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Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity

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Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity
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Greatest Good!

You don’t have to be a holy warrior to be a true hero. Join in the fight against evil and be a paragon of righteousness as a character of any class with Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity. Arm yourself with a host of new options specifically designed for good-aligned characters—like new fighting techniques striking the balance between capture and execution, life-fostering magic, rules for the redemption of evil characters, and morally challenging alignment-changing alchemy. With new insights into what it means to play good-aligned hardliners and how to get paid for being a good guy, deal with evil companions, redeem villains, and handle all those goblin babies, this book will change the way you think about playing honorable characters. Also, learn more about some of the greatest do-gooders and virtuous organizations on Golarion—with a focus on nonreligious groups, since the fight between good and evil doesn’t have to unfold entirely in the arena of faith. Join the ranks of the just with Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity! Inside this book, you’ll find:

  • Detailed discussion on what it means to play a character of each of the three good alignments, including ideas for character generation and specific challenges of these alignments.
  • A look into good-aligned races, good-aligned homelands, and good-aligned organizations for your character, as well as some of the challenges of being good and what happens when good characters come from bad places.
  • A method for redeeming evil characters who your adventuring party encounters during the campaign.
  • New good-based feats, magical weapons and gear, rage powers, rogue talents, subdomains, and more!

This Pathfinder Player Companion is intended for use with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, but can easily be incorporated into any fantasy world.

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-511-2

Other Resources: This product is also available on the following platforms:

Hero Lab Online
Fantasy Grounds Virtual Tabletop
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Shallow Treatment, with a Handful of Good Options

3/5 —

Champions of Purity is a sort of sequel to the earlier [/i]Faiths of Purity[/i]. Whereas the previous book was primarily about the gods and their devotees (clerics and paladins), Champions of Purity has a broader theme: characters of good alignment generally. Since PCs of any class can be on the side of good, a book designed for those characters makes sense. But although there are certainly some useful class options here and there, the book as a whole adopts the scattergun approach of throwing a lot of stuff out there and seeing what sticks. Written mostly by a crop of freelancers, the book is a loose collection of shallow two-page entries on vaguely-related topics. It doesn't really have much in the way of depth, but that seems to be the norm for many of the books in the Player Companion line.

Still, to give credit where it's due, we have to admire the great cover of Seelah cutting through a horde of monsters. The inside front cover is a table of good-aligned deities in Golarion that includes the usual suspects from the Core Rulebook along with some that are lesser-known, including several from the Asian-themed Dragon Empires. The inside back cover does an odd thing and introduces a new feat, "Summon Good Monster," that allows good-aligned spellcasters to substitute a good-aligned creature from the accompanying table in place of what the spell would normally allow, and to give them Diehard to boot. Not too shabby!

The book proper starts with a two-page introduction, "Why Be Good?", that talks about some more specific motivations for PCs, like freedom, honor, justice, mercy, order, and more. It then goes on to give some suggestions as to where characters with those goals might hail from geographically.

Next, each of the three good alignments (Lawful Good, Neutral Good, and Chaotic Good) are discussed in a separate two-page entry which is divided into Philosophies (Lawful Good PCs might be seen as Crusaders or Guardians, for example, while Neutral Good PCs might be seen as Mediators or Redeemers), Advantages & Challenges (in terms of role-playing), Opportunities & Allies (ways those PCs might fit into Golarion specifically), and finally Traits (three new ones each). One of the criticisms I have of the book is that its treatment of alignment issues only barely skims the surface: there's no mention, for example, of how hard it is to play a truly good character when the lowest common denominator is lazy players with a "kill things and take their stuff" mentality. Characters of good alignment face hard decisions and restrictions that other alignments don't, and this can create problems for groups. These are some of the issues that would be worth discussing.

The remaining two-page sections consist of the following:

"Paragons of Virtue" has a line or two on good-aligned races (Aasimars, Catfolk, Elves, and Samsarans), good-aligned organisations (like knightly orders), and good-aligned homelands (like Andoran), but it's a very cursory treatment and of very little use to those familiar with Golarion. Four new traits are included.

"Good Characters in Bad Situations" raises the classic "what do you do with goblin babies" quandary and then suggests (in a sentence or two each) some "bad places" that good characters could come from. Again, the book has identified an interesting issue but has a shallow and wishy-washy treatment of it. Don't look for any deep insights into alignment and RPGs here. (I do love the artwork of the samurai with the goblin babies!)

"Heavenly Virtues" presents one new feat called "Virtuous Creed" that has different effects depending on which specific virtue the PC identifies with (such as humility, courage, freedom, etc.). In a way, it's like six feats in one, which is interesting, but the different virtues have very different power levels in a mechanical sense.

