So, a little while back, we got confirmation that Arazni is the deity that gets to join the Core 20. Okay, cool... and I was just recently realizing some of the implications of this.
- First, if she's one of the Core 20, that almost certainly means that she's stabilized her own personal philosophy, clarified her position on certain things, and come up with a relationship to her various clerics and followers that isn't "You're all wrong and heretical and I hate you all equally, but yes you can still have your cleric spells."
- Second, by the picture on the Lost Omens book that features her, she's likely continuing to move in what you or I would consider a morally positive direction.
- It is highly likely that she allows Holy sanctification. In addition to her probably continued walk towards the light, there's the fact that I just can't imagine her disliking the idea of having Champions that were particularly good at harming Tar-Baphon. Allowing unholy sanctification...?
- So here's the thing. prior to this going down, she's still worshiped as one of the more traditionalist deities in Geb. To my eyes, that goes one of two ways. Either she embraces the duality in some fashion, or she doesn't. If she does...? That could be interesting. I'd be interested to see where she'd go from there. If she doesn't, then her church in Geb is going to have some ugly spasms that are likely to cause real damage to the overall structure of that country... especially since, for her, the Necromancer Ghost Geb himself most certainly qualifies as someone who has hurt her. We don't really know what her edicts and anathema are going to look like coming out of this one, but I'd be real surprised if they had her looking kindly on the guy.
So mostly that's it. I think this is going to cause real damage to Tar-Baphon, and I am here for that. I'm pretty sure it's going to throw some real churn into Geb, too, though... and I honestly don't know where the chips are going to fall on that one.
I wouldn't be surprised if she would want to allow holy sanctification for the purpose of destroying Tar-Baphon's armies, but it's a question of if she can. She is still an undead god, presumably holy damage would be inherently anathema to her regardless of her own moral proclivities.
|
Sincerely, I have no idea what you're talking about concerning Arazni becoming a core deity or where you got that idea, they're not mentioned in the PC1 even a single time and are only mentioned once in the introduction to the Impossible Lands section of the GMC.
The new Core rules just got put out and they don't give two hoots about her. Now, if you're talking about her taking on more roles in the setting at large after the events of some unreleased AP that's another thing altogether but I do not see them removing a listed Core deity from the second printing of the PC1 and GMC so they can slot her in but here's the thing, they've never done that type of thing with reprints in the past and I'm suspect that errata to functionally kill a deity and literally remove it from publication to replace it with another one would ever occur.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sincerely, I have no idea what you're talking about with regard to Arazni becoming a core deity or where you got that idea, they're not mentioned in the PC1 even a single time and are only mentioned one in the introduction to the Impossible Lands section of the GMC.
It's a plot development that's been teased as part of War of Immortals. She'll be replacing whichever core deity dies.
|
|
... where was it "teased?" I'm not finding any information about her taking any larger role whatsoever other than errant rumorings and shop-talking theories by community members, it's not in any blog post, it's not mentioned by any devs and in large part, the only sources I could come up with regarding this seem to be the same three people repeatedly just asserting this is the case so I'm quite confused.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So the information you're missing is that this was on twitch stream about Tian Xia. But at the end of it, there was hints about War of the Immortals and the cover art.
See the attached Youtube link .
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sincerely, I have no idea what you're talking about concerning Arazni becoming a core deity or where you got that idea, they're not mentioned in the PC1 even a single time and are only mentioned once in the introduction to the Impossible Lands section of the GMC.
That's the official Paizo Blog Special Recap of a livestream that they did about LO: Tian Xia World Guide, LO: Tian Xia Character Guide, and LO: Divine Mysteries. Scroll down to the part where it talks about Divine Mysteries, then right after the first picture in that section. It was revealed in the QA, and then confirmed in this blog.
I wouldn't be surprised if she would want to allow holy sanctification for the purpose of destroying Tar-Baphon's armies, but it's a question of if she can. She is still an undead god, presumably holy damage would be inherently anathema to her regardless of her own moral proclivities.
