Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Not too put too fine a point on it, but seriously, is there a significant cost saving in the bad maps in issue 128.
Let's start with Shut In. These sterile computer generated maps look terrible. They looked terrible when used in the Eberron trilogy, and I had hoped they were just meant to be stylistic for that campaign world. Apparently they are not. These maps are ugly, difficult to read, and look completely out of tone for a fantasy rpg. Half the time I can't tell what's a wall and what's background.
The Champions Belt maps are decent and usable, or at least would be, if they weren't tiny. Is there a reason that some of the extraneous side passages could not have been shortened and the whole map blown up? This is particularly true of the map on page 53. I guess I can see that the attempt was to show the relationship of the three levels in three dimensions by showing the relative positions of the stairwells, but couldn't something have been done to make these a little bigger?
I don't have any complaints about the Fireplace Level maps. They're functional if not sexy. But when I flip to the back of the magazine and take a look at Chris West's map of the Sewer Stronghold of a thieves guild, I can't help but wonder, couldn't all the maps look like this. His maps tell stories in and of themselves, they're alive with detail. One of the best things about the Shackled City adventure path was his cartography.
Sebastian
Creative Director
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Maps in RPG products can be difficult beasts to pull off; they have to be functional and serve the game, but at the same point they have to pull double-duty and serve as artwork, especially in a genre as text-heavy as D&D. If we zoom in too close to a map, it starts to look cluttered. There has to be some "dead space" around the edges for a compass rose, a key, a scale, titles, and other notes. That said, I agree that we probably could have zoomed in a little closer to the action on the map that appears on page 53.
I'm sorry you didn't like the artistic choices our cartographers went with in issue #128; we try to mix things up and use different cartographers and different styles to keep things from starting to look to routine or repetitive in the magazine. That said, we do listen to our readers—your observations and criticisms can only help make the magazine better. We're doing the best we can (given our budgets and time constraints) to get the best looking adventures we can out to the gaming public.
I'm not going to give reasons why the maps in this (or any other) issue of Dungeon may or may not suck. If you don't like them, I'm sorry. The best thing I can say is wait until next issue; maybe you'll like the maps in that one better.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Maps in RPG products can be difficult beasts to pull off; they have to be functional and serve the game, but at the same point they have to pull double-duty and serve as artwork, especially in a genre as text-heavy as D&D. If we zoom in too close to a map, it starts to look cluttered. There has to be some "dead space" around the edges for a compass rose, a key, a scale, titles, and other notes. That said, I agree that we probably could have zoomed in a little closer to the action on the map that appears on page 53.
I'm sorry you didn't like the artistic choices our cartographers went with in issue #128; we try to mix things up and use different cartographers and different styles to keep things from starting to look to routine or repetitive in the magazine. That said, we do listen to our readers—your observations and criticisms can only help make the magazine better. We're doing the best we can (given our budgets and time constraints) to get the best looking adventures we can out to the gaming public.
I'm not going to give reasons why the maps in this (or any other) issue of Dungeon may or may not suck. If you don't like them, I'm sorry. The best thing I can say is wait until next issue; maybe you'll like the maps in that one better.
James, that's what I love about these boards, you guys get right back to us. I am voicing my opinion a bit more aggressively than normal because I'm hoping others agree and because I think you will listen if they do. I really can't stand the cartographer that did Shut In, and I hope you guys can get him to change his style. However, if I'm the only disatisifed person, I wouldn't expect you to change and wouldn't hold it against you for not doing so.
Sebastian
PS - And don't forget, I'm giving a big thumbs up to Chris West. Give that man whatever he wants to keep producing his maps. I love his work.
James, that's what I love about these boards, you guys get right back to us.
You know, as a contributor, here's one of the things that I hate about Boards. Someone may have some valid criticism, but immediately devalidates it by being a pompous jackass. "This sucks. That sucks." Geez people, is civility utterly dead in our industry? Here's why things suck, as you so graciously put it. Very few of us actually make a living off of the little odds and ends we do for the magazine. That means that we cram these projects in wherever we can fit them. Often things are rushed, miscommunicated, or simply don't out the way we plan. Honestly, the map for Shut In ended up about 50% darker than I predicted with color shift. It was hard to read. Not my greatest momment. But you know what, that's no reason to be a public jerk to me about it. Everyone whose work appears in Dungeon worked really hard to get in there, and none of us deserve your lip. I abhor the anonymous empowerment message boards give fans. I'd love there to be a peer review forum for cartography, and to talk on a professional level about what the fans want, and what does and doesn't work. But boy am I sick of "your maps suck," and "Downer sucks." Have some class, sonny. I want my work to contribute to a rich gaming experience, and am open to feedback. But beligerence only raises my hackles, and tends to blind me to the otherwise valid point you're trying to make (ie map for Shut In was tough to read, and stylistically, too digital in feel.)
