Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Pathfinder Unchained (OGL)

Anyone willing to brief us on the simplified casting system?

That really sucks. That won't stop Fighter dips if I make Fighter only.

I will change it to Fighter Level + Con modifier

That could be a really good point.

its worth mentioning that one of the style strikes a monk can gain gives him an additional attack at a -5, with the two downsides that he must make a punch, and the extra attack does non lethal damage.

I'm sure there's lots of options to provide all sorts of abilities that help complement/supplement the flurry of blows. It'll largely remain a matter of the opportunity cost for them vs what resource you have to give up to use them (free action with conditions, swift action, spend a ki point, etc). I've got a fairly optimised CRB+APG+UM+UCombat monk (although it does use a quarterstaff to qualify for perfect strike) that, by way of drunken ki and Qin-Gong-Jin, has some interesting always-on and encounter-level powers (that is probably more than a bit rules abusive because we don't use the intoxication/alcoholism rules in PFS). So I'll be interested how a straight Unchained monk compares to that.

For Variant Multiclassing I'll be interested to have a very close look at that. I'll be interested to see what the ramifications would be for converting the VMC to a feat chain instead that has your level as a pre-requisite. You still have to get the lower level abilities to get the higher level abilities. But it does let you stop "VMC"ing midway through if you so desire.

There's a few reasons, but the most relevant for you aspiring Unchainers here (who I'm hoping will be taking these rules and hacking them to be different and a perfect fit for your own group

I do find this to be a very interestingly timed release in conjunction with these forum posts by Mark. Among it's fans, D&D 5th edition is considered the "do it yourself" edition as the math is so simple (and the guidance in the DMG fairly comprehensive) that it's quite easy to do (also the lack of new content in the foreseeable future is necessitating it amongst some segments of it's fanbase). Of course 4th ed's math was even simpler, but the philosophy behind 4th edition was very much RAW in the community.

In my corner of the Pathfinder community it's always been "by the book" with houserules limited to banning the completely broken stuff, houseruling the salvagable stuff and giving slight bumps to the very weak but very flavourful stuff (this was done sparingly). Pathfinder Unchained (and Mark's posts) seem to be espousing a "do it yourself" philosophy and encouraging fans to houserule/homebrew large swathes of content. Maybe my corner has been the exception and this attitude has always been prevalent in the larger Pathfinder community. But if it hasn't, I'll be very interested to see if Pathfinfder Unchained introduces a paradigm shift for the larger community and we see a lot more groups looking to "make the rules their own" now that some more guidance is getting introduced by way of this book.

*Reads Dabbler's review"

*Cries*

The Unchained Monk was basically the only reason I was considering purchasing this book. From what I can see, none of the core problems were fixed, and in some ways the class was actually WEAKENED.

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I actually really think that the "minor" improvement from "Style Strike" and Flying Kick are gamechangers. Like. Whoa. The Monk has accomplished what it wanted to do in the first place. Also, while this isn't the best fix, if you're a monk, try to get the Automatic Bonus Progression to replace the big six. It would help a lot with all the issues talked about in their review, I tend to think.

Let's keep things on topic, folks.

There is a heck a lot more stuff worth it in this book other then a single class:)

I read somewhere that there are replacement rules for the Big 6. Can anybody give a little insight there?

I read somewhere that there are replacement rules for the Big 6. Can anybody give a little insight there?

There's considerable detail and discussion offered up thread. Sounds like there are 3 different systems for simplifying equipment.

(1) Scaling magic items. E.g. sword gets better as you level.

(2) Combo item system so that e.g. any cloak will add on resistance if you pay extra (not exactly clear on this one)

(3) Big 6less option. Gain bonuses as your character levels (e.g. +1 resistance to all saves at lvl 3), cut WBL in half. I believe it was said that you get some bonus every level after 3, some are specified and you have flexibility in assigning others. Sounds like there's some weirdness with special enchantments on weapons and how they interact, but there was some good discussion of it upthread and Mark's promised to post (after the 29th) a slightly altered system for managing that weirdness that had to be cut for the sake of space.

EDIT. If you start <here> you'll see it. Also, the next preview blog (maybe today?) will discuss at least scaling weapons, maybe more.

I have yet to see even one feat using the stamina system. Can someone post a common feats stamina ability.

1. Power attack
2. Vital Strike
3. Cleave
4. Improved Sunder

Any of these would be great.

