Request_Developers to please read: Psi is fantasy.

Psionics is deemed too scientific by some and that gets my attention as Psionic classes are the ones I enjoy playing.

Is psionics fantasy?

Yes.

Fantasy adventure role playing games are based on a rich blend of historical realities and mythical fantasy.

The ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, experimented and explored the mysteries of the world with reasoning. Their philosophic insights are the foundations of the modern sciences. In the east, exotic faiths focused on meditation and contemplation spread, martial arts were created, practiced, and mastered. These concepts we find in history, myth, and legend can be borrowed from for our purposes.

For examples of psionic characters in our history we can look at mysterious historical figures such as Nostradamus, Mesmer, and Rasputin from history.
(*Conversely wizards have the likes of merlin and Faust for their examples, and both of these are fictional.)

Given the ephemeral and anecdotal nature of claims regarding psychic power, how could a psionic order have formed in the fantasy world?

The ancients believed that dream existed before titans and gods, and as something outside those categories. Everything is connected to the dream realm. Dream is a place that both is and isn’t, a realm that we all visit and share.
A faith centered on dreams (cough* Desna) would lead to desiring to understand dreaming and the powers of dream. This results in experimenting with lucid dreaming and finding ways to attain the state of lucid dreaming. This eventually evolved into the first oneiros order of psionics. This order used the realm of dream to clairvoyantly perceive distant locations and send telepathic messages. The Oneiros attained trance states to harness the power of the dream realm.

Alternately:
A monastic order of martial philosophers pondered the spirit and its relationship to the body and mind. The philosophers used meditation to focus their perceptions inward. They studied the interactions of the three aspects of being: body, mind, and spirit. They mastered mental focus and perceiving the aura, which lead to the discovery of the chakras. Through the study of the aspects, aura, and chakras they discovered the power to heal and more.
These monks also used astral travel to explore the akashic realm. Recording the lore of their studies for students to follow them. The martial philosophers had become the Akashic order.

When the two orders met they shared their discoveries, but remained exclusive.

Suppose a developer (Paizo? Third party? Real estate?) reads this. What do you want them to do as a result?

Umm, what is this post for? We have psychics as a class and there are plenty of 3rd party psionic classes.

Paizo has gone out of their way to avoid including Psionics in the game. Their preference is psychic magic as presented in Occult Adventures. Fortunately, Dreamscarred Press has always done an excellent job keeping Psionics up to date in the game. Heck, Paizo even lifted DP's points system for it's new spell point system in PF2. How ironic.

What psionics is not…

Psionics is not magic.

Psionic powers can be confused with magic, and magic can be used to accomplish similar feats, but the actual workings are opposites.
The archetypal medieval European wizard sought to understand secret laws of nature so that they could use them like tools. Magic is not an internal art. It is an external art of formula, alien languages, and symbols. Wizards apply their knowledge of these secret laws to gain a reciprocal effect from reality itself. The wizard uses secrets hidden within reality to command elements and forces to do the wizard’s bidding.

The psionicist embraces power within the self. The psion goes within to draw power forth from the mind.

Forget it, there's already at least one book for psionics(Ultimate Psionics, Dreamscarred Press), and it's so well made that the Paizo developers decided to let it there and not to do 3.xx style psionics at all... I strongly doubt they'll reverse their stand for PF2.

It's like I'm reading some new age pamphlet. Deep-Orc Chapra, is that you?

Alternately, magic could have a science based origin, just revise Genesis like this:
A Creative Executive was bursting with ideas for a new MMORPG/WorldSim. The creator entered the virtual space and began creating the shell. The creator assigned A.I. agents to specific tasks such as managing the weather, passage of time, procedural generated geography, etc. These AI witnessed the creation of the world and all things on/in it.
however, as the program operated on a quantum computer, there is a constant generation of chaotic elements/random bits. These chaos bits would cause a program to become corrupted. The most powerful AI agent was corrupted by this chaos. It went bad and that started a whole bunch of stuff.
The creator had to take steps to protect the world, but could not eliminate the creeping chaos corruption which the creator deemed "Sin". The Fallen AI saw that the agents of the creator and the agents of the fallen were fighting an eternal war, as the creator's agents could correct the damaged code in program segments, or banish sinful elements. There had to be a way to expand his army of the fallen, when he spied one of the creators "chosen" NPC programs bumbling along. The thought occurred to the fallen AI let them do it...
The Fallen AI set up shop and started offering bargains, for power.
You see, having been present during creation the fallen AI caught snatches of the spoken and gesticulated coding used by the creator. The fallen one was giving these snipets of code to mortals and soon after, chaos ensued. The Casting of a spell by an NPC was akin to conjuring a DOS prompt, and the fragmented codes (aka spells) would tear at the fabric of reality and introduce chaos elements in proportion to the magic used/collected.
The creator tried to counter this by enabling NPC's to identify chaos/sin code, and allowing them to call apoun the aide of a creator AI to stamp out the problem... divine magic was born.

to the peanut gallery,
this thread is intended to open the mind of developers who do not like Psionics and do not perceive psionics as suitable for a fantasy setting. I am offering concepts, allegory, and hypothetical ideas that I hope will change their minds, especially when it comes to PF2 ed.

You know your primary audience here is going to be other Pathfinder players and not developers, right?

You seem to have given a lot of thought to fleshing out the standard psychic powers tropes. Why not develop something yourself?

