Pathfinder Player Companion: Bastards of Golarion (PFRPG)

Quandary wrote:

Well, I second that, and going on what Patrick wrote,

I think the product description is just misleading, since it does focus solely on 'race' and 'blood heritage'.
What Patrick described sounds like a cool concept, but nobody would expect that sort of thing based on the description as-is.

I agree. I'm already confused. First I thought this was about villains, then I'm told it's about half-breeds, now I'm told it's about misfits. I'm so confused! ;)

I should clarify that a fair amount of this book is still very much about half-elves and half-orcs (about half). The rest of the space in this book is shared between rules and info for other half-human characters and rules and info for characters whose backgrounds are the only things that tie them to the concept of being a bastard/outcast/"other."

Keep your eyes peeled for a preview blog of this Player Companion, since it seems like there's a lot of interest for this book!

Perhaps 'Misfits and Half-breeds of Golarion' would cover all the bases without conflating the two concepts?
I do think the description should add that it also includes (some) info on characters whose 'bastardry' has nothing to do with race/blood.

But is that confirmed that Changelings and Aasimar and other planetouched are included in this?
Or are Aasimar and Tieflings not included (for race-specific stuff) since they've already had their own treatment?

Odraude wrote:

Thirding Misfits of Golarion. It rolls of the tongue.

This book has nothing about flumphs.

Seems like a fine place for the flumphling PC race, a small sized aberration that is half-human/half-flumph! :)

Flumphing Awesome.

I do want to apologize for being an angry mountain dwarf in this thread. I moved to NW Montana from Florida to escape heat, and we have had record breaking temperatures lately.. and we don't have AC in our house. lol

That is my excuse, and I am sticking to it.

No worries, Mead. Happens to the best of us.

Will future products follow this naming convention?

Like a new companion on elves could be called Elitist Snobs of Golarion, and a book on dwarves Grumpy Stooges of Golarion. ;)

How about an alternate racial trait for dhampirs that grants dhampirs the human subtype, so they can be humanoid (dhampir, human)? That way those half-humans (whose undead side might also be a human vampire) can count as human for magic that only affects humans? It's always bugged me a bit that the dhampir doesn't get the human subtype, especially when some of the Pathfinder material says dhampirs don't breed true and their children are human. Half-elves and half-orcs both count as human for effects related to race, but, as written, dhampirs don't.

I just did a lookup on "Ultimate Races" (the originally intended name of the "Advanced Race Guide"). It appears that this book got renamed after less controversy than I have seen about the title "Bastards of Golarion". So my guess is that this book will ultimately get a new title. So -- does anyone have any good ideas for what the new title should be? Obviously "Advanced Golarion Bastard Guide" won't work.

I should clarify that a fair amount of this book is still very much about half-elves and half-orcs (about half).

Does that make the book a bastard? ;-)

Seriously I've been wanting this for years.

Will future products follow this naming convention?

Like a new companion on elves could be called Elitist Snobs of Golarion, and a book on dwarves Grumpy Stooges of Golarion. ;)

Technically that would be 'elitist snobs of Castrovel' :-)

My vote would have been "Half-Humans of Golarion", based on the original blurb. But based on the additional information we've learned about the book's contents in this thread, I think "Outcasts of Golarion" is probably best.

Not that I mind the original title. But if they do change it, those are my suggestions.

I believe it's too late to change it at this point.

My vote would have been "Half-Humans of Golarion", based on the original blurb. But based on the additional information we've learned about the book's contents in this thread, I think "Outcasts of Golarion" is probably best.

Not that I mind the original title. But if they do change it, those are my suggestions.

I would have liked Bastards of Golarion saved for a book about bandits, thieves guilds and tax collectors, but since this one is printed in the catalogue, I'm pretty sure it isn't changing.

[Edit : ninja'd - took a Gantt chart to the knee!]

Now, looking forward, can we have a book on the clergy of Cayden Cailean called Tosspots of Golarion please? :)

My vote would have been "Half-Humans of Golarion", based on the original blurb. But based on the additional information we've learned about the book's contents in this thread, I think "Outcasts of Golarion" is probably best.

Half-Humans would have been the logical name, although it is a bit clunky. Or maybe something like Blood of Two, since its slots into the blood of series.

I read the title as "Jerks of Golarion".

color me intrigued...

color me intrigued...

Agreed.

I believe it's too late to change it at this point.