I want my work to contribute to a rich gaming experience, and am open to feedback.
That's the point here, people - if want something to be better, give suggestions on how you think it could be better. Don't just say "it sucks" and be done with it. There's nothing useful in being negative.
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That's the point here, people - if want something to be better, give suggestions on how you think it could be better. Don't just say "it sucks" and be done with it. There's nothing useful in being negative.
The original poster did not just drop a "suck" and leave it at that, he indicated what he did not like about each set of maps, what maps he liked, etc. Perhaps the title of the post could have been a little less harsh, but the post itself was fine.
As for Kyle's reply, his reaction went overboard. If you are going to produce work for publication, no matter how incredible of a job you do, there will always be those who hate it, and will say so. If you don't not have a thick enough skin to take the criticism, then don't publish. Learn what you can from the feedback. Try to handle criticism more like a professional next time.
Back to the topic at hand. The maps for Shut-In could have been better. The problems I had with them wer that they were too dark. The background design for the maps on the right was cluttered and distracting. I really disliked the design used for the stairs. It looks odd and where you have two sets of stairs near each other it gets confusing.
What I did like about the maps was the inclusion of furnishings, rugs, the little detail items. The background of the main floor was nice.
Kyle may have reacted strongly, but it is natural for him to be frustrated.
For a moment, please imagine what it's like to toil away for extra hours for the below market rates of a niche industry. Then imagine that a lot of what you get in return is b+*~%ing.
Even if artists and authors work primarily for the love of the game (which most do), eventually they throw up their hands and move on to videogames or something else.
Moral of the story... Be excellent to each other. If you are going to offer criticism, you will probably get further if you don't open with "You suck!".
As for Kyle's reply, his reaction went overboard.
Yeah. Sorry everyone. But there you go, right? Posters kinda get to say whatever the hell they want. It can be tough to just grit your teeth and take it, especially first thing on a Monday morning. But that's what you get when you use inflamatory language. There's nothing professional about sitting back and letting someone tell you that you suck. Frankly, that's a real benefit of being a freelancer. You have the freedom to tell your detractors to get lost. It's both a portion of a creator's livelihood, and an artistic expression. Damn straight I take criticism a little too personally sometimes. Again, I think it is a generational problem with straight-up courtesy. When the tone of a thread is blatantly negative, and singles out individuals, it is already "unprofessional" Its hard to not get drawn into it on a personal level. Look at poor Wil Wheaton. That kid endured playing Wesly-friggin-Crusher and he cracked under the pressure of these boards.
More to the point, I tend to be experimental in my approach to cartography. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Stairs are an interesting challenge. Do people think that old "wide-to-narrow indicating descent" symbol works? I don't dig it. Seems that Wizards is moving toward simple parallel lines with an arrow indicating ascent. What do y'all prefer?
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I should probably chime in here, since I've been mentioned. :)
First off...thanks for the kind words about my work, Sebastian! As an artist, it's always nice to get a favorable nod from the people who enjoy your work.
Conversely, it's always frustrating to be met with sharp criticism, so I totally see where Kyle is coming from. Just as praise can inflate one's energy to keep going and look for ways to improve, a word of scorn can suck the wind right out of your sails and leave you frustrated and tired. This is why criticism needs to be handled even more carefully on the Internet, where people tend to write their opinions in ways they might not say them in person, and where even mild comments can easily be read as wrenching insults.
I'd also like to note that comparing a Map of Mystery to a more standard adventure map might not be entirely fair, for each serves a different purpose in the magazine. An adventure map is designed with a specific story in mind, and needs to conform to the text that accompanies it. It is a visual reference piece intended to clarify gameplay in a particular magazine feature, whereas a Map of Mystery is a feature unto itself...free of the restraints of any accompanying text and designed as a self-contained piece of art that a DM can use in a number of ways. Maps of Mystery also generally provide the artist with a lot more space to play around with than adventure maps, and usually include plenty of artistic freedom in terms of layout, mood, and environment.
