Opinions on Skinwalker

More psuedo-humans!!

This is time it is a were(animal) Varient. So, simple question, what do you guys think? They have some... interesting mechanics and seem pretty nufty, if a little gimmicky.

I like 'em. I'm always a big fan of races with like 8 variations.

I especially like the Scaleheart. Killer Croc as a PC race? Yes please.

While I also enjoy variations, I kind of like the idea of starting with a core and building from there, like with the aasimar, tieflings, and dhampirs.

Also, I kind of find it troublesome that a portion of a race's stats are locked and have to be activated. Otherwise, you have to deal with massive social stigma and penalties to charisma checks (yes, I know that a lot of this board likes to dump charisma down to 5 and never speak; I am not in that group). Oddly, this even extends to intimidate, which means that entire feat chains and builds are invalidated for them off the bat.

After hearing some of the antipathy towards tieflings (or any of the nonhuman-like noncore races; I am kind of antsy about the term 'pseudo-humans' even). Essentially, I feel like a GM will begrudgingly allow a skinwalker, but then punish the choice quite heavily. And, due to the fluff and how much of the race is tied into the shape change (both their stats and most of their racial traits), that it would be hard to simply hide the fact (especially since they take -4 to cha skills, including disguise). But can you avoid changing shape without crippling your character? While this can of course be an interesting character hook, does this typecast them into this role?

I don't think avoiding shapechange when not in hostile territory cripples the class. They get decent stats (+2 Physical stat of choice, +2 to another stat, and then -2 to a stat) normally, with an at-will +2 boost that raises another stat, but drops Cha like a hot potato.

In addition, they get a number of other nifty abilities when transforming, from Darkvision, to movement speed increases (and new ones), and even extra attacks.

My other concern is about the various feats and such available to them. Many of them have the language "available to were[x], [skinwalker y], and those take associate with [x or y]". While this works sometimes in the form of teamwork feats (since not everyone in a party wants to play a half were tiger at once), but it just seems vague.

It is like how I kept on hearing about all those catfolk raised by half-orcs, that learned the secret art of having teeth the size of steak knives. Too easily exploitable.

I'm not sure I like them on Golarion (we've got so many exotic races now it's starting to get an "everyone's special so no one is" feel for me), but I love them as a concept. May tweak them and make them a base race in a homebrew world I'm working on. They may replace lycanthropes entirely in the setting, or if not, they will be the source of lycanthropy (rather than vice versa).

Anyone else think of the vessen from the show Grim?

Ehhh...Wesen tend to have a bit of a more unique feel to them than just "Were-X" most of the time and don't really seem to gain anything from the transformation if that's what they are, Blutbaden being the notable exception, I think (you don't see Rosalee go ripping people's arms off, for example).

You could definitely play one as a Wesen, and it'd be pretty neat (campaign idea? Big bad Grimm, hide your children!), but I wouldn't have thought of it if you hadn't mentioned it.

I like the concept, though I do agree it can add to the confusion. "That funny looking guy over there. Catfolk, Tiger skinwalker, weretiger or rakasha tiefling?" And they could make things crowded. I mean I fell in love with the concept of an Ulfen/Irrisen tiger skinwalker, with 'salt and pepper hair' in his normal form, to represent a Siberian tiger rather than the Bengal kind. (I'd likely make him a Lore Warden for feat intsive builds) But I am hoping the people of the X, and Bastards of Golarion, help return to the 'core races'.

Half Elves are still my favourite. :-)

Actually, I've been pondering about a were-tiger build for a while now; those guys actually get sexier when they transform. I was hoping to have him "pretend" he was a rakshasa in disguise.

I dont really have any fave races though. I like to mess around with the race builder and create some weird ones, but that's it.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about but I really, really want to. Kind of perfect for my setting.

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it. I will probably pick this book up.

I don't think avoiding shapechange when not in hostile territory cripples the class. They get decent stats (+2 Physical stat of choice, +2 to another stat, and then -2 to a stat) normally, with an at-will +2 boost that raises another stat, but drops Cha like a hot potato.

In addition, they get a number of other nifty abilities when transforming, from Darkvision, to movement speed increases (and new ones), and even extra attacks.

Pretty sure they only have +2 / -2 unshifted, and only unlock that second +2 in their shifted form.

I would have liked to see a feat chain for being able to take full animal shape (like the bats have) for each race, but you I'm sure due to space those had to be scrapped. That aside, I enjoy them and I hope that some of my players take it upon themselves to play one.

