Exploiting PFS Core exception for Wizards


Pathfinder Society

Sovereign Court

So I am starting PFS Core. I want to exploit a recent PFS blog entry entitled "Learning Exotic Spells".

Goal: Learn wizard spells from ACG, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, APG, ISWG, etc. al.

How: Assemble a list of modules with enemy wizards, magus or arcanists in them, so that we can collectively play them in order to learn non-core spells in PFS core.

Result: Wizards are, once again, the undisputed God class that makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly into their screens, because we have found a way to lose absolutely nothing in PFS Core, save a few petty archetypes and sub-schools.

So I propose that we assemble a list of such modules that have scrolls, NPC wizards (and more importantly, their spellbooks) and profit.

Shadow Lodge

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Assembling a list of scenarios like this, where you know what's in it for monetary/item gain, is generally frowned upon.

The Exchange

Wizards also lose too much from unavailable subschools and metamagic for Wizards to claim they lost nothing. Moreover, my impression is, even if a list such as the OP suggests were created, it would not include the most powerful spells lost in Core.


Since the spells still exist in the PFS campaign, can you use Limited Wish to duplicate them?

Silver Crusade

9 people marked this as a favorite.

If you're trying to get them to take away the access to non-core spells, threads like this are a good way to go about it.

Silver Crusade 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Colchester

Buri Reborn wrote:
Since the spells still exist in the PFS campaign, can you use Limited Wish to duplicate them?

My assumption would be that you can only duplicate spells available to you character, so any core spell or any non-core spell you have access to in some fashion: spellbook, scroll, wand etc. However...

PRD: Limited Wish wrote:
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.

You may be able to make an argument for non-core spells due to this, but expect table variation.

@taldanrebel2187: I would enjoy this thread a lot more if the intention was to theorycraft rather than to exploit, in the same way that I enjoy building an overpowered character but wouldn't enjoy actually playing them.

Even so, I am interested to see if this thread yields results.


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This thread title is combative and the thread seems to have been created to troll, or at least attempt to convince campaign leadership to repeal a Core rule that seems like a fun bonus to most players.

Wizards should be masters of magic, no need to be rude about it though.

If I'm reading too much into it I apologize, but as other posters have said these kinds of lists aren't cool even in non-Core.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

If you want to "exploit" the rules, here's how.

GM scenarios and apply the chronicles to your PCs.

Stop asking for a list of where <redacted> appears in <redacted>, to squeeze every last bit of cheese out you can. I mean I'm looking forward to running <redacted> in core, not for the addition to the animal companion list, but because I like all three scenarios. Likewise, running The Devil We know might have exotic spells on the sheet, but they're FUN.

Scarab Sages Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Fort Wayne

I do not understand the desire to try to exploit the rules. Some of the intents by Core is to simplify and make it more challenging. If you don't like how the Wizard gets hit on the spells don't play a Wizard. I for one am playing a Wizard just for the challenge.

5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some people have gotten the idea that by doing this then they are going against the idea of Core which is false. The idea behind Core is "Earned Access."

On a lighter note, hopefully this will put some additional thought into future chronicle sheets. Nothing like getting a mid level or high level chronicle with a Cloak of Resistance +1 (which honestly, should be on the Always Available list but technically isn't).

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Soluzar wrote:

Some people have gotten the idea that by doing this then they are going against the idea of Core which is false. The idea behind Core is "Earned Access."

On a lighter note, hopefully this will put some additional thought into future chronicle sheets. Nothing like getting a mid level or high level chronicle with a Cloak of Resistance +1 (which honestly, should be on the Always Available list but technically isn't).

Soluzar,

Going "I think we should make a list of what scenarios have non-core spells on them" IS violating the idea of core, just like listing that Among the Gods has <redacted> on it and would be cool to put on <redacted>* is. Chronicle fishing is generally frowned on. Chronicle fishing and listing a master list is especially frowned on.

Now I myself am a bit less askance at running something to apply the sheet to the character. Hells, I've been avoiding the Lissalla related Chronicals I've not played, because I think getting my slayer up to level 7, then running him through those, because he worships Lissala is cool and funny. The animal companion boon from *redacted* was scattered across two PCs from my GMing, and I did make a point to hold off on playing my gnome so I could get it on her.**

Normnal PC "What, we have to do redacted! That's insane!"
Lani: "Ah it's nothing, just like Sunday School!"