I know we should not copy things straight out of the book, so here's two (simplified) examples

for Cleave: you can spend 4 stamina points to negate the –2 penalty to Armor Class

As for Power Attack: spending 2 stamina points makes you gain the benefits and hindrances only until the end of your turn.

[edit]added point costs

*Reads Dabbler's review"

*Cries*

The Unchained Monk was basically the only reason I was considering purchasing this book. From what I can see, none of the core problems were fixed, and in some ways the class was actually WEAKENED.

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I read the review - agree with his concerns over the monk - however disagree on his conclusion of the changes. I think they look awesome and can't wait to playtest them.

Some of the ki powers are game changers from a read through..

I know we should not copy things straight out of the book, so here's two (simplified) examples

for Cleave: you can spend stamina points to negate the –2 penalty to Armor Class

As for Power Attack: spending stamina points makes you gain the benefits and hindrances only until the end of your turn.

Thanks! I was trying to gauge the power level of the stamina abilities.

For that you probably need to know the stamina point costs...

I'll edit them in.

I know we should not copy things straight out of the book, so here's two (simplified) examples

for Cleave: you can spend 4 stamina points to negate the –2 penalty to Armor Class

As for Power Attack: spending 2 stamina points makes you gain the benefits and hindrances only until the end of your turn.

[edit]added point costs

These do not seem all that good.

DM Sothal wrote:

I know we should not copy things straight out of the book, so here's two (simplified) examples

for Cleave: you can spend 4 stamina points to negate the –2 penalty to Armor Class

As for Power Attack: spending 2 stamina points makes you gain the benefits and hindrances only until the end of your turn.

[edit]added point costs

These do not seem all that good.

I have to agree. I was expecting a bit more. I was assuming they each cost 1 point. Now that I see they're 2 and 4 these got even weaker to me. I am slightly disappointed.

My next question. Is there anything like the trailblazer itterative attack replacement.

ie: replacing the -5 for every 5 with -2/-2, -1/-1 , 0/0

I'm not sure I understand your question.

There is an option to replace several iterative attack rolls with one roll at your full BAB, that determines how often you hit and thus determines the damage (from glancing blow [a miss by 5 or less] doing very little damage; to all attacks that had a chance to hit have hit)

It sure speeds up play, but it also does make that one roll more important to roll high, else you 'lost' all your attacks.

There is a heck a lot more stuff worth it in this book other then a single class:)

Agreed. A two star review based off a few pages is akin to giving the book a poor score because you didn't like the cover or a few pieces of art.

One can be concerned or even upset about some of the changes, but giving the book as a whole a poor review over one area is misleading. For those who haven't seen the book and are just getting bits and pieces in the thread, wait until you have it in your hands or it goes up in the PRD/SRD/Archives before discounting the whole.

DM Sothal wrote:

I know we should not copy things straight out of the book, so here's two (simplified) examples

for Cleave: you can spend 4 stamina points to negate the –2 penalty to Armor Class

As for Power Attack: spending 2 stamina points makes you gain the benefits and hindrances only until the end of your turn.

[edit]added point costs

These do not seem all that good.

A really quick look over all the pages of combat tricks tells me that the average rate of stamina points per combat trick is 2. (Don't count on this being accurate. No maths has been performed to come to this conclusion).

And I just noticed one combat trick costing 10 stamina points.

...

There are 22 pages of combat tricks.

Just subbed to get this product, very excited.

Pressed the ship as soon as possible button, and paid 20 bucks extra for shipping, mainly to get the PDF today: but it's not in my downloads.

Does this usually take a while to go through?

Just subbed to get this product, very excited.

Pressed the ship as soon as possible button, and paid 20 bucks extra for shipping, mainly to get the PDF today: but it's not in my downloads.

Does this usually take a while to go through?

Yeah, you will have to wait for the physical book to ship to gain access to the pdf. The shipping speed has nothing to do with it.

Obbu wrote:

Just subbed to get this product, very excited.

Pressed the ship as soon as possible button, and paid 20 bucks extra for shipping, mainly to get the PDF today: but it's not in my downloads.

Does this usually take a while to go through?

Yeah, you will have to wait for the physical book to ship to gain access to the pdf. The shipping speed has nothing to do with it.

That's a shame: as getting the PDF was the primary reason I subscribed.

Oh well - such is life.

I'll just continue to wrestle with this epic thread for tidbits of information.

DM Sothal wrote:

I know we should not copy things straight out of the book, so here's two (simplified) examples

for Cleave: you can spend 4 stamina points to negate the –2 penalty to Armor Class

As for Power Attack: spending 2 stamina points makes you gain the benefits and hindrances only until the end of your turn.

