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"So what if it IS the long-awaited, much-clammored for Greyhawk Campaign Setting that we've been telling WotC to put out for the last 5 years?"

That's the best possible outcome of all this, and the one I'm hoping for.


Heathansson wrote:


But to leave the ship floundering in the waves, that way lies peril.

Understand: I love Erik's Greyhawk work. I love the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (see my detailed, praiseful review at RPG.Net if you like) and I love the way he's gotten things like Rob Kuntz's Maure Castle into print.

I'm just thinking of Gary here. None of us would be playing today if it wasn't for him and I think he deserves better than to have his livelihood targeted like this by releasing a competing version of the same project around the same time.

If a WotC Castle Greyhawk book making Y amount of money means Gary making X - Y amount of money on his version, than I am against that. More respect ought to be shown to man who came up with the material in the first place.

So Erik should do Greyhawk, but if he wants to do a dungeon, he ought to do his own and not try to swoop in and "scoop" Mr. Gygax. Why be so crass when there's still a whole Flanaess out there to explore?


"If you think that Greyhawk should hang there eternally in some kind of limbo, then fine. There's those who would disagree."

Did you miss the part where Gygax is already working on his multi-volumn release of the Castle project? Or that the first volumn is already out?

Sure "Greyhawk" has become "Dunfalcon" due to legal requirements, but that is not exactly a lot of obfuscation. Hardly "limbo!"


"And, as a GH fan, I don't think it has to be EGG to be good."

The Castle is Gary's baby, plain and simple. Sean Reynolds can do his own dungeon. So can Erik.

Not only that, but Gary is already in the middle of publishing the Castle on his own through Troll Lord Games. Trying to beat him to press at the last moment and take money out of the man's pocket with an unauthentic knockoff of the project he created and has lately labored so much on is low. Low as a damn dirty snake. It is just wrong.

"Castle Greyhawk is only for Gygax? Fine, let him publish it again, cinema and terrible star trek jokes and all."

Everybody with any knowledge of D&D knows that Gary had nothing to do with that project. Your statement is too ignorant to be meaningful.


Erik,

I recently found out about this preview video via this thread on Dragonsfoot:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19542&postdays=0& postorder=asc&start=0

Please say it ain't so!

Authoring a product deliberately calculated to beat Gary Gygax's more authentic (and, let's face it, inevitably higher quality, unless the Nine Hells have frozen-over) version of the Castle to print is an affront of the highest (lowest?) order! That would be trying to steal both the thunder and the money from the very father of our game and using the fruits of his own creativity to do it. That is VILE!

No true Greyhawk fan could ever do such a thing for any amount of money or career advancement, nor any true lover of D&D.

Plus, nobody who wasn't a key part of the original campaign could even begin to do that project justice, anyway. The results would be shamefully unauthentic and clearly ring so.

For the love of Orcus, say it ain't so, man! If you have to do a Greyhawk product, let it be anything but this!

I very much need you to restore my faith in a man whose work I generally enjoy and the only way you can do that is by flatly (and truthfully) denying these rumors.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I can understand the nostagia that people feel for Greyhawk, though I am not one of them - I only began to play D&D seriously from 3E, so Greyhawk is a pretty peripheral concern to me (I used to play RQ as my main game when I was a nipper, as I found 1E and 2E D&D clunky). As a high level overview, I don't see anything very definitive about Greyhawk. It seems to me that the "world" of Greyhawk has been cobbled together from a series of basically unconnected adventures by St Gary of Lake Geneva and given a sort of "significance" as a world as an afterthought. Maybe a lot of worlds start that way, but as it is the generic world for D&D it fails to feel very special.

No offense to you in particular, but I find it extremely telling how gamers expressing this sentiment almost never have any direct experience with the setting. They haven't sat down and read through a good Greyhawk primer like the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and, more importantly, they haven't had the good fortune of being a player in a good Greyhawk campaign.

There's a lot to be said for not judging a book by its cover. I myself knew nothing about Greyhawk before I picked-up a copy of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in 2000, so there's clearly a lot more appeal to the world than just idle nostalgia.

