Chief Technical Officer
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YES! I'd love to see a dedicated minis ruleset.I just had a thought.
Paizo has no concrete plans.
But what if WizKids does?
Could "Pathfinder Battles" be the next in a line of licensed 3rd party rules?Let the conspiracy theory begin.
If *anybody* were to publish rules for a Pathfinder Battles minis game, it would be Paizo.
Logic has no place in nerdrage. I'm always baffled by the sheer stubbornness of gamers to use the secondary market. Its like a fear of cooties or something from buying off ebay, a local store that re-sells, or any reputable online store.
First, LOL, on nerdrage. So applicable...
It will totally be secondary market.
With both of you, I agree 100%. All of these minis will be available individually. Just not in fancy original packaging. Many times you can even get them CHEAPER than the original package on the secondary market.
I have never understood the vitriol directed towards random packaging. Who hated Cracker Jacks as a kid? The prize was random and we all loved it! The only reasonable argument I see, is where one other poster complained about the excessive packaging. It is environmentally unfriendly and a lot of work to unwrap a case or two of minis. I would love to be able to buy a case or two in a 'bulk' box. Non-retail packaging. I always shake my head when I have a pile of packaging garbage after opening a bunch of collectibles.
Just my .02. :)
Two more preview images have been added.
Love the vampire.
The chimera is OK but needs wings in a bad way.
I can also make such "predictions"Prediction 2: Paizo is thinking about minis subscriptions
Prediction 3: There will be a Runelords hardcover
Neither of these two would surprise me. I would find either of these two to be good developments. :)
Neither of these two would surprise me. I would find either of these two to be good developments. :)
I can also make such "predictions"Prediction 2: Paizo is thinking about minis subscriptions
Prediction 3: There will be a Runelords hardcover
Both are true. They have mentioned the subscription thing in this thread, and the Runelords hardcover was announced an gencon. There is already a product page to preorder it.
I see at least one now. I'm catching up on my reading now that the kids are in bed. I'm a bit old and slow.
The chimera is OK but needs wings in a bad way.
+1
I am grateful, though, that they are doing a chimera with a green head, and not repeating one of the dragon heads from the two DDM chimeras.
Anyway, could we get a new preview picture of a mini every day or so (or, if it has to be stretched out, every week)? Just, if you have any of a protean or semitransparent astradaemon mini, please don't post them until after noon; I don't want my coworkers wondering why I squealed like a little girl on my lunchbreak.
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It will totally be secondary market.
With both of you, I agree 100%. All of these minis will be available individually. Just not in fancy original packaging. Many times you can even get them CHEAPER than the original package on the secondary market.
I have never understood the vitriol directed towards random packaging.
Actually that quote was from KaeYoss.
But the general sentiment is the same. All these miniatures will be available individually, whether directly from Paizo or through retailers like Auggies that only sell miniatures in singles. Then there is Ebay. :-)
I agree that all the extra packaging is unfortunate. Wizkids knows better than anyone what works and what doesn't work. They have had both success and failure. They will package and market these things in a way they think will not only cover the very high cost to manufacture, but hopefully turn a profit. Afterall they are a business.
Later,
Mazra
WotC apparently just announced non-randomized minis in themed packs, for those who want such things, along with a diceless minis game. Click here and scroll down to 11:50.+1 WotC
-1 Paizo.If WotC can offer nonrandomized miniatures, why can't Paizo?
You do know that you're being hostile just for the heck of it? Because you know that Paizo is going to release "Encounter Packs" that are non-random, and still you are flamebaiting here.
Neither of these two would surprise me. I would find either of these two to be good developments. :)
I can also make such "predictions"Prediction 2: Paizo is thinking about minis subscriptions
Prediction 3: There will be a Runelords hardcover
Both are true. They have mentioned the subscription thing in this thread, and the Runelords hardcover was announced an gencon. There is already a product page to preorder it.
Damn I'm good!
