Wizards message boards work fine for me.Im finding my self very happy about this news.I didnt think it would really effect me at all but...I was upset when 2nd ed was to be no more and alot of people were championing 3rd ed.Im finding a certain sick glee in people being upset about 4e.Sorry...i just cant help it!
mwahahahha.... everything is going according to plan!
wait... I just revealed my presence... *explosive runes*
now that that's settled *goes back to lurking*
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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From ENWorld:
The 4th Edition announcement event has just finished. It took place in a massive ballroom filled with hundreds of people. A large screen flashed images and videos; full-size models of a beholder and a troll decorated the floor before the stage. The event was presented by Bill Slavicsek and Chris Perkins.
1) History of the editions video - 1e, 2e, 3e and then 4e. A comical video looking at the improvements over the years, finishing wih 4E presented as a 21st Century hi-tech combination of digital media and physical product. Also, jokes were made of clunky rules, such as the grappling rules - to which we are assured, we can say goodbye!
2) Covers revealed for the core rules - the covers of the PHB, MM and DMG were revealed. The MM shows Orcus (in my earlier meeting, I was told that the MM would range from CR 1-30 critters). THe DMG had a dragon fighting an adventuring party on it.
3) Character advancement is meaningful at each level - touched on earlier, each level will provide new abilities and challenges.
4) High level play as fun and meaningful as low level - and as easy to run. The "sweet point" concept was reiterated, illustrated as levels 7-14. This is the game experience that the whole game should be providing.
5) Resource Management overhauled - the game will keep going even when the caster
is out of spells, or when the cleric has run out of healing.
6) Monster roles are being redefined - DM will have easier time finding right monster for the right job. Statblocks are simplified.
7) Four parts to 4E - physical product (core rules, adventures, supplements, tiles, miniatures); Organized Play (Living Campaigns, convention play, special events, connecting players and DMs in new ways); Community (Gleemax.com, a suite of social ntworking tools, ways for players to communicate with each other and with WotC, organise characters); Digital Offerings (DND Insider: collection of online tools for DMs, character creation, editorial game content, online expanded content for books, behind the scenes content for books, designer commentaries -much of this was analogous to the second disc in a DVD box set: every physical product will have a code which can be entered into D&D Insider which will
unlock the product's digital version for you online, along with extra content).
8) Dragon/Dungeon - Online content will be added every few days (Dragon and Dungeon content), and colated into monthly issues.
9) Digital tabletop - a wireframe of a dragon was shown, an online dice roller (very pretty) , the ability to use purchased digital tiles or to draw on the tabletop. It's not a game, just a toolbox - you still provide the DM, the players and the adventure.
10) DNDInsider.com was apparently set to go live right after the announcement. It will be live in preview form. It's not available as I type this, but it's worth checking periodically.
11) Playtesters! If you want to be a 4th Edition playtester, selections are going to be made from RPGA members and people who sign up to DNDInsider.com.
We asked a couple of questions right at the end. The iconics will remain as a mix of old and new iconics. Also, the "christmas tree" effect, whereby characters are loaded down with magic items, buff spells and other magical effects was one of the designers' goals to remove.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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More:
The very first thing they said to me was that the core rulebooks will span levels 1-30. Not only that, but those levels are supposed to extend the "sweet spot" of D&D, which WotC guesstimated at currently being levels 4-14ish. They have also tried to ensure that every class gets something new and exciting at every level. They did not list the core classes (although indicated that psionics will be supplementary, and not core), and they pointed to the front cover for the 4e PHB where is referred to (if I recall correctly), where it says "Arcane, divine and martial characters". I asked about the Rogue, and was told that the Rogue is a "martial character".
They spoke also of character "roles", and about how different classes would have different roles more explicitly predefined than at present. Continuing the concept of every class receiving cool new stuff at each level I asked if this meant that they were spreading the magic around more than at present; their response was "yes, to an extent", but that, for example, the Fighter would have maneuvers and so forth.
The release schedule is as follows: in April 2008, a quick-start adventure called "Adventure H1: Keep on the Shadowfell" will be released. This will include pregenerated characters. May 2008 sees the 4th Edition Player's Handbook and Character Record Sheet, June 2008 sees the Monster Manual, and July 2008 brings us the Dungeon Master's Guide and DM's Screen.
On magic, they touched briefly on the PHB containing various "power sources", expanding the concept of arcane and divine sources.