"Redemption" presents a rules sub-system for tracking an evil creature's progress towards becoming good, along with a variety of penances they can do to help atone. I'm skeptical of these little sub-systems that I know will never be referenced again or expanded upon. This one looks a bit rough, but I guess it does add some content and perhaps guidance to a GM dealing with the issue. I wouldn't follow it too strictly, however.

"Divine Influence" introduces seven new clerical subdomains: Cooperation, Dragon, Imagination, Judgment, Redemption, Revelation, and Revelry. Each subdomain replaces the domain spells and granted power of a specific Core Rulebook domain. It looks like there are some good options.

"Fighting the Good Fight" is a miscellany: a new barbarian rage power (Celestial Totem), two new inquisitor inquisitions (Final Rest and Recovery), six new feats (including one very useful one to keep you from accidentally killing enemies outright and a silly one that adds a single point of damage when you hit with a good-aligned weapon), and a sidebar on subduing and binding opponents (no new rules, but it's useful to have the material all in one place).

"Grace and Guile" has a handful of new alchemist discoveries, a couple of bardic masterpieces, and three new rogue talents. The book really is trying to have something for everyone! The alchemist discoveries seem reasonable, one of the bardic masterpieces seems crazily overpowered (blinding and deafening, or even stunning, all evil creatures that hear the performance and fail a save), and I really like the rogue talent Sacrifice Self that allows a rogue to ignore the effects of their evasion ability to help shield an ally from harm.

"Sublime Spellcraft" has a couple of new summoner evolutions (I wouldn't touch summoners with a ten-foot-pole, so I have no opinion of these), three new witch patrons (which are apparently just bland lists of replacement spells), a few new hexes, and two new wizard arcane discoveries. I mostly liked what I saw here.

"Spells of the Just" includes ten new spells, most of which are for both divine and arcane spellcasters. I really liked the little story in the sidebar about how these spells came to be known, and I wish there were more attempts like this to explain the appearance of new spells and magic items.

"Tools for Good" introduces several new magic items. Although damned expensive, I really liked the Devil's Key (allowing you to follow an outsider to its home plane to kill it for good) and the Equalizer Shield (creating an antimagic field to stymie those pesky spellcasters!).

I think books like this have little enduring value because there's hardly any interesting setting lore or discussion, and readers will just cherry-pick a new spell or class option from an online database. Buy this one if you need to for PFS, but otherwise you can safely give it a pass.

Some interesting parts, but mostly uninspiring

3/5 —

I liked the first half, which explored the different ways to support the cause of Good, but I thought it lacked depth and I would have welcomed more discussion and examples of gameplay or stories in the campaign world for context. e.g. the illustration of Valeros in the Neutral Good section helped me understand what the writers were trying to convey. I found the second half less interesting, but those who enjoy technical details may find it useful.

My main gripe is that I expected a focus on Champions and the stuff that champions do, but I felt like I was reading the guide for Men-at-Arms or Sergeants for Purity.

Useful for many classes, but not necessarily all good characters

4/5 —

Champions of Purity will be useful for some good characters, and I think this depends less on the character’s class and more on the character concept. If you are creating a character that is built around his or her goodness – call it good with a capital “G” – I think there’s a fair amount of useful material here, no matter what class your character is. If not, you will probably pass over most of the character options for ones in other sources that provide more mechanical benefit or highlight other aspects of the character’s personality, talents, and backstory. There’s also a fair amount of space devoted to collecting information found in other sourcebooks (e.g., good-aligned deities, races, organizations, homelands, nonlethal weapons, spells with the good descriptor).

I am giving it 4 stars because if you are picking this up specifically to help you build characters which are "actively" rather than "passively" good, I think it works well.

See my full review at my blog Delver's Diary here.

Worth every penny

4/5 —

Champions of Purity is a good quality product with large collection of rules options for most classes along with a range of role playing advice for anyone interested in a playing a Good character.

Champions of Purity starts with an examination of good, trying to answer the general question of “Why to be good?” and then focusing in each of the three alignments individually. It provides generalized motivations for any sort of good character along with locations where characters with each motivation might originate. This provides a nice connection to Golarion in a book that is relatively light on setting details. The different alignment focuses provide examples of different types of philosophies that characters of a given alignment may fall into, along with some of the pros and cons of playing each good alignment. Golarion specific information about opportunities and allies that each alignment may be involved with round out the sections. The only concerns I have with these sections are the listing of the different philosophies, and with the included traits. I worry that players reading these, especially if they’re new players, may see the philosophy suggestions as more rigid limitations rather than just possible ways for characters of each alignment to be portrayed. The traits in each section are listed as complementing a given alignment, but having them listed in a section devoted to that alignment gives the impression that they’re only for that alignment.