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You do know that you're being hostile just for the heck of it? Because you know that Paizo is going to release "Encounter Packs" that are non-random, and still you are flamebaiting here.WotC apparently just announced non-randomized minis in themed packs, for those who want such things, along with a diceless minis game. Click here and scroll down to 11:50.+1 WotC
-1 Paizo.If WotC can offer nonrandomized miniatures, why can't Paizo?
Flag and move on is the best strategy.
So how does the whole trade in DDM minis for Paizo ones going to work?
So how does the whole trade in DDM minis for Paizo ones going to work?
What about doing some sort of mass combat rules for the minis? You could use both the WhizKids and Reaper minis (so Kyra is the same whether she is in plastic or metal). And then set those rules up to do the large combats in some of the APs or modules. For example, in Kingmaker there are some mass combat rules which you could still use, or you get out the minis and use the mini rules to do the same combats.
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What about doing some sort of mass combat rules for the minis? You could use both the WhizKids and Reaper minis (so Kyra is the same whether she is in plastic or metal). And then set those rules up to do the large combats in some of the APs or modules. For example, in Kingmaker there are some mass combat rules which you could still use, or you get out the minis and use the mini rules to do the same combats.
Building on the idea of each character/monster having a stat block for a tactical miniature game. Why not use a point system, say 20 points a side for small battles, 100 or 1000 for epic scale and have each corresponding miniature have a cost.
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After Googling "Chimera" and looking at the images, only about half of the Chimera images had wings. The sculpts and art from long ago, the Chimera did not have wings. Typically the body was based on the beast in the center.
The one thing that excites me about the Paizo's release is that they bring a new look to miniatures. I need to remind myself of this and applaud their uniqueness. Like the Dire Rat; it is unlike any other in miniature. As a result, it would make a good Dire Rat boss.
I am now cool with the idea of a wingless Chimera, and lookforward to getting one.
Later,
Mazra
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After Googling "Chimera" and looking at the images, only about half of the Chimera images had wings. The sculpts and art from long ago, the Chimera did not have wings. Typically the body was based on the beast in the center.
The one thing that excites me about the Paizo's release is that they bring a new look to miniatures. I need to remind myself of this and applaud their uniqueness. Like the Dire Rat; it is unlike any other in miniature. As a result, it would make a good Dire Rat boss.
I am now cool with the idea of a wingless Chimera, and lookforward to getting one.
Later,
Mazra
I really would rather it have wings to match the Bestiary entry. Can't wait to actually see these things and not the digital sculpts.
After Googling "Chimera" and looking at the images, only about half of the Chimera images had wings.
After opening the Bestiary and looking at the Chimera, all of the Chimera images had wings. :P Since those are Pathfinder miniatures, they should look like Pathfinder critters.
After opening the Bestiary and looking at the Chimera, all of the Chimera images had wings. :P Since those are Pathfinder miniatures, they should look like Pathfinder critters.After Googling "Chimera" and looking at the images, only about half of the Chimera images had wings.
There is a wingless Chimera in the Serpent Skull AP.
Regarding a minis game, I'd suggest going in the point-buy skirmish game (ala GW's Mordheim or Necromunda - or maybe Privateer Press' Hordes or Warmachine) rather than a DDM/M:TG type game, where the powers and rarity is tied directly to the individual mini.
Admittedly I'll probably never play the game, but as others have pointed out, a minis game might expand the buyer base.
There is a wingless Chimera in the Serpent Skull AP.After opening the Bestiary and looking at the Chimera, all of the Chimera images had wings. :P Since those are Pathfinder miniatures, they should look like Pathfinder critters.After Googling "Chimera" and looking at the images, only about half of the Chimera images had wings.
If I were a betting person, I'd bet good money that this is another case of faulty art that was submitted too late to be corrected.
PF Chimeras are winged. The Bestiary entry references their wings and flight several times. Serpent's Skull even mentions aerial encounters with chimeras.
So it would be best to have the chimera be winged. Might not be too late to change this.
Regarding a minis game, I'd suggest going in the point-buy skirmish game (ala GW's Mordheim or Necromunda - or maybe Privateer Press' Hordes or Warmachine) rather than a DDM/M:TG type game, where the powers and rarity is tied directly to the individual mini.
