hasbro)
So we can't make any analogies based on the past. Different companies have different objectives, and methods to accomplish those objectives.
Of course, that very thought means we can't rule out "dual production" of it's lines...
But come on. Announcing 4th Edition will likely kill 3rd. Either the 4th Ed hopefuls will stop buying 3rd in anticipation... Or the 4th Ed haters will stop buying 3rd Ed in boycott.
But that is just my take on it...
I just wanted to look for a picture of the runehound on the Wizards homepage this morning and thought "what the hell..." Returning to paizo and finding this thread was a real eye-opener. So, the withdrawal of Dungeon and Dragon, of Dragonlance and Ravenloft was probably in preparation for 4e, as was anticipated at that time. And of course, 4e is announced the very last moment, as sales of 3.5 will plummet the very moment they announce 4e. Thats just business logic.
I´m relaxed with that, actually. It was as inevitable as the next sunrise, as it is business logic. Face it, the biggest sales were always the players handbooks (or other basic rules). At some point, it gets more and more difficult to sell them, as the market is nearly saturated. So, launch a new one is the solution - and hey, it did work with the previous editions. And as the last version was called 3.5, it was even more obvious that an update had to follow sometime.
As for form - well, I´m no fan of digital RPG in any form (yes, I´m pretty old-fashioned). To me, face-to-face is true roleplaying, and no digital anything will change that. It is as much coming together with friends as playing the game these days.
For the rules themselves - they were in need of re-organization andclarification anyway, as there were already some bugs in it, and they were spread over too many books again. I´m just worried that the time frame for major rules updates seems to get shorter - both 1e and 2e were around for about 10 years, and 3.0 lived three, and 3.5 four years.
They will still have classes in it, as this is one core principle of the D&D game. I will wait and see what can be told after GenCon, and I will have a look at it at the Essen Spiele Messe, if anything it published by then.
I am worried about companies like paizo. They have to follow suit to stay on the market - do or die, it is. I just hope that the changes are not as radical as they were from 2e to 3e, as reworking all the old stuff (and for old farts like me, retroconverting from 4e in the future) can be quite some work...
Oh well...
Stefan
Well, we know whatever they do they plan on using dice, 'cause they have a picture of dice, so we can rule the 8-ball out, Heathansson.
That Star Wars Saga was smoothed out but left backwards compatible reduces the stress of watching that dumb timer because I can cling to my hopes that they aren't going to really f+&~ everything up.
But a timer? What do they think we are waiting for, Spiderman 4? X-Men 4? It will run out about 4 am my local time. ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Have fun guys, assail that website! Storm the boards! Watch out for those Gleemax seizures, though.
Well, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they learned from the last backlash and are finally going to do something that doesn't piss people off. It'll help me sleep better.
Damn. I really don't care if they bring out a new edition, I haven't bought much from WotC lately anyway, so it's no biggie.
Unfortunately, it means my Pathfinder and GameMastery subscriptions only last as long a 3E does (assuming surely that Paizo makes the change to 4E when it comes out). That's sad. :(
Face it, the biggest sales were always the players handbooks (or other basic rules). At some point, it gets more and more difficult to sell them, as the market is nearly saturated. So, launch a new one is the solution - and hey, it did work with the previous editions. And as the last version was called 3.5, it was even more obvious that an update had to follow sometime.
Good point: I never thought about that... (Backwards compatible please please)
To me, face-to-face is true roleplaying, and no digital anything will change that.
I'm willing to give their digital Dungeon and Dragon a chance. I have a seriously large monitor and a really comfy chair... What I am wondering is, what are they going to do to support PBP games. A little bit of software could go a long way to smooth out PBP. That would be a digital initiative a bunch of people around here might appreciate, although it would hurt the Paizo boards.
there were already some bugs in it, and they were spread over too many books again. I´m just worried that the time frame for major rules updates seems to get shorter - both 1e and 2e were around for about 10 years, and 3.0 lived three, and 3.5 four years.
Word.
What I am wondering is, we have the Rules Compendium coming out AND they are announcing 4th Ed (we are assuming this?)
Does the right hand know what the left hand is doing?
Wait: Rules Compendium is for those of us who won't buy 4th. N'est ce pas?
Wait: Rules Compendium is for those of us who won't buy 4th. N'est ce pas?