The look of 4th Edition, they said, would be much less"textbook" and much more "magazine"; they felt this would be friendlier, clearer and more accessible. Expect to see a higher reliance on images and diagrams.
You've already heard about dndinsider.com, which is due to go live soon. This i their digital content. I saw examples of the Dragon and Dungeon pages (it looked a lot like the magazines). The intention is to provide subscriber services alongside the current free content, although some free content will move over.
The whole digitial thing is heavily linked in to the physical product line. They empasized that they were marrying to two together. D&D books will have a code in them which, when entered into the online service, will provide digital access to that content. The digital game table was a large part of the conversation, with screenshots on how you generat a character online using the physical books you own, customize its appearance, and then generate a "virtual miniature" for use in the online game experience. The online game is tool, not a game in itself - a mapping system with battlemaps, generators and so forth, all run by a DM. I saw a few screenshots, showing overhead and isometric views, and virtual miniatures including a PC and a green dragon.
Regarding the OGL and the d20 System - both will continue to be actively supported. There WILL be a 4th Edition SRD; some publishers will get access to it early, just like with the 3 rollout.
The public announcement is tonight at 6.30pm (just over an hour from now), with videos, screens and so forth.
I always knew that roleplayers were a reactionary lot, but some of the posts on 4e have been ridiculous. I'd say by this time next year (after Paizo has switched to 4e if it's OGL) most people will be talking about how great the new books and system is. Some people don't seem to understand that D&D is not some niche roleplaying hobby anymore, its an industry, and to survive over the next coming decade needs to remain so. It's really no different in many respects to the change from the Xbox to the Xbox360 (and nobody complained about that). To grab new gamers and keep the game moving forward these sort of transformations are inevitable. Indeed, if the hobby survives long enough 4e will evolve into 4.5 then be replaced by 5e and 6e and so on. Change is inevitable and I for one am happy to see it occur.
Of course, there are some people who like playing Hackmaster or C&C or 2e still. Just because WotC changes to 4e doesn't mean the end of the world. If you don't want to play with the new system stick with 3.5, but I warn you, the industry (including all the other companies) will move with the times, and considering how closely many Paizo staff work with the WotC staff expect Paizo to go 4e (if they are allowed)!
I just hope for all the sake of those people who already hate WotC (who haven't released anything worthwhile in 10 years!!!!) and 4e that it won't be OGL. That will force Paizo and the other companies to stick with 3.5.
Cool stuff Sebastion! Thanks for the report.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I always knew that roleplayers were a reactionary lot, but some of the posts on 4e have been ridiculous. I'd say by this time next year (after Paizo has switched to 4e if it's OGL) most people will be talking about how great the new books and system is. Some people don't seem to understand that D&D is not some niche roleplaying hobby anymore, its an industry, and to survive over the next coming decade needs to remain so. It's really no different in many respects to the change from the Xbox to the Xbox360 (and nobody complained about that). To grab new gamers and keep the game moving forward these sort of transformations are inevitable. Indeed, if the hobby survives long enough 4e will evolve into 4.5 then be replaced by 5e and 6e and so on. Change is inevitable and I for one am happy to see it occur.
Phil, let me get you an apron. It looks like you're going to be in the kitchen with me baking some I-Told-You-So-Pie.
Sebastian -
You're an irritating old codger most of the time and I hate to admit that you were right.
But I will. I also want to thank you for passing on this information.... my job keeps me from GenCon every year, so I am here dealing with incoming students instead of there finding out what's going on.
*sigh* let us hope that 4e is not a complete disaster.
Oh... and all the bums at WotC who outright LIED about the time-table after direct questions... you need to know that as a customer, you've pissed me off as much as you did when you pulled the published Dungeon and Dragon from us. Given that I was sick from grief for almost a month that took work.
I'm a secretary. I make purchases based on these lies. I don't have that much "free" income to do that with. GAH!
- Ashavan
PS - That codger comment is meant mostly in jest Sebastian, but that thank you and admission you were right were quite serious.
I've got to laugh that WotC kicks off its Digital Initiative with an overloaded server... this is what they expect people to pay every month for?
I think it will be a pretty tart pie for some too. Let me get the lemons ready.
