Bladed dash cheese


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

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Can spell combat be combined with bladed dash? Full attack action says you cannot move during a full attack (spell combat is a full attack aciton, as of latest FAQ). Spell says you can move. Which is it?

If you spell combat in this way, can you still make another of your attacks a spellstrike, or does the bladed dash count as your spell for the limit of 1/round?


You can cast bladed dash first, and then make all your attacks. It works like force hook charge basically (except a lot better and lower level).

Scarab Sages

Yes, it's actually a very good combo for a Magus. Use Bladed Dash to advance and get in one attack (+INT bonus, -2 for Spell Combat), then get remaining attacks at -2.

Magi are powerful, this spell definitely helps. Working as intended though.

Grand Lodge

spell combat was erratad and faqd be a full attack action.

srd says you can't take ANY MOVEMENT during a full attack except 5 ft step.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.


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You cannot cast another spell after Bladed Dash, so no Spellstrike (barring Quicken but that's an end-game trick). But yes, declare Spell Combat -> cast Bladed Dash -> Move, attack with Bladed Dash -> attack as a full attack is legal.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Thread title wrote:
Bladed dash cheese

Isn't that kind of a "fighty" way to ask a question?

Sovereign Court

per full attack it isn't legal. you need a feat to do it with dimension door.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Sorvin wrote:

spell combat was erratad and faqd be a full attack action.

srd says you can't take ANY MOVEMENT during a full attack except 5 ft step.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

The rules also say that you can't take a full-round action (like a full-attack) in the same round that you take a standard action (like casting a spell).

The whole point of special abilities like Spell Combat is to let you do something you normally couldn't (like cast a spell and full-attack in the same turn).

Sovereign Court

faq here

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhe

Sovereign Court

Again the purpose of the spell is one extra attack not give Magus free pounce at lvl 4

Sovereign Court

Note full attack action specified no movement not no move action. cut and dry


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You can't take a move-action and full attack. You could however, 5-ft step and full attack. Bladed dash is not a move action. It is a spell.

Sovereign Court

It says movement not move action.dimension door as precedent


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you want to run it this way in your games, that is fine. Spell combat very clearly works with this spell.


Here's a hypothetical... Supposing I have a 13th level Magus who is hasted. I have Bladed Dash and a Quickened Shocking Grasp memorized. Could I cast the shocking grasp, then cast bladed dash, make the bladed dash attack, make a free attack for the shocking grasp spell, and then take my three normal attacks?

If so, I know what my next character will be. :D

Sovereign Court

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

Seems cut and dry. only movement is 5 foot step. dimensiona assault feat line makes this more clear.


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Sooooo..... Pounce is useless?

Sovereign Court

I want this combo to be legal as much as you guys but see no rules justification for it

Dark Archive

My Dwarf Magus loved this combo (and Spell Combat w/ Dimension Door later on).

Nobody expects the Dwarf to be the most mobile combatant on the field.


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taldanrebel2187 wrote:

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

Seems cut and dry. only movement is 5 foot step. dimensiona assault feat line makes this more clear.

Yeah, that's not true at all. Dimensional Assault sets no precedent. That feat line is working to override the limitations on Dimension Door, which contains specific language ending your turn after casting it.

Bladed Dash absolutely lets you move during spell combat. There is no question from anyone except those who appear to wish it were not true.


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Lipto the Shiv wrote:

Here's a hypothetical... Supposing I have a 13th level Magus who is hasted. I have Bladed Dash and a Quickened Shocking Grasp memorized. Could I cast the shocking grasp, then cast bladed dash, make the bladed dash attack, make a free attack for the shocking grasp spell, and then take my three normal attacks?

If so, I know what my next character will be. :D

Not quite, since casting another spell would override the charge on Shocking Grasp. That said, it is legal to declare Spell Combat -> Cast Bladed Dash -> Move, attack -> Full Attack -> cast Quickened Shocking Grasp -> deliver Shocking Grasp via Spellstrike.

taldanrebel2187 wrote:

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

Seems cut and dry. only movement is 5 foot step. dimensiona assault feat line makes this more clear.

Your mistake here is calling Spell Combat a Full Attack. It is not. Spell Combat is a "Full Round Action", that bears many properties similar to a Full Attack, but it is not, in and of itself, a Full Attack. This is the requisite rule regarding Full Round Actions:

Quote:
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

The Magus cannot take a move action, but nothing in the Full Round Action prohibits movement-- quite the opposite, there are specific rules for what happens when it includes movement.

As further evidence that you can move during a Full Round Action: Run? The action that consists of moving four times your speed in a straight line? That's a Full Round Action.


kestral287 wrote:


Not quite, since casting another spell would override the charge on Shocking Grasp. That said, it is legal to declare Spell Combat -> Cast Bladed Dash -> Move, attack -> Full Attack -> cast Quickened Shocking Grasp -> deliver Shocking Grasp via Spellstrike.

Ah. My timing was off a bit. Still, good to know!

