Pathfinder Adventure Path #182: Graveclaw (Blood Lords 2 of 6)

Announced for August!
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This AP sounds better and better!

oooooof was really excited for this ap but a whole book being really hag-centric is majorly off-putting

oooooof was really excited for this ap but a whole book being really hag-centric is majorly off-putting

I’m not sure I understand the complaint. What’s the issue?

silversarcasm wrote:

oooooof was really excited for this ap but a whole book being really hag-centric is majorly off-putting

I’m not sure I understand the complaint. What’s the issue?

They're an antisemitic caricature complete with blood libel.

I remove all hags and hag-related playable options at my table because they make me so uncomfortable. This book sounds like its going to be very hard to separate from them.

Ummm...I've heard of the term being used as misogynistic, but I can't find it as being used for antisemitism. It originated as a bias against wise women and midwives in the middle ages and Renaissance. It is pretty much synonymous with "witch."

Ummm...I've heard of the term being used as misogynistic, but I can't find it as being used for antisemitism. It originated as a bias against wise women and midwives in the middle ages and Renaissance. It is pretty much synonymous with "witch."

Nothing to do with the name, but the way they are depicted in the art and lore of pathfinder

Feros wrote:

Ummm...I've heard of the term being used as misogynistic, but I can't find it as being used for antisemitism. It originated as a bias against wise women and midwives in the middle ages and Renaissance. It is pretty much synonymous with "witch."

Nothing to do with the name, but the way they are depicted in the art and lore of pathfinder

Could you walk me through this one? I haven’t heard this concern before, while the only snarl with Changelings I know of is some autism-related stuff.

silversarcasm wrote:

Feros wrote:

Ummm...I've heard of the term being used as misogynistic, but I can't find it as being used for antisemitism. It originated as a bias against wise women and midwives in the middle ages and Renaissance. It is pretty much synonymous with "witch."

Nothing to do with the name, but the way they are depicted in the art and lore of pathfinder

Could you walk me through this one? I haven’t heard this concern before, while the only snarl with Changelings I know of is some autism-related stuff.

They are hook nosed women (like im sorry some of the art could be straight out of 1930s propaganda posters) who are depicted as living on the edge of civilisations but never really part of them ("rootless cosmopolitans"). They steal children from those communities and eat them. I would recommend you research blood libel to see why this is so egregious.

From my interactions with people about this before, blood libel seems largely unknown to american gentiles which is why I think people miss this, but as a european it's so blatant and shocking.

keftiu wrote:

silversarcasm wrote:

Feros wrote:

Ummm...I've heard of the term being used as misogynistic, but I can't find it as being used for antisemitism. It originated as a bias against wise women and midwives in the middle ages and Renaissance. It is pretty much synonymous with "witch."

Nothing to do with the name, but the way they are depicted in the art and lore of pathfinder

Could you walk me through this one? I haven’t heard this concern before, while the only snarl with Changelings I know of is some autism-related stuff.

They are hook nosed women (like im sorry some of the art could be straight out of 1930s propaganda posters) who are depicted as living on the edge of civilisations but never really part of them ("rootless cosmopolitans"). They steal children from those communities and eat them. I would recommend you research blood libel to see why this is so egregious.

From my interactions with people about this before, blood libel seems largely unknown to american gentiles which is why I think people miss this, but as a european it's so blatant and shocking.

I’m of Jewish heritage myself and familiar with blood libel, which is why I asked. I appreciate your explanation, but I’m afraid I don’t see it myself.

Hope the next volume is something more your speed!

silversarcasm wrote:

keftiu wrote:

silversarcasm wrote:

Feros wrote:

Ummm...I've heard of the term being used as misogynistic, but I can't find it as being used for antisemitism. It originated as a bias against wise women and midwives in the middle ages and Renaissance. It is pretty much synonymous with "witch."

