While the quality of Wil's writing was actually pretty decent, it simply had nothing to do with D&D, and Wil knew that. By quitting this assignment, he finally acknowledged what we had been saying all along; Wil Save was never about D&D. Now, if he had really pursued a genuine D&D column... well, that would have been different, but he just couldn't stop talking about himself (and whatever non-D&D topic flew across his radar), and frankly that gets old after a while.
In any case, I look forward to seeing what Mr. Mona will fill that space with.
Personally, I would like to see something devoted to Greyhawk. More critical threats? Maps? Ancient lore?
Surprise us, but make sure it releates to the subject.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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For issue #125, which just went to the printer last week (and before I knew for sure what Wil's ultimate decision would be), we simply reprinted the cover image, with no logos or "sell text." While I like the idea of doing that, I will probably replace the column with something more substantial for future issues.
Maps of Mystery are probably most likely at the present time. I've been looking for a way to sneak them back into the magazine, and this seems like a good solution for me for a number of reasons.
I will miss Wil Save. I understand that it is not universally loved, but for me I thought it was a nice "exit" from the magazine and I thought it offered a different perspective on the life of a gamer and brought a "human" element to Dungeon.
I understand that not everyone values those elements as highly as I did, or as highly as many of the readers who regularly emailed me to say that Wil Save was the first thing they read.
But what's done is done. To survive in the business of professional writing, you've got to be able to listen to your critics and know what comments to discount and what comments to take to heart.
Some of the comments in this thread were very hurtful, and contributed directly to Wil's decision to quit the column. The squeaky wheel really did take home the prize in this instance. Congratulations, everyone.
Personally, I will miss working with Wil and I will miss having the column in the magazine. On the other hand, solving crises and deciding what will go on which page is a regular part of my job, and I'm enjoying the challenge of deciding what to do with that last page.
Here's hoping that decision doesn't generate another 600 posts of vitriol. ;)
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
Here's an idea: another column with author name recognition -- Rob Kuntz could write 'Robilar's Rant.'
I'm only half joking.
Regards,
Jack
"Here's hoping that decision doesn't generate another 600 posts of vitriol. ;)"
You heard him, people. Strict 599 post limit on this next one.
Wil Save is the first thing I read each month. I love it, it's gamer-tangental and cleanses the palate nicely.
Get Wil back, Erik.
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But what's done is done. To survive in the business of professional writing, you've got to be able to listen to your critics and know what comments to discount and what comments to take to heart.
Some of the comments in this thread were very hurtful, and contributed directly to Wil's decision to quit the column. The squeaky wheel really did take home the prize in this instance. Congratulations, everyone.
I'm not sure which comments Wil found offensive that he couldn't discount, but I'm sorry that the circumstances of his leaving were not as pleasant as I had been led to believe. I'm still glad the column is gone - not that it couldn't have been improved - but there are a number of things I would prefer to have done with that space. A reprinted cover (sans text) is one I've suggested before.
Erik - I don't really know what your personal opinion is of me. I know you liked Wil Save, and you well know that I didn't. There were comments in this thread that were "over the line", and I'm sorry that Wil couldn't simply discount them. I do think there were a number of valid criticisms as well. One of the criticisms offered up multiple times was a failure to understand and speak to his audience. I think that those of us contributing to this thread may be guilty of that. In general we conceived of our audience as the editorial staff of the magazine, and other readers as a secondary consideration. I for one, never thought that Wil would bother reading this thread. I know I never once spoke directly to him.
In any case, comments about Wil's column, directed toward another individual, obviously are more hurtful to Wil when he "overhears" them. Consideration for his feelings is generally absent when it is assumed that the subject is unaware of the specific comments. I didn't mind some general pressure from the editorial staff - something along the lines of "Well, there are quite a few people that don't like your column because it doesn't seem to be about D&D..." In some sense, presenting our position with the tact that we chose to neglect.
So, Wil, if you're still following this thread - I'm sorry that people said hurtful things to you. I can't speak for everyone, but that was never my intention. I'm sorry I didn't take a stronger stance against people who were making personal attacks against you. Although they may have had the same ultimate objective in mind, I can't agree with their tactics. So, I'd like to offer you my heartfelt apology that those of us who didn't enjoy your column didn't make it clear enough that we didn't object to you personally.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Erik - I don't really know what your personal opinion is of me. I know you liked Wil Save, and you well know that I didn't. There were comments in this thread that were "over the line", and I'm sorry that Wil couldn't simply discount them. I do think there were a number of valid criticisms as well.