The next section is entitled Paragons of Virtue and covers a range of setting information to make a completely Good character, what race to play, organizations to be a part of, and where to be from. Generally this is presented well though I was surprised that none of the good churches were mentioned under the good aligned organizations. The inclusion of countries in Tian Xia as potential character origins was nice, as Tian Xia is often underrepresented in most products. There’s also a list of potential Prestige Classes for good characters, which I appreciated because it’s often hard for players to know about what classes are out there, as they show up in a variety of products. One minor complaint I did have here was that in one of this sections traits they mention an empyreal lord; it seems like there should have been an explanation somewhere of what an empyreal lord is, as players may not know this.

This is followed by Good Characters in Bad Situations, which examines moral quandaries that good players may find themselves in, and shows how different good characters may react to the same situation in different ways. This is quite well done as it covers situations that may come up during gameplay, though a greater list of actual evil acts would have been nice. The list of how good characters fit within “evil” nations is nice, but all the different lists of where good characters come from makes me think that perhaps they all should have been together. It also seems like it could have been a good place to cover how good characters deal with worshiping neutral (or even evil) deities.

The center spread in Champions of Purity is devoted to Heavenly Virtues, creeds for players to live by that provide benefits when the associated feat is taken. All of the benefits seem to be reasonably balanced, but the creeds will require some DM work to keep track of, as breaking a creed means the character loses the benefit of the feat. Some creeds may not be appropriate in all campaigns as the situations they reference may not be present, making them impossible to violate. The art on these two pages is great, with a stained glass style that really works with the virtue theme. On the topic of virtues, I’m starting to feel like Virtue is becoming a bit of an overloaded term, now it may be because I’m running Rise of the Runelords where they come up a bit, but perhaps a different term should have been used.

Redemption is covered next, with a rules framework for an evil character to be turned from the dark side. It seems like a good system to me, though it will require a large amount of DM tracking; a lot of that could probably be avoided by combining it with in game story events. It does include rules for one or more characters helping a character seeking redemption, but I feel that some examination of how a PC could help an NPC seek redemption in a more role playing sense would have been good (and potentially more frequently useful).

The remaining sections of the book are a collection of character options, firstly separated up into Divine, Combat, Skilled, and Arcane characters, and then followed by new spells and items. The divine portion provides details of all the good deities which complements the inside front cover where all the deity’s Domains, Favored Weapons and the like are listed. A number of new subdomains are presented, with Cooperation and Redemption having the most interesting powers. For combat focused characters there are new rage powers and inquisitions, as well as a handful of new feats. There’s also a sidebar on taking enemies alive, going over the rules and options relating to subdual attacks and binding opponents. Some coverage of how to bind someone during a grapple and maybe a feat to go along with it would have been good fit here. For skill based characters there are new alchemical discoveries, masterpieces, and rogue talents, to go with a sidebar on character types for less straight forward good characters. The most interesting new options here are a couple of discoveries that can forcibly change the alignment of the imbiber. Included in the descriptions are the moralistic questions that arise from forcing an alignment change on someone. In the Sublime Spellcasting section arcane casters are the focus, with summoners getting new evolutions, witches getting new patrons and hexes, and wizards getting new arcane discoveries. The mechanics of the Celestial Appearance evolution are interesting, where it’s one 3-point evolution with an increasing point cost if you want to do more with it, so it can be up to a 7-point evolution if you so desire. Based on its name and effect I can see a devil/demon/etc. version showing up somewhere along the line.

In Spells of the Just there are 10 new spells, all with the good type, and a sidebar detailing a scroll that contains them all. I particularly like the Angelic Aspect chain of spells, and Burst of Radiance. For magic items there are a couple of new weapon special abilities and then 9 new magic items (which are said to be wondrous items, when only 2 of them are wondrous items). Surprisingly most of the items are new magic weapons or armor, with only 2 being not combat related. The neatest one is probably the Mantle of the Protector, a way to share some of a character’s armor bonuses. My only concern with all this new rule content is that a lot of it makes players very good at killing Evil things, which may make it on the high end of the power scale in campaigns with few neutral opponents. For instance I can see this material having a big draw in the upcoming Wrath of the Righteous AP.

The art in Champions of Purity is top notch, with good portraits of most of the iconics and a few others; I especially like the ones of Feiya and Kyra. The cover is also very good; however the two other larger pieces in the product are not really to my liking. On the topic of graphic design the font used on the cover and as the section headers is truly awful, I understand that its look probably matches the content of the book is some fashion but this is a situation where function is more important than form.