Welllll.... I´m not holding my breath for it, but if WotC really does a Rules Compendium collecting all the basic and additional rules for 3.5 (swift and immediate action, anyone?) in one book, that would be a sure buy for me. If it just contains lots and lots of additional rules on, say grappling, charging and miniatures use, I´ll pass it.
Stefan
And as the last version was called 3.5, it was even more obvious that an update had to follow sometime.
That sort of "Microsoft mentality" comes with diminishing returns, unfortunately. How many people will pass over 4.0, hedging their bets that a D&D 4.5 will come out in a year? Why put out $120 on the core set of the brand new system, when I can wait until the bugginess has been play-tested out...
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This does the trick.
I'm 32 years old, and even if I wasn't there (as a player) to witness the transition from 1st to 2nd edition, I have lived through the later evolution of the D&D saga.
The bunch of settings - some good, some bad - TSR self-implosion market strategy, the first WotC rehaul, the advent of Hasbro and the ugly power creep of the latest stuff they put out.
I enjoyed immensely the game, both from official books and from the veritable mountain of OGL supplements I bought.
But that's enough.
I'm tired of constantly having to seek the latest supplement 'cause there is a new feat or a new PrC that fits a villain or a hero or a NPC or whatever. Don't even get me started about the mighty wizard or the heroic fighter core classes hopelessly outpowered by new stylish and soulless options.
Matters such as a fulltime job that constantly erodes away my spare time, a couple of brand new hobbies, and all those boring real-life problems don't help either.
I will continue to support Paizo, a company that has put out some of the best gaming material ever. I hope that Pathfinder or the Gamemastery modules won't turn 4th Ed. for a long time, but this is more a economical and marketing matter, and I hope for the best of Paizo, so a fanboy rantings should be valued for what they are.
When the inevitable will happen, I'll have to make a decision.
Until then, I will stay a proud Paizonian, and keep away from the new rules edition. I have amassed enough rules and supplements and options to last a decade. I also feel a longing for my beloved d100 system Call of Cthulhu.
Maybe I'll skip straight to the Fifth Ed. rules!
See you in Varisia, friends.
How strange that this announcement should come before the release of Rules Compendium... who's going to pay for a 3.5 rules compendium now??
Thats whats bugging me too. This makes no sense. I guess maybe we'll know more tomorrow but something is missing from this puzzle.
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Yeah ... I'm not going to say "I'll never switch to 4th edition," but it would really have to be the bee's knees with bells on for me to defect anytime soon.
I have enough 3.5 (and 3, and 2nd edition) stuff to last me for a long, long, time, and should I decide I need more there's some good Games Mastery and Pathfinder stuff that's still 3.5 (at least at this stage) that I can get hold of.
Assuming I do make the switch (which I can't see me doing at this stage, but never say never) I reckon I'll hold out at least a couple of years till they come out with 4.5.
And as the last version was called 3.5, it was even more obvious that an update had to follow sometime.That sort of "Microsoft mentality" comes with diminishing returns, unfortunately. How many people will pass over 4.0, hedging their bets that a D&D 4.5 will come out in a year? Why put out $120 on the core set of the brand new system, when I can wait until the bugginess has been play-tested out...
Yeah, but... it will work out. There are always enough people wanting to have the "newest of the new", just for the sake of being new. Its the same with new software, new cars etc. There are some people saying "I´ll just wait until they got the bugs out of the system.", and others saying "I don´t care if it has bugs, I want the shiny new stuff NOW!" Even the newest current Microsoft software always sells like crazy, even though everyone knows that it will have bugs.
So, I don´t think that this will be a big problem.
Stefan
For right now, I will stick with 3.5 ed. ~looks at my bookshelf~ Hmnn... 45+ hardbound rules books, 70+ issues of Dungeon, 150+ issues of Dragon, the Gamemastery Modules, Pathfinder, other modules. How much does that add up to in dollar amount? Why would I switch to 4.0 ed. when I have so much invested in 3.5 ed.? Oh, I may get the Players guide just so I can join in on a game, but go whole hog into 4.0? Not right now. I will play the wait and see game. Besides, I still have other 3.5 books that I want to get.
I have dispatch a legion of assassins and super ninja whores whom will unleash hell at my orders, once that "Clock" strikes 00.00.00
I hope it's cool.