I'd give it a real test-drive with an open mind if I were you. You may be pleasantly surprised.


Make hit points equal to Constitution. They never increase. Any single injury that deals more than 1/2 max HP (rounded-up) in damage causes a permanent impairment like reduced stats or a destroyed or crippled limb or organ if a Fort save (DC 10 + amount of damage dealt by the injury) is failed. No magic can raise the dead.


"Now if you were going to talk about uber powerful characters, I thought you might bring up Larloch (42nd level lich)."

I guess that's the difference between villains and other NPCs. Villians can be crazy powerful because they're supposed to be able to challenge a whole pack of heroes at once. It's only when you have NPC heroes that can challenge a whole pack of villains that you have a potential problem. :)


Knight Otu wrote:
Yamo wrote:
Oh, I see.
Of course, some newer books don't quite follow that idea. There was a huge outburst on the Wizards boards about a cleric capable of resurrection "on demand".

Figures. "Power creep" is a strange thing. It seems to affect a lot of game worlds. White Wolf's World of Darkness games were especially known for it. And Forgotten Realms, of course. It's kind of fun in a "gawking at an auto accident" sort of way to read through the various FR suppliments and see how much more powerful Elminster got with each passing accessory. He went from a high (15-20 level, I think) wizard-sage in the original boxed set to a 40+ level monster with a whole suite of special god powers who can pimp-slap Cthulhu and get away with it in the newest book. :)

Why this happens, I have no idea. Maybe one writer creates a game option that is just a little more powerful than what came before (possibly without really meaning to) and then future writers feel like the ante has been upped somehow and they need to top the last guy? And so on and so on. I dunno.


Knight Otu wrote:


It's super high-level NPC Heroes, or NPC Allies. Entities like Vol, the Dragons, the daelkyr and the Rajah are definitely high-level NPCs. NPC allies usually are only high level if they are somehow limited in their freedom of movement, such as the Great Druid Oalian (awakened tree; technically mobile, but prefers to stay rooted) or the Keeper of the Flame Jaela (11-year old girl; loses most of her powers outside of Flamekeep).

Oh, I see.


I thought Eberron wasn't supposed to have super high-level NPCs? Am I just misremembering, or was that part of its original design plan?


"Let's stop blaming this on the bikini-clad rendering of a female adventurer. My wife is not offended by such images at all."

Cosmo still sells, alright.

"I mean, even the hit show Desperate Housewives doesn't portray the average housewife (not in any neighborhood I've ever lived in anyway. *sigh*)."

Pretty much all other television with a primarily female demographic is the same way. Sex in the City was a big one, too. The female half of the Friend's cast. Soap opera, of course.

All of modern society is sexualized, and the (arguably unfortunate) fact is that almost nobody wants plain-looking people in their fantasy entertainment. It's nothing unique to gaming. In fact, gaming is rather tame in this regard when contrasted with most forms of entertainment (probably owing mostly to the fact that it's most popular with straight men who don't mind "cheesecake" art, but aren't actually very comfortable playing-out romantic and sexual scenes with each other at the gaming table).


I must admit that I was distinctly dissapointed in D&D 2 after seeing it talked-up so much in the column.

Despite what was said, I actually found it worse than the original. The first one may have been ridiculous, but it was fast-paced and aggressively silly, not lethargic and dull. Heck, D&D 1 ended with Damodar in a (cheesy glowing) swordfight with the hero, while D&D 2 has him spend a minute or so running away on horseback and then just giving up without a fight! Some villain! It's almost like Bruce Payne charges one fee for reading lines and another for doing a fight scene and the cheapo producers could afford to pay one, but not both.

Boring movie. I can forgive campy stupidity, but not utter lifelessness.


I would like to see the series cover all the Greyhawk gods (including the ones not in the PHB) before it goes anywhere else.


"First, I was a biology teacher before becoming a Marine and I still say the whole biological explanation was not only unneccessary but *took away* some of the mystical *feel* of the force as demonstrated (not explained) in episodes 4-6."