Champions of Purity is a great product which adds to the quality of the Player Companion line. There’s lots of interesting material here both for those looking for roleplaying ideas and suggestions and those looking for new mechanical tools to play with. A similar book for the neutral alignments would be good, as I find it harder to player neutral characters than good, though it may be hard to find as much neutral specific rules material as there’s fewer obvious things to build off of and because the core rules are written in a rather neutrally aligned way already.

4/5 —

I agree with almost everything that the previous poster mentioned (except the 3E material). There are areas I wish they had gone more in depth or expanded upon a topic, but over all, a very good book. Unlike many of the other player's guide books, this one does seem to offer options for basically everyone, rather than focus on a handfull of classes. The amount of mechanics in this book is great, and shows that it doesn't detract from the fluff material. Not too much of it is terribly etting specific, either.

The art is pretty good, particularly the cover and the center fold, while most of the other art is generally just various iconics is some sort of pose, but not really relvant to the topics.

The magic items are ok, not great. Nothing really jumps out, with a lot of it at the higher GP end.

The spells mostly look nice. I'm not really sure, (yes I know that Alchemists are their new baby and all) that the Alchemist's materail either needed to be in this book or was really thought out that well. Even at 12th+ level, a single save that can rob some clases of all class features (and can argueably require an Atonement even if it's a temp thing) probably needs to be errata'd a lot or out.

I'm very happy that Roles where not included in this book. Don't care for them. The Virtues look good, though I wish there there where more, or perhaps some of them would be switched out. I'm sad to see that they require a Feat to utilize, as I'm not sure most of them really are worth a Feat, and what's worse the main classes that the flavor really fits are generally the ones that are totally Feat-starved. About the same power level as the Knightly Traits in Knights of the Inner Sea, except in general even more situational, that I'm not really sure they are really worth a Trait. Other than that, they are great and look interesting.

All in all, a great and fun book. I would love to see more books like this, both in the amount of material presented as well as focusing on Good, heroic characters and play. I'd definetly buy a Champions of Purity 2 and 3, or a similar book that is not setting specific, but along the same lines.

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Silver Crusade

Approx. 100 days left.

After tonight's session, want this even more now.

I would say more then a 100 days left since the books useally come out mid to late time frame in the month.
Bardess wrote:
+1 for mid-level celestials (maybe this is the right moment to pathfinderize 2E's Agathinons)

Sadly, Ursinals, Lupinals, etc, are WOTC property, and I don't know how pathfinder could alter them enough to not infringe. It's sad too, when I created a character for PFS I wanted to recreate my 2E character who was raised by an Ursinal, but I had to substitute a androsphinx. It's just not the same.

Grand Lodge

So... price is going up?
Dark Archive

THIS blog post from Nov 2 explains the price increase for some of the product lines.
Liberty's Edge
Manuelexar wrote:
So... price is going up?

Mona had a blog post about it. The margins have been getting smaller for awhile and they have yet to increase price. Honestly I'm surprised they hadn't been raised before.

*Ninja'd
Silver Crusade

Approx. 90 days left.

Noticed that with the bumpback, it's no longer going to be hitting simultaneously with Chronicles of the Righteous.

On the downside, the two books that complete each other wo't be released together.

On the upside, it's going to draw out the sweetness that much longer. :)

Still chomping at the bit to grab both of these books!
Dark Archive

You and me both mate. I'm more excited about 2013 than I've been about any other Paizo year.
The Exchange
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Goblin babies eh? What happens in Riddleport stays in Riddleport.

Goblins don't have babies, they just have tiny goblins.
Silver Crusade

looks at the coming releases in the queue

Hope this one can hang onto the March spot, even if it means doubling up with the Dungeoneering book! :)

Approx. 60-70? days left!
Silver Crusade
1 person marked this as a favorite.

RELEASING NEXT MONT-d'oh!

So close, yet so far away.[/longingeyes]
Webstore Gninja Minion
2 people marked this as a favorite.

Updated product with final cover image and description!

Also, Seelah on the cover! *squee*
Silver Crusade

Badass! Smite trails are going to be standard for my paladins from now on. Also, are those lemures?

"Rage powers"
:D :D :D

has been very excited about this book, even moreso now

Good aligned rage powers, rouge talents, and subdomains!

Hopefully sorcerers will get some love.
Contributor
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Liz Courts wrote:

Updated product with final cover image and description!

Also, Seelah on the cover! *squee*

And where are the authors' names, young lady? :) It's one of the few Paizo credits I have.

Silver Crusade
Christina Stiles wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:

Updated product with final cover image and description!

