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An expansion of rules for underwater combat that clarifies those presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and introduces new challenges to consider.
I'm going to be honest, did we really need new challenges to consider when dealing with underwater combat, possibly the most reviled and feared scenario in all of DnD history?
If it's expanding and clarifying the rules for underwater combat then why not?
Because the rules are still a very long-form way of saying "don't do this, no seriously, don't." Clarifying that would just make it more clear that underwater combat is terrible for everyone involved that can't turn into a fish.
Also, the clarification is a separate thing from the NEW challenges.
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If it's expanding and clarifying the rules for underwater combat then why not?Because the rules are still a very long-form way of saying "don't do this, no seriously, don't." Clarifying that would just make it more clear that underwater combat is terrible for everyone involved that can't turn into a fish.
Also, the clarification is a separate thing from the NEW challenges.
You have absolutely no way of knowing that is what these yet unreleased rules say. Maybe, just maybe, these new underwater combat rules are meant to facilitate underwater combat.
"An expansion of rules for underwater combat that clarifies those presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and introduces new challenges to consider."
That doesn't seem all that separate.
If it's expanding and clarifying the rules for underwater combat then why not?Because the rules are still a very long-form way of saying "don't do this, no seriously, don't." Clarifying that would just make it more clear that underwater combat is terrible for everyone involved that can't turn into a fish.
Also, the clarification is a separate thing from the NEW challenges.
You have absolutely no way of knowing that is what these yet unreleased rules say. Maybe, just maybe, these new underwater combat rules are meant to facilitate underwater combat.
"An expansion of rules for underwater combat that clarifies those presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and introduces new challenges to consider."
That doesn't seem all that separate.
Man, you really like being combative. Clarification is just that. Clearing up any confusing wording, and possibly in doing so introducing new challenges that weren't initially clear (or the new challenges are separate, or both). I imagine some of the options in the book will allow characters to function slightly better underwater (probably pricey magic items that run on Freedom of Movement), but I seriously doubt that a campaign setting book is going to introduce rules that override or significantly change rules in a core book that have existed since before Pathfinder did.
I very sincerely doubt that the rules in the book are going to do anything besides reaffirm that it's never safe to go in the water.
It's almost like Paizo knew how messed up the underwater rules were, and are releasing this book in an effort to revamp them and make them more fun/accessible. Because there's going to be a whole underwater adventure path, and they want people to actually enjoy it.
See above, I doubt Paizo is going to release rules that override or completely replace existing rules in a core book.
An expansion of rules for underwater combat that clarifies those presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and introduces new challenges to consider.I'm going to be honest, did we really need new challenges to consider when dealing with underwater combat, possibly the most reviled and feared scenario in all of DnD history?
I seriously have no idea what you're talking about, my friend. I've run numerous underwater combat scenarios in my time as GM in Pathfinder, and my players have never reviled them or feared such a scenario. Honestly, the brief combat rules for underwater from the CRB aren't terribly restrictive, and there are all kinds of ways that they can be gotten around by players. Truthfully, I'll love to have a book that does expand and create new challenges, because, as they are, it's too easy for the PCs to get around them.
"but I seriously doubt that a campaign setting book is going to introduce rules that override or significantly change rules in a core book that have existed since before Pathfinder did."
That's exactly what the description is saying it's going to do though.
No, it really doesn't. Clarify =/= change. Expansion is adding to, not changing. If it was updating then yes, it would be changing, but it isn't.
I seriously have no idea what you're talking about, my friend. I've run numerous underwater combat scenarios in my time as GM in Pathfinder, and my players have never reviled them or feared such a scenario. Honestly, the brief combat rules for underwater from the CRB aren't terribly restrictive, and there are all kinds of ways that they can be gotten around by players.
We have played in very, very different games then. Nothing more fun than trying to fight a single Aboleth underwater and losing handily without it even needing to use magic while the gunslinger can't hit its touch AC due to penalties and the barbarian's attacks barely scratch it.
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If you're adding something, that means you're changing something by adding to it.
Expanding AND clarifying means they rules are going to be changed in some ways. They may have well said "updates" since that's what these are. I honestly have no idea why you are so opposed to the idea that these rules might be a bit different than what they originally were.
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Wouldn't updated underwater rules make more sense for Ultimate Wilderness since that is a hardcover book and in the RPG product line.
The rules for water have needed updating for a long time.
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects.
OK, thanks for the info Luthorne.
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Well the rules needed to be adjusted at some point.
No game that is as long running as dnd or even pathfinder goes without some alterations and changes over time. And to be fair, underwater originally the foreign element within the traditional game structure.
After all its a plane of multi-directional movement, with different modifiers and rules, which dramatically affects how actions take place.
Now while pathfinder character should be cautious at times, it isn't helpful for design when players will more than likely take on almost ANY encounter on dry land rather than attempt to fight anything below the surface of water without possessing extreme advantages.
Hence why i am happy for this book, so I can employ some of those potentially cool encounters and environments like raiding Undersea Caverns, exploring cities among the coral depths, and even fights with Bioluminecent Horrors where the waters are beyond sunlight's touch.