Looking at Kyle's maps in #128, I'd have to say that they show a good bit more detail than my Map of Mystery (in terms of furnishings and the amount of information communicated to the DM), and manage to do it in a much smaller space. I'd love to see them bigger, and Kyle has already addressed the fact that they printed darker than intended.
In all, I'd say that this is a pretty fine issue with a variety of approaches to urban adventuring, and the maps go hand-in-hand with that.
Kyle may have reacted strongly, but it is natural for him to be frustrated.
For a moment, please imagine what it's like to toil away for extra hours for the below market rates of a niche industry. Then imagine that a lot of what you get in return is b%%!!ing.
Even if artists and authors work primarily for the love of the game (which most do), eventually they throw up their hands and move on to videogames or something else.
Moral of the story... Be excellent to each other. If you are going to offer criticism, you will probably get further if you don't open with "You suck!".
Thanks Rob. Much more kindly put than my post.
Forgive me if this question has been asked before, but what software do the artists use for the maps? My son picked up issue 98 recently at our local gaming store (The Days of Knights in Newark, De - shameless plug:) and the map of the inn for Flood Season was just fantistic! Keep up the excellent work!
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I personally found all the maps in this issue particularly good. Over the course of the last few years I've seen a few stinkers that really should have been redone before they were put into the final product, but this issue everything seemed pretty good.
"Shut In"- Okay, I can see how initially this map is a little confusing. I personally had trouble with the stairs. However, all the furniture being in its proper place is a huge plus and not something that we usally get to see in adventure maps. I was not left with a bad taste in my mouth after looking at the map the first time and thats honestly all I ask.
"Challenge of Champions"- The maps in this adventure are how I picture ideal Dungeon maps being. "Hall of Harsh Reflections" had small maps, but these are just the right size. Any adventure that devotes a whole page (pg 51) to a map is going to get points in my book. This adventure was absolutely huge and had the distinct possibility that the PCs would NOT be gladiators as planned but would have to enter the underground through other, less obvious, means. Its very difficult to make a map which covers all these possible entrances, but the maps given to us do so very well.
I also did not see any huge problems with "The Fireplace Level".
Its kind of silly to compare a "Map of Mystery" to an adventure map. A MoM is suppose to be a stand-alone map that supports itself and inspires a DM to make a story that fits the map. Meanwhile adventure map is made along-side an already existing adventure and is only suppose to illustrate what we are reading in the module. This issue both did their job excellently.
Forgive me if this question has been asked before, but what software do the artists use for the maps? My son picked up issue 98 recently at our local gaming store (The Days of Knights in Newark, De - shameless plug:) and the map of the inn for Flood Season was just fantistic! Keep up the excellent work!
I use Adobe Illustrator to make sure the skeleton of the map snaps to the grid and all. Then, depending on the style, either that Illustrator file is used as a template for hand-drawn elements, or is painted up in Photoshop.
There are a smattering of my map samples at http://www.superunicorn.com/kyle/home_design.html
I just added a thread about giving and taking criticism. Perhaps it would be a good idea for Paizo to write up critiquing and etiquette guidelines specifically for this site.
Wha? Back in 1978 we only had graph paper and squiggly symbols... and gosh-durned it, we liked it!
I'll take digital color maps any day of the week! All these whippersnappers don't know how good they have it.
Hey Kyle I agree with you 100 percent there is a way to present criticizm thats helpful and there is a way to just be plain rude.
For whatever reason people seem to think being rude is a valid way of getting attention. It isn't and shouldn't be socially acceptable.I always figure that if I wouldn't say it that way to someones face you shouldn't say it to them online.
So in the vein of Constructive Critisizm.
I don't have 128 yet to comment on but looking back in the last few issues one such map that stands out is the Temple of the scorpion god in 124.
Two thing about this maps I've noticed is that for the digital style ones they seem to my eye to have too fine a detail line on the edges of walls and objects and look somewhat flat.
It has really nice texturing and coloring but I really think that having a bolder solid outline around the edges of objects and a bit of a drop shadow would help to make it look abit more solid and have more depth, As well it would Make it easier to view if shrunk down to fit in on a page.
Its one of the features of Chris West Maps and the maps from AOW that make them easy to view and really appealing even tho they use very different artistic styles.
I've did a quick edit to illustrate what i mean.
Scorp Map
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I'm glad you liked the Lucky Monkey map from Flood Season, Eleazar! That one took a good bit of work. For me, 3d = 3 times the work because I don't generally use 3d software in my mapmaking.
