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Drat and botheration -- a second Adventure Path visit to Lost Omens Campaign Setting-era Ravounel and it's another that will focus not a whit on institutions or politics. I should probably count my blessings that at least it won't re-present the canned stuff from the Campaign Setting book as if five years hadn't passed since the campaign setting changeover and as if almost a decade hadn't passed since the first AP visit.
I like!!
Creative Director
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Drat and botheration -- a second Adventure Path visit to Lost Omens Campaign Setting-era Ravounel and it's another that will focus not a whit on institutions or politics. I should probably count my blessings that at least it won't re-present the canned stuff from the Campaign Setting book as if five years hadn't passed since the campaign setting changeover and as if almost a decade hadn't passed since the first AP visit.
There's a fair amount of politics and institutions, and it very much does build upon the events that played out here in Hell's Rebels and in Age of Ashes... but it's presented mostly through the lens of "Your PCs are putting on an opera and you need to do a lot of gladhanding, sponsor-chasing, and other sorts of social encounter stuff to make sure the opera is well funded, advertised, supported, and has the resources it will need."
We haven't had a good chance to really talk about the themes and goals of this Adventure Path yet at al, apart from this store page. We will eventually, but until then, it's best not to make TOO many assumptions about it! :-)
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but it's presented mostly through the lens of "Your PCs are putting on an opera and you need to do a lot of gladhanding, sponsor-chasing, and other sorts of social encounter stuff to make sure the opera is well funded, advertised, supported, and has the resources it will need."
Which is telling of just how little wherewithal the confederal or communal governments have to sponsor or endow artistic endeavors from the public treasury, and just how completely the hope as of 4719 that its people might "build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society," Sutter et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens World Guide, at *105 (2019), has been betrayed.
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Zimmerwald, it's truly beautiful that you've kept at like a decade straight of posting about a real-world historical equivalency to Golarion that only exists within your head and the "novelization" of Hell's Rebels you said you wrote.
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Why is this guy so deep into the “Ravounel is actually a failed state. Trust me.” Train?
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Creative Director
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but it's presented mostly through the lens of "Your PCs are putting on an opera and you need to do a lot of gladhanding, sponsor-chasing, and other sorts of social encounter stuff to make sure the opera is well funded, advertised, supported, and has the resources it will need."Which is telling of just how little wherewithal the confederal or communal governments have to sponsor or endow artistic endeavors from the public treasury, and just how completely the hope as of 4719 that its people might "build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society," Sutter et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens World Guide, at *105 (2019), has been betrayed.
Maybe wait a few months before you jump to conclusions? Or perhaps look forward to a different Adventure Path? We do four of them a year these days, so hopefully one of them will be of interest to you and won't feel like a betrayal.
Personally, I'm incredibly proud of the hard work the authors have put in to create what is one of the most unique and unusual Adventure Paths I've had a chance to work on yet. But no, this is not an Adventure Path where Ravounel's government subsidizes the PCs' goals and removes from them the need to go on an adventure. It is, in fact, PART of the plan to "build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society" by creating a new world-class production that will put Ravounel on the art-scene's center stage as its own thing rather than a subset of Cheliax for the first time.
That sort of thing doesn't happen overnight.
That said, if you've got a different set of ideas you'd like to explore in your own version of Golarion where Ravounel is a failed state, that's fine! That's not a theme we're embracing as the published baseline. Please don't mistake "we haven't published adventures in Ravounel" for an indication that we intend to leave the new nation to fall apart through intentional neglect. We can't tell every story all at once.
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All I want to know is...
Will the BBEG take such a long!!!!! time!!!!! ... to!!!!! ... argh ... argh ... argh ... die?
(If there isn't at least three Discworld references per book in this particular AP, I will consider it a failed experiment.)
I'm not a fan of Discwolrd, so any references from that in here will be accidental or sneaky references from authors that I didn't catch on account of me being Discworld-ignorant.
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It is, in fact, PART of the plan to "build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society" by creating a new world-class production that will put Ravounel on the art-scene's center stage as its own thing rather than a subset of Cheliax for the first time.
That sort of thing doesn't happen overnight.
Will any of the following come up in the course of play, or as memoranda to GMs?
1. Ownership of the Opera House (i.e., is it a public institution, a worker cooperative, a publicly-traded corporation, or private property?);
2. Organization of (i.e., wall-to-wall, by trade, not at all) and bargaining with (i.e., collectively or individually) Opera House employees;
3. Organization of and possible competition with established librettists and composers;
4. Management of the Opera House (i.e., by appointees of its owners and/or of the state, by elected delegates).
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Creative Director
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It is, in fact, PART of the plan to "build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society" by creating a new world-class production that will put Ravounel on the art-scene's center stage as its own thing rather than a subset of Cheliax for the first time.