[edit]added point costs

These do not seem all that good.

Well, Power Atack is very good. It really doesn't need to be made better. Stamina is, at the very least, providing low-Int fighters a way to access maneuver fears tied to Int. Some of the others, like Combat Reflexes mentioned earlier, looked like a nice balance of "useful feat" and "useful option".

Anyone want to post their favorite stamina option?

I think the Combat Tricks are interesting, but they're primarily small tweaks and minor bonuses rather than the sweeping changes some people have been hoping for. For example they allow the fighter to qualify for Improved Disarm/Trip etc feats without having the right ability score, which is a nice quality of life change.

That said, there are some outliers, for better or worse. After a brief skim I think these are some of the better ones:

You can spend 10 stamina points to treat your initiative as a natural 20 if you have Improved Initiative. Handy for the inevitable Fighter v Wizard threads.

You can spend 5 stamina points to use Pummeling Style as a standard action, allowing an unarmed fighter to do a Pummeling mini-Pounce as early as level 1.

You can spend 5 stamina points to use the Snake Style parry with an attack of opportunity instead of an immediate action, allowing you to parry multiple attacks.

Then on the low end of the spectrum, I found this:
You can use Weapon Focus with a weapon you do not have Weapon Focus by spending 2 stamina each round. Similar options exist for Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. I kind of wish they'd have been a little more aggressive here, since I personally dislike the fighter who's chained to a specific weapon and heavily penalized if he picks up something else. As it stands, a 12th level fighter with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization can expect to have 15-20 Stamina, and would need to spend 8 stamina each round if he wanted to use a different weapon and benefit from those feats. That seems a little on the high end.

so how bout some one spoil the stamina options for the style feats, pretty please? :p

Nice! I'd also love to hear people's favorite low-cost option- something you can use several times in a fight.

There's 22 pages dealing with all the Stamina and Combat tricks you get from feats. There's a lot of stuff that offers little boosts you may find needed at particular times.

Spring Attack is pretty cool for getting it to work as a standard action. Combat Expertise also handy for dumping INT. Whirlwind Attack lets you spend Stamina to gain the rest of your bonus attacks you'd normally get from feats/class/spells along with the W.Attack ones.

Nice! I'd also love to hear people's favorite low-cost option- something you can use several times in a fight.

Hm... I like Arcane Armor Training. By spending 1 stamina point, you can activate Arcane Armor Mastery as a free action rather than a swift action. It's a small change, but it opens up Quickened Spells and the various Bard and Magus abilities that rely on Swift actions.

QuidEst wrote:

Nice! I'd also love to hear people's favorite low-cost option- something you can use several times in a fight.

Hm... I like Arcane Armor Training. By spending 1 stamina point, you can activate Arcane Armor Mastery as a free action rather than a swift action. It's a small change, but it opens up Quickened Spells and the various Bard and Magus abilities that rely on Swift actions.

That is very good news for Eldritch Knights! Their capstone ability, Spell Critical, requires a swift action, and the conflict with Arcane Armor Training/Mastery has always been an issue.

I'd like to see a Pathfinder Unchained GM Screen with the Gameplay rules (Revised Action Economy, Wound Thresholds, Diseases and Poisons, etc) and some spiffy new Wayne Reynolds art (of course!).

Speaking of the combat trick system, I just noticed something interesting.

The Slashing Grace combat trick allows you to select another light or one-handed slashing weapon and treat it as the chosen weapon for Slashing Grace for the cost of 2 stamina points.

As it stands right now a light slashing weapon isn't a legal weapon option for Slashing Grace. I wonder if this could be a hint towards the upcoming errata of the ACG?

Speaking of the combat trick system, I just noticed something interesting.

The Slashing Grace combat trick allows you to select another light or one-handed slashing weapon and treat it as the chosen weapon for Slashing Grace for the cost of 2 stamina points.

As it stands right now a light slashing weapon isn't a legal weapon option for Slashing Grace. I wonder if this could be a hint towards the upcoming errata of the ACG?

The key there would be "another light or one-handed", yes?

Good news if true! (And good eye spotting that!)

*Reads Dabbler's review"

*Cries*

The Unchained Monk was basically the only reason I was considering purchasing this book. From what I can see, none of the core problems were fixed, and in some ways the class was actually WEAKENED.