It's possible, I suppose, but I don't actually know if that matters. "Holy or Unholy" seems to be mostly a matter of where you fall on the war between Heaven and Hell, and (from what I've seen) is a personal choice by the deity in question and their followers. I suppose that LO: Divine Mysteries would be the place to go to find out things like that, though.
There's also the question of whether "is an undead" inherently makes you opposed to Holy... and I don't think it necessarily does? Like, PCs with the Skeleton ancestry were capable of being Paladins before, and I haven't seen anything indicating that that option is no longer available.
Where's the picture?
It's the one at that same link, just before the confirm.
Now, if you're talking about her taking on more roles in the setting at large after the events of some unreleased AP that's another thing altogether
It's been confirmed that the next major story arc is War of Immortals (the book that the Animist and Exemplar playtests were for), and it's going to involve one of the Core 20 dying and being replaced (by Arazni).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, I see, thanks for pointing it out, I guess my search fu simply failed me.
It's also interesting to hear that they sort of buried the lede with a stealth announcement that Gods and Magic is getting mothballed by Divine Mysteries being the new Remastered home for all of that material, I'll take that as a good sign that the rest of the OGL hardcovers are going to be repackaged/Remastered.
So... anyone have any actual thoughts on the geopolitical implications of the fact that the majority of Arazni's current worshipers are in the form of a church of conservative nobility of Geb, while she's going to be one of the Big 20 and also would have at least a few reasons to disapprove of the current leadership there? I mean, aside from the fact that she apparently despises the entirety of her old church.
Any thoughts on what might happen if and when the human cattle of Geb start praying to the Goddess of the Abused for her aid against their oppressors?
Side note: The picture is less conclusive than I had thought at first. The wiki picture of Arazni actually has her in pretty similar garb, with the only difference being that her skin color in the new one is a more natural human tone. given that she was a lich rather than a vampire, the flush in her cheeks isn't anyone else's blood.
It suggests that she might have recovered the bloodstones, though... which is another mark for "the Whispering Tyrant probably had a bad day or two."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Presumably she'll stop hiding from being the patron of the Crimson Reclaimers after this.
Is she really still worshipped much in Geb? I don't have Tyrant's Grasp, but from what I can tell on the wiki it seems like her cult in Geb was always kind of small and focused on her as head of state rather than deity. It was also "very rare" for her to grant them magic since they were a part of the state she hated. If that's the case, then presumably her cult disbanded after she escaped, so her rise wouldn't affect much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, I see, thanks for pointing it out, I guess my search fu simply failed me.
It's also interesting to hear that they sort of buried the lede with a stealth announcement that Gods and Magic is getting mothballed by Divine Mysteries being the new Remastered home for all of that material, I'll take that as a good sign that the rest of the OGL hardcovers are going to be repackaged/Remastered.
Nope. It seems like given the timing and foreshadowing Divine Mysteries was always going to be a thing. The scope might have changed but it still had to have predated the OGL fiasco
Is she really still worshipped much in Geb? I don't have Tyrant's Grasp, but from what I can tell on the wiki it seems like her cult in Geb was always kind of small and focused on her as head of state rather than deity. It was also "very rare" for her to grant them magic since they were a part of the state she hated. If that's the case, then presumably her cult disbanded after she escaped, so her rise wouldn't affect much.
I found the following in the Blood Lords Player's Guide:
Clerics are among the best class choices for this campaign, but they’re also among the worst. Urgathoa is the most widely worshipped deity in Geb, and a cleric of Urgathoa would work well. Abadar, Irori, Nethys, and Zon-Kuthon also have many worshippers throughout Geb. Due to Arazni’s unique place as unwilling ruler of Geb for so many years, clerics of Arazni (Pathfinder Lost Omens Gods & Magic 54) are also fairly common, although the Blood Lords Adventure Path doesn’t deal much with Arazni’s past or with her current status. Most other neutral or evil deities make good choices for clerics, with the significant exception of Pharasma.