Well, this is something that one either agress or disagrees with. I happen to disagree, but that's just me. I think it adds more dimensions to the way the Force operates without taking away from any.

"R2 is NOT just a toaster."

Perhaps not for the audience, but it's made pretty clear that the living characters in the films treat them as either non-sentient disposable mechanical slaves or, at best, somewhat like household pets. They're not seen by anyone as fully "human."

"As I said, I view the newer movies as inferior because they contradict more than compliment or add to the original series."

I see no contradictions whatsoever.


Great Green God wrote:
"I am the most power jedi ever." doesn't hold much weight when you are constantly loosing limbs in lightsabre duels.

That's true, but remember that Anakin talks about BECOMING the most powerful ever. He knows that he has the potential, but his pride and anger keep him from achieving it. Instead, he makes a deal with the devil and ends up crippled and enslaved. I think the notion that he was well on his way to becoming the most powerful ever is demonstrated pretty well by his improvement in his second mach with Dooku and his ability to almost beat Obi-Wan before falling victim to hubris ("Sure, I can take a fighter who has the high ground, I'm the freakin' CHOSEN ONE"). Sidious, at least, seems pretty confident that Anakin will one day eclipse both him and all the Jedi (he actually says this to Yoda, I believe).


"And they're boring. We already know people with the force can sense it in others (i.e. The force is strong in this one.), and are hereditary (i.e. The force was strong with your father.)"

Actually, assuming that we watch the movies in numeric order, we don't know that by this point in the saga.

As for the scene where midichlorians are explained, it's only a minute or so long, not anything that takes up a large portion of the film. I have no major issues with it. Then again, I'm a big biology nerd and think mitochondria are pretty darn awesome. :)

Anyway, the main reason I don't think they should be considered objectionable is that they don't change what the Force is. They're just like sense organs for the Force, not the Force itself. Kind of like how some people have better eyesight than others or have bigger muscles. They can simply sense better and do more work because of their physical endowments.

If the ability to sense and use the Force was all about belief and enlightenment with no physical component, than anyone could potentially master it and a hereditary Force ability would make little sense.

"I were Obi Wan I would have fired Anikin if he had always acted that way and that's the only way I ever see him acting in Episode II."

I think all the Jedi would have if they could. Unfortunately, you can't fire the Chosen One, no matter how much of a moody teenage jerk he is. :)


Wow! There is a lot here!

"The Force is a ...,well, force that connects all living things. Sorta a spiritual thing and people have to 'believe' in it for it to work (Luke, 'I don't believe it"' Yoda 'That is why you failed'). Nope! In tPM, it is now just some funky bacteria that either exists in your blood or doesn't."

Midichlorians serve three functions as a plot device:

1. They establish how ability to use the Force is hereditary.

2. They give a concrete backing to Qui-Gon's intuition about Anakin being the Chosen One. The Council can dislike Qui-Gon and his methods (which they do), but they can't ignore the numbers and hence they ultimately can't ignore Anakin.

3. They play into the films theme of symbiosis (as with the Naboo/Gungan relationship).

"Anakin and Obi-Wan were once good friends until Anakin turned. Nope! In episodes 1-3, they barely get along and their relationship is almost always 'father-figure/teacher to rebelious child'."

It's not necessarily a contradiction. Most parents and children love each other, but that doesn't always prevent some pretty epic strife now and then!

"Anakin was already 'a gifted pilot' when he and Obi-Wan first met. Nope! In tPM he's just some bratty kid who 'accidentally' flies a starfighter near the ridiculous finale of this senseless episode."

He's the single, solitary human in the pan-galactic sport of podracing who can even operate the vehicle well enough to not kill himself. That is a what I call gifted! He also performs some pretty slick maneuvers with a flying car in Clones and a starfighter in Sith.

"Yoda trained Obi-Wan ('You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who trained me') and then, against proper proceedure, Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin."

I can say that my fourth grade teacher trained me, and be very correct, but that doesn't mean that I didn't have a third grade teacher, too.