Can you tell me a bit more about this point-buy concept in wargames? I'm not a wargamer, I have played some rounds of DDM, but that's it.
Do you get to pick the abilities for each figure you have and just pay the cost? Are there specified lists for different kinds of units?
Make shift list: 8/7/01
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Small:
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Huge, Special:
Can you tell me a bit more about this point-buy concept in wargames? I'm not a wargamer, I have played some rounds of DDM, but that's it.
Do you get to pick the abilities for each figure you have and just pay the cost? Are there specified lists for different kinds of units?
It depends on the game. Some require the figure to be statted up EXACTLY like the figure is build. So, no grenades on the belt, no grenades in the stat block. Some don't.
Some let you build your own in a highly customizable way. Some have set stats for set figures. A third option in that vein is to run campaigns, and your genero models can become special figures, gain victory points/xp, and spend them to improve.
L5R used to have a semi-decent conversion style from their RPG to the war game, so you could play your character, then translate your character into the war game, and add in all the troops you had built up for the climactic battle, and war game that scene.
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I really would rather it have wings to match the Bestiary entry. Can't wait to actually see these things and not the digital sculpts.After Googling "Chimera" and looking at the images, only about half of the Chimera images had wings. The sculpts and art from long ago, the Chimera did not have wings. Typically the body was based on the beast in the center.
The one thing that excites me about the Paizo's release is that they bring a new look to miniatures. I need to remind myself of this and applaud their uniqueness. Like the Dire Rat; it is unlike any other in miniature. As a result, it would make a good Dire Rat boss.
I am now cool with the idea of a wingless Chimera, and lookforward to getting one.
Later,
Mazra
WizKids is working on trying to get some wings on the chimera. Stay tuned!
-Lisa
Is it me, or is the coloring on these figs reminiscent of the Batman cartoon?
I say that as a good thing.
I'm sorry, I know this is off topic, and I'd love it if someone made another thread, but I have to say, are people seriously arguing that a miniature can't represent a large creature because the company that made it doesn't use the D&D standard 2x2 base? You might have to actually glue a miniature from another company to a 2x2 base.Well I know that I for one don not buy the Reaper pre-painted plastic minis due their base, the lack of conformity of the base to the game I play and their terrible balance (tipping over). I buy pre-painted so I don't have to do any work on them, if I have to replace all the bases on the ones I buy them that goal is not met.
Precisely. Its not that you CANT, its that its more convenient that when its on the proper size base. 2x1 bases are less sturdy. Re-basing is just another step. Pre-painted minis are all about convenience. I paint metal figs almost every day, but I GAME with plastics. When you're on the go, throwing a bunch of dudes in a freezer bag sure beats loading up foam cases.
Here's a question and some thoughts that may not have been considered as a possible market research option or alternative to random.
Since you do have digital sculptures, why not load the images in a database and allow people to treat it like a fantasy shopping cart? They could input how many of each they might like to buy and you would benefiot in the following ways:
You would get an estimate of highly likely sales. You would also know which minis could be paired in the same molds instead of having to guess. These tools would let you better gauge costs.
Yes, you would still have some guessing since obviously not everyone who will want minis is going to log in and help with the data gathering, but you would reduce the guesswork by a great amount.
I'm not against random since obviously it seems to make things more cost efficient, however with modern technology it seems there should be another way to figure out what is needed. It might not eliminate randomness, but it should help reduce the amount of it required to make production feasible.
This is not a pro or con to random, just something that popped into my thoughts once it was stated that you have the digital sculpture images.
WizKids is working on trying to get some wings on the chimera. Stay tuned!
Woot!
Here's a question and some thoughts that may not have been considered as a possible market research option or alternative to random.
Since you do have digital sculptures, why not load the images in a database and allow people to treat it like a fantasy shopping cart? They could input how many of each they might like to buy and you would benefiot in the following ways:
You get trolls "ordering" tons of the really ugly minis and you have a huge mess.