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I always knew that roleplayers were a reactionary lot, but some of the posts on 4e have been ridiculous. I'd say by this time next year (after Paizo has switched to 4e if it's OGL) most people will be talking about how great the new books and system is. Some people don't seem to understand that D&D is not some niche roleplaying hobby anymore, its an industry, and to survive over the next coming decade needs to remain so. It's really no different in many respects to the change from the Xbox to the Xbox360 (and nobody complained about that). To grab new gamers and keep the game moving forward these sort of transformations are inevitable. Indeed, if the hobby survives long enough 4e will evolve into 4.5 then be replaced by 5e and 6e and so on. Change is inevitable and I for one am happy to see it occur.
Of course, there are some people who like playing Hackmaster or C&C or 2e still. Just because WotC changes to 4e doesn't mean the end of the world. If you don't want to play with the new system stick with 3.5, but I warn you, the industry (including all the other companies) will move with the times, and considering how closely many Paizo staff work with the WotC staff expect Paizo to go 4e (if they are allowed)!
I just hope for all the sake of those people who already hate WotC (who haven't released anything worthwhile in 10 years!!!!) and 4e that it won't be OGL. That will force Paizo and the other companies to stick with 3.5.
Yeah, it's a bit reactionary, isn't it? I'm sure more of a few of the people that are crying that they'll NEVER EVER switch to 4th ed alsosaid they'd NEVER EVER switch to 3, or 3.5. Sure, a few of them probably didn't, but c'mon, most of us did!
I also like "I'll NEVER EVER switch to 4th edition.... well, I might buy the PHB so I can game with others ..... maybe the DMG ,...... but I'll NEVER EVER switch!"
Of course, me? I'll NEVER EVER switch!!!! Now, where's the link to that Wizards site...? ;-)
If only they could have anticipated that we would all click at exactly the same time.
Nice one wizards, way to put your best foot forward. This stunning display of competence will surely silence the nay-sayers.
Sigh.
Well you won me over with your speech about this being a battle that must be fought for the sake of the very hobby - but uh, our commander in chief seems less then inspiring. I mean if I have to fight for everything I believe in it would inspire more confidence if high command did not seem like a bunch of clowns.
Thanks for the update Sebastian :) That ENWorld post was very informative.
Regarding the OGL and the d20 System - both will continue to be actively supported. There WILL be a 4th Edition SRD; some publishers will get access to it early, just like with the 3 rollout.
That comment is particularly exciting. Long live the SRD!
Well you won me over with your speech about this being a battle that must be fought for the sake of the very hobby - but uh, our commander in chief seems less then inspiring. I mean if I have to fight for everything I believe in it would inspire more confidence if high command did not seem like a bunch of clowns.If only they could have anticipated that we would all click at exactly the same time.
Nice one wizards, way to put your best foot forward. This stunning display of competence will surely silence the nay-sayers.
Sigh.
"bunch of clowns" How appropriate considering IT"S A GAME!!
I'm not condoning corporate lies but I thought your choice of phrase was rather ironic ;)
I've got to laugh that WotC kicks off its Digital Initiative with an overloaded server...
ROTFLMAO!!
Ah god, (wiping the tears from my eyes from laughing) thank you for pointing out the irony. I'd missed that!
drum roll please..... "And now..... the wonderous technological marvel you've all been waiting for!!!!!!!!...... uh.... tech support?"
Design & Development: Class
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816b“I’m playing a 3rd-level human fighter named Graelar.”
“Cool. Is he weapon and shield or two-hander?”
“He’s sword and board, man.”
“Longsword?”
“Yeah. I thought about going high Con and using a hammer, but I wanted to start with the chance to make a couple of attacks, so I’m using rain of blows as my good weapon attack, and I went with high Wis so that I can switch to the better oppy powers later.”
“My elf fighter uses a spear. I like the speed and the option to go past AC. But you’ve got the fighter covered. I’ll play a halfling rogue.”
Looks like the "undisclosed race" that's been given the arse in favour of Tieflings is not Elf, Human or Halfling then...
Tieflings, meh. I'm really starting to get vaguely sick of edgy dark heroes. My next PC is going to be goody two-shoes Aasimar Paladin, alone amongst a horde of morally grey guys with anime hair and demonic grandpas.
i have to admit that what I'm seeing so far does seem interesting: from the new website (yay!I'm finally in-I guess we didn't destroy the internet with our rabid love/hate bated breath click-click-clicking on that one button) to the reports from GenCon coming in from many different websites(actually I've only seen enworld-thanks Sebastian- Paizo and Wizards-and that gleemax brain is even more annoying in a physical puppet version) to the general hubbub ; who wouldn't enjoy it just for the sheer ridiculosity(teehee) of it . After all: IT IS A Game!(bunch'a'clowns we be)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dragon
If wotc wanted Dragon back why couldnt they just take it back and keep it a print mag.Just seeing this page irks me.Looks like the demonomicon is staying...too bad ill never get to read them.