*:
yes there's nothing special about Among the Gods, I couldn't resist the thought of people scurrying to see what the non-exisitant boon was

**:
Maybe meta, but I also lost the complete DRagon's Demand sheet set on her because the game fell through. If we'd completed the module, she'd have leveled out of <redacted> so it's a wash. Also it's of limited benefit, because I don't want my small gnome riding a large axebeak.

Dark Archive

taldanrebel2187 wrote:
How: Assemble a list of modules with enemy wizards, magus or arcanists in them, so that we can collectively play them in order to learn non-core spells in PFS core.

I think that would be a very short and disappointing list. There aren't that many scenarios with spell books in them, and very few have non-core spells and a tiny amount have the more sought after non-core spells - and they are likely to be available at higher subtier than you would like to get maximum benefit.

You would also be on the horns of a dilemma if you had such a list. Because to get the most value out of the few scenarios that have spell books with non-core spells you would want to play higher subtier to get access to the most non-core spells, and therefore that would delay getting the spells until later.

As I said other thread your most likely fruitful source of non-core spells is when you sit down with other wizards at the table.

Quote:
Result: Wizards are, once again, the undisputed God class that makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly into their screens, because we have found a way to lose absolutely nothing in PFS Core, save a few petty archetypes and sub-schools.

Hyperbole. No teleportation subschool, no dazing or persistent metamagic feats/rods. And those were just the 3 things that immediately sprang to mind. Its likely a long list.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

I want to exploit...

makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly...

we have found a way to lose absolutely nothing in PFS Core...

and profit.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

I want to exploit...

makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly...

we have found a way to lose absolutely nothing in PFS Core...

and profit.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Took the words right out of my... fingers.

Liberty's Edge

Guys? Hey.. wacky thought here. Bare with me.

How about... NOT responding to the thread? Just dont respond for it or against it? THe original poster will get tired and move on to Yugioh or Magic. The original poster will never get what they are after.

The Exchange 5/5

or just twist the thread into something useful and fun....

Like, hay! I've got a Rogue with a high INT and I'm thinking of dipping into Wiz ... part of what would be cool would be the greed in the eyes of Wizards when they realize that my 6th level Rogue has 1 or more hard to find spells in a spell book that they can copy. I might even take a rank in Profession "Spellbook Pimp" or something like that. and pass my Dayjob rolls off as money from "access fees".

Anyone else come up with some game tactics (something cool, not something borderline skanky like a "cheat sheet" of scenarios)?

The thought of running a scenario to put the chronicle on your wizard might be a good one, except often the spellbooks aren't on the chronicle, so the wizard gettng Judge credit wouldn't give him access to the spell....

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

nosig wrote:

or just twist the thread into something useful and fun....

Like, hay! I've got a Rogue with a high INT and I'm thinking of dipping into Wiz ... part of what would be cool would be the greed in the eyes of Wizards when they realize that my 6th level Rogue has 1 or more hard to find spells in a spell book that they can copy. I might even take a rank in Profession "Spellbook Pimp" or something like that. and pass my Dayjob rolls off as money from "access fees".

Anyone else come up with some game tactics (something cool, not something borderline skanky like a "cheat sheet" of scenarios)?

The thought of running a scenario to put the chronicle on your wizard might be a good one, except often the spellbooks aren't on the chronicle, so the wizard gettng Judge credit wouldn't give him access to the spell....

Heh, the idea of having unique spells in core could be funny.

It's not snapdragon fireworks it's Sam's pseudodragon swarm

It's not create pit it's Ollie's Obulette.

Who's going to (in game) argue.

Grand Lodge

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Matthew Morris wrote:

Heh, the idea of having unique spells in core could be funny.

It's not snapdragon fireworks it's Sam's pseudodragon swarm

It's not create pit it's Ollie's Obulette.

Who's going to (in game) argue.

Good idea. "I will let you copy this unique spell providing you refer to it as Neldeth's Vanishing Act to spread my reputation".

Dark Archive 5/5

So the OP is looking to win pathfinder as opposed to playing an rpg for the rp, socialization and challenge. Nice.
How about starting out your lvl 1 core pc in season 4 and building up to playing some season 5 and 6 tier 7-11in core mode for real challenges.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
Result: Wizards are, once again, the undisputed God class that makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly into their screens

Really? Those guys are volunteers and deserve to have some fun too you know. They put a lot of work in so you can have your munchkin character. Cut them a break and maybe play ball with them instead of acting like a jerk who just wants to exploit the game.

This is the kind of character a GM should have the right, no, duty, to bury in a hole behind the shed.