So at least based on that, there's still a sizable number of casting-capable Arazni clerics in service to Geb as of Blood Lords, and that one came out well after Tyrant's grasp. How reliable you see that source as...?
So, a little while back, we got confirmation that Arazni is the deity that gets to join the Core 20.
Was it confirmed? Can you provide me the link? I have never even heard it.
By the way, if she still remains evil, perhaps she would be a great friend and ally of Urgathoa, since both are evil undead? Undead are not only inherently evil, but also inherently harmful to the very fabric of the multiverse, as far as I remember.
So, a little while back, we got confirmation that Arazni is the deity that gets to join the Core 20.Was it confirmed? Can you provide me the link? I have never even heard it.
Sincerely, I have no idea what you're talking about concerning Arazni becoming a core deity or where you got that idea, they're not mentioned in the PC1 even a single time and are only mentioned once in the introduction to the Impossible Lands section of the GMC.here you go.
By the way, if she still remains evil, perhaps she would be a great friend and ally of Urgathoa, since both are evil undead? Undead are not only inherently evil, but also inherently harmful to the very fabric of the multiverse, as far as I remember.
No such thing as "evil" in this brave new world. Not as part of the rules. The remaster is changing a lot of things. As far as getting along with Urgathoa...? I'm guessing a sort of chilly neutrality at best, with Arazni quietly despising Urgathoa but not caring enough to really do anything about it. That's at best. The fact that Urgathoa is in active and joyful collaboration with Geb, and actually supporting Tar-Baphon... the two entities in all of existence that Arazni has most reason to personally despise and never forgive? Chilly Neutrality isn't even looking all that likely. Who knows? Perhaps Urgathoa could even raise Aroden from the dead, become his crazy stalker girlfriend, and complete the trifecta.
Is she really still worshipped much in Geb? I don't have Tyrant's Grasp, but from what I can tell on the wiki it seems like her cult in Geb was always kind of small and focused on her as head of state rather than deity. It was also "very rare" for her to grant them magic since they were a part of the state she hated. If that's the case, then presumably her cult disbanded after she escaped, so her rise wouldn't affect much.I found the following in the Blood Lords Player's Guide:
Clerics are among the best class choices for this campaign, but they’re also among the worst. Urgathoa is the most widely worshipped deity in Geb, and a cleric of Urgathoa would work well. Abadar, Irori, Nethys, and Zon-Kuthon also have many worshippers throughout Geb. Due to Arazni’s unique place as unwilling ruler of Geb for so many years, clerics of Arazni (Pathfinder Lost Omens Gods & Magic 54) are also fairly common, although the Blood Lords Adventure Path doesn’t deal much with Arazni’s past or with her current status. Most other neutral or evil deities make good choices for clerics, with the significant exception of Pharasma.So at least based on that, there's still a sizable number of casting-capable Arazni clerics in service to Geb as of Blood Lords, and that one came out well after Tyrant's grasp. How reliable you see that source as...?
The player's guides are written with reliable narrator so far as I know, so I was wrong and she does have a decent cult there. I wonder if they are going to become a rebel faction of undead wanting freedom?
Even if she remains evil, I can't imagine her possibly getting along well with Urgathoa. She's the patron of both the Whispering Tyrant and Geb, neither of whom she likes very much. She's also the goddess of intentional undead while Arazni is the goddess of unwilling undead, so that's another point of friction.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Gotta say, I'd have preferred Nocticula.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
- It is highly likely that she allows Holy sanctification. In addition to her probably continued walk towards the light, there's the fact that I just can't imagine her disliking the idea of having Champions that were particularly good at harming Tar-Baphon. Allowing unholy sanctification...?
It was confirmed back in the original Tian Xia Showcase where Divine Mysteries was announced and she got confirmed to be the new core deity that Arazni will allow both Holy & Unholy.