Nothing to do with the name, but the way they are depicted in the art and lore of pathfinder

Could you walk me through this one? I haven’t heard this concern before, while the only snarl with Changelings I know of is some autism-related stuff.

They are hook nosed women (like im sorry some of the art could be straight out of 1930s propaganda posters) who are depicted as living on the edge of civilisations but never really part of them ("rootless cosmopolitans"). They steal children from those communities and eat them. I would recommend you research blood libel to see why this is so egregious.

From my interactions with people about this before, blood libel seems largely unknown to american gentiles which is why I think people miss this, but as a european it's so blatant and shocking.

I’m of Jewish heritage myself and familiar with blood libel, which is why I asked. I appreciate your explanation, but I’m afraid I don’t see it myself.

Hope the next volume is something more your speed!

That's fair and I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to feel about this, I just cannot bear to have this at my table so this book is looking like a miss for me.

I know one of the books is titled field of maidens which I'm definitely excited about since we might get more Holomog content

Yes!! I'm very keen to see more of Holomog, and hopefully more Southern Garund soon after!

Still crossing my fingers that we get a 2e Inquisitor soon enough for me to play one in this path - Arazni feels tailor-made for this.

For myself, I am looking forwards for creepy covens in the land of the dead.

Wow! Super excited for hags! I've always thought they should be more prominent!

2 out of 3 error amuses me :D

2 out of 3 error amuses me :D

It's an error?

Thank god!

Geb is definitely worthy of the full AP treatment, thank you, Paizo!

CorvusMask wrote:

2 out of 3 error amuses me :D

It's an error?

Thank god!

Geb is definitely worthy of the full AP treatment, thank you, Paizo!

Part 1 is "1 out of 6", upper part lists this as AP "Blood Lords (#181-186)" and we already know names of all books from conventions ;D So yes its an error

Though we haven't seen it yet, if it is similar in design to 90% of published adventures out there, one will be able to switch out the Hag Coven for a coterie of Drow -- or a circle of Erinyes or Lamia or something. ....Likely this campaign plot is an attack on Geb from an antagonistic Demon Lord or Apocalypse Horseman, so an Outsider coven or the like will likely make more sense than Drow -- but in any case, swapping out a Green Hag and Annis Hag for two cultists of Zura or a Lamia Matriarch and a Dark Naga will likely work absolutely perfectly.

.

(I understand your hatred of Hags. For me, I Absolutely HATE when movies or TV shows make a Witch from Salem, or imply or state that the Witch character lived in Salem centuries ago or learned magical secrets or necromancy there. I mean, I HATE it. I wish I could be Guillermo del Toro or Stephen King for ONE DAY -- to make a public announcement the world everywhere would hear, just to argue that no fictional Witch EVER should be tied to Salem. That in fact it would be better for a Fictional Witch to be asked or confronted in the text and reply, "Salem, no, no Witches have Ever lived in Salem." in a rather incredulous tone.)

I expect a conspiracy within Geb, rather than an external threat. We’ll see how true that prediction holds in a few months!

We believe we have worked to keep antisemitic and misogynistic tropes out of this AP. Professional feedback is also welcome and expected after release. I'll post any content warnings here if I see them.

This adventure's description lacks the "less than good hearted" epithet that the other parts have.

Should we expect a change of heart ?

Of course, in Geb, it could be literal.

One thing I have learned after playing through Jason Tondro's Horizons of the Vast & Frozen Flame contributions (in the same month!) is that his AP's are a bit overtuned difficulty wise. Beware.

keftiu wrote:

silversarcasm wrote:

oooooof was really excited for this ap but a whole book being really hag-centric is majorly off-putting

I’m not sure I understand the complaint. What’s the issue?

They're an antisemitic caricature complete with blood libel.

I remove all hags and hag-related playable options at my table because they make me so uncomfortable. This book sounds like its going to be very hard to separate from them.