5/5

We have a (small) group of players doing this very thing in our Lodge. (The OP may be one of them, for all I know.) GM participation has plummeted, and the issue is killing the Lodge. KILLING it.

This is not a plea to the OP to mend their ways; they've stated that killing their Lodge is exactly what they want.

This is a plea to GMs, VOs, and coordinators. Don't run games for these folks. You know who they are in your Lodge, the guys who want to break the game. Don't let them. They can take their ball and go home, and the 98% of us can get on with playing the best OP campaign ever.

(Actually, it's probably in Paizo's best interests as well: don't give these guys a forum to plot the destruction of your OP campaign.)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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I have to say I despise the decision to allow wizards to have cool stuff in core, but to disallow martials from having cool stuff. That was a horrible decision. If wizards are allowed to learn spells that they find in a game even though they are not on the chronicle sheet, than martials should be able to purchase weapons/armor that they find in game too. Be fair about it. Both should get access to non-core toys or neither should.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

gnoams wrote:
I have to say I despise the decision to allow wizards to have cool stuff in core, but to disallow martials from having cool stuff. That was a horrible decision. If wizards are allowed to learn spells that they find in a game even though they are not on the chronicle sheet, than martials should be able to purchase weapons/armor that they find in game too. Be fair about it. Both should get access to non-core toys or neither should.

Gnoams,

I'm not aware of anything keeping the martials from buying items on the sheet. If you play <redacted> you can buy the merciful Aldori dueling sword on it. If you play <redacted> you can use the feats and archtypes opened up, even though archtypes aren't core.

Silver Crusade

If you want to be a nice guy to your players, you should schedule *redacted* as it's the only way to get antiplague in core.

Use your powers for good!

Shadow Lodge 4/5

You can only purchase an item if it is on the sheet. If you fight a guy with say a lucerne hammer, you cannot purchase one if it's not on the sheet. But of you fight a guy with some spell on a scroll or in a spellbook you can purchase it even if it's not on the sheet. This is what I'm talking about. Access should be the same for both casters and martials, but it's not.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

A wizard doesn't even need to have run through the scenario where the non-core spell is found on a scroll or in a spell-book; he just needs to adventure alongside a wizard who has acquired the spell somehow.

Martials don't get to do that, either - they have to earn their access by participating in the adventure, not by sharing a beer with somebody whose second cousin's best friend met a guy who took notes at a lecture.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Buri Reborn wrote:
Since the spells still exist in the PFS campaign, can you use Limited Wish to duplicate them?

Let me know the next time someone casts Limited Wish in a pre-Seeker level PFS table.

Silver Crusade

gnoams wrote:
You can only purchase an item if it is on the sheet. If you fight a guy with say a lucerne hammer, you cannot purchase one if it's not on the sheet. But of you fight a guy with some spell on a scroll or in a spellbook you can purchase it even if it's not on the sheet. This is what I'm talking about. Access should be the same for both casters and martials, but it's not.

I expect chronicles going forward will start to include masterwork or better non-core weapons found on foes.

Sovereign Court

Mike,

I'm pretty sure the OP was being passive/agressive sarcastic. He wasn't actually trying to get the GMs to cry or to compile exploits but to point out that compliling exploits has been incentivized by the FAQ. I believe he wanted to get someone (You) to address how giving Wizards easy access to noncore resources is unfair/biased towards what he (and presumably, others) consider is a class that is OP yet still allowed in Core. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you completely missed his point.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

deusvult wrote:

Mike,

I'm pretty sure the OP was being passive/agressive sarcastic. He wasn't actually trying to get the GMs to cry, but to get someone (You) to address how giving Wizards easy access to noncore resources is unfair/biased towards what he (and presumably, others) consider is a class that is OP yet still allowed in Core. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you completely missed his point.

Fair enough. Post removed. Thanks for pointing it out.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

John Francis wrote:


A wizard doesn't even need to have run through the scenario where the non-core spell is found on a scroll or in a spell-book; he just needs to adventure alongside a wizard who has acquired the spell somehow.

Martials don't get to do that, either - they have to earn their access by participating in the adventure, not by sharing a beer with somebody whose second cousin's best friend met a guy who took notes at a lecture.

John,

It is actually even worse than that. At present, that martial can only buy the weapon if it appeared in the adventure, and it was +2 equivalent or better.

Otherwise, it won't appear on the chronicle, even for the martial who fought the <redacted>, so he won't be able to pick up that cool weapon/armor/consumable.