An Encounter with a Vampiric Squid Creature could be awesome and an interesting question on how to defeat within its lair among the depths.
Who knows.
Well underwater does require more prep then any other earth-like environment especially if you go deep enough to take pressure damage and deal with other deep sea problems.
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"but I seriously doubt that a campaign setting book is going to introduce rules that override or significantly change rules in a core book that have existed since before Pathfinder did."
That's exactly what the description is saying it's going to do though.
No, it really doesn't. Clarify =/= change. Expansion is adding to, not changing. If it was updating then yes, it would be changing, but it isn't.
I don't remember if it has been out and out stated but it has definitely been very heavily implied by Paizo staff in interviews and Seminars that the rules for underwater combat were getting revamped, not just clarified. Maybe the back text of the book does not do the best job of conveying that to you, but I doubt your interpretation will match the eventual reality.
So many of these misunderstandings would be less likely to occur if more people would take advantage of all the work that Know Direction and others put into getting recordings of seminars and interviews with staff.
I do remember seeing somewhere that they are revamping the underwater rules. This was before this book was announced.
Managing Developer
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Both new rules and clarifications to existing rules are going to be in this book. The new rules appear as player options, like archetypes, feats, new class options, spells, magic items, gear, and the like. The clarifications are things that will build upon the rules for underwater combat found in the Core Rulebook.
If you look at those rules, they, for the most part, make the assumption that the enemy is in the water and the PCs are outside of the water. Those rules also don't specifically say how something like freedom of movement operates, and leave some weird disconnects about things like how a kraken takes penalties to attack and damage while underwater—which is pretty nonsensical. There are also some clarifications about how different spells operate underwater, further explanations of how Perception and Survival should be dealt with underwater, and does a current count as running water if you're an aquatic vampire. Things like that.
Wait...there's aquatic vampires now?!!
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Wait...there's aquatic vampires now?!!There's always been aquatic vampires. As it notes in the template:
If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire is not unduly harmed by running water.Since they're usually fey, humanoids, and monstrous humanoids, there's a large number of possible aquatic vampires.
The Aquatic Adventures rules for vampires are more useful for terrestrial vampires that want to travel under the seas and are wondering whether that's trivial, scary, or suicidal.
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I am disappointed that I have never seen a mermaid vampire.
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*copies down Rysky's notes*
An aquatic variant vampire template would be cool. They could become a swarm of sea creatures or change into water instead of mist form, change into aquatic creatures instead of bat, wolf, etc. maybe have weakness to coral, shell, or bone instead of silver or wooden stakes, etc.
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Looking forward to this book - would love to see more of this kind of thing in the future giving us air, mounted combat, environmental etc.
Has anyone gotten their pdf yet?
No. Shipping has been postponed and won't start until tomorrow. That means that there probably won't be too many spoilers before Thursday.
Well crap.
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Actually, I just got my PDF this morning, so I can offer a little rundown. First off, about two thirds of the books are actual campaign setting flavor, detailing the various seas of Golarion. Starting on page 42, then, we're getting "Aquatic Rules". Here's a table of content with some notes:
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Swimming and Aquatic Adventures
- The Basics
- Buoyancy
- Thinking in Three Dimensions
Fighting Underwater
- Physical Attacks — This section introduces a rule change, you are now allowed to ignore the total cover provided by the surface if you're attacking with a piercing weapon, but you get a –2 penalty to attack. This is explicitly called out as a change form the rule in the Core Rulebook.
- Off-Balance and Prone Underwater
- Freedom of Movement
- Spells — This sections calls out acid spells, cloud and weather spells, cold spells, electricity spells, fire spells. invisibility, and sonic spells, and how they all could function slightly differently underwater.
- Perception and Survival — These skills get some modifications for underwater use.
Underwater Hazards and Features
- Drowning
- Oceanic Zones — This section introduces some rules for depth pressure – surface dwellers get problems starting at 100 ft. down – temperature, and lighting.
- Currents and Running Water
- Whirlpools
Aquatic Archetypes and Class Options
- Aquachymist (Alchemist Archetype)
- Aquanaut (Fighter Archetype)
- Aquatic (Bloodrager Archetype)
- Deep Shaman (Shaman Archetype)
- Drowned Channeller (Spiritualist Archetype)
- Oceanrider (Cavalier Archetype)
- Order of the Waves (Cavalier Order)
- Pelagic Hunter (Hunter Archetype)
- Tidal Trickster (Rogue Archetype)
- Underwater (Ranger Combat Style)
Living Underwater
- Underwater Gear
- Aquatic Feats – Aquadynamic Focus (Combat); Child of Two Worlds (Story); Deep Breath; Dolphin Circle (Combat); Dolphin Dart (Combat); Dolphin Style (Combat, Style); Favor of the Empress of Torrents; Master Swimmer; Murky Spell (Metamagic); Pressure Adept; Shark Leap (Combat); Shark Style (Combat, Style); Shark Tear (Combat); Steam Spell (Metamagic); Touch of the Brackish Emperor
- Aquatic Spells
- Aquatic Treasure
So, there you are.
