Pathfinder Player Companion: Legacy of Dragons (PFRPG)

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

It's only late if you don't play past those levels.

It starting off as tiny is offset by it ending up as Huge.

APs barely get past those levels, and at that point, Mounts and the like become hard to use most of the time.

1) Not all games are APs (but you get Huge at 17 and that's where most APs end so it's a nice endgame boost).

2) Mounts that can't fly.

Enclosed environment?

Drakes don't have the no-dungeon clause that other mounts tend to have.

Not the same dungeons height clause, but other than that, they have the same problem mounts, animal companions and summons get.

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

*shrugs*

If you want a good Will save don't trade away Bravery and go with the options you mentioned.

Or take the Archetype and take the other suggestions for boosting up your Will.

Or play another class with a better Will save and options regarding Will saves.

I don't know how to say it, but, in the past few weeks, many of your retorts have made little to no sense.

?

How did that not make sense?

Saying "don't like it, don't play it" doesn't address any of the issues, it's avoiding talking about them. and many people hate when others do that.

You'll notice (if you actually read my response) that I adresses their point twice before suggesting they try another clas if those two other suggestions didn't work for em.

Nope, you didn't, you just said, "don't take the part you want"...

Rysky wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

*shrugs*

If you want a good Will save don't trade away Bravery and go with the options you mentioned.

Or take the Archetype and take the other suggestions for boosting up your Will.

Or play another class with a better Will save and options regarding Will saves.

I don't know how to say it, but, in the past few weeks, many of your retorts have made little to no sense.

?

How did that not make sense?

Saying "don't like it, don't play it" doesn't address any of the issues, it's avoiding talking about them. and many people hate when others do that.

You'll notice (if you actually read my response) that I adresses their point twice before suggesting they try another clas if those two other suggestions didn't work for em.

Nope, you didn't, you just said, "don't take the part you want"...

Dafuq are you reading? Seriously?

Rysky wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Guy St-Amant wrote:

Rysky wrote:

It's only late if you don't play past those levels.

It starting off as tiny is offset by it ending up as Huge.

APs barely get past those levels, and at that point, Mounts and the like become hard to use most of the time.

1) Not all games are APs (but you get Huge at 17 and that's where most APs end so it's a nice endgame boost).

2) Mounts that can't fly.

Enclosed environment?

Drakes don't have the no-dungeon clause that other mounts tend to have.

Not the same dungeons height clause, but other than that, they have the same problem mounts, animal companions and summons get.

Which are?

So I too have a few questions about this book.

Was dragonheir scion meant to stick at +1 damage for its arcane strike aside from the draconic strike ability? Since they don't have a caster level, it doesn't increase in level. Also why do they lose bonus feats at levels at which they don't gain them (3 and 5 respectively)?

Also with the dragonblood chymist, does explosive breath still count as the only discovery one can add to their bombs? If so, that's really not super great.

Well, according to Pathfinder Society's Campaign Clarifications, they say:

The dragonheir scion gains fearful might at 2nd level. She gains draconic strike and draconic presence at 4th level and 6th level, respectively, replacing the fighter bonus feats she would normally gain at these levels.

So that's probably just an error.

Well, according to Pathfinder Society's Campaign Clarifications, they say:

Quote:

The dragonheir scion gains fearful might at 2nd level. She gains draconic strike and draconic presence at 4th level and 6th level, respectively, replacing the fighter bonus feats she would normally gain at these levels.

So that's probably just an error.

But no clarification for Arcane Strike so I think that is stuck at +1.

I'm glad that this book dedicated some space to wyverans. I've been avoiding them because I didn't like their original art and they were a RP 17 race. The new art makes them look like they would fit in much better among humanoids, and the new race traits can bring their abilities a little more in line with the standard races by weakening their wings.

I have to say though, I really wish their stats had been changed so they had a charisma bonus! Why is it that none of the races which are related to dragons and are the most thematically appropriate for dragon themed classes/archetypes have a charisma bonus?

You'll notice (if you actually read my response) that I adresses their point twice before suggesting they try another clas if those two other suggestions didn't work for em.

Didn't really feel like you did, but this isn't a hill worth anybody dying on, so let's forget I asked.

For a Hill that will kill, why we don't know

RE: This Bravery Will Save talk.

It's one of the problems with balancing the Fighter up with Bravery improvements. One that I'm sure the designers are familiar with, since I'm quite certain Mark Seifter has commented on it in the past, but I'm having trouble finding it. Maybe I've made that up but whatever, not the point really?

Unfortunately, the Fighter has little else to replace and you don't have a whole lot of room to make flavorful and impactful archetypes without modifying it.