Also, it's also good to remember that even with her being still worshiped by some sects in Geb, the king actively wishes to stamp all that out and wants everyone to forget that she ever existed, whilst Arazni hates people who follow her as the queen of Geb even more than most her followers. So whilst there'd be some turbulence, it's not all that much more than her initial leaving already caused.
Also, it's also good to remember that even with her being still worshiped by some sects in Geb, the king actively wishes to stamp all that out and wants everyone to forget that she ever existed, whilst Arazni hates people who follow her as the queen of Geb even more than most her followers. So whilst there'd be some turbulence, it's not all that much more than her initial leaving already caused.
I'm not saying it's implausible, but do you have a hard confirm that Geb wants to stamp out her cult in his eponymous country? Any info on what he might or might not be doing in service to that? Who knows? Perhaps he's still pining for her and hopes to some day woo her back. Incredibly toxic &%*#$@s can catch unwise irrational feelings and harbor associated deeply implausible fantasies too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, it's also good to remember that even with her being still worshiped by some sects in Geb, the king actively wishes to stamp all that out and wants everyone to forget that she ever existed, whilst Arazni hates people who follow her as the queen of Geb even more than most her followers. So whilst there'd be some turbulence, it's not all that much more than her initial leaving already caused.I'm not saying it's implausible, but do you have a hard confirm that Geb wants to stamp out her cult in his eponymous country? Any info on what he might or might not be doing in service to that? Who knows? Perhaps he's still pining for her and hopes to some day woo her back. Incredibly toxic &%*#$@s can catch unwise irrational feelings and harbor associated deeply implausible fantasies too.
Here's a quote from Impossible Lands. Looks like I've slightly misremembered and it was the whole government as a whole which wants her forgotten.
Most recently, even the most conservative Blood Lords agreed that in the wake of Arazni’s abdication of her duties, it was imperative to erase any hint of culture she’d established so that they can plaster over her influence entirely. Few know better than the dead that, with enough time, all things—even gods—can be erased.
Elsewhere in the book there's also a whole lot of references of all the Arazni loyalists getting killed / fleeing (such as the ones who ran Mechitar and the ones in the Gebbite embassy in Alkenstar)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Elsewhere in the book there's also a whole lot of references of all the Arazni loyalists getting killed / fleeing (such as the ones who ran Mechitar and the ones in the Gebbite embassy in Alkenstar)
Ahhh. Okay. So that was quite recent. Thanks for the heads-up!
...and, conveniently, it means that all of her still-surviving Old Guard have good, solid, personal reasons for despising and never forgiving the people that their goddess would like them to despise and never forgive.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gotta say, I'd have preferred Nocticula.
Sarenrae covers redemption, Shelyn covers art, Desna is mercurial and tied to the night sky - Nocticula's themes are all pretty coveted by the Core 20 already.
Any thoughts on what might happen if and when the human cattle of Geb start praying to the Goddess of the Abused for her aid against their oppressors?
I feel like that might run into some inherent awkwardness given her own historic position there.
Gotta say, I'd have preferred Nocticula.Sarenrae covers redemption, Shelyn covers art, Desna is mercurial and tied to the night sky - Nocticula's themes are all pretty coveted by the Core 20 already.
But not in that package! :p
To be fair, not sure if I'd ever have associated Desna with the night sky (or the "glories of midnight", which is Nocticula's shtick). She always has been more of a "adventuring and following your dreams" deity for me.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The first sentence of Desna's blurb on AON is "the night didn’t know beauty until Desna came into existence" so I'd say she has a pretty strong association with the night sky. It does have a strong connection to her primary focus on travel (the guiding light of the north star and all that).
The first sentence of Desna's blurb on AON is "the night didn’t know beauty until Desna came into existence" so I'd say she has a pretty strong association with the night sky. It does have a strong connection to her primary focus on travel (the guiding light of the north star and all that).
I guess I always focused more on her portfolio, which is "dreams, luck, stars, and travelers", with her domains being "Chaos, Good, Liberation, Luck, Travel", so I never associated her that much with darkness and the night (although stars shine at night, I know).