I agree 100% with your sentiment. To a certain degree, every page of the magazine is "mine," in that at the very least I decided what to put in the magazine and where to put it. By that standard, 560+ posts griping about "my" magazine should be enough to send me into deep depression.
As it happens, I have significantly stronger skin than that. Criticism (yes, even "whining") often is very helpful in making decisions about what to do with the magazine. Other times, as in the case of this thread quite frequently, it is noise.
Basically, I stopped reading this thread ages ago. It was absolutely clear that some readers deplored the column, and reading insult after insult isn't really helpful when you have a pretty good idea of the column's flaws and its qualities.
Despite this thread and the large number of negative opinions posted about Wil Save herein, my belief (based on my editorial instinct and letters to the editor) was that the column was, in general, a "plus" for the magazine, and was worth keeping.
Wil, as a busy guy, worked the calculus a little differently, and the column has been junked.
Honestly, I'm fine with it. Although I think Wil is a very talented writer, I really wanted to column to focus a little more tightly on the D&D experience, which Wil found difficult to do since he wasn't actively playing D&D.
Now I have an opportunity to do something else with the space, and there's a good chance that something else will be more uniformly popular (if not quite as provocative) than Wil Save.
Despite attempts made in other threads to start up some kind of fight, I don't hold ill will toward anyone who posted to this thread, or to anyone who posts on these messageboards in general, including people who have little to offer but pointed criticisms of me and my work on the magazines.
One of the great things about Dragon and Dungeon (and D&D as a whole, as I think about it) is that the readers and players have a strong sense of ownership over "their" game and "their" magazines.
That sentiment has kept the whole thing alive for 30 years, and it'll still be around long after I've moved on to something else. Before I was in the business professionally, I felt the same sense of ownership, and I think that sense (and responsibility) informs most of the decisions I make about the magazine on daily basis.
Basically, a lot of you are crabby. I'm pretty crabby too, at times. It's called being a gamer, and it is absolutely part of the territory.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
I agree 100% with your sentiment. To a certain degree, every page of the magazine is "mine," in that at the very least I decided what to put in the magazine and where to put it. By that standard, 560+ posts griping about "my" magazine should be enough to send me into deep depression.
Dude, don't let it get you down. DUNGEON is at a whole new level of great since you've taken over. So one thing you tried didn't work out. No biggy. You've taken the magazine color, monthly, nicely bound. You've created a great format where each issue has adventures of a spread of levels. You've fostered Campaign Arcs and Adventure Paths. Your writing within the magazine is fantastic, and you have inspired me to run countless adventures. I'll be buying the AP Hardback, and continuing to renew my subscription.
ASEO out
And I promise, this will be my last post on this thread.
And I promise, this will be my last post on this thread.
LOL!
So, Wil, if you're still following this thread - I'm sorry that people said hurtful things to you. I can't speak for everyone, but that was never my intention. I'm sorry I didn't take a stronger stance against people who were making personal attacks against you. Although they may have had the same ultimate objective in mind, I can't agree with their tactics. So, I'd like to offer you my heartfelt apology that those of us who didn't enjoy your column didn't make it clear enough that we didn't object to you personally.
I think it takes a rather big man to stand up in public and apologize, DeadDMWalking. For whatever it's worth, you've earned a far amount of respect from me...
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He apologizes over repeated and disgraceful treatment of a writer over a concerted pattern of MONTHS and he's a "big man" for saying I'm sorry?
Does not know what was said that might have upset him??
They are both insensitive jerks. ASEO, who started this thread - has fed it along throughout. Like a log circling the toilet as it swirls the bowl on its way down, ASEO's language has degenerated and become more plainly vile and insulting as this thread has carried on.
And yes Erik - the topic should have been locked long ago.
Save the "I'm sorry" bit for when you knock over a vase by accident in your mother's living room. When you got a guy down on the floor and you keep kicking him in the nuts - walk away - come back again and KICK HIM AGAIN and do this repeatedly over a period of well over half a year - "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it; it's not even close.