"Nope! Qi-Gon, one of the most shallow useless characters to grace the series (and that's saying alot), trained Obi-Wan and despite some resistance Anakin was assigned to Obi-Wan as an official student."

Obi-Wan did threaten to Yoda that he would train Anakin without the council's permission before that permission was granted. It's made pretty clear that the whole arrangement is unique and that the Council is not happy with it at all.

Also, I loved Qui-Gon. He was the ideal Jedi, really. He has more compassion and humanity than any other Jedi we meet and is willing to break the rules to do what's right (no unyielding adherence to Jedi Code dogma).

"Brother Owen tried to keep Anakin at home, working the farm. He disapproved of Anakin's association with Obi-Wan, thinking they should keep to themselves and 'not get involved'. Nope! Does Obi-Wan ever even meet Owen at any time during episodes 1-3?"

Yes. At the end of Sith.

"Anakin only meets him all of 10 seconds of screen time and he's not really his brother anyway - they have absolutely no history or relationship."

Well, step-brother.

"R2D2 is kind of an awkward little droid. He and C3PO assumably met just prior to being assigned to Captain Atilles."

I always got the idea that they has been pals for ages. They already bickered like an old married couple in New Hope.

"They don't know who Princess Leah is..."

Well, 3P0 doesn't. R2 would have known, however, since he was never memory-wiped.

"R2 can fly (why doesn't he do so in a thousand more appropriate times in episodes 4-6)"

I can't think of any other time that it would be helpful.

"has an arsenal of weapons"

Really? I only remember the electric zapper thing that I think was first seen in Return of the Jedi.

"*belongs* to Obi-Wan"

He belongs to Padme, then Padme/Anakin.

"C3PO has never been to Tatooine. He is a protocol droid who was originally assigned to communicate with binary load-lifters, though he is unfamiliar with moisture-vaporators. He doesn't know who Luke is, Leah is, Obi-Wan is, or even any particular foreknowledge of Vader. Nope! Anakin builds him, for crying out loud, though at eight years old he is able to construct him to perfect specs in comparison to the other protocol droids seen throughout all six movies. The young boy also somehow programmed Threepio in over 'six million forms of communication' - none of which apparently enabled him to simply tell Luke all about his father Anakin/Vader and sister Leah."

He doesn't remember any of that, having been "memory wiped" at the end of Sith.

"Luke & Leah are twins who were separated at birth. Leah remembers her mother being very beautiful but very sad. She died when Leah was young. Nope! If Leah remembers her mother she's got the best memory of all time since she now dies when the twins are born."

That's the Force for you. What does Yoda say about seeing othet times and places and people long gone? :)

"Speaking of memories, Obi-Wan must have the worst memory of all time. Not only does he not remember R2's existance, he also forgets Leah even exists, since he says 'that boy is our last hope' to which Yoda replies 'No, there is another'."

Obi-Wan must not believe that Leia is up to it. This is more an issue with Return of the Jedi, though.

As for R2, there are a million R2 units in the galaxy, and it's not inconcievable that Obi-Wan might think of him like you or I think of a toaster. Are you going to recognize your specific toaster from twenty+ years ago when you see it? Not just the general model, but the specific unit? I wouldn't.

"The technology of Anakin's childhood and teenage years blows away the crap they're using fifty years later."

Nah. It looks shinier and more ornate, just like cars in the 1930s and 1940s versus the 1970s, for example, but it's not really more functional in any way I can see.

"Count Dukoo leads a rebellion (couldn't they have used a different word) but then murders his allies in favor of his other ally the Emporer. After a fruitless pitched battle against Count Dukoo in AotC, it takes Anakin all of ten seconds to cut off his hands and then decapitate him in the ill-concieved battle in RotS."

Anakin has had years to get better, and he is the Chosen One...

Anyway, I just like to argue. Feel free to ignore me.