Unless multiple vacancies open in the pantheon, Nocticula likely is staying a minor goddess, anyway. I just would have preferred her over Arazni, who came a bit out of left field to me as a new major goddess.
|
- It is highly likely that she allows Holy sanctification. In addition to her probably continued walk towards the light, there's the fact that I just can't imagine her disliking the idea of having Champions that were particularly good at harming Tar-Baphon. Allowing unholy sanctification...?
It was confirmed back in the original Tian Xia Showcase where Divine Mysteries was announced and she got confirmed to be the new core deity that Arazni will allow both Holy & Unholy.
Also, it's also good to remember that even with her being still worshiped by some sects in Geb, the king actively wishes to stamp all that out and wants everyone to forget that she ever existed, whilst Arazni hates people who follow her as the queen of Geb even more than most her followers. So whilst there'd be some turbulence, it's not all that much more than her initial leaving already caused.
Given the Quick population in Geb and the fact that there are undead turned against their will, I would imagine THEY are the sects in Geb still worshiping her.
|
|
That attitude seems extreme. Maybe I'm headcannoning here, but I have to imagine while she would have a harsh attitude toward them, she would favor followers in a situation similar to her own. Sure her attitude might be "I have given you power, now stand or I will kick you back where you were" but I imagine her hatred is for those who worship her as the UNDEAD QUEEN OF GEB, BRIDE OF GEB, who extoll THOSE aspects.
Arazni being a new deity shakes things up from a class option standpoint in a good way, but I'm not sure how I feel about this from a story standpoint, since this now de-values Tar-Baphon as a notable persistent villain who has both history and probably a bone to pick with both Geb (for reviving one of his arch-enemies) and Arazni (for sending adventurers after him soon after he broke free from his sealed prison), and he was a notable villain that was essentially given the opportunity to return again later with the soul cage being well protected to the point only a God could truly destroy him. With the one person who would absolutely want to kill him now being a God, Tar-Baphon is basically a non-existent villain.
Also, how is she ascending to Godhood? Is this like some round-robin tournament invitational to the Starstone soon after the deity dies? Do the remaining Core 20 come together and just pick/vote a mortal in? Or is some other special event happening that she acquires the powers of a deity (such as stealing Geb's power, or the power of the dying deity, for her own)?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Weren't the events of Tyrans Grasp what led to her ascension to divinity and pre-War of Immortal status in pf2e?
As for the core 20 stuff, if I recall that isn't a formal classification in-universe, it is just a matter of some of the most influential or significant dieties in the inner sea region. So all that would need to happen is one of the previous core 20 dying/going away/fading( which we know at least one of thrm is dying) and for Araznis current position or position as of War of Immortals to be relevant enough to slot in nicely.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
She was already a goddess before she died. She had the position Iomedae would later take up. She was champion of Aroden before Iomedae. That's one of the reasons Iomedae is known as the inheritor.Demigoddess, technically.
We have her 1e stats, however. She wasn't a goddess there, just a murderously powerful lich that rivaled Tar-Baphon. Something was lost when she was killed and reanimated. Which might have been regained only recently, or she might have found a novel way to ascend to divinity.
She was a goddess in 1e. She's statted as a murderously powerful lich in the Mythic Realms book and as a deity in Inner Sea Gods.
I notice another little bit.
Arazni is confirmed to allow Holy and Unholy sanctification. Further, the Crimson Reclaimers apparently have a decent number of undead in their ranks. It is highly likely that however she turns out, she's going to be fairly undead-friendly as a deity.
At the same time, the framing story on LO: Divine Mysteries plus the cover picture suggests that she's at least on reasonably good terms with Pharasma. Perhaps they're working together on a project of significant shared interest?
I also notice that the Whispering Tyrant would pretty clearly qualify as an Immortal.
I suspect he will not enjoy the results of this upcoming War.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I notice another little bit.
Arazni is confirmed to allow Holy and Unholy sanctification. Further, the Crimson Reclaimers apparently have a decent number of undead in their ranks. It is highly likely that however she turns out, she's going to be fairly undead-friendly as a deity.