He apologizes over repeated and disgraceful treatment of a writer over a concerted pattern of MONTHS and he's a "big man" for saying I'm sorry?
Does not know what was said that might have upset him??
They are both insensitive jerks. ASEO, who started this thread - has fed it along throughout. Like a log circling the toilet as it swirls the bowl on its way down, ASEO's language has degenerated and become more plainly vile and insulting as this thread has carried on.
And yes Erik - the topic should have been locked long ago.
Save the "I'm sorry" bit for when you knock over a vase by accident in your mother's living room. When you got a guy down on the floor and you keep kicking him in the nuts - walk away - come back again and KICK HIM AGAIN and do this repeatedly over a period of well over half a year - "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it; it's not even close.
Yes, this is going to be spiteful. Once I've said what I am going to say I'm done. If it gets brought up by someone else that's fine.
I don't work for Dungeon. I have read Wil Save. I have often read it first. It was a quick read. I really didn't have an opinion on it one way or the other.
That said I agree with Steel_Wind. I was planning on checking back in at post number 666, to see if the same six or so people where beating the same dead horse. I imagine you would be had Wil continued writing.
I can only imagine how much time you wasted on something so pointless. You could have done walk-a-thons to raise money for charity or to beat cancer or AIDS. You could have written articles for Dungeon or a letter to the editor of your local newspaper exposing corruption or some civil injustice. You could have done a lot, but like syndicated episodes of "Saved by the Bell" you just told the same old joke over and over.
I agree with Erik about not shutting this horse and pony show down. I don't know how he could stand it though. Erik has to be polite and professional - sales figures and all but he must have gone to the Customer Serive Special Force School to avoid the temptation of slipping a letter bomb in some people's subscriptions. Like I said Erik has to be polite. I don't have to be.
I believe in Freedom of Speech. Its fine to have an opinion. Its fine to express that opinion in a concise and logical manner. There are some fair arguments on this thread, but the bile that poured out of the people who posted 50+ times here (after the argument was made) was just pathetic.
ASEO, you don't 'tell it like it is' all the time so please don't put on airs. I know I've read. This was intended to be a public lynching (by your own admission). You made your argument in the first entry. Since then you have taken cheap shots like some schoolyard sadist, while the others regulars backed you up chuckling like Lumpy Rutherford clones. Sometimes you all take a break to slap each other's back and comment on how 'witty' you've been. Go ahead, read your own posts. I dare you.
Out,
GGG
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He apologizes over repeated and disgraceful treatment of a writer over a concerted pattern of MONTHS and he's a "big man" for saying I'm sorry?
You know, I didn't offer that apology to you. I offered it to Wil, so I don't really care if you think I'm trying to be a big man or not. Still, I'd like to make one thing clear. I did not apologize for the things I said about Wil or Wil Save. I think that my comments have generally been topical, well-reasoned and polite. There were times when there was interesting discussion about the strenghts and weaknesses of the column, and I think I had something to do with that. My apology was not for the words I said, but the words I did not. I should have taken a more active role in differentiating Wil Wheaton the man and Wil Save the column. There were a number of 'defenders' of Wil Save that blurred the person with the column, as well as a number of attackers. I reapeatedly said I had nothing against Wil Wheaton personally, and I directed my comments toward the column.
Does not know what was said that might have upset him??
No, I don't. Do you? I can see that there are comments that are designed to be hurtful. I'm used to dealing with people who can't present a coherent argument and resort to name-calling. I care nothing for their opinion, and discount them without a thought.
They are both insensitive jerks.
I've also been able to refrain from making personal attacks even when someone attempts to provoke me. Now, I can understand that you're upset thta Wil Save is gone, and I don't blame you for that. Still, I'd like you to realize that it is hypocritical to begin using the tactics you thought were inappropriate to begin with. I'm just sorry to see you lose any moral high ground you might have had, if you were interested in pursuing this topic.
Save the "I'm sorry" bit for when you knock over a vase by accident in your mother's living room. When you got a guy down on the floor and you keep kicking him in the nuts - walk away - come back again and KICK HIM AGAIN and do this repeatedly over a period of well over half a year - "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it; it's not even close.