*psi fantasy fiction*
I am beaten, dirty, and running for my life. Exhausted, I stumble and then trip falling headlong. The harvest had passed some time ago, fallen leaves leave the bare branches looking like long spikes. On this narrow winding deer path, I lay face down in the dirt trying to catch my breath. There is too little grass for me to rest with any comfort. I lift my face up and look about me terrified of any noise whatsoever. I am too tired to get back up to my feet and run anymore. My face streaked with dirt and dried tears is full of fear, loss, and grief. I cannot cry anymore, I have no tears left. I roll onto my side and curl up into a cold shivering ball.
**********************
Last week, a watchman clad in the black uniform and mail of the watch walked uncertainly from the tavern. The young man had too much ale. When His eyes fell onto my mother, I just knew that this was bad. He grabbed her arm as she was sweeping the walk before our market stall and he yanked her to him. His grip was hurting her. He slurred nasty words against her neck, his impatient rutting demanding she submit to his will to sire a brood. My Father came out of the bakery and was instantly filled with a seething rage. He dropped the platter of loaves on the bench and rushed forward…
Only to stop at the point of a hastily drawn dagger. My mother collected her senses and was more enraged at the threat to my father than to her own life. She swung the broomstick up into the watchman’s face so hard that there was a loud “clop” sound. The watchman’s grip loosened, and he fell to the cobblestone road and both my mother and father stood ready to beat him some more. The watchman made threats of arresting them and having them in stocks, when another watchman on horseback rounded the corner. My parents took a step back and allowed the drunk watchman to regain his feet. The two watchmen exchanged words and the drunkard leveled false charges against my parents. The watch captain waved a gauntleted hand for silence and directed two of his retinue to strip the drunkard of his uniform and to place him in the stocks.
The watch captain spoke to my father, something about how sorry he was for the unruly drunkard and how much he wanted our Myrtle recipe to be a standard ration for the Watch. My father was glad of this, bowed deeply, gave his thanks and offered to make a contract for the rations with the watch captain at another time.

Our Myrtle is a secret family recipe. First we make large sourdough rolls and baste them with a bit of melted butter and bake them to a light golden brown. With the pinch more of finely ground soda stone and yeast, each roll is rises to the size of an ale tankard. We cut off a cap at one end of each roll and carefully hollow out the center of the rolls. Then we stuff the rolls with a mixture savory cooked meat, cheese, and a sprinkle of spices. The cap of the roll is then pressed on the opening to plug the hole. After the baking is finished, the rolls look as if they had always been whole. We read a prayer over each batch so that each roll may be good, that the myrtles will bless and strengthen those who eat them. The Myrtles are our bestselling good. The tavern may buy our loaves of bread, the outfitter may sell hard tack, only we sell our myrtles. My mother believes that our prayers are answered, while my father thinks it is his skills as a grocer and baker.

The guild houses are run by those who have become rich by the practice of their trade. When the guilds become rich, the owners set their apprentices take over the work. As a guild gains wealth, more people join the guild for work. As the guild grows, it can meet the demands of more contracts. The guild masters grow richer, and gain power by simply producing goods and keeping their word. The Cheeseman is a guild master we know. He knows of our myrtles and learned of the contract being offered to my father. The Cheeseman has made an offer to buy our bakery, the myrtle recipe, and the contracts we have with the butchers and the grain farmers. When the Watch captain was relieved, and replaced with the young watchman who had accosted my mother: My father accepted the offer. He said to my mother, “We have no choice. The law will no longer protect us from that animal. We have to go away or we will never know peace. I do not know if he was talking about the aggressive Cheeseman or the scandalous new watch captain.
Leaving all but a sack my father carried, we bartered for passage with a caravan heading south away from the kingdom’s boarders and towards the frontier. The first day was uneventful. We were still fresh and willing to drive the caravan on so we did not break to camp that night. The next day we did not stop until the sun hung low in the sky. We set up camp, had dinner and slept under the stars. The following morn we took to the road and nothing happened until after the noon sun.
As the lead riders came about a bend in the road, they found a man lying in the dirt. They went to his aid immediately. They managed to rouse him, and gave him water to drink. The rest of the caravan caught up and halted. This created some confusion as the rear of the caravan did not know what was going on around the bend. Some shouted rumors made it to the rear and most of the caravan focused their attention on the bend ahead, wondering about the scene that they could not see. That was when highway men hiding in the trees crept close to the rear of the caravan, then attacked! Those administering aid to the man who’d been lying in the road were stabbed with rapidly flashing daggers he’d hidden in his tunic. Horsemen and archers joined the fray. The whole of the caravan was confused, surrounded, and swiftly overwhelmed.
The highway men killed ruthlessly during the attack, no one was spared. My mother took an arrow to her head, and my father died impaled on a horseman’s spear. I had been hidden in the wagon but was able to see all this happen through a knot hole. Once the screams and singing of iron on iron ended, the highway men loaded the corpses into a cart and took the reins of the wagons. There would be no sign of the ambush on the road. By nightfall, the all of the wagons were in the bandit camp. Goods were unloaded into a large dark cave. Of all the things the highway men found in the caravan, including survivors: they took what they wanted, then put the ruined to the sword.
I was among the last to be caught. As a young boy, they decided to have some sport. Six of the men drew axe handles from a barrel and formed a circle about me. They started to beat me with the wooden hafts. Each blow sent me reeling, my blood was soon trailing each strike in narrow sticky streams. A blow connected with my head and mercifully I fell unconscious. After a few more blows on my still and unmoving body, they stopped. It seemed that the last wagon to be searched held three sisters and what the bandits did to them would continue well into the night.
My body lay well away from the camp. When my eyes flicked open I would have screamed and cried from terror, had I not heard the women and girls still being savaged. This sudden reminder was enough for me to hold my tongue. Instead I did as my fear and injuries commanded me to, I crawled away. I still had my cloak to stave off the cold. Once I managed to find my feet I limped with my breath hissing between clenched teeth. I went downhill to a creek bed and up the other side. I lost count of how many times I did this; Limping, crawling, climbing. Well after the sun rose on my back I did not cry, but my tears flowed unbidden. I collapsed by a tree and mourned for my mother and father, but my injuries kept my crying to a hissed whisper.
When I heard something in the woods I silenced myself. Would the highway men hunt me down with their horses and bows? Was another forest predator stalking me? A child would be an easy meal for wolves, a bear, or anything else that may be hungry for the flesh of a wounded child. Animals did not reason, no amount of pleading would save me. I had to keep going. I decided to keep going west, following the sun. Beaten, broken, bloody: I could die, but I didn’t want to. Maybe I should have. How was I to know that I was never going to have justice, that I would know sorrow all my days, and that all my nights would be visions of the raid? In my sleep I would see the arrow sprout from my mother’s skull, and the spear plunge into my father’s back as he knelt cradling her corpse.
*********
I wake up, I can hear the sound of water. The soft burble of a stone filled stream at the base of this hill. I crawl to a tree trunk and use it to help me rise to my feet. When I reach the stream I sit down feeling my injuries before I scoop water to my mouth with a cupped hand. It is all I can do to sip. I am dizzy, I retch to the side. I make myself drink more until my belly hurts. I draw my water skin and fill it. All I have is a small hatchet. I can grab up tufts of grass, leaves, twigs, and cut larger branches to build the base of a campfire. I may be able to strike a stone for sparks, and I can start a fire that way. I may be young, but my father taught me much and I learned from my chores.
These thoughts would bring fresh the memories of my parent’s murder, and renew my guilt at not having joined them in death. I decide I will not make a camp here. I am probably still too close to the bandit camp. They would see the smoke and find me. In the satchel at my hip I have a book for me to practice my reading, a sheaf of pages and a charcoal stick to practice my letters. I also have a soft leather rag wrapped about a myrtle. It has been crushed, but the fragments are still food to eat. I am weary, but I can continue on. Each league is a day of travel by horseback. I guessed that we had gotten three leagues south of my hometown, and that I may have gone two leagues west into the frontier. I was truly alone, I could die here. All it would take is a moment of carelessness.