Considering the behaviour some people showed in the thread here, you can't discount the possibility.
And if you're trying to get past that by getting some sort of commitment out of people, you won't get enough data, since a lot of people will commit to this before they get a price.
And even if you get perfectly well-behaved people, it doesn't help the original problem: If you do it non-random, your product palette shrinks like.... let's not go there, this isn't Seinfeld, let's just say it shrinks.
You see, they don't really need this idea to have a good idea about what will sell lots and what will not sell as much. People will get lots of orc warriors but not that many flumphs.
That means they know they can sell, say, 100.000 orcs but only 1.000 flumphs (I made those numbers up). The whole fixed costs thing what it is, this means they could produce the orcs for 10 cents each, but the flumphs cost 10 bucks. (more made up numbers). So they'd sell 5 orcs for a dollar but a flumph would cost 20 bucks. Nobody would get it for that price, so they would never be created. So there would only be orcs.
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I am also loooking forward to the release of these minis! Yeah randomizing is a pain at first but as many have pointed out, Paizo/Wizkids feels that it is the best model to use to both satisfy the fans AND make money (which businesses are SUPPOSED to do in order to STAY in business). As far as the argument of cost...NEWS FLASH...The economy has caused inflation so the prices won't be what they were in 2003! If I can convince the wife to let us have tap water and rice cakes (unflavored) for breakfast, lunch and dinner for the next few months; then I will be able to get a case myself! (JK)
Regarding a minis game, I'd suggest going in the point-buy skirmish game (ala GW's Mordheim or Necromunda - or maybe Privateer Press' Hordes or Warmachine) rather than a DDM/M:TG type game, where the powers and rarity is tied directly to the individual mini.Can you tell me a bit more about this point-buy concept in wargames? I'm not a wargamer, I have played some rounds of DDM, but that's it.
Do you get to pick the abilities for each figure you have and just pay the cost? Are there specified lists for different kinds of units?
This is based on the way GW run their games:
Each side has a set/agreed upon number of points to buy their army for.Each unit or single miniature has a base cost and there are usually rules for how large a percentage of the total army can made up of each type of unit (e.g. commanders, heavy artillery, special monsters etc.).
Each unit or single miniature has a base cost and a base array of abilities/ability scores.
You can then equip each unit or single miniature with extra equipment (could also be feats or similar things in a Pathfinder Battle game).
Representation, at least in official games, should be with official miniatures and should be equipped with the actual (extra) equipment bought for the unit/mini.
Each army/faction/etc. has a separate armylist with the units available for that particular army.
To couple this with a possible Pathfinder Battle game, I can see where some of the PFRPG rules can be transported easily over to a mini game. Things like feats can be bought as upgrades, two-handed weapons can give more damage etc.
Here's a question and some thoughts that may not have been considered as a possible market research option or alternative to random.
Since you do have digital sculptures, why not load the images in a database and allow people to treat it like a fantasy shopping cart?
They did something similar to this with T-shirts several years ago: presented a bunch of designs and asked for votes for which ones people wanted to buy. Turns out people are a lot more excited about wanting to buy something than about actually buying it when it comes down to placing the order. They didn't get anywhere near the number of sales that people had "pledged" to.
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Here's a question and some thoughts that may not have been considered as a possible market research option or alternative to random.
Since you do have digital sculptures, why not load the images in a database and allow people to treat it like a fantasy shopping cart? They could input how many of each they might like to buy and you would benefiot in the following ways:
You get trolls "ordering" tons of the really ugly minis and you have a huge mess.
Considering the behaviour some people showed in the thread here, you can't discount the possibility.
And if you're trying to get past that by getting some sort of commitment out of people, you won't get enough data, since a lot of people will commit to this before they get a price.
And even if you get perfectly well-behaved people, it doesn't help the original problem: If you do it non-random, your product palette shrinks like.... let's not go there, this isn't Seinfeld, let's just say it shrinks.