I think you're mischaracterizing both my intentions and my actions. I think you're "not even close". I have repeatedly indicated that I don't like Wil Save, but that I do like Wil Wheaton. The two are not mutually exclusive, and that is why I'm sorry if I said anything that hurt his feelings, and I'm sorry that I didn't do more to keep others from doing so.
I'm learning. Even before I made my apology I called Yamo out for "gloating" and general poor sportsmanship.
I had hoped that the conversation after Wil's column had been removed could avoid becoming acrimonious. It's obvious that I was wrong.
Now, my complaint in general is that there are a number of posters both here and at ENWorld that think they are mature. Still, they're just as guilty of making personal attacks as anyone on this thread, and they're advocating the creation of a column that is worse than Wil Save simply to spite those of us who are happy that it will no longer be in the magazine.
That doesn't seem very mature to me.
Wil Save would have stopped being a part of the magazine at some point regardless of my opinion on this thread. Wil has a busy life, and he's hoping to reinvigorate his acting career, as well as improve his career as a writer. Those are no easy tasks. The manner of his departure has made some of us scapegoats. If you need someone to hate and blame, by all means, use me. Still, if you want to make public accusations, I'll happily address them in a public fashion, and I have a significant body of written text in this thread to support my character and disposition.
I hoped throughout that our disagreements could be civil. I still hope that can happen.
And as for the statement that I could have spent my time engaged in other pursuits, that is certainly true. I admit that I enjoyed participating in this thread, at some times more than others. I enjoy a stimulating debate, and at times this reached that point. The best example is between Wormysqueue (sp?) and myself earlier.
So, in short, nuts to you.
"ASEO, you don't 'tell it like it is' all the time so please don't put on airs."
I generally agreed with his posts (and laughed at them), so I guess that's a matter of opinion.
"I'm learning. Even before I made my apology I called Yamo out for 'gloating' and general poor sportsmanship."
Hey, I don't see this discussion as a sport. And I do love me a good gloat. Ahhhhhhhhhh. ;)
The fact that Wil bowed due in part to the criticism he received here does not make the critical posters involved any worse (or better) for doing so. Nor do any apologies on the part of the posters; opinions will be expressed, people. Get over it. Wil simply chose to see the wisdom in what was expressed here and acted accordingly.
I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO INVITE EVERYONE THAT HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS THREAD TO AGREE THAT WITH 'WIL SAVE' NO LONGER IN THE MAGAZINE, THE TOPIC IS NOW DEAD.
Let's end the merry-go-round of debates and counterarguments and focus on other interesting topics on these boards. Check out the brown molds thread or Marc Chin's interesting evil Shackled City AP campaign thread (or my own campaign, if you're interested, though it's not quite the read that Marc's is) or the suggestions being made about a replacement for Wil's article.
Whatever floats your boat, but PLEASE retire this one.
No, you don't have to add a new post quoting me and responding to it or posting a reply like "Yeah, you're right, Steve." Or "Get bent, dude." Just quietly walk away. Thank you.
I've made a number of posts on this thread. Generally, they do a good job of indicating that I'm not fond of Wil Save. Now, however, I have to say that the most recent column has left me enraged.
Now, the reason may not be obvious to everyone, so I'll take a moment to explain what his column was about, before I explain my reaction. [snip] This month Wil explains that even when the opportunity presents itself, Wil has refused on the grounds that he doesn't have anything prepared. Well, Wil was upset at himself, so he borrowed the adventure "The Orc and the Pie" and ran his stepson through it.
Now, I understand not having a lot of time to prepare a game. I also subscribe to Dungeon. Does Wil even know what magazine he's writing for? Has he ever read it?
[snip]
Maybe he doesn't like running pre-made adventures (but then, why did he download and use the "Orc & the Pie?) or maybe he thinks Dungeon adventures are pretty pathetic.
I've come to think his column is what's pretty pathetic.
If we are still casting stones here...
I thought this post went way beyond the realm of normal criticism. I realize DeadDM wasn't the only one.
I also was pretty negative about Wil's column, I recongnize he was a good writer but also he was having problems with material and 'finding his voice'. Yeah he probably could have made a better effort DMing for his step kids but I am sure he didn't feel confidant and wanted their first experience to be great.