After getting the book I have to say I'm surprised how much stuff I actually want to use.

The scaled monk actually gives me a reason to lay one instead of a brawler. While they may not be the strongest archetypes on the block both Dragonblood Chemist and Sovereign Blade look fun. I also like Dragonheir Scion for the most part, but am holding out hope that arcane strike is supposed to scale, even at 1/2 or 1/4 level.

Imperial dragon bloodlines for my homebrew campaign, even if not 100% happy with some of them. And still looking at making drake companion work.

What're the abilities/trade offs for the ranger archetype? Drake warden was it?

What're the abilities/trade offs for the ranger archetype? Drake warden was it?

You get a weaker Drake than the other archetypes in exchange for Hunter's Bond, Second Favored Enemy, and Swift Tracker.

Specter1356 wrote:

What're the abilities/trade offs for the ranger archetype? Drake warden was it?

You get a weaker Drake than the other archetypes in exchange for Hunter's Bond, Second Favored Enemy, and Swift Tracker.

Is it any good then? How is the drake compared to say a wolf companion?

Rysky wrote:

Specter1356 wrote:

What're the abilities/trade offs for the ranger archetype? Drake warden was it?

You get a weaker Drake than the other archetypes in exchange for Hunter's Bond, Second Favored Enemy, and Swift Tracker.

Is it any good then? How is the drake compared to say a wolf companion?

It has d12s, can fly, and can also possibly burrow, swim, bite ghosts, and gain breath attacks.

The ranger, and maybe druid, are the only ones where I feel like it's really worth taking.

The Cavalier loses most of it's class abilities, and postpones charge till level 9, and can't actually ride the drake till higher levels, 9 or 13 depending on size. And unless I missed something you still have to take the special drake ability to use it as a mount. The paladin gives up a lot of spellcasting among other things while being restricted to one god, Apsu.

It seems like drakes make for absolutely terrible flying mounts, particularly for medium characters. Not only they need to invest about everything into making it a decent flier, the archetypes are pretty costly in trades as well. Makes for a better investment to just spend two feats into Monstrous Mount and MM Mastery for a flying mount, which can also be obtained much earlier. Endgame wise (Levels 17+) it seems like the Drake will outdamage the Griffon offensively as a mount and be much sturdier; but having to wait until level 15 to get the Drake to work as a flying mount (And with a disastrously terrible -10 to Fly from it being Clumsy maneuverability and Large size) is just ridiculous.

Level 13 for medium to ride, only 9 for small.

But yeah they were really afraid of flying mounts here. I might try a small cavalier, but giving up banner and tactician seems kind of a steep cost.

Level 13 for medium to ride, only 9 for small.

But yeah they were really afraid of flying mounts here. I might try a small cavalier, but giving up banner and tactician seems kind of a steep cost.

That is as a ground mount. For Flying, you need to get all Glide, Flight, Mount, and either Improved Mount or Improved Flight, as Mount in of itself will cause the drake to lose it's highest drake power related to flying while carrying a rider, and gliding is most certainly not flying.

EDIT: And in the meantime, Draconic Malice allows for non-antipaladins to finally have a way to pierce fear immunity, that is, against living creatures (And not undead or constructs, which are likely more common enemies with immunity to it)

What subtypes do the drakes have?

jedi8187 wrote:

Level 13 for medium to ride, only 9 for small.

But yeah they were really afraid of flying mounts here. I might try a small cavalier, but giving up banner and tactician seems kind of a steep cost.

That is as a ground mount. For Flying, you need to get all Glide, Flight, Mount, and either Improved Mount or Improved Flight, as Mount in of itself will cause the drake to lose it's highest drake power related to flying while carrying a rider, and gliding is most certainly not flying.

EDIT: And in the meantime, Draconic Malice allows for non-antipaladins to finally have a way to pierce fear immunity, that is, against living creatures (And not undead or constructs, which are likely more common enemies with immunity to it)

Oh yeah I forgot that....that really sucks. Not even worth it in the end I don't think then.

What subtypes do the drakes have?

Choice between aether, air, cold, earth, fire or water.

When you add in the class abilities you pass on, it really starts to become an opportunity cost thing. Your giving up too much for something. This is especially bad for someone like me who thinks your core concept should be online by level 3 <core concet means the buzz line for your character, bells and whistles can be added later. In this case Drake Rider, which doesn't come online till 13 at the earliest>

*cackles with the knowledge that he made bravery a desirable class feature*

Don't worry Mister Augunas, I still appreciate you making fighters better than average. ;)

The dragonheir Scion is one of the few fighter archetypes I really like.