Pretty sure they only have +2 / -2 unshifted, and only unlock that second +2 in their shifted form.

Nope. The base has +2 any stat and +2 Wis normally, then -2 Int, and then a further +2 when shifted.

I think.

I would have liked to see a feat chain for being able to take full animal shape (like the bats have) for each race, but you I'm sure due to space those had to be scrapped. That aside, I enjoy them and I hope that some of my players take it upon themselves to play one.

You know the worst part is they could have done that with no extra use of space by just making it a general Feat that lets you take the form of the animal you're a Were descendant of.

Turning into a bat is cool...turning into a tiger at level 1 for the price of a single feat might be a bit broken.

However, if it was a young tiger at level 1 (or young shark/croc/bear) and then at say level 5 you moved up to the regular animal, that'd be ok (as I believe that's about when bats became dire bats).

What I find odd is that Werebearkin descriptively are referred to as strong (the first transformation as a surge of strength for example), but have no bonus to Strength.

More psuedo-humans!!

This is time it is a were(animal) Varient. So, simple question, what do you guys think? They have some... interesting mechanics and seem pretty nufty, if a little gimmicky.

Imo, cool idea, horrible implementation. The limitations on transformation and forced charisma penalties are ridiculous, the abilities are sometimes too weak, many abilities are just subpar, and the traits that tried to be interesting look awful.

That said, I think you can do something with them, but I wish there were less arbitrary and more simplicity.

Ability Score Racial Traits: Skinwalkers are well attuned to the natural order of things and value passion above reason. While in their bestial form, they gain a +2 racial bonus to either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution (see Change Shape). They gain +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence, +2 to one physical ability score while shapechanged (1 RP).

The race seems fine with one or two major issues

First: Languages, none are listed.. do they inherit these from their parent races (See the sidebar)

second: Favored enemy and bane, are they considered something unique for these effects, or are they considered their parent races as well?

skinwalkers are pretty much the perfect barbarian race.

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Pretty sure they only have +2 / -2 unshifted, and only unlock that second +2 in their shifted form.

Nope. The base has +2 any stat and +2 Wis normally, then -2 Int, and then a further +2 when shifted.

You sure? That's not how I read it ...

skinwalkers are pretty much the perfect barbarian race.

Assimmar please! (I'm actually glad Assimar isn't the only go to for beast totem btw... Sort of anti-thematic. My angel killing people with his wings was weird, yo!)

(... My angel killing people with his wings was weird, yo!)

Was it?

I like the idea of them, but I don't think they've been executed well.
I'm in the camp that thinks it's kinda crappy the way they have half their ability bonus locked behind a charisma penalty (especially for the ones who get Cha as their shift-bonus!).

It just feels like they've been really short-changed so far as the build-a-bear system goes.

Very cool idea. Poorly executed.

They're essentially a 5 RP race half the time and even when they get the full usage of their 10 RP, it comes with a hefty and unnecessary penalty. I've been pondering some house rules to fix them.

Very cool idea. Poorly executed.

They're essentially a 5 RP race half the time and even when they get the full usage of their 10 RP, it comes with a hefty and unnecessary penalty. I've been pondering some house rules to fix them.

Unless they're in a setting where they don't un-morph. I'm soon concluding a campaign with were-folk that are pretty much the dominant race so wouldn't have a reason to turn it off.

Very cool idea. Poorly executed.

They're essentially a 5 RP race half the time and even when they get the full usage of their 10 RP, it comes with a hefty and unnecessary penalty. I've been pondering some house rules to fix them.

May want to look at the 3.5 cousins, the shifters.

Even if you're morphed all the time you're not a 10 point race.

How much are the 'features' worth? The states are a wash since you've already paid for them even though you don't have them half the time.

Is +1 natural armor and -4 to charisma based checks worth 5 RP?

My "quick fix" rules:

- None of that stupid charisma penalty crap. Really. There's no reason for this except to further shoehorn them into being a Barbarian Only race. That, and, you know, maybe someone at Paizo doesn't trust that groups will roleplay the downsides of walking around with a freaky appearance in town and feel the need to tack on a mechanical penalty so players don't just stay shifted 24/7. (Then again from how I hear PFS games go, this lack of trust may be justified...)

- You always get your physical stat and natural armor bonus, shifting just changes what traits you get. Unlimited shifting uses per day (seriously the only reason I can think of for why this is limited is someone at Paizo is terrified of at-will abilities). Swift action to transform, and a swift action to change your traits (don't need to change back to human, then transform again).