Good. There's a limit to how much political correctness I can stomach. The title transmits the view of it's subjects that is held by mainstream society in Golarion. Not nice, but certainly effective in delivering information. Society can be like that about some things. The injustice of it is just more grist for the roleplaying mill. It's certainly not difficult to find historical, or current, examples that parallel this.

Jessica Price wrote:

I believe it's too late to change it at this point.

Good. There's a limit to how much political correctness I can stomach. The title transmits the view of it's subjects that is held by mainstream society in Golarion. Not nice, but certainly effective in delivering information. Society can be like that about some things. The injustice of it is just more grist for the roleplaying mill. It's certainly not difficult to find historical, or current, examples that parallel this.

To be clear, we aren't keeping it because we don't care about offending people (that's a separate conversation that's moot at this point); we're not changing it because it's too late to do so.

The title transmits the view of it's subjects that is held by mainstream society in Golarion. Not nice, but certainly effective in delivering information.

Society can be like that about some things. The injustice of it is just more grist for the roleplaying mill.

Patrick also implied that this will also cover Aasimar, which are supposed to be fawned upon by most Human society and whose parents may both be Human. How is the title conveying the view of Golarion society for those subjects?

Good. There's a limit to how much political correctness I can stomach. The title transmits the view of it's subjects that is held by mainstream society in Golarion. Not nice, but certainly effective in delivering information. Society can be like that about some things. The injustice of it is just more grist for the roleplaying mill. It's certainly not difficult to find historical, or current, examples that parallel this.

Just to be clear, most of us (not all) that do not dig the name, do not like it for lack of political correctness, but specifically because it fails to convey what the book is supposed to depict. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are generally NOT viewed as social outcasts/misfits, scandalous offspring of "superior" races, or unwanted children. Golarion society DOES NOT have any prejudices against them, socially or otherwise.

Good. There's a limit to how much political correctness I can stomach. The title transmits the view of it's subjects that is held by mainstream society in Golarion. Not nice, but certainly effective in delivering information. Society can be like that about some things. The injustice of it is just more grist for the roleplaying mill. It's certainly not difficult to find historical, or current, examples that parallel this.

Agreed, I liked the title the moment I saw it, and I like it even more with a better understanding of the content.

I just hope there are lot's of new Changeling goodies in it ;)

I could care less about the political correctness thing. Even the posters who have expressed concern on that regard (coming from a UK perspective where it may be a stronger insult) indicated that the term is acceptable in a "historic" context where it's meaning of illegitimate birth is objectively applied, i.e. why referring to homosexuals as "gay" is not insulting but using "gay" as a indeterminate insult IS perceived as inappropriate.

If the book was literally about bastards, illegitimate births, that is just an accurate description.
Using it outside that usage is stretching the definition without alot of justification,
and doesn't seem appropriate when the treatment of races like half-elves, half-orcs, aasimar, plane-touched, etc, can vary wildly.

Even if one accepted that the /majority/ of half-orcs in particular were reviled or illegitimate births in the standard sense, due to most of them being in Belkzen where that is the predominate case, majority does not translate to half-orcs 'in general' or 'as a whole'... Much less translate to all of the species being covered, some of which (Aasimar) are supposed to REVERED by Humans, often being legitimately born to both Human parents and while perceived as a unique case distinct from Humans that is presented in a POSITIVE light (at least from perspective of Human society, the Aasimar may be conflicted about the attention).

I just hope there are lot's of new Changeling goodies in it ;)

Amen!

R_Chance wrote:

Good. There's a limit to how much political correctness I can stomach. The title transmits the view of it's subjects that is held by mainstream society in Golarion. Not nice, but certainly effective in delivering information. Society can be like that about some things. The injustice of it is just more grist for the roleplaying mill. It's certainly not difficult to find historical, or current, examples that parallel this.

Just to be clear, most of us (not all) that do not dig the name, do not like it for lack of political correctness, but specifically because it fails to convey what the book is supposed to depict. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are generally NOT viewed as social outcasts/misfits, scandalous offspring of "superior" races, or unwanted children. Golarion society DOES NOT have any prejudices against them, socially or otherwise.

\

Half elves maybe, though most of the time half orcs are treated only marginally better than tieflings.

Half elves maybe, though most of the time half orcs are treated only marginally better than tieflings.

Not according to the Inner Sea World Guide, which I "spoilered" above. It indicates the in most of the world, Half-Orcs are both accepted and respected just fine by most individuals and races, generally seen as exemplifying some of the best traits of Orcs ad Humans. They do not, generally, have their own cities, but they adapt very easily to other cultures and are not viewed as outsiders or mistrusted just because they are Half-Orcs.