The ranger, and maybe druid, are the only ones where I feel like it's really worth taking.

The Cavalier loses most of it's class abilities, and postpones charge till level 9, and can't actually ride the drake till higher levels, 9 or 13 depending on size. And unless I missed something you still have to take the special drake ability to use it as a mount. The paladin gives up a lot of spellcasting among other things while being restricted to one god, Apsu.

I don't think the Paladin's spellcasting restrictions are that bad, actually. Here are the spells that a Silver Champion Paladin can cast:

1st Level
Animate Rope
Command
Divine Favor
Expeditious Retreat
Floating Disk
Longstrider
Magic Fang
Protection from Evil
Protection from Chaos

2nd Level
Align Weapon (Good or Law)
Animal Trance
Locate Object
Wood Shape

3rd Level
Draconic Reservoir
Fly
Greater Magic Fang
Magic Circle Against Evil
Magic Circle Against Chaos
Prayer
Stone Shape

4th Level
Dimension Door
Holy Smite
Locate Creature
Minor Creation
Order's Wrath
Poison

I think that there are enough buffs, mobility-enhancing spells, and utility there that its not a bad trade for the Silver Champion.

jedi8187 wrote:

The ranger, and maybe druid, are the only ones where I feel like it's really worth taking.

The Cavalier loses most of it's class abilities, and postpones charge till level 9, and can't actually ride the drake till higher levels, 9 or 13 depending on size. And unless I missed something you still have to take the special drake ability to use it as a mount. The paladin gives up a lot of spellcasting among other things while being restricted to one god, Apsu.

I don't think the Paladin's spellcasting restrictions are that bad, actually. Here are the spells that a Silver Champion Paladin can cast:

1st Level
Animate Rope
Command
Divine Favor
Expeditious Retreat
Floating Disk
Longstrider
Magic Fang
Protection from Evil
Protection from Chaos

2nd Level
Align Weapon (Good or Law)
Animal Trance
Locate Object
Wood Shape

3rd Level
Draconic Reservoir
Fly
Greater Magic Fang
Magic Circle Against Evil
Magic Circle Against Chaos
Prayer
Stone Shape

4th Level
Dimension Door
Holy Smite
Locate Creature
Minor Creation
Order's Wrath
Poison

I think that there are enough buffs, mobility-enhancing spells, and utility there that its not a bad trade for the Silver Champion.

The list may be serviceable but you lose a lot of options. It's an oppurtunity cost of a lot of your magic, for something the works and covers your needs, but not as thoroughly as you normally could.

The options change the Dragonborn conversion that I did a while ago. I don't want to raise a dead thread, but the changes [i]Legacy of Dragons[i] bring to my Dragonborn conversion are incredible. There are a lot of options, including the fighter archetype, that removes some of the traits (wings, slapping tail); but new traits are available (draconic magic, draconic heritage, and draconic scholar).

The new bloodlines are something to think about when creating sorcerer characters who are dragonborn. Plus the martial arts (of which one is related to the linnorms). Its all cool.

I don't think many of those traits were touched on too much (racial and otherwise)? What do we get with them?

You talking about the standard traits, the ones that replace racial abilities, or what kind of bonuses they give you toad dude? If you still need help I can probably answer all you need to know.

jedi8187 wrote:

Level 13 for medium to ride, only 9 for small.

But yeah they were really afraid of flying mounts here. I might try a small cavalier, but giving up banner and tactician seems kind of a steep cost.

That is as a ground mount. For Flying, you need to get all Glide, Flight, Mount, and either Improved Mount or Improved Flight, as Mount in of itself will cause the drake to lose it's highest drake power related to flying while carrying a rider, and gliding is most certainly not flying.

EDIT: And in the meantime, Draconic Malice allows for non-antipaladins to finally have a way to pierce fear immunity, that is, against living creatures (And not undead or constructs, which are likely more common enemies with immunity to it)

Yeah, was part of why I was so harsh in the review. To make matters worse for the cavalier, as a Tiny creature with 1d12, meh Con, and a raise our lose it forever mechanic the cavalier is likey to not have his Drake fight anything at all for the first few levels until it somehow bulked up or gets its breath weapon. It's too costly to risk the thing to AoOs so it will basically end up your cool foul mouthed lizard parrot for the bulk of you first 3 levels easily.

This book hit a fair amount of what I've been hoping for, which I was a touch surprised at. The Draconic Shaman was interesting, but I would have liked one that had more Draconic abilities and an option for something like a pseudodragon or faerie dragon instead of the drake, but I have no room to complain. The new options are spot on and interesting in my opinion.