Hags of PF and D&D are of Celtic origin being evil and corrupted Fey. If you don’t believe me you should check the bestiary. Even the whole Changeling thing comes from the Celtic Myths. Enjoy your game and play the way you want but I thought you might want to know the origin of the creature.

Sometimes I feel like people go so far to try to protect a certain culture they actually end up insulting it... Old ugly witches that steal children are definitely not an anti-semetic trope. I bet that trope has existed before our modern religious texts were ever even written.

We have the same kind of hags in slavic folklore

Just because they have Celtic or whatever region's folklore roots or mentions for this incarnation doesn't remove the fact of anti-sematic caricature it's had for awhile, green skin? nook hose?

And that's not even getting into the misogyny of the creature as well.

You can point at whatever myth you want, it doesn't take away from the cariacture, just like you can't claim that drow were never racist because they're inspired in part by Norse myths.

Sometimes I feel like people go so far to try to protect a certain culture they actually end up insulting it... Old ugly witches that steal children are definitely not an anti-semetic trope. I bet that trope has existed before our modern religious texts were ever even written.

Child-stealing (and sacrifice) are the keystones of the old antisemitic blood libel myth. It’s a distinct thing from the myth of children swapped out for changelings, but I can be sympathetic to someone who doesn’t like the latter because of the former.

EDIT: I do have to ask - why do you feel a need to address comments from seven months ago? It’s pretty soundly off-topic at that point.

Just because they have Celtic or whatever region's folklore roots or mentions for this incarnation doesn't remove the fact of anti-sematic caricature it's had for awhile, green skin? nook hose?

And that's not even getting into the misogyny of the creature as well.

You can point at whatever myth you want, it doesn't take away from the cariacture, just like you can't claim that drow were never racist because they're inspired in part by Norse myths.

"Green skin and a hooked nose" so like a stereotypical witch then? You're literally describing the wicked witch in the west.

Hag stuff

What would you propose ought to be the antagonist then, and how would you make them inoffensive to any and all potential parties without reducing the entertainment value of the AP?

And not saying that it's impossible to create an inoffensive villain that is also entertaining (though I would argue that most compelling villains do offend our consciences in some way, even if we like them in others) but "do better Paizo, it's current year, smh" is not a critique worth responding to.

I work in extremism prevention and deradicalization. I'm around anti-Semitism on a regular basis. I get people out of white supremacist movements.

Hags are not anti-Semitic.

This is a product page for an Adventure Path. While these are important discussions to have, this is not the place for them, Please keep comments on topic.

I am personally excited for this book. I love the witch class and the Hag Coven stuff. So an adventure with a section on the Covens and dome witch themed stuff is absolutely wanted and needed.

I am personally excited for this book. I love the witch class and the Hag Coven stuff. So an adventure with a section on the Covens and dome witch themed stuff is absolutely wanted and needed.

I pitched a changeling PC for this AP, to hypothetically let a GM have one of these antagonists be their parent!

Any chance the offical cover art will be shown soon? :-D

This module looks bad to the bone! I can't wait to get it.

Ohhhh that cover art!!

Loving the cover art! Excited to get this.

If any one has received their copy, can you spoil me some Hag, Coven and Witch things, please and thank you.

New hag types are rust hag and grave hag. There is also the creeping crone, an undead formed from a hag who died of old age.

Major article on pages 69-72 is "Secrets of the Coven". It is incredibly detailed.

Magic items (mostly hag or witch themed) include extraction cauldron, gingerbread house, hag eyes (4 types), lucky kitchen witch, potion of annulment, stuffed fox, and cauldron of flying.

I didn't find anything specific to witch class abilities.

New hag types are rust hag and grave hag. There is also the creeping crone, an undead formed from a hag who died of old age.

Major article on pages 69-72 is "Secrets of the Coven". It is incredibly detailed.

Magic items (mostly hag or witch themed) include extraction cauldron, gingerbread house, hag eyes (4 types), lucky kitchen witch, potion of annulment, stuffed fox, and cauldron of flying.