HK wrote:

But in the end, I still have to contend that most criticism that is being applied to today's trilogy can be applied, in earnest, to the original, therefore it is further my contention that most critics are longtime Star Wars fans whose real complaints are that the Star Wars films did not mature along with them (Episode III not-withstanding) and less about the film's merits (or lack thereof). I have a strong suspicion that the children who are growing up with this trilogy will love it just as strongly as we love the original; and in 20 or so years when an aged Lucas decides to make Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, there will be a similar controversy taking up space on some messageboard in some obscure corner of the web.

I feel that you are 100% right. Why do I say this? Because I didn't see any of the films until I was sixteen (around 1995-1996), and I tend to like them all pretty equally. I think that this is mostly because I don't have a nostalgis perspective born of seeing the older films as a younger, more impressionable and less critical child.


In my experience, published Star Wars RPGs have always made the mistake of focusing too much on the period of time covered in the films. They are filled with things like big blocks of stats for Luke Skywalker, and so on. This is a mistake because it actually intimidates many potential players by emphasizing the knowledge that their adventures will never be the "real story" that takes place during this time. Like a Lord of the Rings game set during the War of the Ring. Players like to be the center of attention and the most important, and there is simply no bigger, more important story than getting that ring to Mount Doom. Hence, unsatisfied players.

A much better approach would be a game set many years before or after the films, where none of the principal movie characters exist. There's no "real story" to contradict, so you scare a lot fewer potential players off.


"For some reason the trade federation is harrassing Naboo and trying to kill Padme, right?"

Palpatine enlists the Trade Federation to invade his home planet of Naboo so that he can call for a vote of no confidence in the current Supreme Chancellor once the senate proves unwilling to deal with the situation decisively and so that he can generate enough of a sympathy vote for himself to be elected the new Chancellor.

He wants Padme to sign a treaty giving up power to the Federation to increase the sympathy factor by making it seem like the Federation has bullied this poor young girl into giving up her planet's independence (and then probably killed her). When she instead escapes and comes to him for help, he makes the best of it by using her to call for the vote of no confidence instead, which distances him from the process and makes it even less apparent that he's manipulating things to his own benefit.

Palpatine is quite the cunning bastard. This is part of the reason I like Phantom Menace so much. It has a simple, idealistic plot on the surface (saving Naboo and finding the Chosen One) and a cynical, multi-layered one below the surface (Palpatine takes over the Republic, so the "good guys" actually lose and don't even realize it). This scheme is most apparent in the ending scene, where the music is the Emperor theme from Return of the Jedi sung by a children's choir during a parade!


Marc Chin wrote:
Yamo wrote:
Hey, maybe I'm alone, but I like all the movies pretty equally. They're good pulpy fun, but not high art. Maybe it's best not to overanalyze a simple series of kid's action flicks?

I'm with Yamo on this - all arguments have merit here, but in the end it's all redundant...because at the core, it's all just Saturday afternoon megaplex fare - good fare, or bad fare, it's up to you.

My big thought on the matter has always been:

How much richer and more colorful the Star Wars pantheon and story would've turned out, if Lucas would have been willing to release the movies as 'PG-13' or even 'R' all the way through the series...

An 'R' rated "Revenge of the Sith" as a "horrors-of-war drama" would've topped "Empire Strikes Back" as the gem of the series, in my book - let's hope that an avante-garde filmmaker in the vein of Lucas purchases the rights from his estate in about 40 years and remakes the entire series...

M

I agree and disagree. I would not have minded a PG-13 Clones, but an R rating in current American cinema generally requires drug use, sex or lots and lots of profanity. That all obviously has no place in Star Wars, so you'd essentially have to get an R rating just based on violence, which would require so much blood and guts that it would be almost ridiculous.

Phantom Menace definitely needed to be a G. It's important that in retrospect that part of the story seem like it took place in a more genteel, "innocent" time. Not only does it reflect Anakin's moral development, but it contrasts all the grim story developments in Clones and (especially) Sith. That contrast and progression (and the way that the tone of each of the first three films is mirrored in Anakin) is important, I think.

And, as a practical matter, the movies are supposed to be largely an "all ages" family affair. I would not feel comfortable showing a young child a series of R-rated flicks. On a purely selfish level, I'm an adult, but I don't want to seriously entertain the idea that I should be the whole target audience for Star Wars.


