The new Fighter and how it compares.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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OK the PFSRD is updated to have both the Martial Master and the Mutation Warrior archetypes.

We lose weapon training and armor training but gain an optionally scaling strength increase and spont feats. Greater Mutagen cannot be taken until 15 and grand mutagen cannot be taken until 19 which scales behind equivalent weapon training(for to-hit) by 2 levels. But weapon training does not catch up until level 9. Gloves of Dueling though change all of that, but martial flexibility means you can grab weapon focus and greater weapon focus on whatever weapon you want (at the cost of not using those spont feats for other things). NOTE: Good item for 15+ fighters.

You can't take extra martial flexibility feat until level 5, which means at most you can take the feat 8 times for 24 extra uses, capping you out at 37 uses. A human fighter would also have 14 feats for a base that you could spont chain from (6 feats by level 4).

The loss of armor training does decrease mobility, but you can gain wings by level 7, which works like the fly spell, making your movement 40ft. The bonus on fly checks from mimicking the spell should help offset the lack of reduced armor check penalty. NOTE: These wings do not require the mutagen to be active to work.

Without armor training, you have trouble benefiting from high dex. Even with grand mutagen you can decide to but your +4 into it. Meaning you can start with 12 dex, not boost item with items, and still max out mithral fullplate. Obviously a low dex with hurt your range combat, but you can fly towards things now. The mutagen is also a +2 to +6 non-enhancement natural armor bonus, meaning you won't be short AC. [I estimate about 43 by max, 31 by level 12].

All in all, I say with these two archetype, you scale well into high levels and can probably manage to grab only feats that you want in your permanent slots if you make sure to grab the extra martial flexibility feat a lot. Keeping the mutagen up should not be hard and you could take infused mutagen by 11 to stock up on emergency elixirs.

My problem with the fighter, is that I don't think it scales well post level 10, I think this archetype combo will.


While I personally prefer just plain mutagen warrior (weapon training, gloves of dueling, a rage like ability, and flight? Thank you), but this combo still keeps somewhere near enough the regular to hit level that the benefits can win out over vanilla

Obviously armor is a bit of an issue...but hey, I wanted to stick this on a reach build anyway. A well played reach build is its own defense. Being able to fly just means I can be a jerk about it.


Quote:
The loss of armor training does decrease mobility

Not really; a Mithral Breastplate counts as light armor (so it doesn't impact your move speed), and if you have the armor expert trait you can even push its ACP down to 0. Armor Training is really only useful for full plate, but since the difference between full plate and breastplate is only 3 AC and mutagen gives +2 natural armor... yeah, if you're not already giving up your armor training class feature, you are now.


I'll second Armor Training being gone as a good thing in comparison to Mutagen increases, as well as the discovery things. Armor Mastery as a capstone sucks, and any Fighter who wants to maximize their damage is going to be having Greater Penetrating Strike by 16th level, countering any other Fighter who has it, and any Barbarian who has DR/- will be treated as having 5 less.

I wonder if you could take Extra Discovery as a feat with the Mutation Warrior archetype so you can nab the Greater and Grand Mutagen discoveries 2 levels sooner.

Having Wings is either really good, or really bad; it depends on how it scales, since it says it functions as the Fly spell. Of course, being able to fly equal to your level in 1 minute increments is plenty powerful a combat feature in and of itself, and can't be dispelled.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Having Wings is either really good, or really bad; it depends on how it scales, since it says it functions as the Fly spell. Of course, being able to fly equal to your level in 1 minute increments is plenty powerful a combat feature in and of itself, and can't be dispelled.

I just assume it scales with fighter level, because otherwise the ability doesn't work or do anything of mechanical significance. Since these aren't rogue talents or feats, I'll assume they actually work.

I'm noticing the ACG has a lot of little inconsistencies like that.


lemeres wrote:
While I personally prefer just plain mutagen warrior (weapon training, gloves of dueling, a rage like ability, and flight? Thank you), but this combo still keeps somewhere near enough the regular to hit level that the benefits can win out over vanilla

I really like the idea of a fighter that can just use whatever weapon, and I can't for the life of me figure out what to do with 22 feats that is even remotely meaningful. Being able to burn 8 on martial flexibility, which allows me to spont grab feat chains seems like a great way to use feats.