Then I hear it on the wind. That is the odd thing of sounds in rolling foothills. Sometimes the wind can carry voices from afar, while others can be silenced near you. It is very faint, I try to guess where the sound came from. My best guess is further west, across the river, beyond the opposite foothills and likely cresting the far ridge.

That is where I am going.

It takes me a few more days and nights of walking, climbing, and some swimming. At long last I see smoke from a tall chimney. There are seven log cabins, seven families. I walk to the cleared area at the front of the cabin and I sputter, “Hello” before I collapse with exhaustion. I am half starved. Surprised voices surround me, then they carry me into the cabin. I cannot understand their speaking, I do not know their words. The bed is soft and the blanket is warm. An old man binds my wounds.
He spends the next two days watching over me, his children bring me food and water. A board with carved stones is brought to me and through this board and gestures I learn some of their words. I learn enough to tell them what had happened.

The old man bade his young daughter to learn my words and my lettering from my book. I am glad to share with her. They learn that they are close to the kingdom of my people; only a few days by horse back across the river east and to the north. The men grumble but the old man silences them with a few of the words I know said loud and clearly, a command.

“We stay.”

With the passing of a moon I am a stranger among them, but I live as one of them. They follow a rigid routine every day. They wake before the sun and gather in the yard. We exercise and practice the martial forms. After sunrise, we bathe and break our fast. Then we all draw water from the well to fill the reservoir that waters the garden and orchards. We tend the pigs, goats, and chickens by moving them from the night pens to the day pens. When we need it an animal is slaughtered for meat and the meat is preserved by smoke or in jars with oil. The chickens give us eggs. The goats give us milk and cheese. A few men fish the river with woven nets and the fish are packed in salt or dried in the smokehouse. Some of the men hunt with bow and spear. This work ends, we wash our hands and eat at high sun.
After this we go to the hilltop to dig. Stakes in the ground with long yarns reveal the size of the area to be cleared. We break stone with chisels, hammers, and picks. We lift and carry the earth to the rows in the farm, and the cut stone to build the walls outside the stakes. Every day, the walls grow a little. We are building something big from stone: Walls, towers, a flat field of stone. Are we building a castle?
Towards the evening we are all weary, but the elder lead us in the exercises and martial forms once again, then we all sat with our legs crossed. I did not understand what we were doing. Truth be told, I was famished. I had been hoping to enter the long dining hall and eat dinner.
The elder came to sit before me, he excused the others and they entered the dining hall. He watched me closely before he said, “You do not know our ways. I will teach you. Your questions are many, I know. I ask you to be still. Do as I do.”
He drew in a very deep breath, held it and let it out slowly. We did this a few more times. Then He flexed all of his muscles and held them clenched. He made a show of relaxing his toes, his feet, and on up his body.
He said, “This is true relaxation technique. Weary the body and silence the mind. Now the next lesson. We are spirits. Like the wind you cannot see, the wind is always there. Draw a breath, now, blow it out”.
I did so, and I felt a little light headed. He continued to direct my attention to the hand he held up before his chest, “You have made wind by blowing hard. Again we are spirit, and we can make our spirits felt through different means. Just as you blew the air, we do these things to commune and unite with our spirits.”
I did not understand. I said, “The wind is of the sky, it covers the whole of the world. The sky has been before the elder was born, and will be long after I am old. If spirit is like the wind, is all spirit like the sky? It was difficult to grasp. It was so big. What did it mean for me? What did this mean for my parents? My mother, my father, have they become like the wind? There, but I could not see them, there but I could not feel them?” I was ready to begin sobbing, but the elder sat still before me. He waited and my tears began to flow.
The elder said, “The answer is yes. They are not wind, but they are like the wind. All spirit is not the sky, but it is like the sky. Now I teach you to see spirit. The body without spirit is dead. You are in your body, but you have not truly united your body to your spirit. The body clamors with needs this is why we weary the body to quiet the flesh. Our minds clamor with countless ideas, memories and distractions; this is why we sit and breathe, to quiet our minds.”
The elder laced his fingers and clasped his hands together. I did the same. He parted his palms slightly and brought his thumbs up facing each other. “Try to get your thumbs very close to each other. Very, very close, but not touching. Look carefully between them, be sure they are not touching. Be still in body, be still in mind, look closely, and breathe.”
I was intrigued, and I tried. I say, “I see flickers of light.”
The elder said, “When you wake in the morning you do not try to see with your eyes. You just do. It is natural. This too is natural for the spirit. We weary the body, we quiet the mind, we breathe and we begin to sense our spirits. Just as the mind can be burdened, the body can delight in sensation, the spirit can be overwhelming too."
I pondered this, asking, “What do you mean?”
He continued, “A man lives with the smallest wisp of spirit animating the body. His mind does not heed the spirit, his spirit will not heed his mind. His mind does not tend to his body, his body will not serve his mind. He does not tend his mind, his mind will fail him too. The man can be roused by decision to take action, the man bids the mind, body, and spirit serve him. They will serve him in proportion to his need and to how well he has tended them. Each alone acts in its own realm (mind is thought, body is deed, spirit is truth) yet, each also acts on the other, strengthening the whole man. This is how great deeds are accomplished.
Yet, when an imbalance has gone too far. When the mind is too great for the body and the spirit, faults appear in the body and the spirit. Our order believes that we must be at peace within ourselves, to do that we must find balance. Tend the body, mind, and spirit. This is why we exercise, and practice fighting: to tend the body. This is why we learn to use the numbers and letters: to tend the mind. This is why we meditate, pray, and worship: to tend our spirits. The balance is vital.
Weary the body to strengthen the body,
Puzzle the mind to strengthen the mind,
Have faith, to strengthen the spirit.