Still have hopes for a Paizo equivalent of the Draconomicon though.

I don't think the Paladin's spellcasting restrictions are that bad, actually. Here are the spells that a Silver Champion Paladin can cast:

I actually really like this list. Keeps Divine Favor and gives Fly and some odd spells a Paladin wouldn't normally get. I'm down with it.

Any info on the Expanded Bloodlines?

Any info on the Expanded Bloodlines?

Mostly they swap energy type and breath shape for the breath weapons and modify the bloodline arcana. Too many to list here; can you be more specific?

EDIT: And in the meantime, Draconic Malice allows for non-antipaladins to finally have a way to pierce fear immunity, that is, against living creatures (And not undead or constructs, which are likely more common enemies with immunity to it)

If its any consolation, I designed that spell so dragons could make all of those pesky paladins cry.

Also with the dragonblood chymist, does explosive breath still count as the only discovery one can add to their bombs? If so, that's really not super great.

The exact text is "He gains the breath weapon bomb alchemist discovery but must apply this discovery to every bomb he creates." So it's not an ability that functions like BWB, it is BWB. And since BWB is a starred discovery you can't apply other bomb-modifying discoveries as a result, such as any of the extra elemental bombs, any of the cloud bombs, Fast Bombs, but bizarrely Explosive Missile which I guess involves hocking a loogie onto an arrow and firing it.

Plus it replaces Throw Anything, so no Int to damage with splash weapons.

I really hope to see legacy of fey, elementals, nature(animals, plants, and vermin), beast(magical beast), aberrations, celestials, fiends, and more such books.

I am curious, is there any mention of the scaled fist being allowed to be neutral? IIRC the sovereign dragons are neutral and there was a mention that the samurai archetype could be neutral because of that. Another archetype that relaxes the monk alignment restrictions would be cool, as I freely admit I am not a fan of these restrictions in the first place.

I am curious, is there any mention of the scaled fist being allowed to be neutral? IIRC the sovereign dragons are neutral and there was a mention that the samurai archetype could be neutral because of that. Another archetype that relaxes the monk alignment restrictions would be cool, as I freely admit I am not a fan of these restrictions in the first place.

There isn't any note regarding a Scaled Fist's alignment at all. Still have to be Lawful.

*wonders if we'll see more dragon themed stuff in a future book*

LOVE the martial artist artwork on page 20. Fantastic, evocative pose and expression, accompanied by top notch detail work. I'm not sure which artist is responsible, but great job.

Also, the Calligraphy Dragon (art and creature) is adorable.

*wonders if we'll see more dragon themed stuff in a future book*

I certainly wouldn't mind a manual featuring statblocks, lair information, and details on treasure hordes for each type of true dragon (aka red, silver, umbral, forest, void, nightmare, etc etc) currently lairing on or near Golarion. Heck, maybe some of the non-true dragons could be included as well (Vishap, Cetus, Gorynych, Kongamato, Scitalis, Shen, Taniniver, etc etc) or some of the varieties of Linnorms in the Land of the Linnorm Kings or perhaps even one or two Azi?

Berselius,

Did you say Linnorms?! ;)

Berselius,

Did you say Linnorms?! ;)

Why yes I did. ^_^

All dragons are welcome.

I'm an equal opportunity dragon statter! :D

Tuvarkz wrote:

EDIT: And in the meantime, Draconic Malice allows for non-antipaladins to finally have a way to pierce fear immunity, that is, against living creatures (And not undead or constructs, which are likely more common enemies with immunity to it)

If its any consolation, I designed that spell so dragons could make all of those pesky paladins cry.

Except that short of building a dragon into the Cornugon Smash lineup or intimidate builds (Because outside of the Intimidate Signature Skill unlock at 15+ HD where the DC for the increased effect kicks up to a decent amount; intimidating as a standard action is not worth it, and barely so as a move action); a dragon's frightful presence will still go against a Strong Will save+Charisma Mod+(Possible Wis mod, but likely 0 or -1/-2)+4 morale from Aura of Courage (As it bypasses the fear immunity aspect but the paladin is still his own ally) plus any other bonuses such as a cloak of resistance.

Hoping for some developer feedback regarding the Dragonheir Scion. Is his arcane strike stuck at +1 (assuming no multiclassing) or is his caster level equal to his fighter level for the purpose of that ability?

I'd like to play one in PFS, but if the former is correct, that's a pretty weak feat replacement.

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Berselius,

Did you say Linnorms?! ;)

Why yes I did. ^_^

All dragons are welcome.

I'm an equal opportunity dragon statter! :D

Sweet! *goes on to dream about linnorms and blood thirsty viking princesses*