- Extra Feature still exists, but you start taking two traits whenever you transform instead of just one.

Honestly? The race is still underpowered for everyone except Savage Barbarians (claw claw bite hoof hoof gore) and they're a sad joke compared to real lycanthropes, but this at least makes them more playable.

The charisma penalty is a huge down downside. If it were reversed as a bonus it would be worth something like 10 RP. I wonder what the thinking with it was.

Dotted those quick house-rules above. (that's proper forum-ettiquette, right?)

Just breaking down the RP costs of three for anyone's curiosity (the three I compare never come out to 10RP, though there's a quicker sum-up of all the types later on): let's compare the basic type, the fanglord, and witch-wolves.

I'm working on the assumption that the race gets +2 / -2 while not shifting, and +2 / +2 / -2 while shifting; that seems to be how they're written (especially given all the skinwalker variants only list three stats, two for not-shifting and one additional while shifting; there's precedence).

The basic variant, not counting the weirdness with one ability modifiers only being around half the time, is a ~5 RP race. (Low-Light vision; 1/day Level 1 Spell-Like, +2 to a skill; standard ability array is at no cost. It also gets a +2 on Wild Empathy checks, which we'll call a situational skill bonus that grants 1 RP).

The fanglord is 6. ( +2 to two skills and no handle animal; otherwise, the same ).

The witchwolf is also ~5 (identical - RP wise - to the basic variant).

But what changes while shifting? Well, the basic variant gets to apply its +2 bonus to any physical stat of its choice. That flexibility is handy, but doesn't have a price, so we'll come back to it.
The basic variant can also pick up Claws, +1 Natural Armor, or Dark Vision, each of which are 2 RP. So it comes out to 6-7 RP (depending on how you view Wild Empathy); that flexibility has to account for 2-3 points to bring it in line with core races.

What about the Fanglord? Well, it doesn't get flexibility. It can get one of two naturals (2 RP each), faster movement (1 RP), or the pretty useful See In Darkness (a whooping -4 RP- -- but it kind of makes low-light vision useless, so we'll say it's 3 RP). At best, that's 9; at worst, it's 7.

And the witch-wolf is in the same boat. One of two Natural Attacks, Darkvision, or +2 to all saves (one of those things is not like the others). In lieu of an actual pricing for +2 on all saves, we'll just call it 4 RP, because that's pretty damn solid. Much like the standard version, it comes out to 6-7 RP at worst (depending on how you rate handle animal), and 8 or 9 at best.

(for quick reference on the others: the bat is ~5 RP (4 solid RP, and a situational bonus) not-shifted, and 6 to 9 shifting; the bear is the same; the boar is 6 not-shifting, 6 to 10 shifting; the croc is 5 not-shifting, 6-7 shifting; the rat is 5, 6-9 shifting).

The flexibility is a great thing, but it doesn't help that much of the time (outside the basic variant), when you take advantage of that flexibility, you're actually making yourself worth -fewer- points. Plus, its flexibility that's not really all that feasible in the middle of a fight (because, even if you -do- have Fast Shifting, you're spending most of your turn to change bonuses).

It honestly looks like they were worried about it being -too- good while making it, just for its flexibility. But in the process, might have over-estimated just how good that flexibility actually is. It looks like the flexibility was priced ala adding on additional abilities to magic items (take the highest cost, take 50% or 75%, something like that, of the second ability).

The bestial traits per-type also seem a little limited. While the race does seem a little weak (ugh. apologies if I sound like a broken record with that), another thing is that it lacks some heft to its options. If you don't intend to play a character who uses natural weapons, about half of the bestial traits are useless. Sure, sometimes you don't get a choice but to use natural weapons, but you shouldn't have a case where a chunk of a race's options are for something that -might- -maybe- -sometimes- happen. In fact, a lot of the race seems limited. While the eight (nine, including the basic) races are -cool- (if not the best execution ever), there aren't very many options among them. Even if you say all the options are available to everyone, they're chopped up across classes.

... That was long-winded. Sorry, it's been on my mind for a good month now.

Yeah, have to say I'm not overwhelmed with skinwalkers either. I have been looking forward to BotM and enjoy it quite a lot, but skinwalkers feel like a letdown.

The penalty to Charisma feels like the author created this race in a total vacuum. Yes, the more bestial races often get penalties to Cha, but how alien and offending can a skinwalker really be to the average commoner in a world that knows tieflings, tengus, or ratlings? Seems like this is rated through the Tolkien-lense, and rather unnecessarily so.