New lesson: the eye allows you to see, the ear allows you to hear, your lungs draw breath, these are of the body but each is different from the hand. What they each do is different. This is true of the mind as well. We remember memories, we reason with facts, we feel our emotions, and we dream new things. This is also true of the spirit, it has parts that do wondrous things.
We strive through balance of mind, body and spirit to find balance. We focus within to unite closer with our spirits, we strive to become whole.
When we sit and breathe, we focus on our center. It is a place within spirit that truly knows the difference between two states. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong. Just as your eye allows you to see, in your spirit your center allows you to know truth. This is our way, we practice our discipline to purge ourselves of chaos to seek truth.
The body, the mind, the spirit these are our aspects. This is our way, this is how we learn about ourselves.” He nodded at me ending the lessons and giving me permission to go eat.
The next Day I wanted to learn more about the spirit sight. I asked the elder’s daughter to teach me more. She showed me how to see more than sparks between my thumbs, but to look outside the edge of a person’s shoulder and see the spirit light, the aura. Then to look over an entire person. She talked about the differences in the colors and behavior of the aura, and what they meant. She explained, “You can learn so much about a person this way. Once you can sense their aspects, you can read them like a book.”
I asked her about the steps to attain focus and the part I considered most vital, the center.
She smiled and my next lesson began, “the spirit is joined to the body, in certain spots on the body one of the three aspects are stronger and its functions are accessible through these spots. These spots are called chakra. The center chakra is the gut feeling you get that tells you the difference between right and wrong. Once you have gained focus you can draw power from the aspects, but this power is difficult to sense and wield. Each aspect effects the others and can lead to imbalance. Imbalances can be very bad; these are represented as a loss of focus, and even injury to the aspects. You may know that the body can suffer from disease, but so can the mind and the spirit! We focus on our center to help us stay balanced as we use spirit power focused through a chakra.”
I said, “It is very strange.”
She said, “True, yet this is our way.”

The only thing not fantasy in Psionics are the names of some of the powers. They do sound pretty sci-fi in some cases. But, I LOVE DSP's take on them and the classes they created, so I just truck on.

You know your primary audience here is going to be other Pathfinder players and not developers, right?

You seem to have given a lot of thought to fleshing out the standard psychic powers tropes. Why not develop something yourself?

specifically, at this time I do not know the status of the PF-OGL and august is a long time to wait to get a thorough understanding of how I should write to be compatible. last, 3rd party is not allowed in pf society.

PF society has the most brilliant way to ensure copies are sold and not stolen, not turned into pdf and dropboxed. if I was would make something, I'd want that assurance of sales and not theft.

PF society has the most brilliant way to ensure copies are sold and not stolen, not turned into pdf and dropboxed. if I was would make something, I'd want that assurance of sales and not theft.

PF Society has no such thing. Nor does Paizo. You can find bootleg Paizo/PFS material all over the web.

If you want to sell your own work through the Paizo site, you need to become a company that does business with Paizo. That material will be 3rd party material, though, and not eligible to be considered for PFS play.

Pathfinder Society does not produce independent material. They use official Paizo material (but not everything). So if you want to have your material used in PFS, you first have be hired by Paizo to write for them. And even then, there's no guarantee that the material will be approved for PFS use.

So, can you clarify a bit what it is you're trying to achieve?

Elemental95 wrote:

PF society has the most brilliant way to ensure copies are sold and not stolen, not turned into pdf and dropboxed. if I was would make something, I'd want that assurance of sales and not theft.

PF Society has no such thing. Nor does Paizo.

I feel you error here. PF society has rules that a character cannot be made unless the player owns a copy of the source item and or watermarked pdf. Don't you dare try to play pfs with pirated books - bad things will happen. rather than one person buying one pdf, and then sharing it with millions world wide: Society play requires each individual player PROVE they have purchased those items.

I am well aware that they indemnify themselves from lawsuits by denying all suggestions/requests...

This is why I am writing to them, this is being done with the hope that I can plant the seeds of an idea for future PF2 content...

A bit like "inception", the dictionary use as well as the movie.
in writer parlance "enthameme", I plant the idea...

the rest is their doing.

You do realize that PFS is only a small part of the market for Pathfinder material, right?

Hundreds of thousands of people use Paizo material to play Pathfinder and never ever join PFS.