I thought the dialog was okay. Very cheesy, in a "Commando Cody and the Radar Men from the Moon" sort of way, but that's the idea. Big, broad melodrama like that is the antithesis of the "naturalistic" school of dialog writing. I think that more Star Wars critics would do well to go back and look at the real period source material that inspired it (1940s sci-fi serials). It really sheds some light on what Lucas was emulating (he even has a "Commander Cody" in Sith).

The only issues I had with that particular volumn are nitpicks. I thought it was a bummer that the shapershifter assassin's abilities were never really utilized to any effect and that Mace Windu got to kill Jango Fett after they movie had taken so much time setting-up Obi-Wan and Jango as enemies.

Overall, though, it advanced the story and had some very cool action sequences, so I think it did its job. I may be a little overly negative simply because I don't tend to enjoy middle acts as much as the beginning and ending of a story, though. Kind of like how I loved the Fellowship of the Ring movie, but left the theater feeling pretty indifferent after Two Towers or how Empire always seemed like kind of a slog to me after the initial excitement of discovering the Star Wars galaxy in New Hope.


Hey, maybe I'm alone, but I like all the movies pretty equally. They're good pulpy fun, but not high art. Maybe it's best not to overanalyze a simple series of kid's action flicks?


Laeknir wrote:
Yamo wrote:
Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.

Er... maybe at some peoples' houses. Certainly not all. Throughout college, and even now in grad school, we regularly have women gamers at our tables.

Yamo wrote:
You might as well ask why more men don't knit.
Doesn't seem like a good analogy to me... most of the women I know don't know how to knit.

Most men I know don't roleplaying.

Besides, we're talking about rules here, not exceptions. Of course some women roleplay. Or course some me knit. But there is a reason that you see certain hobbies dominated by a factor of about 10-1 by a single gender and that reason is that society as a whole has formed somewhat of an informal consensus on which activities are suitable for which genders. It's contradicting a lot of current anthropology, sociology and psychology to maintain that these sorts of social factors are anything less than extremely powerful shapers of human behavior.


Gaming is not socially-acceptable for women. It is something unwashed, poorly-socialized male dorks do.

You might as well ask why more men don't knit.


It is in my top three with New Hope and Phantom Menace.


James Jacobs wrote:

It probably would have been a good Dungeon adventure, but it would have also taken up over half of the magazine. As it is, I think that WotC updating old adventures and putting them up on their website for free is an excelent move. I hope they do more!

Oh, don't worry about that! As long as you don't do it more than two or three times a year, the boosted sales and raves from the fans will more than make up for the few complaints you get about devoting half the issue to a converted classic.


The system just breaks down at that level, IMHO. A lot of this has to do with the fact that the game was originally designed for levels 1-20 and it shows. If you have an hour or two to run each battle and another hour or two to stat individual NPC antagonists, go for it. Otherwise use a simpler game that runs very powerful characters more elegantly. Mutants & Masterminds is great for this, since it doesn't have to be about superheroes unless you want it to be. A high-level D&D character is definitely a superhero anyway. Many even have the cape to prove it. :)


Here you go! It's a great book.


"Umm..isn't generic D&D basically Greyhawk?"

Maybe in the sense that Spam is basically Black Forest ham...


Personally, I think the wizard only looks "bad" compared to the other standards for dedicated spellcasters: The druid and (especially) cleric. Whether they're weakened or the wizard is strengthened, the problem would be solved either way.

Personally, I am all ditching all for "prepared" magic in the next edition of the game entirely and merging the wizard with a beefed-up (1d6 HD) sorceror to form a better base arcane spellcaster.


I think a similarly hyperbolic case could be made for any high-level character being too strong. I don't think it works out that way in play. The warlock's schtick is very narrow and he doesn't subsume or replace any other class.


Anything that lets you play a wizard type while circumventing the standard D&D magic system is a good thing.

This class reminds me more of a comic book superhero, which can be a fun thing, depending on your point of view.