Instead of a -4 penalty I would say just increase the DC for Diplomacy checks towards other humanoids, and leave it at that. Certainly no reason to make skinwalkers less intimidating than the aforementioned commoner...

Yeah, have to say I'm not overwhelmed with skinwalkers either. I have been looking forward to BotM and enjoy it quite a lot, but skinwalkers feel like a letdown.

My feeling exactly.

I don't think avoiding shapechange when not in hostile territory cripples the class. They get decent stats (+2 Physical stat of choice, +2 to another stat, and then -2 to a stat) normally, with an at-will +2 boost that raises another stat, but drops Cha like a hot potato.

In addition, they get a number of other nifty abilities when transforming, from Darkvision, to movement speed increases (and new ones), and even extra attacks.

I'm confused. All the skinwalker stuff I can find says the get one stat +2, one stat -2 and one other stat +2 when in beastial form. Am I missing something here that shows they get a second stat at +2 before beastial form?

Rynjin wrote:

I don't think avoiding shapechange when not in hostile territory cripples the class. They get decent stats (+2 Physical stat of choice, +2 to another stat, and then -2 to a stat) normally, with an at-will +2 boost that raises another stat, but drops Cha like a hot potato.

In addition, they get a number of other nifty abilities when transforming, from Darkvision, to movement speed increases (and new ones), and even extra attacks.

I'm confused. All the skinwalker stuff I can find says the get one stat +2, one stat -2 and one other stat +2 when in beastial form. Am I missing something here that shows they get a second stat at +2 before beastial form?

The text is confusing. It says they get a bonus to one physical stat and gains other bonuses when shifted. So either that's trying to explain how they work and then giving their stats or explaining they get a floating stat bonus.

If I understand correctly anyway.

When looking through them I kept on thinking: Why does this one have X instead of feats? And the like.
And all those that sounded fitting for one concept I had, flavorwise I had to notice that this version has the wrong stats for this concept.

@Victor Zajic: I understood it the same as you. +2 and -2 are always and the other +2 is while shape changed.
Exception: The base form has the +2 while shaped kinda floating because it can be any physical.

The base form (that has no defined ancestry) can choose which physical stat to boost each time they change, all the others have it fixed. It is not that you get +6 / -2 all in all when changed.

My boyfriend is currently looking at playing a Nightskulk in my RotRL campaign, and after reading through these comments I may be making some house rules (didn't realize they got negatives to Cha while shapeshifted - doesn't really seem appropriate. As a GM, I think I'm fully capable of role playing NPC reactions to a scary rat man, thank you very much).
I'm thinking of dropping the penalty and instead swapping it for a +2 BONUS to intimidate checks, similar to the feral mutagen Alchemists get. That way he doesn't get penalized for picking something he likes, as opposed to picking a generic human.

Victor Zajic wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I don't think avoiding shapechange when not in hostile territory cripples the class. They get decent stats (+2 Physical stat of choice, +2 to another stat, and then -2 to a stat) normally, with an at-will +2 boost that raises another stat, but drops Cha like a hot potato.

In addition, they get a number of other nifty abilities when transforming, from Darkvision, to movement speed increases (and new ones), and even extra attacks.

I'm confused. All the skinwalker stuff I can find says the get one stat +2, one stat -2 and one other stat +2 when in beastial form. Am I missing something here that shows they get a second stat at +2 before beastial form?

The text is confusing. It says they get a bonus to one physical stat and gains other bonuses when shifted. So either that's trying to explain how they work and then giving their stats or explaining they get a floating stat bonus.

If I understand correctly anyway.

I think it's just redundant text ... or, and this is a REAL stretch, they get a +2 to one physical stat while in bestial form, AND also get a +2 to one physical stat when shapechanged in any way (such as wild shape or whatever else is out there).

I don't believe it for a second, but that does seem to be a possible reading.

" While in their bestial form, they gain a +2 racial bonus to either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution (see Change Shape). They gain +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence, +2 to one physical ability score while shapechanged (1 RP)."

On an unrelated note ... I suddenly want to make some kind of Witchwolf unarmed fighter. John Talbain from Darkstalkers!

The penalty to Charisma feels like the author created this race in a total vacuum. Yes, the more bestial races often get penalties to Cha, but how alien and offending can a skinwalker really be to the average commoner in a world that knows tieflings, tengus, or ratlings? Seems like this is rated through the Tolkien-lense, and rather unnecessarily so.