That sort of thing doesn't happen overnight.
Will any of the following come up in the course of play, or as memoranda to GMs?
1. Ownership of the Opera House (i.e., is it a public institution, a worker cooperative, a publicly-traded corporation, or private property?);
2. Organization of (i.e., wall-to-wall, by trade, not at all) and bargaining with (i.e., collectively or individually) Opera House employees;
3. Organization of and possible competition with established librettists and composers;
4. Management of the Opera House (i.e., by appointees of its owners and/or of the state, by elected delegates).
Spoiling for spoiler reasons...
2: Yes.
3: Yes.
4: No (unless you count "preparing the Opera House to do a premiere of a new opera, then yes).
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I hope we get a subsystem for creating more or less successful art works. With impact on the fame of PCs.
It's not a full-on subsystem built from scratch, but as with most of these things in 2nd edition, a complex Exploration or Downtime activity that uses a variant of Victory Points or a similar system in the GM Core.
Does Golarion have publicly traded corporations?
Never been more excited for an AP!
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If you ended your Hell's Rebels game at the end of book 4, then 100% that is the all time perfect choice, guaranteed! My suggestion would be to aim at ending it at level 12—the first chapter of Curtain Call, where the PCs are 11th level, are mostly about setting the stage and rolling right in from the end of Book 4 of Hell's Rebels (with a "your party spent several years relaxing in retirement" interlude to give Ravounel time to recover) would be a pretty elegant match. I'll have to remember that when I create the Player's Guide for Curtain Call. Good point!Is this set in a particular area of Golarion, or meant to be flexible on location?It's mostly set in Ravounel, but has excursions elsewhere.Holy moly, this will be the PERFECT sequel to my current Hell's Rebels (shortened to 4 books, ending at level 11 or 12) campaign!!!
Not least because we literally have a bard whose background was that they worked in stage management at the Kintargo Opera, before a certain villain turned up and shut it down!
Council of Thieves ends with the PCs at more or less the correct level as well, if there is an appetite to present multiple alternative lead-ins. "They ended up in Kintargo as welcome political asylees" would be a reassurance for the Children of Westcrown after their fate was left ambiguous in Hell Comes to Westcrown.
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I'm really hoping this is what my player's and I hoped Extinction Curse was going to be. We are in book 6 of EC, and while fun, we started in hopes of it being a true Circus adventure, then we're disappointed partly into book 2 and on when the circus felt more like an afterthought.
Not to criticise as we are still having fun (book 5 was very entertaining as an AP book). That said, if this AP keeps the Opera front and center the whole way (with related adventuring of course) it may just be my groups dream AP.
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I'm really hoping this is what my player's and I hoped Extinction Curse was going to be. We are in book 6 of EC, and while fun, we started in hopes of it being a true Circus adventure, then we're disappointed partly into book 2 and on when the circus felt more like an afterthought.
Not to criticise as we are still having fun (book 5 was very entertaining as an AP book). That said, if this AP keeps the Opera front and center the whole way (with related adventuring of course) it may just be my groups dream AP.
The Opera plays a key role throughout, never fear! For GMs who want to know a bit more of what to expect before reading the synopsis for the three adventures in the first volume...
Book 2 includes the PCs helping to hire actors, composers, a crew, seek out special effects, handle scandals, and more all during the long process of the opera being written and then having the cast and crew start rehersals. This also has a significant section where the PCs seek out lots of sponsors to help foot the bill for the production.
Book 3 covers the last month of rehersals before the premiere (AKA "Hell Month") and the opera's premiere itself.
There's more than that going on in the Adventure Path, of course, but each one has at LEAST 1 character level's worth of theatrical shenanigans (and possibly more) going on—aka about a third of each adventure. Plus when the PCs aren't doing that opera stuff, the other stuff will still have plenty of opera or theater themes going on!
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Has it been stated where in Ravounel this is taking place? Is it Kintargo or another settlement in the nation?
I'm really hoping this is what my player's and I hoped Extinction Curse was going to be. We are in book 6 of EC, and while fun, we started in hopes of it being a true Circus adventure, then we're disappointed partly into book 2 and on when the circus felt more like an afterthought.
Not to criticise as we are still having fun (book 5 was very entertaining as an AP book). That said, if this AP keeps the Opera front and center the whole way (with related adventuring of course) it may just be my groups dream AP.
The Opera plays a key role throughout, never fear! For GMs who want to know a bit more of what to expect before reading the synopsis for the three adventures in the first volume...