After sketching up maps by hand and scanning them into my Mac, I use Adobe Photoshop almost exclusively. While I may generate some textures in other sources, they, too, invariably go through much enhancement in Photoshop while being incorporated into the finished illustration.
Forgive me if this question has been asked before, but what software do the artists use for the maps?
I'm liking Dundjinni - you can read my review on it in the Paizo store.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well this thread sure misfired...
I meant to get some attention with the thread title. You can't go and post "X sucks" w/o expecting some feedback from those who think X, in fact, rocks. However, I was hoping to get attention and commentary from the readers (about digital-looking maps as exemplified by Shut In) and the editors (about the size of the maps) and not from the artists.
That being said, I can see how Kyle got offended. I put suck in the title, called his map terrible, and said James should encourage him to find a new style.
Kyle Hunter: I apologize. I didn't mean to call you out as an artist and criticize you as an individual human being. I meant to criticize the style of map that you created in Shut In and Temple of the Scorpion God. A similar style map also appeared in the other Ebberon adventures in the triology, the epic level adventure from a few issues ago, and a desert adventure from the recent past. I don't think you did all of them and I apologize for singling you out. I clicked on your link and looked through your other work. Most of it is good; some of it is terrific. In fact, I think the only work I actively dislike is the stuff in the very digital very sharp style that I pointed out. I apologize for not expressing my dislike in a more diplomatic way. I thought I was being sharp and acerbic, but I was really being rude and disrespectful. I am sorry.
For anyone else who is still reading this thread - what do you think of the extremely digital looking maps that have appeared in recent issues? I dislike them and don't think they fit the genre very well. I can't always tell what's a wall, what's water, and what's a pattern on the floor. I don't have this problem with other maps. Am I stupid? (we've already established that I'm an a+!@~#$, we can skip that question.)
Finally, apologies around the room for the angry feelings. I'll try and be somewhat less controversial in my thread titles and be more aware of the people on the other side of the magazine I love.
Sebastian
PS - Chris West: I was actually thinking of the Flood Season maps as examples of how good adventure maps can be when I posted. It just happened that you did the map of mystery in the back of the most recent issue and that was the issue I had on hand. I'd pay good money for a compilation of your modern rpg maps. (hint Paizo, hint.)
PPS - Kyle Hunter: Aren't I using a piece of your art as my avatar? I can't really have that much of a personal vendetta against your work, can I? We cool?
I don't think the maps suck at all, but I do prefer the more clear cut black and white maps of Dungeon of old. However, the snazzier graphics are meant to attract the newer generation of gamer, I believe. People are jaded nowadays and want cool graphics, color, whizz bang effects in everything--movies, board games, everything. The less "sophisticated" gamer might not buy a magazine that has black and white maps.
Having said that, some of the more colorful maps introduced in the last 4-5 years of Dungeon are pretty too look at, but do lose some detail sometimes. I can see why Sebastian was disappointed with the maps he said "sucked"...they were small and hard to see detail, but they're not unusable.
I think that with the new stat block format, I would rather see half-page maps with harder to see detail than be forced to use canned monsters or "see DMG NPC table" for my encounter details that I need to run the adventure.
I would rather see 3-d black & white maps totally geared towards DMing functionality than 2-d color pretty, shaded maps, if I was given a choice, but I'm very old school when it comes to this kind of stuff. I don't think all the artwork is really all that necessary (at least to me), but I know that it helps sell the magazine in stores, so it's cool with me.
I'm glad you liked the Lucky Monkey map from Flood Season, Eleazar! That one took a good bit of work. For me, 3d = 3 times the work because I don't generally use 3d software in my mapmaking.
After sketching up maps by hand and scanning them into my Mac, I use Adobe Photoshop almost exclusively. While I may generate some textures in other sources, they, too, invariably go through much enhancement in Photoshop while being incorporated into the finished illustration.
Combined with the small birds-eye view of the actual Inn, the Lucky Monkey map was awesome. After they killed Tongueeater, my players examined it with "oohs" and "aahhs" for several minutes, commenting on how nice that map looked.
Okay, now that I've also brown-nosed Christopher, the kind of map that I would be totally happy with first appeared (to my knowledge anyway) in the old module "The Lost City" by Tom Moldvay. I'm talking about the 3-D black & white map of the subterranean City under the step pyramid...that map was wonderfully useful and really gave the DM a great idea on how the whole place was laid out.
However, if that kind of map was drawn with todays shadings and colors, it would lose all that useful detail. It would look cool, but it wouldn't be as useful in a practical sense.