Can you show me where it is indicated otherwise, because I don't see it, and I think people are somehow trying to push their own game style when it doesn't actually exist in the setting itself?

Even if one accepted that the /majority/ of half-orcs in particular were reviled or illegitimate births in the standard sense, due to most of them being in Belkzen where that is the predominate case, majority does not translate to half-orcs 'in general' or 'as a whole'...

I'm really hoping this book offers more than a retread of what's come before and offers options for half-orc origins that aren't rooted in tragedy or, in the ISWG's words, "depravity". Less Orcs of Golarion, more of the nuanced bits from the half-orc entry int the ARG plz.

Specifically:

Even more rarely, certain human cultures come to embrace half-orcs for their strength. There are stories of places where people see half-orc children as a blessing and seek out half-orc or orc lovers. In these cultures, half-orcs lead lives not much different from full-blooded humans.

I'd love support for that origin possibility in Golarion.

Edit-One of the most frustrating things about the setting is that what feels like the perfect culture for half-orcs to be able to pull from has been made one of the hardest to have them come from, the Shoanti. Even if it takes a bit of subtle retconning, anything that made that ARG origin possible with any Shoanti Quah would be a godsend.

Odraude wrote:

Half elves maybe, though most of the time half orcs are treated only marginally better than tieflings.

Not according to the Inner Sea World Guide, which I "spoilered" above. It indicates the in most of the world, Half-Orcs are both accepted and respected just fine by most individuals and races, generally seen as exemplifying some of the best traits of Orcs ad Humans. They do not, generally, have their own cities, but they adapt very easily to other cultures and are not viewed as outsiders or mistrusted just because they are Half-Orcs.

Can you show me where it is indicated otherwise, because I don't see it, and I think people are somehow trying to push their own game style when it doesn't actually exist in the setting itself?

** spoiler omitted **

Orcs of Golarion has an entire section on half orcs and how they tend to be horribly mistreated by orcs and simply poorly by non-orc civilizations.

So no, I'm not trying to "push my own game style" on the setting. It's there, perhaps not as severe as in other settings, and perhaps not as severe as tieflings have it. But it's there.

I think you are taking those out of context. Orcs of Golarion is talking about those Half-Orcs that come about when the human parent was capture and enslaved by Orcs, and then escapes. Literally a bastard, but not a common occurrence so much these days. It's also much more from the PoV of from the Orcs, than how mot people view Half-Orcs. There are some places where this happens still, specifically those places where the CE Orcs are still an active and direct threat, but this is not the norm for the rest of the world. This is true for almost all races somewhere, Haflings in Cheliax, Humans in Irrisen, etc. . . That doesn't mean that the common view is that Halfings or Humans are bastards/outcasts/misfits/etc. . . in general

Your second excerpt is talking about the past, and how they have since made it into a sort of cultural aspect, or mark of pride.

I just did a lookup on "Ultimate Races" (the originally intended name of the "Advanced Race Guide"). It appears that this book got renamed after less controversy than I have seen about the title "Bastards of Golarion". So my guess is that this book will ultimately get a new title. So -- does anyone have any good ideas for what the new title should be? Obviously "Advanced Golarion Bastard Guide" won't work.

It is clear that the only sensible option would be Ultimate Bastards.

R_Chance wrote:

Good. There's a limit to how much political correctness I can stomach. The title transmits the view of it's subjects that is held by mainstream society in Golarion. Not nice, but certainly effective in delivering information. Society can be like that about some things. The injustice of it is just more grist for the roleplaying mill. It's certainly not difficult to find historical, or current, examples that parallel this.

Just to be clear, most of us (not all) that do not dig the name, do not like it for lack of political correctness, but specifically because it fails to convey what the book is supposed to depict. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are generally NOT viewed as social outcasts/misfits, scandalous offspring of "superior" races, or unwanted children. Golarion society DOES NOT have any prejudices against them, socially or otherwise.

Really? If you go up thread that is basically what many have said about them. Now, let's be clear, this is not how I see them. This is apparently how society, in Golarion as a whole or in large part, sees them. The devs weren't trying to upset you with the title. I think, and that's imo, they were conveying information with that title. To whit:

Heine Stick wrote:

...being a half-breed in Golarion does come with a lot of social baggage.

This.

Really? If you go up thread that is basically what many have said about them. Now, let's be clear, this is not how I see them. This is apparently how society, in Golarion as a whole or in large part, sees them. The devs weren't trying to upset you with the title. I think, and that's imo, they were conveying information with that title.