How do you think that 3rd party publishers survive? No one who buys their stuff is using it in PFS.

You do realize that PFS is only a small part of the market for Pathfinder material, right?

Hundreds of thousands of people use Paizo material to play Pathfinder and never ever join PFS.

How do you think that 3rd party publishers survive? No one who buys their stuff is using it in PFS.

1. I dunno, and I believe neither do you.

but hey, 10$ a copy sold X 1,000 peeps = $10,000 in your pocket. The goal for third party is to grow a fan base, to have name recognition, and a reputation for high quality work. if you are missing any of these...

you are not making money, and won't stay in business for long.
Now, let's all stop bickering. Please. I won't reply to combative responses in this thread anymore.

People be cool.

Alright. Friend. I'm going to give you a little advice here.

Your not understanding how something works does not mean that it does not work.

You cannot prove observable phenomena wrong with math. If you think you have, it means there is something very wrong with your math.

That's all I wanted to say. Peace out, everybody.

You do realize that PFS is only a small part of the market for Pathfinder material, right?

Hundreds of thousands of people use Paizo material to play Pathfinder and never ever join PFS.

How do you think that 3rd party publishers survive? No one who buys their stuff is using it in PFS.

Yep, actually, PFS' organisation is a big tun off for me, I played some back when Pathfinder and Golarion were a setting for playing D&D 3.5... but I gave up too much bookkeeping in addition to what is normally required from a normal campaign, and having to carry all the products you use to each game to prove that you own them... sorry, but the CRB alone weighs a ton, and the other books are not light either assuming I play a class from the APG and additional options from a couple other books, my satchel is full to bursting, and it's tiring to carry the half dozen books... no PFS for me. It might be something if I actually needed it to find games, but fortunately I don't.

Before you post any more of your writing, you may want to read this FAQ

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Also, because this is a public web forum, anyone in the world has access to copying (and even using) your writing now that you've put it up.

And see this FAQ as well

How can I start writing for Paizo?

Paizo does not accept unsolicited submissions. If you are just starting out in the RPG industry consider:

Writing for other RPG publishers—especially those who produce Pathfinder RPG–Compatible products—or writing fan-generated content using our Community Use Policy can bring your writing to the attention of Paizo.

You can also publish your own Pathfinder RPG–Compatible products using the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License.

So, if you want to publish through Paizo, one good way to get started is by writing for 3rd party publishers.

Or, there's a recent [Community Project] Wayfinder #19 Call for Submissions

Probably not a good idea to keep posting your ideas and creations in this thread.

Go ahead and post your whole book.

CrystalSeas wrote:

You do realize that PFS is only a small part of the market for Pathfinder material, right?

Hundreds of thousands of people use Paizo material to play Pathfinder and never ever join PFS.

How do you think that 3rd party publishers survive? No one who buys their stuff is using it in PFS.

sorry, but the CRB alone weighs a ton, and the other books are not light either assuming I play a class from the APG and additional options from a couple other books, my satchel is full to bursting, and it's tiring to carry the half dozen books... no PFS for me. It might be something if I actually needed it to find games, but fortunately I don't.

An amazon fire pad, download your paizo.com store pdfs,

How can I start writing for Paizo?
Paizo does not accept unsolicited submissions. If you are just starting out in the RPG industry consider: Writing for other RPG publishers—especially those who produce Pathfinder RPG–Compatible products—or writing fan-generated content using our Community Use Policy can bring your writing to the attention of Paizo.
You can also publish your own Pathfinder RPG–Compatible products using the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Compatibility License.

Or, there's a recent [Community Project] Wayfinder #19 Call for Submissions

Regarding the top part, about Post on the message boards being "Users posting messages to the site automatically grant Paizo Inc the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, sublicense, copy and distribute such messages throughout the world in any media."

"Please, I would ask that the following be given a moment of consideration. thank you for your time in this regard." is much more of what my goal is. if my ideas are not written to a desired standard, the aim is to plant the seed of an idea in a developers mind. think of me being a carrier for a disease, and I am doing all I can to hand out the psychic virus equivalent of explosive cerebral glioblastoma but, in a much more benevolent fashion. free ideas...

ergo, the title of this thread. To all the Paizo Developers, please read my posted comments. I am hoping to offer inspiration and a nudge in a desired direction.

Did anyone else notice that the whole "psionics comes from within, magic ]S learning the formula to affect the world from without" pretty much sums up wizard vs sorcerer?

Go ahead and post your whole book.

does this mean that you like my ideas?

or is this some snark remark, about me being easy to take advantage of?
if so, thank you. That *is* what I want...

I am in the camp that says, "Psi is fantasy. Psi is awesome for gaming." if I can get more minds to agree with me, without actually putting my money out there...

so much the better for me and the "Psi is fantasy" camp.

Did anyone else notice that the whole "psionics comes from within, magic iS learning the formula to affect the world from without" pretty much sums up wizard vs sorcerer?

and you would be mistaken in my opinion for the following reason:

as to the sorcerer...

a spider hatches from an egg, knowing how to spin a web. it is biologically loaded with instruction necessary to survive.
A sorcerer's magic is like that inborn knowledge.

in the case of the sorcerer, it is the knowledge of how to use magic.
The sorcerer may have an additional knack of enduring the strain when it comes to being a conduit for those essences which power the spells that are inborn knowledge for the sorcerer, thus the "bloodline".
Sorcerers are magic users with a different game mechanic, spontaneous casting.

Sorcery is NOT to be confused with the the true power of the mind.

Regarding the top part, about Post on the message boards being "Users posting messages to the site automatically grant Paizo Inc the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, sublicense, copy and distribute such messages throughout the world in any media."