Personally, I like the digital style maps. I grew up with the graph-paper and "graphically challenged" pencil, so I appreciate how the format has evovled.
I was going to post a question about the maps, but this thread beat me to it. My question would have been (and I suppose it can be viewed as a slight critique): Do the maps in DA128 seem a bit small and "scrunched"?
Since I am in the middle of a hectic semester, I really haven't been able to do more than flip through the pages. This month's stood out as being "difficult to use".
That being said, I have no qualms or criticisms with the artists involved--I like the textures and the "content" of the maps. I just found this month's to be a little hard to "read."
Overall, I think the general quality of the maps and magazine(s) as a whole is(are) very good. (A little flattery aways helps :)
But, that said, (You knew that was coming!) I do agree with multiple posters in this thread that the digital maps are... subpar. To clarify, by digital I mean the ones from the Eberron Adventure Arc. As icebreaker mentioned, the lack of drop shadow, among other things, failed to give them depth and realism. I completly agree with his mock-up map, and believe something as simple as that could improve our enjoyment of the magazine.
And, to Chris West and Kyle Hunter, among others: Your work is greatly appreciated, and I, as well as others, don't want you to get the impression that we are ungreatful for the help you provide in makeing Dungeon the great magazine we all know and love. So, thanks, and I hope there are no hurt feelings!
Now, get back to work, you slackers! ;)
WaterdhavianFlapjack
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Sebastian wrote: "I'd pay good money for a compilation of your modern rpg maps. (hint Paizo, hint.)"
It's in the works. Look for the d20 Modern book "Critical Locations", from WotC, later this year. It collects all of the Global Positioning Maps that originally appeared in Polyhedron with a whole bunch of new pieces. :)
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Ummm sorry nope i disagree with just about everything you just said.
Be an ass, expect to be treated like an ass.Manners are there for a reason, to treat people with the respect you would ask to be treated with and to garner some level of civility in a conversation.
Many sites keep a firm reign on what type of dialog is acceptable and many don't.
Just because alot of people act like they are shooting the breaze with their buds and the type of dialog usually degrates to vulgar slams like at www.aintitcool.com for example doesn't make it accepable in all conversations no on all sites.
The argument "well everyone else is doing it on the net" doesn't hold water.
I adhere to the polite and intelligent discourse theory. If you want to be taken seriously then take the time to explain yourself. I tell my two year old to "use his words" instead of throwing a fit; I should be able to expect better from other adults.
On the topic of critiqueing works of art (visual, written or otherwise) I offer the following:
The "value" or "meaning" in any given work of art cannot be measured by any standard unit or rule. It is a subjective phenomenon. Art has meaning through association (i.e. it's subject represents something), utility, communication or as it's own phenomenon (as with something like stonehenge).
When something is associational in its value it can mean different things to different people unless the subject it is intended to represent is clearly defined. In most cases it is not. So, as the critic it is your responsibility to establish the conditions for success even if it is only your personal opinion. You can then evaluate the piece by how well or poorly it measures up to the conditions you have set for it.
There are plenty of examples on these boards of people doing this for writters. Everybody has an opinion on how the plots or characters or settings or technical game stats are meeting thier expectations or not. When you're discussing art just do the same, simply state the expectations up front and state why the piece measured up or not.
I'd love to follow this by offering my opinion on the art & cartography in 128 but I don't have it yet. I'm generally of the opinion that fantasy themes are better suited to hand rendered art & cartography as computers do not fit with the setting. Art & Maps with a digital quality impede my own ability to suspend my disbelief and get into the mood. That said I'm concerned I may not appreciate Kyle's cartography as they've been described as having a digital quality but I'll reserve judgment until I see them myself. At the worst the maps would not represent my preferences and to claim anything different would be a vast assumption on the universality of my tastes and opinions. At best I might actually like them inspite of thier digital quality.
That's my two cents.
Cheers,
C.
The "value" or "meaning" in any given work of art cannot be measured by any standard unit or rule. It is a subjective phenomenon.
When it comes to maps in Dungeon I measure their value using the Metric System but I suspect many of my peers still use the Imperial system.
More serously if I need a magnifying glass to get a good feel for whats depicted on the map then its too small. In fact in general I think many of the maps in Dungeon could be blown up a bit more - say like 20%. I'm not as young as I used to be and I have this sneaking suspicion that most of my peers arn't as young as they used to be either.