At some point I feel like extra to-hit is wasted. A hyper "opt" build with just mutagen warrior is looking at +12 to hit and +16 to damage from class features. More dakka is great and all, but I feel like DPR is the last thing the fighter really needs worry about.


If you really rant to negate the benefit of armour training just grab improved Nat armor... increase your Nat armor so there in no diff between breastplate and full plate with mutagen...


The problem is still that fighter is an incomplete class. Taking away the abilities that make it functional doesn't help. What the fighter really needs is acknowledgement that any level that's just an existing ability scaling is a dead level. That's every odd level between 7 and 17 inclusive. Replacing the one good ability it has with the ability to fail at a lot of things rather than succeed at one thing is a bad deal. Mutagen Warrior might be workable, but it's not a better fix than lore warden.

Sovereign Court

Give Fighters a built-in ability to get monster abilities like grab, pounce. Full-movement in heavy armor, at higher levels.

Whirlwind, rend, trip, flight, dual initiative, distraction (dirty trick), bleed or blind-sense. Fortification progression. Ideally, these would be in place of bonus feats.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Give Fighters a built-in ability to get monster abilities like grab, pounce. Full-movement in heavy armor, at higher levels.

Whirlwind, rend, trip, flight, dual initiative, distraction (dirty trick), bleed or blind-sense. Fortification progression. Ideally, these would be in place of bonus feats.

Mutagenic warrior actually gives you fortification progression (basically) with the preserve organs discovery. If you can take extra discoveries, then I suppose that is via feats (not the class bonus feats, but eh).


Atarlost wrote:
Replacing the one good ability it has with the ability to fail at a lot of things rather than succeed at one thing is a bad deal. Mutagen Warrior might be workable, but it's not a better fix than lore warden.

I think spont feats has more merit than you are giving it credit for.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

one of the interesting things about martial master is that it can actually be stacked with lore warden...

free combat expertise, plus bonuses to all CMB rolls (on a full BAB chasis), plus martial flexibility to pick up whole maneuver chains seems like it could work out pretty well


If I understand this Mutation Warrior correctly he can take one hour to brew a dose of mutagen, he can have one at a time, and the effects last for 10 minutes per level.

So he has one shot a day with this thing. I really don't see any way for him to get another dose without taking a full hour to brew one.

Dunno seems underwhelming. Maybe as a lead in to Master Chymist, that might have some possibilities. But one shot a day is pretty limited, there is no guarantee all your encounters will occur during that timeframe.

Edit: Just checked, need 3rd level extracts to qualify for Master Chymist.

My thinking is now, that this is a trap option (much beloved by Monte Cook disciples to mock the rubes), no matter how good you are for that time frame.

I guess it is worth a few feats to be awesome in one encounter or so, but there are a lot of other ways to get flying with those feats.

Liberty's Edge

Well, as of 7th level, there's Infuse Mutagen, which allow more at 1000 gp a pop.

And 10 minutes a level is an hour or two by the time you're into the mid levels anyway. That's long enough for quite a few things to get done. And several of the Discoveries (Wings most notably) don't actually require you to be using the Mutagen to use them.


sunbeam wrote:

If I understand this Mutation Warrior correctly he can take one hour to brew a dose of mutagen, he can have one at a time, and the effects last for 10 minutes per level.

So he has one shot a day with this thing. I really don't see any way for him to get another dose without taking a full hour to brew one.

Not really. 10 min/level should last through 90% of dungeons or any series of encounters. Mutagen is only a downside if you have multiple series of encounters per day that do not have an hour of downtime in-between them.


So why can't the party spare a little time to brew another?


I put together a fighter with sample combos at the bottom


I think as long as you can get extra discoveries with feats this should be pretty good.


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Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I put together a fighter with sample combos at the bottom

its a spiraling loop... i feel like I could just hit F5 and get the same result....


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Personally I like Martial Master Lore Wardens.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I put together a fighter with sample combos at the bottom
its a spiraling loop... i feel like I could just hit F5 and get the same result....

Oops should be fixed now


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
I put together a fighter with sample combos at the bottom
its a spiraling loop... i feel like I could just hit F5 and get the same result....
Oops should be fixed now

kk it works now :)

Looks cool thanx! *hugs* xD

Trying to be less abrasive :P, sides, I am normally a very bubbly girl ;P


sunbeam wrote:

If I understand this Mutation Warrior correctly he can take one hour to brew a dose of mutagen, he can have one at a time, and the effects last for 10 minutes per level.