You see, they don't really need this idea to have a good idea about what will sell lots and what will not sell as much. People will get lots of orc warriors but not that many flumphs.
That means they know they can sell, say, 100.000 orcs but only 1.000 flumphs (I made those numbers up). The whole fixed costs thing what it is, this means they could produce the orcs for 10 cents each, but the flumphs cost 10 bucks. (more made up numbers). So they'd sell 5 orcs for a dollar but a flumph would cost 20 bucks. Nobody would get it for that price, so they would never be created. So there would only be orcs.
I think there is only one person who could pull something like this off.
LMAO, sorry, sorry.
I have some mixed feelings about the particulars of the sets, but they have all been expressed (repeatedly) earlier in the thread, so I'll not belabor the sentiments. Ultimately, I'm really looking forward to having PPM available to buy on the primary market again.
I do have a few questions about these:
1) What will be the color of the plastic on these? I ask because I know that the DDM used black, but I like the white that was used for the black dragon sculpt. While the painted black dragon looks especially great, the plain white version would make a really cool ghost or zombie dragon without the paint, or a really good base for people to paint it how they saw fit without having to go through the waste of Wizkids painting everything and then customers stripping said paint off. How viable would it be to offer unpainted plastic miniatures? I know I would be willing to buy some, provided they were at a somewhat lower price point than the painted ones.
2) Do you know yet if any of these sets will utilize clear plastics for specific figures, as DDM did for some undead and elementals? I, for one, hope that there will be, as I thought those figures were a nice touch.
I would also like to add my voice to those in favor of more huge/gargantuan/colossal miniatures, particularly dragons. I would be especially exited if you were to do a gargantuan green, as I know myself and others find our collections lacking without one. As an aside, if you were to do a gargantuan green dragon, and it just happened to come packaged with a white-haired, black-robed, wizard-y looking guy-much like a certain gargantuan white dragon came with a certain white-haired, black-skinned, ranger-y looking guy-that would, frankly, rock. I know of course that the names inferred herein are proprietary, but you could just leave those out and let us draw our own conclusions. : )
I know that WizKids has used different colors and opacity of plastics in their other lines (e.g. clear plastic for ghosts in the HorrorClix or the Invisible Woman in the HeroClix).
Alright; First I'm terrified that plasticrack has resurfaced, now that I've gone a year cold turkey. Second, I'd like to point out that while these are random "boosters" the packaging system is very different than was DDM;the built in ability to "almost certainly" complete
a set with a case is a nice touch.
The fact the large figs are willed into a bigger package means that cherry picking will be easier (good or bad, I haven't decided) and possibly the smaller figs as well since they will come 2 to a package. The crazy case/brick/Booster setup means that there will be almost no duplicates in the average FLGS display which makes impulse buying safer for the customer. That may breakdown for stores that stock lots of these but those stores are the ones that'll bust boosters for non-random sales so that's a wash.
The price point seems high, but let's keep in mind these are petroleum based products. If the paint jobs so far displayed are really final production value that's in line with the secondary markets going rate for off rares ($4 to $6). So this is right on point ( providing the paint jobs are really good in production I'm not sold that'll be the case).
I personally own way too many of these things already, but will likely buy more. Figure selection will be key though. Unlike many others I already have a ton of mooks but a good sculpt with nice paintjob will make another Orc or Skeleton worthwhile (I just don't need 5 of them). Figs that I don't have already will be a big draw though ( cough* Hound Archon). Weird stuff I'll never use will only be cool if the mini is badass.
I'm all for a mini game. At these figure prices though every piece had better be playable. I would suggest a game that encourages theme building as well since the lack of thematic cohesion hurt attracting new players to DDM SKIRMISH/BATTLES in my experience.
I was at Gen Con this past week and had a chance to look at the Beginner Box set miniatures that were on display. I was in awe on the paint job. I will say they looked fabulous. The detail on them was astounding. If all the miniatures look that way, I will be very happy.
However, that being said, some of the example photos online bother me a bit. They don’t show the detail that was evident with the Beginner Box set miniatures displayed at Gen Con.