Sovereign Court

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhe

Spell combat was FAQs to be a full attack action.

Sovereign Court

RAW the only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5 foot.The combo is no longer legal sadly


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taldanrebel2187 wrote:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhe

Spell combat was FAQs to be a full attack action.

Yeah... no. Read the question.

Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?

This has absolutely nothing to do with effects like Haste that trigger on full attack actions, it has to do with what kind of action it is. It "counts as" a full attack action for some effects, but that is not nearly the same as it actually being a full attack action. In point of fact, the rules of Spell Combat explicitly state that is it not a full attack action, but a full round action, and that FAQ does nothing but support that rule.

Scarab Sages

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As has been pointed out taldanrebel, normally you can't cast a spell with a Full Attack Action either. The entire point of the Magus's ability is to "break" this rule.

I always felt Bladed Dash was created with the Magus specifically in mind. Makes perfect sense that they can combo this with Spell Combat.

Sczarni

taldanrebel2187 wrote:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhe

Fixed your link for you ;-)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Taldanrebel, are you posting under two different aliases just to make it look like there are two people on your side instead of just you?

Anyway, are you familiar with "specific trumps general"? You are correct that the general rule is that the only movement you can use during a full-attack is a 5ft step. But the specific rule of Spell Combat plus bladed dash provides an exception. Specific trumps general.

Scarab Sages

Yeah, OP and Taldanrebel = same person... not sure if intentional or accidental. -shrug-

Scarab Sages

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ROFL, it IS the same person. Too funny.

Spell Combat lets you cast a spell. Bladed Dash moves you in a straight line as part of the spell. Therefore, it works just fine. This isn't a move action, nor is it a 5' step. This is part of the spell effect cast using Spell Combat. Nothing wrong here.

The dimensional dervish feat line exists because, normally, casting Dimension Door ends your turn, while these feats allow you an option of attacking during or after the spell effect.


I agree this looks like it works it's just your spell for spell combat.

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

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Specific overrides general.

In general, then only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step.
In general, you cannot cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action without taking a standard action to do so.
In general, if you move out of a foe's threatened space, you provoke an attack of opportunity.
In general, if you move and attack, you must move before or after your attack (rather tun move-attack-move).

In specific, Spell Combat allows the magus the take all his attacks at a penalty and cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action, as a full-round action. This overrides the general rule about how you cast spells with a casting time of 1 standard action.

In specific, bladed dash says if you cast it, you immediately move up to 30 feet without the movement provoking an AoO, and can make a single melee attack against any one target you are adjacent to at any point during this movement. This overrides moving out of a threatened space provoking an AoO and requiring movement to be entirely before or after an attack.

Since we specifically know a magic can cast the spell as part of a full round action (which already overrides how spells are cast), and that specifically the spell grants a move and an attack as part of its effects (which already overrides how moving and attacking work), it is clear that casting the spell as a magic as a full-round action using spell combatthe ability to combine these overrides the general restriction on movement when taking a full-round action.

This is not an official ruling from a Golem, but clearly this is perfectly legit, perfectly legal.


Spell combat breaks the normal rules. As does Bladed Dash, as it is a spell.

Consider this, you can move (as a move action), cast Bladed Dash (as a standard action). This would normally be your actions for a round aside from swift/free actions. However, after casting Bladed Dash you get to move up to 30ft in a straight line and make a single melee attack. Both of which would normally be a move action and a standard action on their own. It also grants you the ability to make the attack anywhere in the 30ft of movement, which effectively works like Spring Attack.

How? It's magic bro. And it works just fine.

It can be combined with spell combat just fine, and after benefitting from the spell you can do exactly what spell combat says which is make a full attack (with the proper penalties). It's just like using shocking grasp with spell combat. Except bladed dash just happens to allow you to move.

This works just fine, your statement aren't going to change it taldenrebel.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Sorvin wrote:

spell combat was erratad and faqd be a full attack action.

srd says you can't take ANY MOVEMENT during a full attack except 5 ft step.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

The specifics of the spell trumps the general combat rule.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Sovereign Court

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

You are wrong.

You also weren't present for any design/development meetings, so you have no special insight into "RAI". As usual, the best clue to what was intended is what was written.

What is written is that a magus using Spell Combat gets to cast a spell (which inherently means doing all the things that spell tells him to do) and then get his normal attack routine on top of it.

You don't have to like it, but your dislike can't cause it to not be true.


A pounce ability that costs a level 2 spell slot? So a level 4 magus can do it once or twice a day, giving up blur, mirror image, or plenty of other useful 2nd level spells? Or maybe a couple more times if they use spell recall and forget about their shocking grasp spell combat?

Yeah, completely broken. ;)


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability?

Yes, yes I do think they intended that. It costs a precious level 2 spell, and at level 4, is actually probably LESS powerful than just moving 30' normally and spellstriking with Frigid Touch.

Further, a level 2 character can now have Pounce thanks to Master of Many Styles and Pummeling Charge. You might need a new thread to be indignant about that one ;)

Edit: Wow, I didn't even notice at first--is that a THIRD alias in the same conversation?