He certainly deserved better from Dungeon readers, critics or not.
Edit: I certainly agree this thread should die quietly, as I hoped it would 9 pages ago. This whole episode has left a bad taste in my mouth.
Craig, see my above post. Please.
ASEO out
And I promise, this will be my last post on this thread.
ASEO...I know you feel you can't respond to this, given your last statement. I'm hoping this is the last comment to this board but no one has said it yet (as far as I can tell) and you need to be congratulated!
You did it Man! You proved that one man can make a difference and deserve a well-deserved HURRAH! You saw this drivel and thought it was unsat for our magazine, and through perseverance you had it ousted!
Again, Congratulations for a campaign well fought and thanx for doing this service for all the folks who agreed with you!
ASEO…YOU ROCK and no one can take this away from you!
DRIVE ON AND STAY FROSTY!
Why the resurrection on this thread? Must be some sort of clever "inside" joke that only the cool people who went to the meet & greet at Origins know about. Are you going to chuckle on with your "insider" cleverness or are you going to share the reason for the resurrection of this badly decomposed and beaten down topic? Otherwise I say--let dead horses lie....
By special request some thread necromancy....BRING BACK WIL SAVE!!!!!!
Discuss
I like maps of mystery. I like Wil Save. can't the penut butter and chocolate go together, sometimes?
Hmmm... a true resurrection must have been cast on this tattered old thread. I thought we were done with this :/
Die, die, die . . . why won't you stay dead?
I liked Wil Save.
Mostly.
I'd allocate a page to it.
Cost like, what, ten cents?
Die, die, die . . . why won't you stay dead?
If you were one of the cool people, you'd know. The resurrector stated that he was casting a resurrection on this thread on a thread where he talks about how he went to the meet & greet at Origins. This thread must have been discussed. The cleverness knows no bounds, especially since he has yet to explain why this thread was brought back to unlife. Oh well, I quiver with anticipation to his sharing his inside knowledge.....oh wait, it was gas instead....
If you were one of the cool people, you'd know. The resurrector stated that he was casting a resurrection on this thread on a thread where he talks about how he went to the meet & greet at Origins. This thread must have been discussed. The cleverness knows no bounds, especially since he has yet to explain why this thread was brought back to unlife. Oh well, I quiver with anticipation to his sharing his inside knowledge.....oh wait, it was gas instead....
The 'thread necromancy references this fairly new post I think:
http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/articleRequests/bringBackWilWheaton&a mp;page=1#84094
I enjoyed Wil's writing. But then, I still get to enjoy his writing as Geek Editor elsewhere.
K, I've read about half the thread and gotten bored.
1) I disagree it's badly written.
2) I agree it'd be better in Dragon.
3) What DOES "ASEO" stand for? The Oklahoma thing?
4) I disagree that the inward-looking perspective of Wil's writing style, or his celebrity status, cheapens the content.
5) I agree that we could benefit from a different writing style or perspective.
6) What the heck is this "Ed Greenwood Rape Fantasy in an Article" thing? I can't see it.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Die, die, die . . . why won't you stay dead?If you were one of the cool people, you'd know. The resurrector stated that he was casting a resurrection on this thread on a thread where he talks about how he went to the meet & greet at Origins. This thread must have been discussed. The cleverness knows no bounds, especially since he has yet to explain why this thread was brought back to unlife. Oh well, I quiver with anticipation to his sharing his inside knowledge.....oh wait, it was gas instead....
Once you piss off one of the kindest people on the boards, you know you've gone and truly screwed up.
For the (pseudo)-OP: this is the original flame war of the Paizo boards. Go reread the thread, note that on page 1 (page 1!) people are commenting how this thread is one of the most posted ever. This thread is a relic of a bygone era when these boards were first created and this community was new. And yet feelings are still raw.
For everyone else: This subject is dead. I recommend that whatever your opinion, you kindly refrain from posting. Wil Save is not coming back - what you personally think or feel about that fact or this thread is entirely irrelevant and serves only to stir hostility.
Wil Save may not be coming back, but I guess the thread is. Can we debate whether or not this thread should be brought back? Or do we need to do that in a separate thread?
Once you piss off one of the kindest people on the boards, you know you've gone and truly screwed up.