** spoiler omitted **
I appreciate this on multiple levels. Firstly is that it's new and experimental. A bold choice, and I like it. Secondly is that it's explicitly a sequel to a previous AP. We've had continuations of a story with different casts (the Runelord Saga), but never a proper sequel in the APs. Thirdly is that this will tie into the War of Immortals somehow. The death of a God is very operatic, so an opera setting the stage for what is to follow is perfectly appropriate (see what I did there?) Fourthly and finally is that this is a breather before everything goes to Hell. Or perhaps Abaddon. The Outer Rifts? Ah, you know what I mean. Most APs are high stakes for their level, so one that mostly isn't* makes for a refreshing change.
*-- if things go the way I think: the PCs will get roped into watching Gorum's death, but before that they'll just be trying to put on a show.
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Has it been stated where in Ravounel this is taking place? Is it Kintargo or another settlement in the nation?
It's set...
Has it been stated where in Ravounel this is taking place? Is it Kintargo or another settlement in the nation?It's set...
** spoiler omitted **
WOO. Thanks James, gives me a lot of runway to work on the timeskip for my last game....
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Creative Director
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I'm also interested in running this as a sequel to Hell's Rebels, although I doubt anyone would need those particular PCs to pitch or audition their story, being local legends and all.
If you run it as a sequal to Hell's Rebels and played it in 1st edition, I think I would:
2) Have your players recreate their characters from Hell's Rebels as 12th level characters and start with chapter 2 of the adventure.
3) While the PCs are local legends, the director is not, so she'll still want to see what they can do and would still want them to "audition" for the role to make sure that they are actual heroes and weren't just riding on coattails. And, you know, to make sure that they've got that special something that would make them good choices to help produce an opera, since not every adventuring group would.
4) There are several minor built-in callbacks to Hell's Rebels in the adventure, as a result of if being set in the same place, so these should work extra well for your group. You'll know them when you see them, and should give them an extra bit of punch in play as makes sense.
5) Barzillai Thrune is the right choice for the PCs' nemesis. If you skip the first chapter of the first book (where the PCs are level 11) they won't get a recap fight against him, but that's fine since they in theory just had the REAL fight against him.
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Anyone have feelings about whether it would it be possible to use the first three books of Extinction Curse as a lead in? Or does that leave too many story threads to remove from EC?
I'd love to hear folks' feedback here. I'm not super familiar with Extinction Curse (I didn't write for it or develop it, and the pandemic caused the game I was playing in it as a character to crash and burn, but at least I managed to get Wrin Sivinxi recycled as an NPC!).
If as folks report the circus themes shift to a less load-bearing role in the 2nd half of the Adventure Path, then that sounds like it'd be a pretty strong fit; dunno if the narrative plot has an obvious break point at the halfway marker, but if you focus more on the circus side of things, might be interesting to adjust the "We want to make an opera of your early adventures" into "We want to make an opera about your legendary circus performances!" and even potentially swap out Curtain Call's director for someone from Extinction Curse who's seeking a venue change for the circus to something new.
Interesting idea, for sure!
My Abomination Vaults group will be 11th level by the time this AP comes out. Hopefully they defeat Belcorra but the AP mentions a "big bad" they have defeated coming back.
I assume this will be a big bad made specifically for this AP so my question is how does that fit with an existing group or should the players just roll new PCs and take on this AP's "backstory"?
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My Abomination Vaults group will be 11th level by the time this AP comes out. Hopefully they defeat Belcorra but the AP mentions a "big bad" they have defeated coming back.
I assume this will be a big bad made specifically for this AP so my question is how does that fit with an existing group or should the players just roll new PCs and take on this AP's "backstory"?
This adventure is specifically made to be a sequel to any 1 to 10/11 APs, using the same PCs. It ask a little bit more work of the GM to fill in the holes based on what the previous AP was, so I fully expect that "returning big bad" will be a [INSERT A VILLAIN FROM PREVIOUS AP HERE, BUT AS A HIGHER LEVEL X] thing. There's multiple ways in PF2 that could help even a destroyed ghost to "come back" in some form... it wouldn't be the first time actually!
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Creative Director
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My Abomination Vaults group will be 11th level by the time this AP comes out. Hopefully they defeat Belcorra but the AP mentions a "big bad" they have defeated coming back.
I assume this will be a big bad made specifically for this AP so my question is how does that fit with an existing group or should the players just roll new PCs and take on this AP's "backstory"?
That'll all be revealed soon enough in the first volume, never fear!
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Now we are into July I’m afraid I must ask, may we expect the Players Guide about mid-July?