Check the original edition of Dieties & Demigods (later published under the alternate title Legends & Lore). Used book stores and eBay are good places to look for it.


Now that you mention comic book ads, it was one of those that first got me interested in D&D.


Sharpe wrote:
Actually, there is a book out there that breaks down the game, although kids might be put off by the title, "Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies." It has the "be a cleric," "be a fighter," "be a sorceror," and "be a rogue" all set down. All sorts of suggestions are in the book about feats and spells. They also have stuff on working together during fights and a couple of encounters already laid out. Of course the bad thing is that they'll be stuck with just those few encounters...

You're recommending a 430 page book?

The one I learned on was 64 pages and worked just fine. I reckon that's a more resonable size goal for an introductory game.


Koldoon wrote:
Yamo wrote:


Remember, D&D is currently run by a company that has made its fortune on faddish collectable games. They are used to boom-and-bust and are ill-equipped to implement (or even formulate) a plan for a stable, renewable D&D community. They only care about the next big sales spike from Edition 3.983766b or the new Flumph Assault minis booster packs.

I have trouble characterizing Magic the Gathering as a fad... 12-13 years is an awfully long fad.

- Ashavan

It's a misconception that fads don't last. Skateboarding was a fad in the 80s, but there are still skaters now. Just because Magic is still around doesn't mean that it wasn't a fad in the 90s. It's just diminished in stature from the peak of its fad popularity.

The problem with marketing toward creating new fads is that you're never looking beyond the next big sales spike. Like a junkie living for his next fix.

Hence the attitude that a simpler, more affordable D&D game line for new players is a poor investment. Sure, these new players might be purchasing at the level of your current die-hard customers in a few years, but that's not going to help figures in the upcoming Winter quarter, is it?


Fake Healer wrote:

Unfortunately, it looks like Wizards doesn't care to expand their user base. On another post it was estimated that the average age of D&D players is around 26-28. Kinda scary. Those of us who are 35ish remember the Basic Sets fondly and wish for a way to intro newbies to the game. I personally don't want to troll around for old rule sets. I would rather have a new D&D game geared towards younger players. I don't understand Wizards marketing strategy. They make the minis line "collectable" (another words expensive if you want a specific mini for roleplay) which is geared towards younger gamers, but they make the books uber-expensive and way out of reach for younger gamers to afford. This strikes me as a bad marketing strategy in almost every way.

FH

Remember, D&D is currently run by a company that has made its fortune on faddish collectable games. They are used to boom-and-bust and are ill-equipped to implement (or even formulate) a plan for a stable, renewable D&D community. They only care about the next big sales spike from Edition 3.983766b or the new Flumph Assault minis booster packs.


Orcwart wrote:
Hmmm...For me, the above comment confirm my suspicions. Also, there has even been mention that some mentoring is required for young players. Surely this is not going to become a game whose security lies in it's arcane secrets being passed from one generation to the next like an encrypted codex?

Agreed!

I had the damndest time understanding AD&D as a kid. I went through the motions with some older players, but it was arcane and complex and I never really grasped it (or wanted to, because it's just not fun to learn something that Byzantine when you're a kid with a kid's attention span!). Once I got my copy of the Red Box set, I was able to gain an through understanding of the game all on my own in a short time and that is a good thing, because I otherwise would have likely not bothered with any form of D&D again after those first few cryptic AD&D sessions.


Green slime bard. I suppose he might be able to make some burbling/farting noises to inspire his allies.

Alternetely, green slime rogue. It's hard to pick pockets while you're also dissolving them.


Laeknir wrote:


It's just a shame that WoTC doesn't make a... I don't know... for lack of a better word... "Basic" Game. In a boxed set. With a few minis thrown in, like Lidda and Regdar. And with play-cards that are similar to card games for the younger set, as a transitioning element. Too bad they don't have that.

Oh, they do, actually. The fundamental problem is: It's still a simplified introduction to a too-complex game when what's needed is a simplified introduction to a simplified game.

The cart is being set before the horse, in effect.