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Can I add here that putting two kinds of each map in the Online Supplements is an incredibly huge plus in my book? The maps in Dungeon are always far nicer than my old-school pencil-and-graphpaper maps, and I like that I can print them out, blow them up, cut them into sections and otherwise improve play speed.
I dont have a quiston about the maps, but I dont want the akward feeling of creating a new thread that may already have an answer Im over looking but....
In the Fire Place Level. The Vampire Lord is a CR 21 and with a lvl 14 party, I dont see how they could ever win. Am I just making some little mistake about advantges they may have?
Thanks Rob. Much more kindly put than my post.Kyle may have reacted strongly, but it is natural for him to be frustrated.
For a moment, please imagine what it's like to toil away for extra hours for the below market rates of a niche industry. Then imagine that a lot of what you get in return is b%%!!ing.
Even if artists and authors work primarily for the love of the game (which most do), eventually they throw up their hands and move on to videogames or something else.
Moral of the story... Be excellent to each other. If you are going to offer criticism, you will probably get further if you don't open with "You suck!".
I'd like to chime in also since Mr West produced maps for the article that I had published and I was 121% happy and 103% chuffed at it.
Well done chief, keep up the good work!
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..Ummm sorry nope i disagree with just about everything you just said.
Be an ass, expect to be treated like an ass.The argument "well everyone else is doing it on the net" doesn't hold water.
I think icebreaker just proved GVDammerung's point.
artists and authors get the critics they deserve. While I enjoy the maps in Dungeon and love the Downer strip, I agree that they can sometimes be too small or too digital. I usually redraw all the maps because, Hey! I'm vain and I think I do a fair job myself. this way I can adapt the adventure to my own campaign setting. If you are an artist or a writer you should take critics as par for the course. Some have valid comments, some do not. Don't shoot the messenger.As an aside, I have had most if not all my published work critized. When I got angry with a critic, I usually discovered they were right. Did it stop me from still working? No. Will it stop Mr. Hunter? I hope not.
One thing I've noticed: I was reading 128, and noticed that alot of the issue's maps are done by Robert Lazzareti.(sp?) I really like his style, but is he on these boards?
WaterdhavianFlapjack
I have no qualms or criticisms with the artists involved--I like the textures and the "content" of the maps. I just found this month's to be a little hard to "read."
I would like to be associated with the remarks of the previous speaker.
If I may suggest a workaround? The online supplement PDF's usually contain larger versions of the maps. I am probably unusually fortunate in that I have a printer in the office that runs off a 42" roll of paper and can print maps at tabletop scale, but even A3 copies should be easily clear enough.
One thing I've noticed: I was reading 128, and noticed that alot of the issue's maps are done by Robert Lazzareti.(sp?) I really like his style, but is he on these boards?
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Rob hasn't been a poster on the boards, but I know that he does pop in and read them from time to time.
Sean Glenn
Art Director Dragon and Dungeon magazines
Rob hasn't been a poster on the boards, but I know that he does pop in and read them from time to time.Sean Glenn
Art Director Dragon and Dungeon magazines
Thanks.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
I'd have to agree that the Shut In maps are far too dark to comfortably read. Also, the stairs were confusing. To answer Kyle Hunter's earlier question, I do prefer the lines with arrows on smaller scale staircases. I don't think that approach is particularly successful for large stairs (such as your Scorpion Temple map).
in general, I dislike maps with a "rendered by computer" feel. They seem sterile to me, and the simpler ones seem cheap*. I can handle sterile in a modern/sci-fi map, but that's not what I'm looking for in fantasy. By far I prefer something that feels hand drawn, such as the maps from the Forgotten Arch and Dead Man's Quest adventures, to name a few recent examples.
*just to define"cheap"; I'm not referring to Christopher West's approach here, or Kyle Hunter's Shut In map style, which would certainly have been acceptable if it had reproduced lighter. But the style used for the Scorpion Temple map, for instance, reminds me of maps from certain mid-90's Call of Cuthulu supplements: clunky, basic, and lifeless.
Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, just IMHO and TVOTC (the voice of this consumer).
~Quaildar~
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Geez people, is civility utterly dead in our industry?
Not dead. Still, it is a two way street. One can't respond to someone being rude with rudeness and expect the situation to improve. I wouldn't expect you to let someone tell you that you suck without responding, but as you admit, you did respond more strongly than perhaps you meant to.
Here's why things suck, as you so graciously put it. Very few of us actually make a living off of the little odds and ends we do for the magazine. That means that we cram these projects in wherever we can fit them. Often things are rushed, miscommunicated, or simply don't out the way we plan.