Are you saying that it makes absolutely no sense that transforming makes a skinwalker less competent at sorcery? Because that's very reasonable of you.

I think it must be a floating bonus... bear walker bonuses don't include a physical stat, so it's not just a redundancy. Maybe this is a FAQ candidate.

Antariuk wrote:

The penalty to Charisma feels like the author created this race in a total vacuum. Yes, the more bestial races often get penalties to Cha, but how alien and offending can a skinwalker really be to the average commoner in a world that knows tieflings, tengus, or ratlings? Seems like this is rated through the Tolkien-lense, and rather unnecessarily so.

Are you saying that it makes absolutely no sense that transforming makes a skinwalker less competent at sorcery? Because that's very reasonable of you.

The text says you take a -4 on Charisma-based checks to interact with non-shapechangers. It doesn't affect your Chrisma score in general*, and it doesn't affect non-interaction skills like Use Magic Device.

Though if someone would care to tell me why turning into a big scary werewolf gives you a -4 on Intimidate checks, I'd love to hear it.

*Unless you take a genotype that does take a Charisma penalty, and I'm not sure if any of them do.

Antariuk wrote:

The penalty to Charisma feels like the author created this race in a total vacuum. Yes, the more bestial races often get penalties to Cha, but how alien and offending can a skinwalker really be to the average commoner in a world that knows tieflings, tengus, or ratlings? Seems like this is rated through the Tolkien-lense, and rather unnecessarily so.

Are you saying that it makes absolutely no sense that transforming makes a skinwalker less competent at sorcery? Because that's very reasonable of you.

The way it's worded, I don't see it affecting sorcery... or any Cha spellcasting.

The way it's worded, I don't see it affecting sorcery... or any Cha spellcasting.

Fair enough. I misread the text.

The way I see it;

for base Skinwalker they might as well be at standard distribution. If just about anything beyond the core races is allowed there's no real point in un-shapeshifting so I'd rather judge the race in shapeshifted form. The +2 is floating so it might as well be a 1 race point thing.

The rest of the basics are standard so no more race points.

+1rp so far.

Animal Minded is 2rp despite me not agreeing that it's worth 2 given that wild empathy is only relevant to 2-3 classes.

+3rp so far.

Change shape is where the math breaks down. the 1 rp is already accounted for in the ability score modifiers, otherwise it would be less than zero rp, so it's a floating +2 rp race quality so lets make that a +3.

+6rp so far

During change shape they get a -4 to their charisma checks. compare to similar bonuses this is a -2 to a -6. since you can get rid of it I'd call it -4 rp.

+2rp so far. (+4 if I'm generous)

They get Speak with animals once per day, which is 1rp.

+3rp so far. (or +5)

They get low light vision which is 1rp.

Total is +4rp or +6rp depending on how big of a deal Change shape's modularity is and how big of a deal the -4 to charisma checks are.

So yeah. it's pretty weak. If we go by my logic, without the charisma check penalty the race becomes an 8 rp race. Personally I'm houseruling that they get all their buff choices when they change shape and getting rid of the charisma nerf. I think that drags them somewhere around 10-12rp which I am okay with.

EldonG wrote:

The way it's worded, I don't see it affecting sorcery... or any Cha spellcasting.

Fair enough. I misread the text.

To be honest, I misread the text myself as well and actually thought it was a point-blank penalty to Charisma. Regarding your initial reaction to my post however: you are joking, right? Because the Were-bat wizard is enjoying his +2 Int/+2 Dex plus (Sp) obscuring mist pretty hard in the meantime.

But my main problem lies mainly with the universal penalty to Cha-based checks, which involves Handle Animal and Intimidate, both of which make absolutely no sense being nerfed by shifting into animal mode. Mythic Indigo summed it up nicely, and I quite like her proposed solution.

What I would like to know is if all the sub variants (including those with a wis penalty) need wis 11 to get their spell-like ability. Or is it another stat for each?
The Gnome magic alternate racial traits all need seperate stats to get them, for example.

totally awesome
next question
keep 'em coming

What I would like to know is if all the sub variants (including those with a wis penalty) need wis 11 to get their spell-like ability. Or is it another stat for each?

The Gnome magic alternate racial traits all need seperate stats to get them, for example.

By RAW, yes. I'd certainly consider setting it to which ever mental stat they get a bonus to as a viable and sensible house rule, though.

The only question that really came to mind for me is "Isn't the descendant of a lycanthrope a lycanthrope?"