Thanks, Sebastian. I have my bad days as well sometimes, where I'm not such a gentle soul :)
I just wish locke would tell us why in the world he dug deep into the archives to bring this back up. If it's an inside joke, share it. If the reason is dumb, share it as well, we've all done dumb things, me especially.
Protest is fuel to this silly fire. If we stir no controversy, this topic will be over and done with and leave no footprint nor ballad of its continued worth.
After all, it's worth, even if the improbable stuff of legend in some circles, was not due to its harmless question, it was due to plague of insulting generalizations that were tossed around like a flock of sh*tebirds through a jet engine. All the energy absorbed by that elitist black hole of a flame war...
Forgive us, those who don't understand why the topic might make a few of us suddenly taste a lunch-flavored vinegar at the back of our throats.
::Hearing 'Veteran of a 1000 Psychic Wars' by BOC::
Well, AESO, there appears to be some jealousy. When you are hired to edit DUNGEON, then you can
fire Wil. Until then, <shut your f***ing pie hole>. Not everything has to be a commitee. Maybe, just maybe, someone over in dungeon knows more than you do. The mag continues to fly off the shelf. Keep turning in those resumes. I doubt you will get much of a response.
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Senior Software Developer
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Please don't make me close this thread.
The paizo.com messageboards are a uniquely polite and respectful place for the exchange of ideas and commentary. I believe this thead is one of the reasons why this is so.
Most discussion on the internet is a tempest in a teapot -- people can say incredibly inflammatory things without consequence, so they do. (See Penny Arcade's take (not safe for work)).
I believe strongly that this thread taught us all a hard lesson: What we say here has actual impact on real life. In this case, the insults brought by a few caused a real live human being emotional harm.
In the end, I think there was a positive result -- the shame felt by the community has resulted in a heightened sense of propriety. And the paizo.com messageboards have benefited, by being a better and more civilized place. And we have all benefited by having a better place to discuss the things we truly care about.
I would much rather we simply let this thread rest in peace than have to lay the heavy hand of closing it. If you have something that you feel needs to be said, let's start a new thread.
You're absolutely right, Gary. I apologize to locke1520 for my sarcasm, which would have been more restrained had he shared with us the reason for reopening this long dead discussion.
In your role at Paizo, don't you appreciate it when a flaming thread finally dies from attrition and neglect? Maybe topics like this should be locked or just removed from the archives altogether.
Anyway....I'm sorry locke.....
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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FTK-No apology needed. The reason for the post was because of a passing conversation I had with someone at Origins. They said someone should post on the wil save thread...then we discussed the april fools art and random titles...I was intrigued and said I would post. That was it.
Although I have never been accused of being one of the cool kids before. So thanks for that ;)
The reason I haven't told you why before now is that I haven't been on my computer since I posted the other day. I should have probably read the thread in better detail before bringing it back. I didn't expect the vehement responses I triggered. So to all the folks on these fine boards I may have irritated--I am also sorry.
Be nice if posts more than a month old had a light grey background or some other formatting difference to assist in noting when a thread is old and doesn't merit a response.
+2 Circumstance to Spot Checks and what not.
Does Paizo have much in the way of programmers? Or is the forum a third-party utility?
“The gaming life,” that phrase gives me the creeps.
My sister calls it the gaming "get-a-life".
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I've just been over on the wizards boards, trying to read through over 500 posts regarding Gleemax. I've read 481 of the 519 (hopefully there aren't more yet).
At that point, I was struck by something.
I really wish I could still be discussing how much I disliked Wil Save. Those were the days, huh? When we were so confident in the magazines continued existence that we could get caught up in one (it was really two pages) page.
I'm looking forward to Pathfinder, but I don't think it will ever have the same appeal that a discussion (which this was most of the time) like this will have had. I don't expect anything in Pathfinder that I won't like. I guess that's a good thing.
But I'm still sad.
Just to annoy those who did not Like Mr. Wheatens column, can we have Will save in Pathfinder?
Test?
This text is posted in an attempt to trigger a hidden surprise....maybe?
Pot-stirrer.
Test?
This text is posted in an attempt to trigger a hidden surprise....maybe?
Its like a bad movie which gets endless sequels.
Return of the Dead Thread IV
Wil who?