Aquatic bloodrager bloodline would make more sense then an archetype.
Aquatic treasure?
Oh wow, that's a LOT of archetypes for a Campaign Setting book. Could you elaborate a bit more (if you're willing) on the Aquachymist?
"Aquatic" is indeed a bloodrager bloodline; I mistyped.
I also overlooked the Aquakineticist (Kineticist archetype).
Steam Spell makes spells with the fire descriptor work underwater (but not so good on land),
The aquachymist has Underwater Bombs that work underwater and do steam damage, and instead of throwing (which doesn't work so good underwater) he uses the new buoyancy rules to target creatures directly above or below him. He also has a mutagen that makes him amphibious.
The "Aquatic Treasure" is the usual collection of magic items. We have here: apparatus of the octopus, the aquadynamic armor special ability, aquamarine bag of tricks, coral hippocampus figurine of wondrous power, elixir of two worlds, the gasping pearl, murky metamagic rod, staff of waves, steam metamagic rod, tidefinder, traveler's wet suit, and the underwater weapon special ability.
The new spells are: aquatic trail; extreme buoyancy; free swim; invisibility bubble; invisibility bubble, giant; invisibility bubble, mass; lead anchor; life current; neutral buoyancy; pressure adaptation; stabilize pressure; steam ray fusillade; unlife current; wave form.
So what about the non-crunch of the book? How is it organized? Anything of interest?
We have 2 pages of introduction, then 4-page sections each for Golarion's oceans: the Antarkos Ocean, the Arcadian Ocean, the Emabaral Ocean, the Obari Ocean, and the Okayio Ocean, each descriing ocean conditions, ocean denizens, a prominent location in the ocean, and rumored treasures that might be found in the ocean (not actual items descriptions, though). After that, smaller 2-page entries for smaller seas: the Castrovin Sea, the Fever Sea, the Inner Sea, the Ivory Sea, the Shining Sea, the Sightless Sea, the Songil Sea, the Steaming Sea, and the Valashmai Sea.
Really curious about the Drowned Channeler if you've got the time, since that sounds really flavorful. Thanks!
"Aquatic" is indeed a bloodrager bloodline; I mistyped.
I also overlooked the Aquakineticist (Kineticist archetype).
Steam Spell makes spells with the fire descriptor work underwater (but not so good on land),
The aquachymist has Underwater Bombs that work underwater and do steam damage, and instead of throwing (which doesn't work so good underwater) he uses the new buoyancy rules to target creatures directly above or below him. He also has a mutagen that makes him amphibious.
The "Aquatic Treasure" is the usual collection of magic items. We have here: apparatus of the octopus, the aquadynamic armor special ability, aquamarine bag of tricks, coral hippocampus figurine of wondrous power, elixir of two worlds, the gasping pearl, murky metamagic rod, staff of waves, steam metamagic rod, tidefinder, traveler's wet suit, and the underwater weapon special ability.
Ooh! What's the aquakineticist like? More importantly, does it look like it will join the kinetic knight as a viable archetype? Or is it more like, say, the Blightburner wrt what you get and what you give up?
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Sorry, I didn't get to it earlier, I was off working...
OK, so the Drowned Channeler has a Drowned Phantom (swim speed, water subtype, fights better underwater) and gains access some additional water-related spells (including many of the new ones). He also gains hydraulic push, slipstream, ride the waves, and fluid form as SLAs later on as his level increases.
The Aquakineticist must choose water as primary and expanded element, and gets extended basic hydrokinesis. As she levels up, she gains waterdancer and watersense as bonus wild talents. She also can breathe underwater and gains cold adaptation as a bonus (slightly improved, and improvable even more by taking burn, eventually turning into immunity). Her cold resistance/immunity also applies to pressure damage. Finally, underwater, she can form her cold blast into a physical blast of ice, dealing cold and piercing damage.
Ooh, thanks! I appreciate the info.
Thanks for the info Zaister;)
You're welcome!
Sorry, I didn't get to it earlier, I was off working...
OK, so the Drowned Channeler has a Drowned Phantom (swim speed, water subtype, fights better underwater) and gains access some additional water-related spells (including many of the new ones). He also gains hydraulic push, slipstream, ride the waves, and fluid form as SLAs later on as his level increases.
The Aquakineticist must choose water as primary and expanded element, and gets extended basic hydrokinesis. As she levels up, she gains waterdancer and watersense as bonus wild talents. She also can breathe underwater and gains cold adaptation as a bonus (slightly improved, and improvable even more by taking burn, eventually turning into immunity). Her cold resistance/immunity also applies to pressure damage. Finally, underwater, she can form her cold blast into a physical blast of ice, dealing cold and piercing damage.
Very cool! And the only thing they give up is the option to expand into different elements?... A big cost, since you usually want to expand with water. But maybe worth it (especially for a campaign with a fair amount of water adventuring)...