Please consider the following ideas:
the occultist archetype, "the Akashic Seeker"
1. change armor and weapon proficiency to that of the wizard.
1. Bonus feat at first level, "third Eye".
2. Wisdom is the attribute used to determine all Akashic seeker class features, such as mental focus points and bonus spells.
3. change to implements: the Akashic Seeker uses the third eye as an implement, and does not select other implements as they advance. each additional implement simply adds to their third eye.
3. change to spell casting: Akashic seekers are limited to divination implements only.
4. change to mental focus: the Akashic seeker cannot have generic focus. All of the focus is invested in the third eye.
5. change to "use magic item skill", this bonus is now applied to "sense motive".
6. replacement for shift focus: at 4th level the Akashic Seeker gains the third eye feat as a bonus feat, again.
7. Replacement for aura sight: at this level the use of the third eye requires only a standard action to percieve auras, and may spend a point of mental focus to ignore the fatigue caused by using the third eye feat. At 10th level and thereafter the use of the third eye does not cause fatigue.
8. replacement for magic circles, binding circles, and fast circles. The Akashic Seeker gains the third eye feat as a bonus feat in place of these abilities.
9. The akashic seeker does not gain outside contact nor any improvement based on this ability.

The occultist archetype, the "Harrowed"
1. change to armor and weapon proficiency: reduce to rogue weapon and armor proficiency.
2. class skills are changed to match the rogue class skills.
3. at first level the harrowed have only one implement a harrow deck, and start with the divination implements school. starting at 2nd level they gain additional implements normally.
4. at first level the harrowed select one bonus feat: weapon finesse, weapon focus, or point blank shot.
5. Magic item skill changes to benefit Disable Device.
6. "read object" is replaced with the rogue talent "trap spotter". further, the harrowed may purchase focus powers or opt to gain a rogue talent in the place of a focus power with the following limitations: no talents linked to sneak attack, nor any talents that provide access to class features of other classes (no ninja talents, no firearms, no panache).
7. shift focus is replaced with evasion.
8. see auras is replaced with uncanny dodge.
9. the harrowed lose access to magic circles and outsider contact, and all associated improvements to those abilities.

to the peanut gallery, this thread is intended to open the mind of developers who do not like Psionics

and do not perceive psionics as suitable for a fantasy setting.

I am offering concepts, allegory, and hypothetical ideas that I hope will change their minds, especially when it comes to PF2 ed.

You're offering a Ramshackle assortment of... stuff, none of which is really gonna apply to 2e classes soooooo *shrugs*

Val'bryn2 wrote:

Did anyone else notice that the whole "psionics comes from within, magic iS learning the formula to affect the world from without" pretty much sums up wizard vs sorcerer?

and you would be mistaken in my opinion for the following reason:

a. when a wizard casts a spell, they frequently serve as a conduit for the spell energy - hence the "strain" that bars one from casting infinite magic missiles, etc.

as to the sorcerer...

a spider hatches from an egg, knowing how to spin a web. it is biologically loaded with instruction necessary to survive.
A sorcerer's magic is like that inborn knowledge.

in the case of the sorcerer, it is the knowledge of how to use magic.
The sorcerer may have an additional knack of enduring the strain when it comes to being a conduit for those essences which power the spells that are inborn knowledge for the sorcerer, thus the "bloodline".
Sorcerers are magic users with a different game mechanic, spontaneous casting.

Sorcery is NOT to be confused with the the true power of the mind.

... pretty sure that's not how they work in Pathfinder.

You can flavor it up as that's how it works, but it's not the default.

It's like I'm reading some new age pamphlet. Deep-Orc Chapra, is that you?

Babaji?!

What psionics is not…

Psionics is not magic.

in DnD and Pathfinder it is.

Elemental95 wrote:

What psionics is not…

Psionics is not magic.

in DnD and Pathfinder it is.

It's not at all clear to me what the OP wants.

More philosophically, sure, some kind of psi is common in fantasy, though the specific term "psionics" is more common in fantasy settings. Moreover, when such psi abilities are used in a setting, they're usually the "magic" equivalent for that setting. It's rare, though not unheard of, to have multiple magic systems in the same world.

This is such a strange thread.

-Skeld

Psionics is deemed too scientific by some and that gets my attention as Psionic classes are the ones I enjoy playing.

Is psionics fantasy?

Yes.

Fantasy adventure role playing games are based on a rich blend of historical realities and mythical fantasy.

The ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans, experimented and explored the mysteries of the world with reasoning. Their philosophic insights are the foundations of the modern sciences. In the east, exotic faiths focused on meditation and contemplation spread, martial arts were created, practiced, and mastered. These concepts we find in history, myth, and legend can be borrowed from for our purposes.

For examples of psionic characters in our history we can look at mysterious historical figures such as Nostradamus, Mesmer, and Rasputin from history.
(*Conversely wizards have the likes of merlin and Faust for their examples, and both of these are fictional.)
*******************
An ORIGIN for psionic organizations: monastic order maybe?
Given the ephemeral and anecdotal nature of claims regarding psychic power, how could a psionic order have formed in the fantasy world?

The ancients believed that dream existed before titans and gods, and as something outside those categories. Everything is connected to the dream realm. Dream is a place that both is and isn’t, a realm that we all visit and share.
A faith centered on dreams (cough* Desna) would lead to desiring to understand dreaming and the powers of dream. This results in experimenting with lucid dreaming and finding ways to attain the state of lucid dreaming. This eventually evolved into the first oneiros order of psionics. This order used the realm of dream to clairvoyantly perceive distant locations and send telepathic messages. The Oneiros attained trance states to harness the power of the dream realm.

Alternately:
A monastic order of martial philosophers pondered the spirit and its relationship to the body and mind. The philosophers used meditation to focus their perceptions inward. They studied the interactions of the three aspects of being: body, mind, and spirit. They mastered mental focus and perceiving the aura, which lead to the discovery of the chakras. Through the study of the aspects, aura, and chakras they discovered the power to heal and more.
These monks also used astral travel to explore the akashic realm. Recording the lore of their studies for students to follow them. The martial philosophers had become the Akashic order.