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I also read his review of the Unchained Monk and I'm dissatisfied with his arguments. Some background info: I followed his musings about the Vanilla Monk class semi-religiously a while ago and I thought he made very good points back then. But as I read his review, what it felt like reading was "I don't like this Monk because it's not the Monk I wanted". This isn't a jab at him, Dabbler's a cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything, I just think his review is lacking.

I'm having trouble understanding the natural attack rules under removing iterative attacks. Can anyone ELI5?

Rynjin wrote:

*Reads Dabbler's review"

*Cries*

The Unchained Monk was basically the only reason I was considering purchasing this book. From what I can see, none of the core problems were fixed, and in some ways the class was actually WEAKENED.

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

I also read his review of the Unchained Monk and I'm dissatisfied with his arguments. Some background info: I followed his musings about the Vanilla Monk class semi-religiously a while ago and I thought he made very good points back then. But as I read his review, what it felt like reading was "I don't like this Monk because it's not the Monk I wanted". This isn't a jab at him, Dabbler's a cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything, I just think his review is lacking.

Paizo hires some pretty smart people- I sincerely doubt they would have shipped a weaker version of the Monk knowing how poorly the vanilla Monk performs.

The will save was nerfed? Well consider me opt-ed out. The monk they describe is just a ki heavy brawler.

I guess unchained is all about shattering sacred cows, but that doesn't mean I have to like the changes.

The weapon finesse stamina entry seems a bit strange... it reduces your to hit penalty for using a shield :o

It almost looks like it should belong to another combat feat.

The weapon finesse stamina entry seems a bit strange... it reduces your to hit penalty for using a shield :o

It almost looks like it should belong to another combat feat.

Nope! Weapon Finesse does not play well with shields. An often forgotten part of it is that you subtract the ACP of your shield from your to-hit rolls. A Mithril Shield usually fixes that, though.

I find the idea that changing one save from good to poor renders the entire class concept moot to be fascinating.

Based solely on the discussion, you'd guess this book was 80% Monk, 10% variant multicalssing, and 10% who cares because Monk.

There is a lot of stuff in here. A lot of really good stuff.

-Skeld

I find the idea that changing one save from good to poor renders the entire class concept moot to be fascinating.

Such a phenomenon is usually accompanied by cheese and the world's smallest violin.

I have a skills query:

What is the grouping skills option?

DM Sothal wrote:

Obbu wrote:

Just subbed to get this product, very excited.

Pressed the ship as soon as possible button, and paid 20 bucks extra for shipping, mainly to get the PDF today: but it's not in my downloads.

Does this usually take a while to go through?

Yeah, you will have to wait for the physical book to ship to gain access to the pdf. The shipping speed has nothing to do with it.

That's a shame: as getting the PDF was the primary reason I subscribed.

Oh well - such is life.

I'll just continue to wrestle with this epic thread for tidbits of information.

A clarification: you get the .pdf the day it leaves the warehouse and you receive a shipment notification. So it's not about when you receive the hard copy (they can't guess that), it's when they send the hard copy (if you paid for fast shipping, it'll still arrive faster from the time you get the shipping notice). If you haven't gotten your shipping notice yet, you should soon.

Shisumo wrote:

I find the idea that changing one save from good to poor renders the entire class concept moot to be fascinating.

Such a phenomenon is usually accompanied by cheese and the world's smallest violin.

eh. Saves are ridiculously important as core central mechanics of a class.

It would be like the fighter going from full BAB to 3/4ths BAB.

I hope I get my shipping notice soon :)

Would love to look at the PDF.

Dragon78 wrote:

There is a heck a lot more stuff worth it in this book other then a single class:)

Agreed. A two star review based off a few pages is akin to giving the book a poor score because you didn't like the cover or a few pieces of art.

One can be concerned or even upset about some of the changes, but giving the book as a whole a poor review over one area is misleading. For those who haven't seen the book and are just getting bits and pieces in the thread, wait until you have it in your hands or it goes up in the PRD/SRD/Archives before discounting the whole.

Right. The Monk class revision is 6 pages. That review is effectively a review of 6 pages out of a 256-page book.

-Skeld

Jinete wrote:

The weapon finesse stamina entry seems a bit strange... it reduces your to hit penalty for using a shield :o

It almost looks like it should belong to another combat feat.

Nope! Weapon Finesse does not play well with shields. An often forgotten part of it is that you subtract the ACP of your shield from your to-hit rolls. A Mithril Shield usually fixes that, though.

I know about the ACP but I'm trying to think of ways for this trick to be actually useful. So far all I can think of is using a tower shield and still be able to attack. I was hoping for something less situational than this.