Also, Seelah on the cover! *squee*

And where are the authors' names, young lady? :) It's one of the few Paizo credits I have.

Pre-emptive "Thank You" for the contents of this book! :)

Contributor
2 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh. My. God.

Page 2 of this thread starts off with the most terrible, anti-Champion of Good discussion I have ever seen (slaughtering babies and kittens), turns into absolute madness when the chatter about squid-faced agathions starts, and then devolves into Mikaze crying to the heavens in thanks for all of the gifts he's been begging Paizo for in what amounts to at least 1/3 of my time as a Paizo forums poster.

This thread is absolutely delightful!

Now, on-topic, I'm hoping this book pans out well. I know the Paizo team knows how to make repulsive evil, but can they handle righteousness without it becoming too flawless? That, ultimately, was my biggest problem with the Book of Exalted Deeds; it had no grit to it.

Are we there yet?
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

Keep an eye out later in the year for our book on Crusaders, which will be all about the religious agendas of a variety of Golarion's deities and how to play faithful characters of all classes.

You had me at religion! D:

Sovereign Court
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Mikaze wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What's more important, stopping the evil Lich or spending years trying to nurture Goblin babies to good-alignment? Or atleast not-evil?

First I'd be searching for a reliable organization that could take care of them, like say a church of any good deity deserving of the alignment. If for some reason no such organization or support network can be found, I retire my character and bring in a new one to join the fight.

It's not an either-or between Save The World and Don't Murder Babies. When faced with two horrifically evil choices, Good either finds or makes a third option. Good doesn't take the convenient way out.

Quote:

What happens when, despite your characters best efforts, a goblin baby does turn irreparably evil? Do you slay this creature you've spent so much time caring for?

I find a new GM that doesn't stick to the Always Chaotic Evil trope as gospel, one in whose game I could actually enjoy playing a genuine good character.

Interesting to find shades-of-grey-Mikaze only demands shades of grey for goblins and orcs.

Good, however, must be absolute.

Everything is compromised, all situations are unclear, morality is negotiated, perspective is subjective and sometimes you explode the volcano to destroy the helldragon even though you did leave a CN kobold spy tied-up on level 2.

Good might seek a way, but sometimes good sucks it up and accepts it has crosses to bear.

Hard choices are there for Good to make the best of, not to sidestep.

"Hey, Pharasma, why am I stuck in the Boneyard? I was a loyal serveant of Iomedae!"
"No, Paladin. You were a loyal serveant to your own navel. You abandoned her righteous crusade against the beasts of the worldwound in order to raise children. Do you not understand how many true, just and pure paladins have forsaken the pleasures of motherhood in order to protect the world from evil?"
"I was protecting them from sin, turning them to a world of virtue and righteousness."
"While your brothers and sisters in-arms fell to the demons for want of a strong shield beside them to turn aside the blow; a strong mind to guide them from the creatures temptation and insinuation; a strong arm to lift them from the mire.
Creation grants that nearly all can raise a child in their own image, or foster others as you did, but only a few can seize the hard path of virtue Iomedae demands. Your narcissism was your undoing, human."
"But they were goblin babies, it's different!"
"Only to you."
Silver Crusade
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Absolute Good is a prerequisite for the Beams of Good feat, remember? You can't shoot pure altruism from your eye sockets if you don't raise at least one orphanage of goblin babies.

As for the whole "save the world" thing, leave that to our cynical CN mercenaries. At the end of the day, while LG Orc Redeemer Paladins are busy arguing with their superiors whether sealing the Worldwound takes precedence over converting lil' Licktoads to Iomedeanism, it's us Silver Sables and Deadpools who get to save the world. Again. With no thanks.
Liberty's Edge
1 person marked this as a favorite.
GeraintElberion wrote:

"Hey, Pharasma, why am I stuck in the Boneyard? I was a loyal serveant of Iomedae!"

"No, Paladin. You were a loyal serveant to your own navel. You abandoned her righteous crusade against the beasts of the worldwound in order to raise children. Do you not understand how many true, just and pure paladins have forsaken the pleasures of motherhood in order to protect the world from evil?"
"I was protecting them from sin, turning them to a world of virtue and righteousness."
"While your brothers and sisters in-arms fell to the demons for want of a strong shield beside them to turn aside the blow; a strong mind to guide them from the creatures temptation and insinuation; a strong arm to lift them from the mire.
Creation grants that nearly all can raise a child in their own image, or foster others as you did, but only a few can seize the hard path of virtue Iomedae demands. Your narcissism was your undoing, human."
"But they were goblin babies, it's different!"
"Only to you."