It doesn't upset me, really. I just do not think it conveys the information of the subject matter well. Otherwise I find it funny. As a personal preference, I'd also rally rather reserve the name for a book about jerks of Golarion. But, that being said, I think I've argued it enough already. :)

I just wanted to drop in and let everyone know definitively that the name of the book is the name of the book, and it won't be changing at this point. We appreciate the comments and alternative points of view, but the sheer mechanics of how books are made, solicited, and sold essentially prohibits a change from being made at this point.

I can assure everyone that the book will approach its subjects from numerous points of view, and that most of the folks who have posted their hopes for the book will likely be pleased by some of the points of view presented in the book. These races have often received short shrift in the past (and even here they need to share the spotlight), and we're going to do the best we can to make sure we do justice to them.

Um...I hope that this outpouring of people's opinion on the title of the book....does not in the future prevent Pazio from using other words like brothel...or prostitue.

While I get Pazio should be sensitive to their customers...I just hope they don't correct too far in the other direction...if you know what I mean.

For instance in the APG the trait was Calistrian Prostitue...there was one thread in which I remember a handful if that of people complaining about it's use...now in the UC we have Calistrian Courtsean...and brothels became Dance Halls.

One of the...reasons I did not like WotC 4th ed FR was that they kiddiefied the world too much.

Um...I hope that this outpouring of people's opinion on the title of the book....does not in the future prevent Pazio from using other words like brothel...or prostitue.

While I get Pazio should be sensitive to their customers...I just hope they don't correct too far in the other direction...if you know what I mean.

For instance in the APG the trait was Calistrian Prostitue...there was one thread in which I remember a handful if that of people complaining about it's use...now in the UC we have Calistrian Courtsean...and brothels became Dance Halls.

One of the...reasons I did not like WotC 4th ed FR was that they kiddiefied the world too much.

As has been mentioned above, the problem that most people seemed to have with the name (myself included) was that it's a) not an accurate use of the word Bastard, and b) can be (due to the inaccuracy) a little confusing to start with. It's not really an issue with it being offensive or inappropriate.

I, along with my friends who I spoke with about it, saw the name and immediately thought "Oh cool, a book about being the anti-heroes and hardcases". I was expecting to hear that it was going to be related to building characters running the whole gamut from Locke Lamora (from Scott Lynch's The Lies of Lock Lamora) to D (from Vampire Hunter D). We were all pretty surprised to see that it's in fact focused on half-breeds (the fact that D is a dhampir, though in Bloodlust he's referred to as a Dunpeal, is irrelevant to this, we're talking about character type rather than specific character details).

Um...I hope that this outpouring of people's opinion on the title of the book....does not in the future prevent Pazio from using other words like brothel...or prostitue.

While I get Pazio should be sensitive to their customers...I just hope they don't correct too far in the other direction...if you know what I mean.

For instance in the APG the trait was Calistrian Prostitue...there was one thread in which I remember a handful if that of people complaining about it's use...now in the UC we have Calistrian Courtsean...and brothels became Dance Halls.

One of the...reasons I did not like WotC 4th ed FR was that they kiddiefied the world too much.

There is a difference between what you put on the cover and what you put inside. Mostly because a cover has to create its own context. Internal text is contextualised.

I'm not really eager to own 'Whores of Golarion' as a misleading but attention-grabbing title for a book on Calistria. 'Half-Ogres of Golarion' may well have some disturbing content and I am fine with that but calling it 'Incest-Murder-Rapists of Golarion' is not such a cool idea.

I'm going to state again that this element of the title is an international issue. Bastard is seen as a much stronger slur in the UK.
If Paizo decided to make a book about canine-breeding programmes then I doubt they would call it B%~&*es of Golarion...

Sadly, Jess and Erik have already stated that this is a moot point but I hope they take on board such concerns.
It wouldn't have taken much time to solicit the opinion of a few international Paizonautss (Pett, for example) and if this book had been released with a different title I doubt this thread would have been full of people suggesting that Bastards of Golarion would make a much better name.

Bastard is a term of endearment in Australia, except when we are talking about Poms ;-) That is probably why British people get so upset with the word.

It's not offensive in the least, I could call my dad a silly old bastard, he wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Bugger isn't an offensive word either.

Bastard is a term of endearment in Australia, except when we are talking about Poms ;-) That is probably why British people get so upset with the word.

It's not offensive in the least, I could call my dad a silly old bastard, he wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Bugger isn't an offensive word either.