Some of the examples like the Dire Rat, Troll and the Chimera. And I don’t mean the missing wings for the Chimera, I feel confident that will be resolved. But it’s just the aforementioned creatures lack detail. Doesn’t look like that many color choices. Like with the Dire Rat, it ‘appears’ there is only maybe 4 different colors. The brown of the clothing, the peach of the skin, red for the eyes and black for the nails.
The Chimera is the same way. Where there are more colors involved, each body portion (skin/hair) is one solid shade of color. All one shade of purple for the goat, all one shade of brown for the lion. The Troll is very similar in it’s one shade of green for the skin.
Not trying to sound like a negative Nancy, I just am one who is excited this has come to pass so I want it to really take off, as I know it has also received it’s fair share of opposition. Now on the flip-side, the Vampire looks great. A large amount of detail is shown.
I am still purchasing the minis (case already pre-ordered), but I just want to see the great detail and paint job I saw for the minis at Gen Con for all my PF miniatures.
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From what I understand, the pics we are seeing are CGI and NOT the actual pictures of the figures. Of course I might be wrong because I have been in the past and someday in the future I will be again. Paizo staff, could someone verify this? Anyway if I am correct then this is not the final coloration. Personally, I think the colors are just fine for my planned usage.
From what I understand, the pics we are seeing are CGI and NOT the actual pictures of the figures. Of course I might be wrong because I have been in the past and someday in the future I will be again. Paizo staff, could someone verify this? Anyway if I am correct then this is not the final coloration. Personally, I think the colors are just fine for my planned usage.
That was verified upthread by Lisa I believe. The pics we see of this set are digitals. The actual master sculpts have yet to hit. I think this is good, because the begginer box 4 was "meh" at this stage but the photos of the masters are leagues better, and these look good so if they are the same breadth of better then I am blown away already. I just hope I can get the cash to preorder me a case asap!
On an aside, I hope against hope we get fire giants as well as frost. I swear Fire and Frost giants were the most expensive minis from DDM ever... well that wasn't a dragon....
1) What will be the color of the plastic on these?
The answer to this is: "Irrelevant because they will put paint over it." :P
I ask because I know that the DDM used black, but I like the white that was used for the black dragon sculpt. While the painted black dragon looks especially great, the plain white version would make a really cool ghost or zombie dragon without the paint, or a really good base for people to paint it how they saw fit without having to go through the waste of Wizkids painting everything and then customers stripping said paint off.
I don't think they're going to sell unpainted ones. Adding that option would probably cost them money, since it's probably more expensive to go through the increased effort than the added profit would be from selling them.
So put Joe Cocker into the stereo, dim the lights, open a nice bottle of wine, and let the minis striptease begin!
2) Do you know yet if any of these sets will utilize clear plastics for specific figures, as DDM did for some undead and elementals? I, for one, hope that there will be, as I thought those figures were a nice touch.
I don't think we have any confirmation, but I don't see why they wouldn't. WizKids is already doing it all the time (or, at least, they have done it already), it's a nice effect, and Paizo has said that they're pushing for the best quality WizKids can deliver.
If it helps, I'll add my voice to the Translucent Chorus.
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I was at Gen Con this past week and had a chance to look at the Beginner Box set miniatures that were on display. I was in awe on the paint job. I will say they looked fabulous. The detail on them was astounding. If all the miniatures look that way, I will be very happy.
I was at the booth when Erik was showing Wayne Reynolds, and even he sounded impressed.
Unpainted "blacks" would actually be cool. There are alot of people who liked to repaint DDM, but stripping the paint off was a pain in the butt. WotC never did it but people asked repeatedly. This would be a nice option if you could buy a box of ten minis without paint. Make it a random ten without all of the extra packaging, the painters won't mind the random thing ( which actually makes them cheaper) and would be less likely to step on Reapers toes.
I know mage knight did put out a rerelease of a set that was not painted. They did it once, fairly early in the life of that brand, and never did it again. Probably they determined it wasn't a strong enough seller.
1000th post!