When I consider how my light is spent

Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies: "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts: who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly; thousands at his bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait."
Sovereign Court
Shisumo wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

"Hey, Pharasma, why am I stuck in the Boneyard? I was a loyal serveant of Iomedae!"

"No, Paladin. You were a loyal serveant to your own navel. You abandoned her righteous crusade against the beasts of the worldwound in order to raise children. Do you not understand how many true, just and pure paladins have forsaken the pleasures of motherhood in order to protect the world from evil?"
"I was protecting them from sin, turning them to a world of virtue and righteousness."
"While your brothers and sisters in-arms fell to the demons for want of a strong shield beside them to turn aside the blow; a strong mind to guide them from the creatures temptation and insinuation; a strong arm to lift them from the mire.
Creation grants that nearly all can raise a child in their own image, or foster others as you did, but only a few can seize the hard path of virtue Iomedae demands. Your narcissism was your undoing, human."
"But they were goblin babies, it's different!"
"Only to you."

When I consider how my light is spent

Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest he returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies: "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts: who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly; thousands at his bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest:
They also serve who only stand and wait."

Yep, I am totally cool with blind paladins retiring to raise babies, or write Paradise Lost.

More to the point, Iomedae ain't Milton's Puritan idea of the Christian God and this isn't a world of monotheism. There are no all-powerful gods on Golarion and gods do die (like Aroden, the god Iomedae used to serve).

The battle for the Worlwound is, quite literally, a battle to keep a world-destroying god (Rovagug) contained in his prison and to protect the world from being consumed by hell!

So, paladins whose light is not spent have been given gifts form the gods and they damn well better put them to good use.

Interestingly, Milton didn't actually stand and wait, regardless of whatever solace he took from the notion. He wrote Paradise Lost instead...
1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know, a bit of good-natured ribbing of Mikaze because he tends to chain himself to Orcs and Goblins and chant "We shall overcome!" is okay, but this is trending towards "You are doing it wrong!" criticism of the non-good natured kind.
Sovereign Court
magnuskn wrote:
You know, a bit of good-natured ribbing of Mikaze because he tends to chain himself to Orcs and Goblins and chant "We shall overcome!" is okay, but this is trending towards "You are doing it wrong!" criticism of the non-good natured kind.

To be honest, I took Mikaze's use of the word 'genuine' to be criticism of the non-good natured kind.

I tried to reply in a pretty light-hearted way but as someone who always plays good characters I wasn't really keen on letting slide the insinuation that my characters are 'fake good'.
Dark Archive
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GeraintElberion wrote:
The battle for the Worlwound is, quite literally, a battle to keep a world-destroying god (Rovagug) contained in his prison and to protect the world from being consumed by hell!

Not really, no. It's all about Dreskari, Lord of the Locust Host, not Rovagug (who'se own 'Worldwound' is the Pit of Gormuz, on a completely different continent), and it's to protect the world from being consumed by the abyss. Hell's foothold is to the south, in Cheliax.

Further, Pharasma, the non-lawful and non-good goddess of childbirth and midwives, among other things, seems like the *last* goddess who would harshly judge a lawful good person for setting a small percentage of her life to promoting the tenets of her faith and taking care of children at the same time.

Iomedae might not have much use for children, but she still has that good alignment tag next to her name, and has been stated by Paizo peeps to strongly oppose the philosophy of the 'Burners' who operate in her name, killing anyone who they think might be shifty.

Although it might not even matter what Iomedae thinks. Pharasma's the one who'se gonna decide what souls end up in her domain, which is kinda odd, come to think of it.

Iomedae - 'This person didn't worship me, and I don't approve of some of the stuff they did in life...'

Pharasma - 'Deal with it, chica. I'm the decider. Besides, you have celestial great white sharks up there tearing up pods of celestial seals, so don't even pretend to me that heaven has some sort of standards for entry.'
Liberty's Edge
GeraintElberion wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
You know, a bit of good-natured ribbing of Mikaze because he tends to chain himself to Orcs and Goblins and chant "We shall overcome!" is okay, but this is trending towards "You are doing it wrong!" criticism of the non-good natured kind.

To be honest, I took Mikaze's use of the word 'genuine' to be criticism of the non-good natured kind.

I tried to reply in a pretty light-hearted way but as someone who always plays good characters I wasn't really keen on letting slide the insinuation that my characters are 'fake good'.

So your response is to essentially accuse him of the same thing? Whether intentional or not, you have to see how that's not likely to go over terribly well.

GeraintElberion wrote:

Yep, I am totally cool with blind paladins retiring to raise babies, or write Paradise Lost.

More to the point, Iomedae ain't Milton's Puritan idea of the Christian God and this isn't a world of monotheism. There are no all-powerful gods on Golarion and gods do die (like Aroden, the god Iomedae used to serve).