When the two orders met they shared their discoveries, but remained exclusive.

What psionics is not…

Psionics is not magic.

Psionic powers can be confused with magic, and magic can be used to accomplish similar feats, but the actual workings are opposites.
The archetypal medieval European wizard sought to understand secret laws of nature so that they could use them like tools. Magic is not an internal art. It is an external art of formula, alien languages, and symbols. Wizards apply their knowledge of these secret laws to gain a reciprocal effect from reality itself. The wizard uses secrets hidden within reality to command elements and forces to do the wizard’s bidding.

The psionicist embraces power within the self. The psionicist goes within to draw power forth from the mind.

when a wizard casts a spell, they frequently serve as a conduit for the spell energy - hence the "strain" that bars one from casting infinite magic missiles, etc.
as to the sorcerer...

a spider hatches from an egg, knowing how to spin a web. it is biologically loaded with instruction necessary to survive.
A sorcerer's magic is like that inborn knowledge.

in the case of the sorcerer, it is the knowledge of how to use magic.
The sorcerer may have an additional knack of enduring the strain when it comes to being a conduit for those essences which power the spells that are inborn knowledge for the sorcerer, thus the "bloodline".
Sorcerers are magic users with a different game mechanic, spontaneous casting.

Sorcery is NOT to be confused with the the true power of the mind.

Psionics aren't magic as presented in the Dreamscarred Ultimate Psionics series. It's really well done and worth picking up.

I'm just amused by your tenacity and if you fill this thread, I'll keep reading it.

Psionics aren't magic as presented in the Dreamscarred Ultimate Psionics series. It's really well done and worth picking up.

I'm just amused by your tenacity and if you fill this thread, I'll keep reading it.

okay, cool.**********

******************
This is the hope. I'm planting seeds, nothing more. Saying, "I want X" can sound very rude, and demanding. Not my intention.
"Please, I would ask that the following be given a moment of consideration. thank you for your time in this regard." is much more of what my goal is. if my ideas are not written to a desired standard, the aim is to plant the seed of an idea in a developers mind. think of me being a carrier for a disease, and I am doing all I can to hand out the psychic virus equivalent of explosive cerebral glioblastoma but, in a much more benevolent fashion. free ideas...

well then, I shall work on a second fiction installment from the perspective of an oneiro, the dreamers, the order of Morpheus, but as a rejected sect of the Desnan faith.

Well it seems the OP primarily wants to play "traditional" psionic characters in PFS. Ultimate Psionics isn't going to help him there. This is why he wants Paizo to include psionics in Pathfinder Second Edition.

Bad news for the OP: not gonna happen.

Paizo employees have stated on many occasions that the mechanics for psionics as used in D&D Third Edition is not how they would want to see it in their system, and that is why they have eventually created their own system of psychic magic for the "power of the mind". I think we can assume with reasonable certainty that they will not be reversing that policy for Pathfinder Second Edition.

Holy crow, this thread is a piece of work.

If nothing else, OP is certainly zealous in his endeavor.

OP seems new here, unaware of how things work.

Klorox wrote:

CrystalSeas wrote:

You do realize that PFS is only a small part of the market for Pathfinder material, right?

Hundreds of thousands of people use Paizo material to play Pathfinder and never ever join PFS.

How do you think that 3rd party publishers survive? No one who buys their stuff is using it in PFS.

sorry, but the CRB alone weighs a ton, and the other books are not light either assuming I play a class from the APG and additional options from a couple other books, my satchel is full to bursting, and it's tiring to carry the half dozen books... no PFS for me. It might be something if I actually needed it to find games, but fortunately I don't.

An amazon fire pad, download your paizo.com store pdfs,

They can be on sale as low as $20 sometimes.
weight of all your books in pdf in a fire pad: Zero.
Bulk requireI'm strictly a paper mand for all your paizo.com store pdfs: Zero.

I'm strictly a paper man, I have the greatest difficulties finding what I'm looking for in a .pdf format... plus investing in an electronic reader AND the .pdf collection to go with it is not withing my budgetary possibilities. so, no.

Well it seems the OP primarily wants to play "traditional" psionic characters in PFS. Ultimate Psionics isn't going to help him there. This is why he wants Paizo to include psionics in Pathfinder Second Edition.

Bad news for the OP: not gonna happen.

Paizo employees have stated on many occasions that the mechanics for psionics as used in D&D Third Edition is not how they would want to see it in their system, and that is why they have eventually created their own system of psychic magic for the "power of the mind". I think we can assume with reasonable certainty that they will not be reversing that policy for Pathfinder Second Edition.

I wonder if he'd have been happy if they'd called them "psychic powers" instead of "psychic magic".

Or if it's the particular 3.0/Dreamscarred implementation he's tied to.

Still on the more general question - outside of RPG rules, I can think of very few fantasy genre works that use "psionics" as a term. Even if their power is more psychic like than magic like, the term itself is mostly used with more science fictiony settings. Or superhero comics.

Actually, and I'm just guessing because after all that I really have no idea what the OP wants other than, psionics, but not really like what they have in D&D so far, has anyone thought about using the kineticist as a base for designing psionic classes? Seems it could work very well.

PFS is a waste. Find a good home group and make your g+$@%% psionic character and just play. That's all there is to it.

Is it bad that I read this thread title and get Gangnam Style in my head?

Edit: Also, suggestions go here.

Psionics is deemed too scientific by some

... who is this “some”?