Want a fauchard? Not only do you have to, probably, fight Derros to get it, but you have to fight Derros where at least one is using a fauchard that is better than a +1 weapon. I would suspect that, therefore, you probably won't find that kind of thing before the 7-11 tier.

And you will never, at this point, be able to pick up any form of weapon blanch, since it is never something that would have been listed on a previous chronicle, except, on rare occasion, during the time period it was being introduced.

Makes the chronicle for the crazy module valuable in Core, since I think it is probably the only source for access to fireworks in Core.

Scarab Sages

Gnasher wrote:
Quote:
Result: Wizards are, once again, the undisputed God class that makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly into their screens

Really? Those guys are volunteers and deserve to have some fun too you know. They put a lot of work in so you can have your munchkin character. Cut them a break and maybe play ball with them instead of acting like a jerk who just wants to exploit the game.

This is the kind of character a GM should have the right, no, duty, to bury in a hole behind the shed.

The OP is just a troll that hasn't GMd a single game of PFS. He doesn't care about the time and effort that GMs put into making any experience good, regardless as to whether it's at GenCon or not. All he cares about is "winning". So he can just have his fun and be proud trying to accumulate this list all by himself.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

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I'm sure that, going forward, there will be a few more interesting items showing up on chronicles, so there will be some access to non-core stuff.

I see that as an opportunity, and a way to make chronicles more meaningful.

I'm not really all that bothered by the possibility of spell creep, either (despite the somewhat ridiculous example I offered in my earlier post). I'm sure there will be a few players who try spell farming, but in the overall scheme of things I don't see it being a large enough problem to warrant doing anything about it. My personal opinion is that it would have been better to not allow PCs to transfer non-Core spells, but but the sort of player who would abuse this capability is probably going to cause problems in some other way if this avenue is shut off.

Liberty's Edge

Kristen Gipson wrote:
Gnasher wrote:
Quote:
Result: Wizards are, once again, the undisputed God class that makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly into their screens

Really? Those guys are volunteers and deserve to have some fun too you know. They put a lot of work in so you can have your munchkin character. Cut them a break and maybe play ball with them instead of acting like a jerk who just wants to exploit the game.

This is the kind of character a GM should have the right, no, duty, to bury in a hole behind the shed.

The OP is just a troll that hasn't GMd a single game of PFS. He doesn't care about the time and effort that GMs put into making any experience good, regardless as to whether it's at GenCon or not. All he cares about is "winning". So he can just have his fun and be proud trying to accumulate this list all by himself.

Whoa now. While I agree that the OP is most likely a troll, be careful about assuming how much GM experience has based on there number of PFS sessions. While this is a PFS forum, PFS is only a small portion of Pathfinder, and there are many players with vast amounts of experience as GMs without ever sitting down at a PFS table. Hopefully not your intent, but that "dismissive of anyone with less stars" mentality creeps up more often than it should and can really be a turn off to society play. Especially when it comes from a VO.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fomsie wrote:
Kristen Gipson wrote:
Gnasher wrote:
Quote:
Result: Wizards are, once again, the undisputed God class that makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly into their screens

Really? Those guys are volunteers and deserve to have some fun too you know. They put a lot of work in so you can have your munchkin character. Cut them a break and maybe play ball with them instead of acting like a jerk who just wants to exploit the game.

This is the kind of character a GM should have the right, no, duty, to bury in a hole behind the shed.

The OP is just a troll that hasn't GMd a single game of PFS. He doesn't care about the time and effort that GMs put into making any experience good, regardless as to whether it's at GenCon or not. All he cares about is "winning". So he can just have his fun and be proud trying to accumulate this list all by himself.
Whoa now. While I agree that the OP is most likely a troll, be careful about assuming how much GM experience has based on there number of PFS sessions. While this is a PFS forum, PFS is only a small portion of Pathfinder, and there are many players with vast amounts of experience as GMs without ever sitting down at a PFS table. Hopefully not your intent, but that "dismissive of anyone with less stars" mentality creeps up more often than it should and can really be a turn off to society play. Especially when it comes from a VO.

I was not being dismissive of his lack of stars. I sometimes forget that there is other roleplaying other than PFS. He very well could GM for a home group and just play PFS. I have known many people who do that. However, he is talking about making the GMs at GenCon cry over how his character breaks the scenario. That greatly offends me. I have however GMd at GenCon the past 2 years. GMs get the specials and new scenarios (the events that are always filled) the weekend before the event. Giving 4-5 days for them to prepare. That is a huge time crunch for anyone, not including jobs.