So he has one shot a day with this thing. I really don't see any way for him to get another dose without taking a full hour to brew one.

Dunno seems underwhelming. Maybe as a lead in to Master Chymist, that might have some possibilities. But one shot a day is pretty limited, there is no guarantee all your encounters will occur during that timeframe.

Edit: Just checked, need 3rd level extracts to qualify for Master Chymist.

My thinking is now, that this is a trap option (much beloved by Monte Cook disciples to mock the rubes), no matter how good you are for that time frame.

I guess it is worth a few feats to be awesome in one encounter or so, but there are a lot of other ways to get flying with those feats.

Hmm... a point. As an archetype combo, it is a bit underwhelming since it loses the constant bonus of weapon training. I'll agree that I am a bit wary of martial master as well (nice on the brawler, who has his own stuff, but not as much when you traded away all the fighter's stuff)

Still, flight for minutes per level, and other less important discoveries. And if you just take only mutagenic warrior (which only trains out armor training), you get the normal weapon training+gloves of dueling, with the occasional opportunity to get rage-like bonuses to strength on top of that (as it has been said, it will last you a dungeon once you get to a decent level)


lemeres wrote:
I'll agree that I am a bit wary of martial master as well (nice on the brawler, who has his own stuff, but not as much when you traded away all the fighter's stuff}

Trading something you're already more than competent as (and don't become bad at when you trade it away) for strength in an area you historically have trouble with honestly seems like an awesome exchange to me.

Ultimately you're still going to hit like a mac truck covered in explosives shot out of a cannon while on fire, but you're going to have a lot more options at your immediate disposal as well.

I mean, Weapon Training is certainly a nice feature, but I don't see how losing a +1-4 (and realistically, almost never higher than 2 in most games) to attack/damage is going to somehow break the class like some people in here are implying.


@lemeres
Idk, I'm finding the sheer amount of combos from Martial Master making trading out weapon training a no brain-er provided that you can make up the to-hit lost from no weapon training (Mutagen Warrior).

Getting wings is great. Thematically they are always there(which is badass IMO). Effectively you can fly all combat and over any obstacle. Flight just adds a whole lot to the character.


anlashok wrote:
I mean, Weapon Training is certainly a nice feature, but I don't see how losing a +1-4 (and realistically, almost never higher than 2 in most games) to attack/damage is going to somehow break the class like some people in here are implying.

Gloves of Dueling increase the bonus by two and are very affordable.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:
anlashok wrote:
I mean, Weapon Training is certainly a nice feature, but I don't see how losing a +1-4 (and realistically, almost never higher than 2 in most games) to attack/damage is going to somehow break the class like some people in here are implying.
Gloves of Dueling increase the bonus by two and are very affordable.

IME, they really aren't affordable before 11th level... It's possible to squeeze them in by 10th level, but it sacrifices a good chunk of your WBL that could be put to better use.


Lemmy wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
anlashok wrote:
I mean, Weapon Training is certainly a nice feature, but I don't see how losing a +1-4 (and realistically, almost never higher than 2 in most games) to attack/damage is going to somehow break the class like some people in here are implying.
Gloves of Dueling increase the bonus by two and are very affordable.
IME, they really aren't affordable before 11th level... It's possible to squeeze them in by 10th level, but it sacrifices a good chunk of your WBL that could be put to better use.

Yeah. But they do help in making the loss of weapon training sting which I think is completely mitigated by not being tide to a specific weapon. *Spont weapon focus does not hurt either


Hmmm assuming you did take wings as a mutation warrior, is it any kind of action to activate them?

Does it take a standard action like most spell like abilities, or you just can only fly a minute per day per level because flying makes you really tired?


sunbeam wrote:

Hmmm assuming you did take wings as a mutation warrior, is it any kind of action to activate them?

Does it take a standard action like most spell like abilities, or you just can only fly a minute per day per level because flying makes you really tired?

No action. I'm guessing the thematic reason is being tired. It is an extraordinary ability. You always have the wings around, even when not flying.


I have sample characters 20 point buy
lvl 12
lvl 20


lvl 20 version
lvl 12 version
Mythic Version

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