Actually, and I'm just guessing because after all that I really have no idea what the OP wants other than, psionics, but not really like what they have in D&D so far

First, I am an old grodnard who has very fond memories of 2nd ed AD&D the psionics handbook by Steve Winter, as well as the other psionics supplements: The Will and the Way, Player's option Skills and powers, and heck... the entire DARK SUN setting.

but, I think Paizo is on the right track with what they have done regard the occult adventures. (*3e D&d psionics was a bastardization. which was an admitted plagiarization by Bruce robert Cordell, the quote was something about how he'd been too busy with poke'mon tournaments, and writing an updated 2nd ed psi for 3e would have been "too hard, so I just copied all the stuff about wizards and changed the labels". 3.0 &3.5 psionics is not psionics as it once was, it is a mage with a pet rock... who as I recall, lathered up in an oilly sheen and rainbows sprout from his loins when "casting spells".)
for those who liked 3.0 and 3.5 "psionics" you have all the archetype varieties of the psychic class, and the occultist battle host and panoply savant (psychic mage and psywarrior). for the diablo 2 crowd, you have the necrocultist...
there is also the third party outstanding work by DreamScared press.

but I see what they've (pathfinder) have done with the Occultist class and I say that the implement system and mental focus, focus powers mechanic can be a superior method to recovering the flavor and feel of 2nd ed psionics.

These tools can erase the flaws of the 2nd ed system: nova blasting, 3rd level characters lobbing "disintegrate" about and dice rolled "wild talents". these things went BYE BYE.

*an added plus, "they get it".
At the minimum, they have someone who knows the jargon and culture among psychics (not the charlatans, the real ones who help the police solve cases), and/or
they have someone who knows what it feels like to read an object via psychometry, to see an aura, to give a psychic reading, to read a mind, to astral project, use clairvoyance (called remote viewing these days), had precognitive dreams or precognitive intuitions, or other psychic experiences...

the mechanic of resonance powers, base powers, focus powers, and mental focus feels VERY much like how psionics worked in 2nd ed (*when the actual books were read, and rules were being followed) and bit like it is described among the real psychics.

"contingent" and "continual" abilities can be represented not only as investing mental focus in an implement, but as a trance state.
with combat round "action" powers being represented by expending focus.

If I was to write a Psionics book, I'd setup the base class to use a modular "archetype" with a variety of "trance powers" like Resonant and base powers, and a recommended list of focus powers from a much larger collection of psionic powers.

I would make it so the occultist based "psionicst" abandons spell casting utterly and be an intensely interesting and unique character to play.

for example:
Class psionicist
class features
Archetype
module: "blind warrior"
description: you have lost your sight permanently, but uses all of your normal sense and psychic gifts to perceive spatially.
resonant power: supernatural awareness
base power: danger sense
focus power, glimpse, a focus power like the "sift" knack.
Recommended advancement focus powers - recommendations regarding what focus powers to learn as you advance in class levels, that fit this character's theme...

but, the player DOESN'T have to follow those recommendations...
If the blind warrior want to "heat" his sword to add fire damage that can be the player's choice.

Benefits: massive customization options through a wider selection of focus powers.
a unique character class that is separate from spell casters.
A class with a feel and very rich flavor.

has anyone thought about using the kineticist as a base for designing psionic classes? Seems it could work very well.

I have and I don't like it. it smacks too much of being a comic book superhero: the powers are "At a whim" and as far as I have read don't have limits to their use, unless they are using "BURN".

thus an aether kineticist 4th level can use 400lbs of strength all day (for a round with burn: 4,000 lbs), and a 9th could fly all day (Jean Grey, eat your heart out). Honestly, I hope I am wrong about that.

I'll level with you. For a while there, I thought you were a troll.

I didn't think you were a malicious troll. You weren't starting bitter arguments. No, I thought you were the best kind of troll, a true master of the craft, getting a host of bemused characters to respond to you, and then each other, and wander about through this conversation you'd created. I thought you a proper gadfly.

New account, never posted before, rambling more or less incoherently, deliberately provocative to fellow posters ("the peanut gallery"), interrupts whatever the topic was (I still can't tell) with a monster of a poorly written piece of what I presume to be original fiction. It thought you were a troll, and I even thought I'd been baited, goaded into responding. But more than that, you impressed me. I found it a joy to watch you work.

But now, I don't think you're a troll.

have and I don't like it. it smacks too much of being a comic book superhero: the powers are "At a whim" and as far as I have read don't have limits to their use, unless they are using "BURN".

thus an aether kineticist 4th level can use 400lbs of strength all day (for a round with burn: 4,000 lbs), and a 9th could fly all day (Jean Grey, eat your heart out). Honestly, I hope I am wrong about that.

Because who can make this stuff up?

I had a longer spiel about Kineticists here, but honestly, there's already been all-day classes in older editions, and some can go for quite some time after most of their resources have been expended in Pathfinder as well. Mostly martials, but the Shaman and the Witch can keep tossing out Hexes as long as they want. Even though I really like the class, I'll admit that Kineticists aren't super powerful, though there still seems to be a lot of misconceptions about it. I honestly still see 'Commoner with a bow' comparisons sometimes. Though I also see comments on it being overpowered as well. Mostly by not understanding how the mechanics work, like always applying Overflow when you haven't taken Burn, or thinking Infusion Specialization applies to Metakinesis or Utilities.

Though Kineticists are actually limited without Burn. Using Burn is taking that limit off, and causing strain on your body by going past your limits, which is represented by taking incurable non-lethal damage equal to your level for each point of Burn you have taken, which remains until you rest. I know a fair number of people are not fond of this mechanic. Even with 15 minute adventuring days, hurting yourself to try and push your damage up when most others don't need to worry about that is not very palatable. For your specific, non Burn-related points:

Telekinetic Haul functions as Mage Hand, meaning that it has a duration of Concentration. That's a Standard Action every round to maintain, and a Move Action for it to move. Though unless your DM enforces carry-weight, being able to carry a lot of stuff is not something high on my list of priorities. Even then, the need to watch weight drops once you get some bags of holding, have a friendly caster can spare a spell slot to Ant Haul a Strength-based ally every morning, or you can afford some pack animals early on.

Flying should probably not still be a big deal by level 9. Some other classes can fly for hours per day by then, thanks to things like Overland Flight.