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4E Press Release
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193
First two supplements, on sale 18 December 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Presents-Classes-Michele-Carter/dp/0786948019 /ref=sr_1_1/104-2547240-0596738?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187252071& sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Presents-World-Monsters-Supplement/dp/0786948 027/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/104-2547240-0596738?ie=UTF8&qid=1187252071& ;sr=8-1
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4E Press Release
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193
First two supplements, on sale 18 December 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Presents-Classes-Michele-Carter/dp/0786948019 /ref=sr_1_1/104-2547240-0596738?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187252071& sr=8-1http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Presents-World-Monsters-Supplement/dp/0786948 027/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/104-2547240-0596738?ie=UTF8&qid=1187252071& ;sr=8-1
Streamlined rules (not "more logical" or "more balanced"; just streamlined), even more ties with miniatures on the tabletop, and that... *BLEEP* thing that has to do with being connected 24/7 to get tools, rules and whatever.
This is not a richer game. This is a nerfed one.
Like I said, unless they can knock my socks off (don't even try Heathy), I will wait untill the "bugs" are worked out and maybe not even then.
4E Press Release
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193
First two supplements, on sale 18 December 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Presents-Classes-Michele-Carter/dp/0786948019 /ref=sr_1_1/104-2547240-0596738?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187252071& sr=8-1http://www.amazon.com/Wizards-Presents-World-Monsters-Supplement/dp/0786948 027/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/104-2547240-0596738?ie=UTF8&qid=1187252071& ;sr=8-1
Err... These adresses don´t work, says amazon.com. Can anybody please either provide working links or summarize the content?
Stefan
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Streamlined rules (not "more logical" or "more balanced"; just streamlined), even more ties with miniatures on the tabletop, and that... *BLEEP* thing that has to do with being connected 24/7 to get tools, rules and whatever.
This is not a richer game. This is a nerfed one.
I waited until close to the last second to subscribe to Pathfinder. There's only so much space for the RPG stuff, and I didn't know where the new WotC *and* Paizo stuff would go. Well, thanks to this brilliant move from WotC, I no longer have that problem. No way am I getting bogged down into another edition of D&D. I have 1E through 3.5E, along with the old TSR D&D system, in more boxes and shelves than I want to think about. And if the new D&D is close to the Star Wars Saga Edition, which I'm sure it will be, they can keep it on general principle- I just simply wasn't impressed with the changes. It had all the feel of a game produced by people who doubted the intelligence of their customers.
As long as Pathfinder is 3.5, it'll be my new campaign setting.
Err... These adresses don´t work, says amazon.com. Can anybody please either provide working links or summarize the content?
Stefan
You can just go to amazon.com and search for "wizards present". According to amazon.com the release date is December 18, 2007!
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Err... These adresses don´t work, says amazon.com. Can anybody please either provide working links or summarize the content?Stefan
I just checked the links, they're still working on my end. But here's what they say...
Wizard's Presents: Classes and Races
A behind-the-scenes exploration of the Dungeons & Dragons(R) game.
This lavishly illustrated book gives roleplaying game fans a unique, behind-the-curtain glimpse into the making of the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game. The book contains essays and asides from the game's premier designers, developers, and editors. Through words and illustrations, it explores some of the D&D game's most iconic races and classes, sharing insights never before revealed in any previous game product.
Wizard's Presents: World and Monsters
A behind-the-scenes exploration of the D&D game.
This lavishly illustrated 96-page book gives roleplaying game fans a unique, behind-the-screen glimpse into the making of the Dungeons & Dragons(R) roleplaying game.
The book contains essays and asides from the game's premier designers, developers, and editors. Through words and illustrations, it explores some of the D&D game's most iconic locations and monsters, sharing insights never before revealed in any previous game product.
Amazon has a funny referrer in their links. Try these:
Go to World and Monsters.
Go to Classes and Races.
EDIT: Corrected the first link, which was a duplicate
Thank you all for the links and text. It does not say that much, in fact.
Well, I´ll wait and see.
Stefan
I have dispatch a legion of assassins and super ninja whores whom will unleash hell at my orders, once that "Clock" strikes 00.00.00
I hope it's cool.
Godspeed assassins and super ninja whores.
(Listening to all the investment testimonials about 3/3.5 Ed., I'm thinking that gamers have a lot of money these days. Now I'm thinking wistfully back to the days (early 80s)I saved up for Palace of the Silver Princess and Isle of Dread)
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Oh well. I'm vaguely annoyed, if not overly surprised. I'll have to have a look and see what I think, but I resent having my D&D collection rendered obsolete in one throw.