Roleplaying should be fun for everyone invovled, not revolved around whether the character is broken enough that it makes it unenjoyable for the person running the game.

4/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This was honestly one of my major concerns when the blog post came out. I didn't expect someone to come in all troll-style about it, though.

5/5

I agree with John F, this isn't going to be a problem (and I *hate* a lot of non-core spells).

Now which scenario has {redacted} in it?

Scarab Sages

Majuba wrote:

I agree with John F, this isn't going to be a problem (and I *hate* a lot of non-core spells).

Now which scenario has {redacted} in it?

I would like to say this isn't going to happen, but this hasn't been the first time I have seen something like this. Someone asked which scenarios had wizards with pit spells on the Pathfinder Society Facebook Page.


Serisan wrote:
This was honestly one of my major concerns when the blog post came out. I didn't expect someone to come in all troll-style about it, though.

>.>

...But it's the internet. Its going to happen.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

All:

I wonder if might dial this conversation back just a bit and try to refrain from name-calling, or impugning one another's character?

I don't know the OP (though, apparently, he is a player in my region), so I have no way to know if his original post was sarcastic or sincere. I don't think name-calling, or questioning one another's character is really the right way to address this, no matter how sincere we might think the initial post may have been.

Of the subject matter at hand, I can only say this: if a player attempts to exploit this (or any) ruling as a means to negatively impact the game, to do so such that it reduces or hinders the enjoyment of the game for other players or the GM, I will very much consider that a violation of the "Don't Be a Jerk" rule, and will enforce that rule accordingly.

And, honestly, we have means (at least those of us who schedule games) to mitigate the potential somewhat by not offering all of the scenarios and whatnot that have all of these little nuggets in them. I'm not suggesting that we never offer them, or make them impossible to play, but at least from the public play side, event schedulers have a great deal of control over this.

I think, in the end, the negative impact of a few non-CORE spells getting into some CORE games is probably negligible.

So, I would suggest that we just address it locally as each of us feels best, refrain from name-calling and questioning one another's character, and find a way to make both the CORE Campaign the the Traditional PFS Campaign successes.

Sovereign Court

In an effort to try to provide something positive, and perhaps a bit off-topic (so I apologize in advance; I don't know whether to have a new thread for this, but it has been mentioned already): it has been mentioned that there may be newer scenarios created with items from non-CRB sources. Which would be great to have.

However, I was curious if it's possible to add some of these items to older scenarios as well? Perhaps creating a CORE chronicle sheet that lists some of these items (as opposed to modifying the existing chronicle sheets of the scenarios)?

Perhaps that's impractical, but just figured I'd throw it out there on the off-chance it hasn't already been brought up (and if it has, then this post is moot, heh).

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Forgive me for playing devils advocate for a couple of short sentences (ignore the avatar ^^).

advocatus diaboli:

I think there is a legitimate argument to the point argued by the OP.

Imagine the following situation, we have a relatively new player and a small lodge filled with veteran players, who have player literally everything. Now that lodge doesn't actually play all that often, however CORE seems like a godsend to those people.

Of course the new player wants to participate in CORE, if only to make the table legal, however that player is not really interested in a simpler game, he just wants to play.
Now that player enjoys a number of non-core spells and would like to keep using them, if he asks the experienced players (who should have plenty of chronicle sheets)... should they keep the information from him.

The argument "maybe CORE isn't for you" doesn't really work, since without that player a number of other players don't have a legal table.

Why deny someone something he can always research (even if he has to spend money to buy all available scenarios) if it makes the situation in his lodge better ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

While I am not really keen on the whole CORE idea, I really don't hate it, I might even GM it, but I would currently not prefer a CORE table to a classic table. Making a table legal is another matter obviously.

I think the really big problem when it comes to CORE, is based on the narrative, a rather small number of people didn't praise CORE for advantages like simplicity and ease of access.

They were really happy not having to deal with options X, Y and Z which are terrible and destroy scenarios, and they could not wait to tell everybody about it. This argument, is pretty dangerous since it can easily offend players using (or even liking) those options, which results in things like the OP.
Excluding people and claiming that they are having wrongbadfun is poison for our still pretty small community.

So let me reiterate, can you break adventures in core, of course you can, especially if you work in teams, but since it is easily possible, it really isn't all that impressive.
Some adventures will obviously be a little bit more complicated, considering the loss of some options, but I doubt, that they pose a significant roadblock to experienced groups.

So just be nice to each other and don't try to antagonize the GMs since this is a battle everybody will lose, and quite likely result in dead characters.

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