I was able to get in just long enough to create an account, and then I got a "Service Unavailable" message.
- Ashavan
Interesting reading here, all 11+ pages of it (half of which is Sebastian - sorry to poke fun of you, but... Thanks for the info from ENworld though - as I can't get in there either!)
Myself, I with join the few others here will be sticking with 3.5 for a while. I have enough invested in it to last the rest of my life (literally).
Sure, 4th Edition may be great, but that doesn't mean I have to buy it. I'm not going to say I never will, but I look forward to not having to buy any new books for a while. Keeping up with 3.5 releases what tough enough (I'm still behind due to a loss in employment).
just my 2 bits!
Anybody else seen this tidbit yet (at the Dungeon section of the new site):
Welcome to the future home of Dungeon Magazine! Starting in October, this is your destination for the best in D&D adventures. Here’s a taste of what’s coming in issue #151:
* Iggwilv’s Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
By Edward Albert, Ari Marmell, and C.A. SuleimanOne of the most ambitious projects to ever hit Dungeon, the classic 1st Edition module is freshly updated to D&D 3.5. Plus, the adventure features a new prelude and a follow-up adventure that takes the PCs to Tsojcanth’s lair.
* Hell’s Heart
By Nicolas LogueThe three-part Eberron adventure series that began with “Chimes at Midnight” in issue #133 and continued with “Quoth the Raven” in issue #150 concludes in this chilling visit to Sharn’s sanitarium. A final showdown is brewing in the dark, depraved depths of the asylum, and if the PCs aren’t up to the task, the chaos inside the walls of Hell’s Heart could erupt to engulf the city.
I was able to get in just long enough to create an account, and then I got a "Service Unavailable" message.
- Ashavan
Looks like I'll have to wait till morning to even try to get a look at it.
Seems upper management is essentially the same every where. People in charge listen to the management team that is only hired because they have a college education. Said team (with no actual idea how the product is actually made) tells them "Sure we can do that. No problem." Token members that actually know what they are doing are
A. Not listened to if they have objections.
or
B. Informed later of any decisions the management team THINKS they nead to know.
Of course then you get a situation similar to the current one. Four hours and counting and still no stable web service.
Sorry had to rant. This is WAY to similar to the way my employer works for comfort right now.
Well, people seem to be intermitently getting further than I did... as I never reached that point in the Dungeon forum to see what was coming.
Maybe it will be functioning when I get to work in the morning... I typically arrive 15 min to a half hour early and read the news online. This is close enough to news to count.
- Ashavan
Don't burn those 3.5 books! I'll take them off your hands instead, since you don't want them anymore. I call it recycling!
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I bet by 'powers' they mean manuevers...
Maybe their going Iron Heroes route... or even using schticks like Feng Shui.
Go review the Star Wars Saga rules. I'm sure they mean "talents". The statements about "new powers at every level" fits in with the Saga rules, which give alternating feat/talent at each level. feat/talent/feat/talent/feat/talent
So when they speak about the longsword having more "powers" that probably means it has more talent trees available.
Similarly, they likely could have axe or spear talent trees that grant specific whizzy things you can do with those weapons.
I'll also be interested to see if they've combined the AC & reflex saving throws into one like they did with SWSaga. That actually has worked out well in our playing so far.
But fire's cool!Don't burn those 3.5 books! I'll take them off your hands instead, since you don't want them anymore. I call it recycling!
Yeah, I forgot about that. Silly me!
Fire good...
On the side - I wish WotC would fix their site! I want to see the official stuff, darn it!
Guess I'll play some Diablo II for a bit (see, old stuff is cool!)
Go review the Star Wars Saga rules. I'm sure they mean "talents". The statements about "new powers at every level" fits in with the Saga rules, which give alternating feat/talent at each level. feat/talent/feat/talent/feat/talent
One of my players was complaining the other day that most of the classes have too many dead levels. She is annoyed that sometimes her rogue gets nothing but skills and HP, and said she thinks there should be a feat or something every level so you feel like you've accomplished something. I think she has a point. This would fix that up well.