The battle for the Worlwound is, quite literally, a battle to keep a world-destroying god (Rovagug) contained in his prison and to protect the world from being consumed by hell!

So, paladins whose light is not spent have been given gifts form the gods and they damn well better put them to good use.

Your mistake, much like Milton's speaker in the sonnet, is to assume that there's only one way to put those gifts to "good use." The point is both cases is that there are lots of scales on which good works occur, and it is only vanity that pushes you to place one higher than another. Yes, the Worldwound is a big deal - but so are the lives of innocent children, and if you sacrifice one to try to take care of the other, you might be doing good, but you're not doing Good in the paladin-sense. You have to try to find a way to deal with both.

Given that then, and also given that "I'm going to take these goblin babies with me while I go questing against evil" is probably not a workable solution, which do you think will be the course the paladin is more likely to be able to manage: finding a person or organization willing to try to raise "monstrous babies" all the way to adulthood or finding a worthy soul to take the paladin's blade and armor up and go questing in her place? (Note: this is why "but they're goblin babies!" does in fact matter to more than just the "narcissistic" paladin. Human or elven babies don't create the same kind of dilemma, because finding a person or organization to take care of them is not going to be a problem on anywhere near the same scale.)
Sovereign Court

What I think is that paladins are not in a competition with each other to be more-gooder-than-you.

That for every my-goblin-baby-raising-is-more-gooderer-than-you argument there is a valid counter-argument.

That looking down a goblin-baby-raising nose at my paladin is not very virtuous.

I don't think that Milton was intending to look down on those who did run hither and thither in service to his God.

You see, my post was a response to another post and should be taken in that context. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

---

@Set: Fair enough, you have more ranks in Knowledge (Golarion Lore) than me. To be honest, the whole Books of the Damned distinction between demons, devils and daemons bores me.

But my point still stands: monotheistic divine omnipotence is not part of Golarion's religious milieu.

As for my dialogue, Pharasma interprets whether an individual has acheived or failed. The paladin has failed on her/his own terms: service to Iomedae... in one interpretation, which is equally valid as the goblin-baby-raising interpretation.

Set wrote:
Further, Pharasma, the non-lawful and non-good goddess of childbirth and midwives, among other things, seems like the *last* goddess who would harshly judge a lawful good person for setting a small percentage of her life to promoting the tenets of her faith and taking care of children at the same time.

Alignment, schmalignment... Pharasma, judge of the dead, is exactly the deity who would harshly judge anyone. I chose Iomedae, goddess of LG smackdown, for a reason. If this paladin had worshipped Sarenrae then things might be different.

Has failed in one interpretation?

How many interpretations must one fail before Pharasma judges you as unworthy?
Does a Paladin, by virtue of being a Paladin, foreclose all other routes of service to his god?
Can a Paladin change his mind, after prayerful reconsideration, and determine that there are other ways he can best serve his god?
Would not a god wish his servants to serve in the manner that best fits their talents?
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glad to see " the good guys " getting a little attention for there hard work.
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Hmmmmmm.... Sound to me like a good potential use of the Ultimate Campaign Guide on downtime. Paladin founds 'orphanage' and hires staff for taking care of the orphaned monstrous infants....

Just a thought.... :)

Love the cover!
Silver Crusade
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Can't stop thinking about those rogue talents either.

@GeraintElberion:

GeraintElberion wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
What's more important, stopping the evil Lich or spending years trying to nurture Goblin babies to good-alignment? Or atleast not-evil?

First I'd be searching for a reliable organization that could take care of them, like say a church of any good deity deserving of the alignment. If for some reason no such organization or support network can be found, I retire my character and bring in a new one to join the fight.

It's not an either-or between Save The World and Don't Murder Babies. When faced with two horrifically evil choices, Good either finds or makes a third option. Good doesn't take the convenient way out.

Quote:

What happens when, despite your characters best efforts, a goblin baby does turn irreparably evil? Do you slay this creature you've spent so much time caring for?

I find a new GM that doesn't stick to the Always Chaotic Evil trope as gospel, one in whose game I could actually enjoy playing a genuine good character.

Interesting to find shades-of-grey-Mikaze only demands shades of grey for goblins and orcs.

Good, however, must be absolute.

Everything is compromised, all situations are unclear, morality is negotiated, perspective is subjective and sometimes you explode the volcano to destroy the helldragon even though you did leave a CN kobold spy tied-up on level 2.

Good might seek a way, but sometimes good sucks it up and accepts it has crosses to bear.

Hard choices are there for Good to make the best of, not to sidestep.