Yeah, I can't even count the number of times my father and I must have called each other bastards and worse during our many Unreal Tournament matches when I was back in school. It did used to annoy my mother a lot, but I think that's because she's first generation Australian, my grandparents moved over from England not long before she was born. So she had a very English upbringing.

I've always found it funny how differently we use certain words compared to the Brits. the C bomb (as it's generally referred amongst people I know) is considered the height of offensiveness here. But amongst my British friends, and on British entertainment, it feels like a much more harmless word. It's still not a particularly nice word (I don't so much find it offensive as I find the actual sound of it to be unpleasant), but it seems to be much more accepted. Or maybe that's just because I watch a lot of Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr, and hang out with foul mouthed brits. Who knows...

While I get Pazio should be sensitive to their customers...I just hope they don't correct too far in the other direction...if you know what I mean.

For instance in the APG the trait was Calistrian Prostitue...there was one thread in which I remember a handful if that of people complaining about it's use...now in the UC we have Calistrian Courtsean...and brothels became Dance Halls.

Snippage as this is what I wanted to hit.

I actually hope we do keep the core books cleaner (dance halls, courtseans) while the world books are more 'mature'.

I don't get the kerfluffle. It's a book about uniquely unpleasant beings in the setting of Golarion. The title is self explanatory: "Bastards of Golarion". No one who speaks modern American English could possibly mistake it for anything else, and Paizo knew that.

yeah. blarg, not feeling this one at all...

a) half-elves and half-orcs get half a book each? ha ha ha half...
b) I am really tired of 'pretty' half-elves and 'ugly' half-orcs, yarck

$5 says there won't be any, uh, let's call them 'Chelaxian' half-orcs in this book. Ditto for 'mwangi' half-elves.

Here's what I do

1. Kill all the half-elves. Whatever, you want the pointy ears? Play an elf.
2. I call half-orcs 'orcs'. I call orcs 'deep orcs'. Because jaegermonsters are cool, and nobody wants actual belkzeners around. What? There's already an elf/dark elf thing, and a dwarf/icky dwarf thing, I just went there with orcs. It was easy, even.

Heck, you know what? Make an 'elves and orcs' of golarion book! That actually sounds cooler than this bastard thing.

The real question I hope they answer in this book: If elves and orcs are both genetically compatible to breed with humans, then how come you never see elf/orc half breeds without a human involved?

The real question I hope they answer in this book: If elves and orcs are both genetically compatible to breed with humans, then how come you never see elf/orc half breeds without a human involved?

Orcs have taste.

The real question I hope they answer in this book: If elves and orcs are both genetically compatible to breed with humans, then how come you never see elf/orc half breeds without a human involved?

My guess is it's a Tolkienism. In his world (which D&D borrowed extensively from, and Pathfinder carries over as a legacy) orcs were just corrupted elves. In that vein, a child of an elf and an orc may likely be a full blooded version of either, depending on how strong the corruption is. The non-Tolkien version is that the racial hatred between them probably prevents any child of such a union from growing up.

Fantasy genetics aside, is there any example in nature where critter x and critter y can produce offspring, critter y and critter Z can too, but critter X and Z can't?

I wonder if such an erc or olf would 'pop out' a drow (excluding Mikaze's nice orcs, most orcs of Golarion worship the rough beast.)

Fantasy genetics aside, is there any example in nature where critter x and critter y can produce offspring, critter y and critter Z can too, but critter X and Z can't?

Yes, you can breed lions with tigers and leopards, but a tiger-leopard hybrid has never been bred (there were some attempts but the cubs were all stillborn).

It's a book about uniquely unpleasant beings in the setting of Golarion.

Half-elves are uniquely unpleasant? Have you seen the half-elf in the Races chapter of the CRB (pg. 24)? You look at her and think, "Man, what a bastard!"?

Because this book is about her.

PathfinderDad wrote:

It's a book about uniquely unpleasant beings in the setting of Golarion.

Half-elves are uniquely unpleasant? Have you seen the half-elf in the Races chapter of the CRB (pg. 24)? You look at her and think, "Man, what a bastard!"? Because this book is about her.

And as Patrick indicated, it is also about Aasimar, which are nearly worshipped by humans for their other-wordly pleasantness.

The real question I hope they answer in this book: If elves and orcs are both genetically compatible to breed with humans, then how come you never see elf/orc half breeds without a human involved?

Maybe that's where humans came from in the first place, a elf/orc pairing...