This is a regrettable state of affairs, however, I don't want to pay more for my product than I am already. Still, while obviously I'm not paying the cost for a single map from you (or any other artist) I am paying for a product. To expect that the product meets my expectations is certainly not unreasonable. The magazine only exists because of subscribers. Subscribers have paid in advance for a particular level of quality that they may or may not get. While you can certainly desire greater compensation (or more time) you can expect that the readers will complain if something fails to meet their standards. While civil discourse would be the most preferable option to polite people, as I said before, to respond impolitely is not conducive to the moral high road.
Honestly, the map for Shut In ended up about 50% darker than I predicted with color shift. It was hard to read. Not my greatest momment. But you know what, that's no reason to be a public jerk to me about it.
I'm glad to see the OP apologized earlier in this thread. I won't go into the details about what I think he should or should not have said, but I don't think he intended to be a jerk toward you. I think most of the posters on this board consider it a way to communicate our desires to the staff of Paizo, without regard to the artists involved. While that may be a mistake, it seems one we're prone to. This is a public forum and I don't think any poster is trying to "hide" their opinions, but they're not always aware of who might read it. Still, I think that it is better to have the option of knowing what is said about you and your work directly, instead of hearing (or not hearing about it) from 3rd parties that were privy to the communication (say, if the comments above had been included in a letter or e-mail to the staff directly).
I abhor the anonymous empowerment message boards give fans.
As do I. I'd love to introduce myself to each of the artists featured in Dragon and Dungeon so that they can see I'm not a crazy freak, and I've got some good suggestions along with my criticisms. Unfortunately, that isn't really an option. I'm only anonymous because I can't make myself known. I'd hate for you or anyone else on these boards to go out of their way to find flaws in my daily activities since I doubt they'd have much interest in them otherwise, but you have to realize that we have a great interest in your activities as they relate to the magazine.
But boy am I sick of "your maps suck," and "Downer sucks."
And I think you have every right to be. Downer is a comic that I personally dislike. That isn't your fault, and I don't blame you for it. It isn't because "Downer sucks" - there are a lot of good things about it. It just doesn't appeal to me. Defining this is difficult, but using the word "sucks" to describe something that doesn't appeal to an individual is a shorthand (and lazy) way of making that statement. The word, however, has little meaning anymore beyond "not pleasing to me". Usually the word suck is used when no more valid criticism can be offered.
I just wanted to respond to some of your comments in this thread and say that I think you've responded more "harshly" than I think is appropriate on more than one occassion. That of course is your right. Still, if you're willing to be harsh in your own defense, I'm not sure that you can expect/demand courtesy from others. It is a two way street, and I haven't seen you willing to take the high road in the past. However, I'd like to clarify that this isn't intended to be an attack against you. I believe you're a wonderful person. As are most of us on these boards. Still, "Often things are rushed, miscommunicated, or simply don't out the way we plan" when we type on these boards.
In more general terms, I don't have any specific criticisms of the recent maps. I would like a more "organic" feel in general. I personally can't wait until 4th edition because I'm hoping they'll replace the 5-foot-square with a 2-foot square. I'm tired of every room being at least 5'x5' (as represented on maps). The room I'm currently sitting in is probably 9'x12'. I'm tired of buildings that have 5' wide doors and hallways, even if they house goblins, because that's what a "square" is defined as. I'd also like to see walls with "depth", which may be one of the problems other posters have identified. It is impossible to fit a 2'thick wall onto a 5'grid without creating one or more partial squares.
I also liked the "improvement" on the Scorpion Temple maps. I think that does illustrate how to improve them. I also don't mind black and white maps that are well done, though "pretty" maps are certainly nice if they're done well. I like a map that allows me to describe the room without recourse to the boxed text, so all in all, digital maps are better, though there is room for improvement. Like in so many aspects of our lives.
Good grief.
Good grief.
Those two words give a good summary of this entire thread, and are my pick for post of the month, but only in conjunction with all that has gone before. :)
GGG
My subscription tends to come in a little later then most, so I only got 128 over the weekend. Haven't read it all yet, only one of the adventures, "Shut In" along with the CWs and the like.
Since I get my issues late I almost always have a "that's what all the fuss was about?" moment as I read through them since it's a rare month that somebody doesn't complain about something. This month I guess it was the maps, so as I read the issue I made a point of checking out the maps. Guess what?
That's what all the fuss was about?