I didn't find anything specific to witch class abilities.

Any Feats at all?

David knott 242 wrote:

New hag types are rust hag and grave hag. There is also the creeping crone, an undead formed from a hag who died of old age.

Major article on pages 69-72 is "Secrets of the Coven". It is incredibly detailed.

Magic items (mostly hag or witch themed) include extraction cauldron, gingerbread house, hag eyes (4 types), lucky kitchen witch, potion of annulment, stuffed fox, and cauldron of flying.

I didn't find anything specific to witch class abilities.

Any Feats at all?

No Feats, several items and 6 spells. Not to mention the Vehicle Cauldron of Flying David mentioned.

keftiu wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

New hag types are rust hag and grave hag. There is also the creeping crone, an undead formed from a hag who died of old age.

Major article on pages 69-72 is "Secrets of the Coven". It is incredibly detailed.

Magic items (mostly hag or witch themed) include extraction cauldron, gingerbread house, hag eyes (4 types), lucky kitchen witch, potion of annulment, stuffed fox, and cauldron of flying.

I didn't find anything specific to witch class abilities.

Any Feats at all?

No Feats, several items and 6 spells. Not to mention the Vehicle Cauldron of Flying David mentioned.

Are the spells anti-hag themed? Hag themed? Religious themed?

xNellynelx wrote:

keftiu wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

New hag types are rust hag and grave hag. There is also the creeping crone, an undead formed from a hag who died of old age.

Major article on pages 69-72 is "Secrets of the Coven". It is incredibly detailed.

Magic items (mostly hag or witch themed) include extraction cauldron, gingerbread house, hag eyes (4 types), lucky kitchen witch, potion of annulment, stuffed fox, and cauldron of flying.

I didn't find anything specific to witch class abilities.

Any Feats at all?

No Feats, several items and 6 spells. Not to mention the Vehicle Cauldron of Flying David mentioned.

Are the spells anti-hag themed? Hag themed? Religious themed?

The spells are all from the Hunter's Hagbook (which I somehow missed in the list of magic items above). The spells seem to be mostly hag themed even though that grimoire was written by a monster hunter.

What is the new stuff for Covens?

What is the new stuff for Covens?

I am not even sure where to start, as the article is fairly long. It definitely does get into the reasons that a coven with more than three members is unstable, as it makes at least one member expendable.

Prince Setehrael wrote:

What is the new stuff for Covens?

I am not even sure where to start, as the article is fairly long. It definitely does get into the reasons that a coven with more than three members is unstable, as it makes at least one member expendable.

Any new spells or abilities added to the Civen Ability?

Lots of witchy-themed stuff. Flying Cauldrons, Gingerbread Houses, etc.

David knott 242 wrote:

Prince Setehrael wrote:

What is the new stuff for Covens?

I am not even sure where to start, as the article is fairly long. It definitely does get into the reasons that a coven with more than three members is unstable, as it makes at least one member expendable.

Any new spells or abilities added to the Civen Ability?

Coven Manifestations are All-Seeing, Crafting, Scattered, and Recusant. Each has a minor mechanic associated with it.

Coven Commitments are Destiny, Domination, Secrecy, Tradition, Terror, and Vengeance. Each has associated coven spells and rituals.

Prince Setehrael wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Prince Setehrael wrote:

What is the new stuff for Covens?

I am not even sure where to start, as the article is fairly long. It definitely does get into the reasons that a coven with more than three members is unstable, as it makes at least one member expendable.

Any new spells or abilities added to the Civen Ability?

Coven Manifestations are All-Seeing, Crafting, Scattered, and Recusant. Each has a minor mechanic associated with it.

Coven Commitments are Destiny, Domination, Secrecy, Tradition, Terror, and Vengeance. Each has associated coven spells and rituals.

Oooooohhhhhh all of this sounds really interesting.

This adventure looking very cool :O