Chris Wissel - WerePlatypus wrote:
I'd like to add that kids are smarter than you guys think. . . I was playing AD&D when I was 10, and running when I was 12.

Problem is that not everybody is like you. Personally, AD&D was insufficient to woo me into the hobby as a kid. It left me completely bewildered and uninterested. It took "basic" D&D to bring me into the fold (red box, baby!)


I must say that personally I blame the game. The current version of D&D is suited for intermediate to advanced RPG gamers. There's nothing wrong with that (I'm one of those, after all), but what beginning players need is really a seperate, simpler game with fewer options.

For example, I would go with just fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue for classes, go back to set XP values for individual monsters (eliminating the CR system), simplify combat by ditching AoO, ditch feats (or rather, have special class abilities pre-set by level as in previous editions) and simplify skills (using the Unearthed Arcana method of all class skills being based on 1d20 + class level + ability mods and non-class skills being based on 1d20 + ability mods). Kind of like how the last generation of players was encouraged to start with "basic" or "original" D&D and then graduate to AD&D later, I suppose.

I suspect it would end up looking a lot like Castles & Crusades rather than the current D&D.


cwslyclgh wrote:
I actually prefer rather undipolmatic criticism of my own work, sugar coating just obscures the issues... however I also prefer that the criticism tend to be helpful in some way... I ignore "You suck" type crticism as the non-statement that it is. however I tend to consider the criticism of somebody who tells me what they think I am doing wrong and why very highly, even if it doesn't change my own opinion in the end.

Well, yeah. It's not really criticism when there's no explaination. That's just a plain old attempt to insult somebody.


I like the idea of publishing only the best of Class Acts. It's a great idea, and more freedom from formula will let it be used to its full potential.

Core Beliefs sounds great. I will say that one thing from the Demonicon that I hope doesn't migrate to Core Beliefs is stat blocks. Both the most gigantic and least interesting and useful thing about a D&D diety is its stat block. I also maintain some hope that the series will branch out to other Greyhawk dieties once the PHB ones are covered. Wastri, baby!


James Sutter wrote:
1) Everyone is entitled - and qualified! - to offer an opinion/criticism, whether or not they personally could "do any better". Some of the best editors I've worked with can't write to save their life, but have an amazing ability to recognize and quantify what is and isn't working for them as a reader. You don't have to be able to build a car from sheet iron in order to soup up/trick out one that's already been built. (That metaphor may be bad - I know nothing about cars - but you get the idea.)

Moreover, even editors who definitely can write (like Paizo's), may not have equal facility with guiding and overseeing all types of publications. Kinda like how Mick Jagger would probably turn-out a pretty lousy symphony and Mozart would probably pen a pretty lousy bluesy rock song.

Witness Dungeon being so consistently brilliant and Dragon being so consistently blah.


I say "kie (like pie) us."


I only use them in systems where they're much rarer than they are in most versions of D&D. 10% of attacks being potentially critical hits or fumbles is far too much for me. Put it at 1-2% and we'll talk.

I think they should really stand out as rare occurances. You shouldn't see one in most game sessions.


GVDammerung wrote:
The critic finds themselves not caring about the author or their work enough to carry the torch any more. The critic abandons the author and the author’s work. The criticism stops. Remaining interest for the critic is more academic than anything actually felt. Doubtless, the “offended author” imagines they have “won.” And after a fashion, they have.

Very true. If you chase-off or ignore anyone who isn't an outright sycophant, then you get to bask in nothing but positive feedback. But at what cost in self-deception and self-marginalization?

I sometimes think that the Dragon and Dungeon staff fall prey to a minor, probably unconscious variation on this theme when they don't take heed of threads on various internet forums (including this one) where former subscribers discuss why they don't patronize the magazine anymore. Since the current subscribers support the mags, former ones that might be persuaded to do so again if the format was changed to something they're more familiar with (that is, something recognizable as the same mags from the 80s and 90s by other than name) and potential future ones who might be more attracted to a different format are deemed not to matter. The only people that do matter are the ones voicing immediate approval in the here and now. But how much does that perspective hold one back?

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