Yeah, it's a bit reactionary, isn't it? I'm sure more of a few of the people that are crying that they'll NEVER EVER switch to 4th ed alsosaid they'd NEVER EVER switch to 3, or 3.5. Sure, a few of them probably didn't, but c'mon, most of us did!
I also like "I'll NEVER EVER switch to 4th edition.... well, I might buy the PHB so I can game with others ..... maybe the DMG ,...... but I'll NEVER EVER switch!"
Of course, me? I'll NEVER EVER switch!!!! Now, where's the link to that Wizards site...? ;-)
I just wanted to take the time to put it on record that I, and the rest of my group, won't switch. (And I actually liked 3rd Edition, and even 3.5 won me over.)
I've seen enough of 4th edition already to know that.
How can I be so sure already?
Well, there was this 3.5 supplement that every one of us (my group) thought was shoddy, ill conceived, and down right silly. (Imagine our outrage when it won supplement of the year!) That was the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. The fact that that concept is the new Fighter model is an Earth Breaker to the face.
Resource Management Overhaul: Oh... You mean spellcasters will regain casting power over time instead of once a day? Maybe even hit points too? That sounds very much like White Wolf's Exalted system to me. And hey! Exalted is class-less, and even level-less. So D&D will come closer to the best system I have seen in a very long time... Too bad that "other" system has already been out for a while.
Now, if you are a 4th Edition hopeful, let me sincerely wish you good luck. I hope it turns out to be everything you hope for.
For me, and "mine," WoTC has ended our journey down their path. Although, as a concept, I really like some of their online proposals - aside from the subscription requirement.
I've got to laugh that WotC kicks off its Digital Initiative with an overloaded server...ROTFLMAO!!
Ah god, (wiping the tears from my eyes from laughing) thank you for pointing out the irony. I'd missed that!
drum roll please..... "And now..... the wonderous technological marvel you've all been waiting for!!!!!!!!...... uh.... tech support?"
Welcome to the future...the rules will be seriously slick but you won't be able to play because your connection keeps timing out.
I can see it know...
"come on guys...if you compare it to other hobbies like Golf a T1 line is just not that expensive".
All this 4th Edition stuff is reminding me of why I despise Microsoft...
That marketer/capitalist need to force your product on people at regular intervals. Isn't it enough that we keep buying their stupid expansion books. But no, now we will have to buy a whole new edition of core books and start all over again...smells like the "Games for Windows" initiative that is driving gamers to buy bigger and better computer hardware.
I have a screaming fast PC and after running games on that box and comparing it side by side with my previous box, I'm disappointed. I hope to God that 4th Edition doesn't leave me with the same "well that was a waste of money" feeling.
I guess I just don't see what the need is for a 4th Edition.
My take on all of this is that WOTC needs a 4th Edition regardless of what the rest of us need. I've seen good points raised about this and it makes sense. They need to make a profit and unlike some, I won't demonize them for that. But I do feel that we, the humble gamers, do not need 4th Edition any time soon. But we're getting it nonetheless, so I guess we will all have to take some time to digest all of this and decide what it means for the future.
But my main point is that I don't think we do need a 4th edition yet. I think 3.5 could have taken us very far for many years to come. But corporations are obligated to maximize wealth for their shareholders, so the 4th edition train is coming. Let's just hope they manage to do something useful with it. But no matter what, I'm with Pathfinder, whether it is 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 4.75, 5.0...
I've got Paizo's back. And I feel like they've got ours as well.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well you won me over with your speech about this being a battle that must be fought for the sake of the very hobby - but uh, our commander in chief seems less then inspiring. I mean if I have to fight for everything I believe in it would inspire more confidence if high command did not seem like a bunch of clowns.
You fight the war with the commander in chief that you've got, not the commander in chief that you want.
Or something to that effect...
hmmmm...pie...
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa...
Lois...this isn't my Batman glass!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3J8t2-RVs
This whole "character roles" idea, while perfectly valid from a munchkin perspective, is complete and utter bunk in a role-playing game. Why would I want to play when WotC has apparently already predetermined what my character OUGHT to do based on their class? It's true that all characters serve some role in the party, but the idea of them straight up defining it in black and white like this makes me a little uneasy.
Mayhaps they give you a the roles within a party and let you fill that role the way you want to.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07