At the same time, the framing story on LO: Divine Mysteries plus the cover picture suggests that she's at least on reasonably good terms with Pharasma. Perhaps they're working together on a project of significant shared interest?
I also notice that the Whispering Tyrant would pretty clearly qualify as an Immortal.
I suspect he will not enjoy the results of this upcoming War.
Did we get the sanctification thing confirmed for sure?
I admit it's vaguely hilarious that Tar Baphon may slumber for millennia, get out, immediately get blown up by some PCs (Tyrant's Grasp) and then get punked by two gods (and maybe some PCs but who cares about them)
"So uh. Remind me. Why were we so concerned about this guy again?"
To be fair those PCs didn't so much blow him up as they tricked him into blowing himself up by sacrificing their souls, just to slow him down an inch after he destroyed the entire nation dedicated to stopping him. Like, sure he got stopped from popping down to the corner store for a smoothie, but it still very much cost a lot just to get that far.
Also like, it's already been brought up but one of those gods was already very much a (demi-)god when he killed her. He isn't a god yet but even without that he has proven that killing someone who is isn't even a very big deal to him.
TBH, Tar Baphon getting jobbed by some gods might open up the setting more for some villains that are actually interesting or feel like compelling threats, I wouldn't hate it. Tar Baphon has always felt kind of boring and never like he really earned his status (from a writing stance).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Did we get the sanctification thing confirmed for sure?
I'm pretty sure we did, but that's me remembering someone else saying it with a fair degree of credibility. If you want the actual reference, then someone other than me is going to have to remember where that was.
TBH, Tar Baphon getting jobbed by some gods might open up the setting more for some villains that are actually interesting or feel like compelling threats, I wouldn't hate it. Tar Baphon has always felt kind of boring and never like he really earned his status (from a writing stance).
Tar-Baphon wasn't ever particularly subtle as a character, but he provided a high-quality backdrop for some nice, simple, straightforward "the enemy is a bunch of morally unambiguous undead, go save people/rescue artifacts/etc" adventures.
That said, those adventures have been published, and we don't really need more of them. If he wound up dying off and letting us have some nice "everything is corrupt and the nobles are all monsters in disguise" stories in Ustalav instead, that would be cool. Even better if he was severely and brutally diminished - not quite destroyed (due to some previously created contingency) but reduced enough that he could no longer hold territory in the face of his manifold foes and is forced to hide. Then we could have those same stories in Ustalav plus some Whispering Way cultists hiding in basements, scheming to bring him back to power. More excuses for dark cults to hide in basements and scheme is always good.
Oh, hey! Looks like the place I remembered it from was in this thread.
It was confirmed back in the original Tian Xia Showcase where Divine Mysteries was announced and she got confirmed to be the new core deity that Arazni will allow both Holy & Unholy.
So there you go.
It'd be like if Ramses the Great returned, got blown up by the modern Egyptian military, and now the modern world is supposed to take his dreams of world conquest at face value. While he launches suicide charges at tanks with horse-drawn chariots and bronze spears. After he just sat on the sidelines for four years (which is how long Tar Baphon has been sitting around on the Isle of Terror not doing much)
To be fair, it'd be more close to "Ramses the Great returns, immediately destroys all of Egypt (what in this alternate timeline has been preparing for his return for thousands of years) and then gets blown up by the American military (in a way which is specifically said to not really be possible to repeat)". Sure, he's got problems as a villain, but him taking out all of Lastwall isn't non-noteworthy.
|
In PF1 he was kinda the ultimate nasty. He set up a trap in the City of Golden Death module for Aroden (who wisely didn't go there). He got to kill Arazni because Aroden didn't want to face him. And eventually Aroden dies and who's the most likely suspect?
Then LO:Legends comes along and we have Jatembe, Baba Yaga and Sorshen all back and going kinda "shrug" about him. (That book has a bit of Elminster syndrome.)