"Hey, Pharasma, why am I stuck in the Boneyard? I was a loyal serveant of Iomedae!"
"No, Paladin. You were a loyal serveant to your own navel. You abandoned her righteous crusade against the beasts of the worldwound in order to raise children. Do you not understand how many true, just and pure paladins have forsaken the pleasures of motherhood in order to protect the world from evil?"
"I was protecting them from sin, turning them to a world of virtue and righteousness."
"While your...

Not sure what brought this on, but I think you're reading more into what I wrote than is actually there.

My post was answering Cheapy's question from the perspective of a player that has constantly had attempts to play a genuinely good character blow up in his face because "Always Chaotic Evil" or "this is how the game is supposed to be played, now be a murderhobo". If that answer bothers anyone, so be it.

But I cannot accept the idea that a false dillema is what Good is supposed to roll with by default. Like I said, it is not a choice between "save the world" or "don't murder children". Good characters try to find a way to do both. Sometimes that means giving up the sword and passing it to another, because they are needed more somewhere else. That is STILL doing Good. And again, I said "first I'd be searching for an organization/other people that could take them in". Giving up the sword is the last resort. But if it is the only option left, well yeah I'm going to take it.

Regarding "only shades of grey for orcs and goblins", I seem to recall doing that for humans, elves, dwarves, everyone else too... Cosmic force of Good though? The very essense of Good? No.

As for a world where compassion and mercy get one barred from Heaven because they didn't murder children, where looking for solutions that don't involve murdering children are considered "self-righteous" or "narcissistic" or "navel-gazing"...I have no interest in playing in that kind of game.

If you think I'm looking down my nose at you, I'm not. I just don't think murdering children gets to be called good. And I don't think Good has to accept murdering children without putting up a fight.

Personally, I'm excited and grateful that things like mercy, empathy, and redemption are finally getting their day in the sun in Golarionland.

Angel summonerrrrrr
Silver Crusade
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Cheapy wrote:
Angel summonerrrrrr

I want my BMX Bandit Companion for next year's summer AP.

Biking across the Cinderlands. @#$% yeah.

Does anyone else keep reading the title as Champions of Puuuurdy?
Paizo Employee Developer
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As far as the schedule was concerned and for internal reference purposes, Jessica renamed the book Champur, which I always imagined to be some divine hair cleaning product.
Dark Archive
mach1.9pants wrote:
Does anyone else keep reading the title as Champions of Puuuurdy?

Yeah, in my head, it's been 'Champions of Purty' for ages. :)

Silver Crusade

Lots o purty folks in th'hills o 'Lysium.

Adam Daigle wrote:
As far as the schedule was concerned and for internal reference purposes, Jessica renamed the book Champur, which I always imagined to be some divine hair cleaning product.

A quick search also turns up an Indonesian restaurant and now I'm both longing for this book AND hungry.

Sovereign Court
Mikaze wrote:

Can't stop thinking about those rogue talents either.

** spoiler omitted **

...

Mikaze:
I probably had some sand in my... sorry.

Honestly, I would love to game with you some day and really appreciate your contribution to the boards. There are some areas where our style differs but they are probably vastly exaggerated by the whole internet-message-baord-effect.

Have you read the latest Pathfinder Tales novel, Called To Darkness? It has humans and orc tribes working together for the greater good in a way that I really liked and I think you might dig... it is also just generally awesome.

GeraintElberion wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

Can't stop thinking about those rogue talents either.

** spoiler omitted **

...
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Awesome is apparently just another word for triceratops-riding frost giant!!
Silver Crusade
GeraintElberion wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

Can't stop thinking about those rogue talents either.

** spoiler omitted **

...
** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Nae problem. I know how frustrationexplosions feel sometimes. :)

And dammit, now I have to read that book!

Kajehase wrote:


** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
OH DOUBLE DAMMIT.

** spoiler omitted **

Sorry guys, peer pressure :X
Project Manager
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Adam Daigle wrote:
As far as the schedule was concerned and for internal reference purposes, Jessica renamed the book Champur, which I always imagined to be some divine hair cleaning product.

Largely because for the life of me, I could not keep "Champions of Purity" and "Chronicle of the Righteous" straight, so I dubbed them Champure and Chronteous. That fixed my problem.

Oh, and Doompawn.

I am all about efficiency.
Sovereign Court

Doompawn? Isn't that the stuff they joke about eating in Aliens?

Are those ghouls or chokers on the cover?
Silver Crusade
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Toadkiller Dog wrote:
Are those ghouls or chokers on the cover?

Lemures maybe?

ALSO, APPROX. 40 DAYS LEFT

This sounds promising.
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