I know Sebastian seems to think that this will unify the game into a glorious, intuitive whole and incorporate all of the rules changes coming in one fell swoop. Which only goes to show that even lawyers can underestimate the corporate imperative - we'll be seeing loads of additional 4e rules supplements before you can say "Knife."
Funnily enough, WotC rather lost me with all of the new adventures they are beginning to pump out. Not only are they generally inferior to what was in Dungeon, they are also in that hideous "Delve" format. If ever there was a licence to waste space in a book (and rack up the pennies by issuing a 200 page hardback where a 32 page softback would do) it was that. For example, a 200+ page book on Undermountain should have been fantastic. Instead, it barely covered a couple of corners. Ripped off?
I used to feel vaguely positive about WotC, but now I feel that Paizo (and maybe a few others I don't know about) are the only ones who want to make money by giving gamers what they want, not imposing on the public what they think they should have. 4E? Meh, 3.5 works fine for me right now. I don't need to line the pockets of WotC just to prove a point. It will stand and fall on its merits.
Just what I wanted to see after several days in the field: WotC making the official word that 4E is coming. As if ticks and chiggers weren't bad enough, the parasites strike. Makes me glad I opted out of GenCon this year, 'cause this would ruin it for me forever. Now I'm really irritated, and it's not even 7 am. Thanks for the head's up y'all. Now I think I'll see what Paizo's got in store for the rest of the year, so I have something to look forward to.
I also admitted to being a brain in a jar in another thread. I'm surprised no one ever figured out my true identity. Mha ha ha.
They saw your post and saw it as the last straw. You made them start the countdown!
You have doomed us all to fourth edition!
*Runs away*
Doomed us all!
Doomed us all!
Doomed us all!
It's HIM! GLEEMAX IS HERE! BURN HIM!!!!!!!
If Wizards are bringing out 4e then they deserve shooting! All of them up against the wall!
Warmage 101
Just out of interest, what is the paizo staff's view on this monstrosity? Have we heard anything from James Jacobs or Erik Mona yet?
Players of the world unite! Tpgether we must stand against he darkness!!
We should start a petition...
Warmage 101
If Wizards are bringing out 4e then they deserve shooting! All of them up against the wall!Warmage 101
eh? Well, cool down again, it was foreseeable and inevitable.
Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.
Stefan
Just out of interest, what is the paizo staff's view on this monstrosity? Have we heard anything from James Jacobs or Erik Mona yet?Warmage 101
There is another post where James has mentioned they are pretty well in the dark as well, and are in a "wait and see" holding pattern. Likely (especially with what Monte has been prophesying) they had their ears closer to the ground than we, but still aren't privy to every business decision that trumpets forth from the ivory tower.
Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them
Roughly, about 15% of the time, I can. Recent advances look to increase that though, which is cool.
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Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to themRoughly, about 15% of the time, I can. Recent advances look to increase that though, which is cool.
Same here, except that I approach the 25% mark. Not too funny, but true.
BTW, reading the first half of W1 has brought back some inner peace. Gamemastery modules can even soothe the angry beast.
I'm more into the "couldn't care less" attitude.
I knew the day that they would move to a new edition was coming soon. Just the way they have presented it leaves me unsettled.
That is to say they have not shown me anything yet. This is when I want to know how easily I'll be able to convert my books. I want to know if OGL will still exist in this new edition. I would like to know where my current and future article proposals for Dragon stand now.
I know they have only put the counter less than twelve hours ago, but they seem to have been doing this for months. They barely given any information on what they are doing and they say that although we do not see what is going on that it is going to be great.
I am tired of it. I want answers. I need answers! I am tired of this whole thing being drug out. I will give them this sad day to enjoy their countdown. Then I will not accept you answering my questions with "We are not sure yet", "That is not ready to be revealed, but I'm sure you will enjoy what we have done", "We will be answering that over the next year." These are answers I want to know now because I have to decide if I will give you my money or not.
I don't believe they owe me anything for the products I purchased. I have enjoyed what I have gotten for them. But I want information on stuff I am going to buy, especially stuff that will cost $200+, and just running around saying, "You are going love it when you see it," for year preceding the release just shows me that they don't want my money anymore.
Now I am ticked off that I maybe jumping through the Kübler-Ross model over a game.
I kind of wish 4th edition would be released with Duke Nukem Forever.
That is to say they have not shown me anything yet. This is when I want to know how easily I'll be able to convert my books. I want to know if OGL will still exist in this new edition. I would like to know where my current and future article proposals for Dragon stand now.
They posted submission guidelines.
Can't see them now though.