Ignoring the last two APs that had some special circumstances, usually it's 2 weeks before the street date of the first book. So yeah, mid July should be a reasonable expectation.
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Looks like my checking paid off Players Guide link
Excellent find! And it includes a "where are they now" list for many important NPC's of Hell's Rebels as well. :)
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Hope folks enjoy this player's guide! As mentioned in the feedback from "Seven Dooms for Sandpoint" we're not doing a big choose-your-own-adventure style thing to help you create your higher level PCs here, but went for a different way to help guide the creation of that backstory... especially since this one, more than any high-level Adventure Path we've published, really REALLY wants you to play a low level one first rather than to make new PCs fresh for it.* (Even at the risk of making this one harder to "qualify" for, I guess...)
* You CAN of course make a new group of PCs for this one, never fear!
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Glad to see Kintargo is on a definitive rise, despite the beliefs of *some* folks out there.
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Hope folks enjoy this player's guide! As mentioned in the feedback from "Seven Dooms for Sandpoint" we're not doing a big choose-your-own-adventure style thing to help you create your higher level PCs here, but went for a different way to help guide the creation of that backstory... especially since this one, more than any high-level Adventure Path we've published, really REALLY wants you to play a low level one first rather than to make new PCs fresh for it.* (Even at the risk of making this one harder to "qualify" for, I guess...)
* You CAN of course make a new group of PCs for this one, never fear!
Do you think using a party from a higher finishing Ap would work with this with a bit of handwaving/reasoning? (either been a while so they have lost there edge a bit so to speak or in the cases of an ap where they got powers from an outside source said powers have faded over time.)
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Do you think using a party from a higher finishing Ap would work with this with a bit of handwaving/reasoning? (either been a while so they have lost there edge a bit so to speak or in the cases of an ap where they got powers from an outside source said powers have faded over time.)Hope folks enjoy this player's guide! As mentioned in the feedback from "Seven Dooms for Sandpoint" we're not doing a big choose-your-own-adventure style thing to help you create your higher level PCs here, but went for a different way to help guide the creation of that backstory... especially since this one, more than any high-level Adventure Path we've published, really REALLY wants you to play a low level one first rather than to make new PCs fresh for it.* (Even at the risk of making this one harder to "qualify" for, I guess...)
* You CAN of course make a new group of PCs for this one, never fear!
As well as any other adventure that is for lower level characters than your group is at. The plot of Curtain Call only expects your player characters to have been on an adventure significant enough to become famous. If that adventure resulted in you being higher than 11th level, your GM will need to adjust things as needed or just let you steamroll the adventure content until your XP course corrects naturally.
Thank you for this. By bait and switch, I think of Extinction Curse where you think it's a circus related AP and it really isn't.Ah; gotcha! That makes sense, and thank you for the example.
Curtain Call does not do a bait and switch. There's more story going on in this adventure path than "The PCs are hired to help produce an opera", but that is very much the main through line. A bit more in the spoiler for folks who don't want to know the pacing of how that goes out as far as the opera element is concerned:
** spoiler omitted **
I’m glad an example was provided. I was confused what this person meant too, but now that it’s more clear, I admit I’ve been upset at similar stuff in the past. For example, Book 3 of Second Darkness has sudden tone shift a long with many other classic 6 part APs.
I think this will all be resolved by moving to the 3 book AP. Creating a six-part thematically linked adventure that feels fresh each book could not have been an easy task. I do think, in some cases fear of things getting repetitive kept things from feeling as coherent as I would have liked.
For example, what was pitched to be the dragon AP , Age of Ashes, didn’t have enough dragons, in my opinion. I can get the fear of not wanting to just be repetitive (or cliche) and ending all 6 Age of Ashes book with a dragon boss fight, but I think the fact that APs take 2-3 years to finish was overlooked. 6 big dragon boss fights over that long a period would have made things feel tightly themed, not repetitive.
In any case, I think those days are behind us with 3 parters anyway. Everything seems to give you what’s on the tin much easier, and stay in theme beginning to end.
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Anyone with their copy mind sharing what new beasties are in the toolbox of this adventure?
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Anyone with their copy mind sharing what new beasties are in the toolbox of this adventure?
Hellshadow, a level 13 incorporeal/undead/fiend
Ockomlire, a level 13 aberration, walking mushroom with lots of eyes and sharp teeth
Rezzelki, a level 10 wolf-like beast with a crystalline tail and anteater-like snout
Anguish Siktempora, level 13
Also, book 3 looks like it has the PCs going to Duskfathom and facing Norgorber himself. Wild!