Or a level 1 sohei and mounted skirmisher.


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taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

No, they intended for the magus to be able to cast a spell to gain all of its benefits, as well as get a full attack action.

So the magus as a full-round declares spell combat. He casts bladed dash.
He gets to move up to 30 feet in a straight line, and attack one creature along that line. He then gets to finish his spell combat, which is his full-attack sequence.

He alternately could cast any other level 2 magus spell he knew and had prepared, and gain those benefits instead.


mplindustries wrote:


Edit: Wow, I didn't even notice at first--is that a THIRD alias in the same conversation?

Nope, only two so far. Still.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

Yes. Yes we do think that. The Magus is one of only two classes that even gets the spell, clearly the developers knew what would happen. It is, at best, one of the top three level 2 spells in the Magus playbook. I'd take it at level 5, personally. Mirror Images and Frigid Touch are that much better, so throw it in next to Glitterdust. It's far from the most powerful spell on the Magus list at its level.

And yes, the FAQ says Spell Combat "counts" as a full attack for some effects. This does not even remotely mean what you think it means. Let's try a metaphor.

I run a grocery store that sells apples (full round action) and oranges (full attack action). I have deals that say if you buy one apple you get another apple free (all effects that trigger on full round actions) and that if you buy oranges you get them delivered to your house (Haste and other effects that trigger on full attack actions). I also abide by basic biological fact, that if I plant an apple seed it grows into an apple tree, and if I plant an orange seed it grows into an orange tree (basic rules-- not effects-- regarding full round and full attack actions).

Then one day, I decide that my green apples (Spell Combat, a type of full round action) are special, and I announce in my store that they count as oranges for all deals that normally apply to oranges. Consider the results of such an announcement. Does it mean:

  • That green apples are actually oranges now?
  • That if I plant a seed from a green apple, it will grow into an orange tree?
  • That you no longer get a free apple when you buy a green apple?
  • That you can get green apples delivered to your house?

Well. A sane and rational person would say that no, green apples are not oranges (a full round action is still a full round action, not a full attack action), no, green apples will not grow into orange trees (full round actions are still subject to rules regarding full round actions), no, you still get a free apple when you buy a green apple (because the FAQ does not change the basic status of Spell Combat from "full round action" to "full attack action", Spell Combat is still a full round action, it just shares some properties with full attack actions), and yes, you can get green apples delivered to your house (Spell Combat is considered a full attack action for Haste and other effects that trigger on full attack actions).

I would hope that clarifies things, because right now you are telling me that the green apples I sold you are actually oranges, and if you plant a seed from them, you will get an orange tree.

If that doesn't work, consider this: do you consider a rule an "effect"? Can you define "effect" for us, under Pathfinder terminology? Or, more particularly, can you explain exactly what "Haste and other effects" means, and explain exactly why that definition is the correct one? If you can't effectively explain it in a way that doesn't say "all rules are effects", then the FAQ you keep listing has absolutely no bearing here.

Or, we can fall back on Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is most often the correct one. The simplest explanation-- the one that absolutely everybody except you arrived at-- is that Bladed Dash + Spell Combat is perfectly legal, because Spell Combat has special rules, Bladed Dash has special rules, and specific overrides general. Can you honestly say, without intentionally deluding yourself, that you think it's more likely that every single person in this thread is wrong except for you, or that maybe, just maybe, the developers did know what they were doing?

Finally, a point of clarification: It's not Pounce. It has half the range, costs a -2 on the standard full attack suite, and gets a bonus attack at Int-2. It has its advantages and disadvantages over Pounce, but it's not Pounce.

Liberty's Edge

So could one use Spell Combat + Bladed Dash + Whirlwind Attack?


Midnighter wrote:
So could one use Spell Combat + Bladed Dash + Whirlwind Attack?

No, Spell Combat only counts as a Full Attack for Haste and similar effects. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that Whirlwind Attack is a similar effect to Haste.


The FAQ does not say "Haste and similar effects", it actually says "Haste and other effects."

Meaning, for all purposes Spell Combat counts as a full attack.

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

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taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

I am one of Paizo's developers. I don't see the problem with balance. Pounce is an at-will ability. This is the top-level spell a magus gets at 4th level. Not even close to the same power level.

Scarab Sages Modules Overlord

RumpinRufus wrote:

The FAQ does not say "Haste and similar effects", it actually says "Haste and other effects."

Meaning, for all purposes Spell Combat counts as a full attack.

No it means that it does for "effects." Not everything is an effect.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There you have it.

Working as intended.


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taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

pigs can't fly.

unless you cast a spell that lets them fly.


Midnighter wrote:
So could one use Spell Combat + Bladed Dash + Whirlwind Attack?

No, whirlwind attack specifies the Full-Attack Action, similarly to how Vital Strike specifies the Attack Action, and thus cannot be combined with any other type of full-attack like Spell Combat or Flurry of Blows.

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