The maps seemed alright to me, but since I'm not one of the ten ascended masters of cartography maybe I missed some subtle nuance in the design. I feel pretty safe in saying they would accomplish their intended purpose, helping me get a party of adventurers from A to B and then maybe even C (if they make any applicable saving throws :) ).
On the stuff I did manage to read. "Shut in" was great, wonderful atmosphere, an unusual -not to mention exquisitely memorable- villain. I think I definitely noticed some homages to Poe in the adventure, but for some reason I also had a nagging suspicion that Faulkner was an influence as well. It's been a long time since I've dipped my beak into that particular writer's works, if there's anyone who can tell me why my subconscious was nagging it would be appreciated.
On the CW's, it would have been nice if there had been more, but you can't get everything and the two that made it in were both useful.
I was impressed that Ashavan had the courage to reveal the seedy underbelly of gaming life :)
(since apparently PLAYERS frequent dozens of bars as opposed to CHARACTERS... :) )
O.K... That's it!
Guys who work at Dungeon Magazine : You guys rock! Continue the fabulous work, you all got my vote (and subscription for the next three years).
Sebastian : Go to your room!
Now don't make me go over there!!!
Ultradan
On the stuff I did manage to read. "Shut in" was great, wonderful atmosphere, an unusual -not to mention exquisitely memorable- villain. I think I definitely noticed some homages to Poe in the adventure, but for some reason I also had a nagging suspicion that Faulkner was an influence as well. It's been a long time since I've dipped my beak into that particular writer's works, if there's anyone who can tell me why my subconscious was nagging it would be appreciated.
It reminded me of various aristocrats and former aristocrats from novelists like Henry James or Charles Dickens. . . in particular, Dromdal reminded me of Mrs. Havershum from Great Expectations. The jilted mother in that story, refusing to bend to the winds of change, nursed her her icy heart to slowly turn her own daughter against the world. She shut herself up in her house, if I remebmer, and was incapable of altering her nasty little world view.
I loved the tone of the adventure, as well as the cool diplomacy charts. I only wish it was a bit longer.
Incidentally, I went to the Copper Lute last night for Monday Night Football. . . I tried to play my guitar for a few beers, but Toran booted me out. He said I was scaring the customers. It was still a good time, so thanks for the directions, Ashavan!
Incidentally, I went to the Copper Lute last night for Monday Night Football. . . I tried to play my guitar for a few beers, but Toran booted me out. He said I was scaring the customers. It was still a good time, so thanks for the directions, Ashavan!
Toran would never boot you out!
As for recommending restaurants - for mexican, try Ninfa's - there should be one in the Houston area. I used to go there as a kid. Good tortillas.
- Ashavan
Wow! I leave the room for 5 minutes and all hell breaks loose!
On the stuff I did manage to read. "Shut in" was great, wonderful atmosphere, an unusual -not to mention exquisitely memorable- villain. I think I definitely noticed some homages to Poe in the adventure, but for some reason I also had a nagging suspicion that Faulkner was an influence as well. It's been a long time since I've dipped my beak into that particular writer's works, if there's anyone who can tell me why my subconscious was nagging it would be appreciated.
It reminded me of various aristocrats and former aristocrats from novelists like Henry James or Charles Dickens. . . in particular, Dromdal reminded me of Mrs. Havershum from Great Expectations. The jilted mother in that story, refusing to bend to the winds of change, nursed her her icy heart to slowly turn her own daughter against the world. She shut herself up in her house, if I remebmer, and was incapable of altering her nasty little world view.
I loved the tone of the adventure, as well as the cool diplomacy charts. I only wish it was a bit longer.
Ha! Everybody's right, more or less... there was definitely some Mrs. Haversham in there for me, and while I think Wes leans more towards Stephen Crane in his twisted poetry, there's nothin' wrong with a little Poe. (Personally, Ligi still tops my Crazy Poet List - if you can find a copy of "Disturbances" on the web somewhere, snap that thing up!)
Really, though, I think Wes just wanted an excuse to write about his grandmother's house....
-James
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I'd love there to be a peer review forum for cartography, and to talk on a professional level about what the fans want, and what does and doesn't work.
For those of you interested, I've decided to create just such a forum. The discussion group is RPG Cartography on YahooGroups.
Here is the URL: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/rpgcartography/Trent Slabaugh
For those of you interested, I've decided to create just such a forum. The discussion group is RPG Cartography on YahooGroups.
Here is the URL: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/rpgcartography/
Neat! Have signed up for it!