Is Mythic Adventures viable?


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I'm getting ready to run Wrath of the Righteous using Mythic Adventures. I'm finding that enemies are not viable in a mythic campaign, even mythic enemies. They do not have sufficient hit points and offensive/defensive capabilities to stand up to a party for even a round or two.

Was the expectation for Mythic Adventures really one and two round combats even for Demon Lords? Was it intended that the DM waste his time statting out Mythic enemies only to have them destroyed in 1 or 2 rounds? That was the design goal? Have the game designers stated that mythic enemies are there to be loot pinatas that mythic characters destroy within seconds of meeting them?

Some examples.

1. Fleet Charge and Mythic Initiative: The barbarian is bad enough given the whole Beast Totem pounce. Now we have Fleet Charge and Amazing Initiative. Two uses of Mythic Power and all characters gets two extra attacks on top of being able to charge. So with haste past 10th level, we're talking an average of 5 to 7 attacks using Power Attack and other such abilities.

To counter this ability, they give mythic creatures DR 5 or 10/epic and about 5 more hit points per mythic tier? How does that math even work? The stat bonuses don't matter because they are offset by the PC stat bonuses.

2. Damage Reduction: Paizo has turned damage reduction into a useless ability. Something written on the sheet that never need be accounted for at high level. There are so many ways to bypass DR in regular Pathfinder they felt the need to add more ways to bypass DR in Mythic, including epic DR.

I don't understand that design choice. Though DR is so impotent even when it functions at higher levels that it does next to nothing in Pathfinder. It is equally useless in Mythic Adventures save against non-mythic creatures.

3. Spell DCs are so high as to be impossible to make for mythic creatures. So battles consist of casters getting off some form of Dazing Spell or something like color spray and the physical damage PCs launching a bunch of attacks on the monster ending it in a round or two.

In regular Pathfinder this is still a problem for most brute monsters, now it is a problem for every type of monster and enemy. Then again in Mythic saves barely matter because the physical damage dealers are going to launch multiple boosted attacks to destroy any single mythic creature that wanders out.

I guess I'm wondering why make a book about mythic characters and not supply enemies capable of withstanding them? Mythic PCs far outclass mythic monsters, even demon lords.

It seems that quite a bit of thought was put into designing mythic PCs, but not much thought was put into how to challenge them? Or was it assumed that DMs wishing to make Mythic adventures would tailor everything?

Side note, why does the Champion, Archmage, and Trickster vastly outclass the Guardian and Hierophant? Why did they waste time building on a weak ability like channeling? Channeling is very weak past the first few levels. A Heirophant ability that doubled channeling damage should have been number one on the list if they wanted to make channeling viable at all at high level. When Archmages are receiving Channeled Power at tier 6 and Hierophant's best ability is immunity to crits (but not sneak attack or crit effects), there's a serious design discrepancy.

I feel after reading Mythic Adventures that it is a very disappointing book. It doesn't seem very viable if you follow the Pathfinder rules. It seems like running it would be nothing but a chore as you watch the players tear everything apart in a round or two, you wonder why you even bothered to write anything up at all. I know normal Pathfinder can become like this as well, but mythic seems to have not even tried to challenge the PCs.


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Here is a mythic fighter that couldn't easily kill himself

I think the issue here is that all your players went the glass cannon route. Which means they either win in two round or party wipe.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Here is a mythic fighter that couldn't easily kill himself

I think the issue here is that all your players went the glass cannon route. Which means they either win in two round or party wipe.

The barbarian has over 600 hit points planned. He is going guardian. Has a 10/- DR. I don't even want to list it all. The barbarian makes that fighter look soft and hits harder. I wouldn't think that fighter would last more than a round or two against the barbarian the PC has planned. You might beat the paladin given you're not evil. The issue has nothing to do with glass cannon.

The issue has to do with Mythic enemies being too weak to challenge mythic heroes. They don't have enough hit points, enough actions, or enough defenses to survive past 1 or 2 rounds against a mythic party.

The game doesn't seem viable. I've been reading on the Wrath of the Righteous forums. I see that those DMs are having trouble challenging PCs. It's turned into a chore to run it.

I'm wondering how others are running mythic to make it challenging using the Pathfinder rules. The mythic template is very weak. Are they tailoring everything to create a challenge for Mythic PCs?


Mythic is supposed to be God mode.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Mythic is supposed to be God mode.

God mode against non-mythic creatures.

Aren't mythic creatures supposed to be challenges for god-mode PCs?

I don't care if tier 4 or 5 mythic paladin destroys regular old Joe the Balor and his two buddies. Why is tier 4 or 5 paladin destroying tier 4 or 5 balor lord?

Isn't the point of mythic enemies to challenge mythic characters? They don't seem viable by my calculations. Mythic enemy scaling doesn't compete with mythic PC scaling.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It depends how you run encounters. I know many people like to go with max hp for their monsters etc...I sometime, don't even bother with that. I just play monsters how they are supposed to be played. Like monsters, intelligent dragons don't get on the ground to fight mr fighter with a magical greatsword, staying in the sky and frying them with his dragon breath and spells. Unless its a white dragon, they are essentially stupid beast who just charges like degenerate.

Kobolds are weak true but their entire tactics consist of traps and keeping their distance, which can be pretty annoying.

Wizards villains above level 13 comes with their contingency of course.

I have sometime killed pcs or put them unconscious and many admit that it was because of their shortcomings, my players are always trying to find ways to challenge my tactics, which is fun. Sometime, some encounters end up being challenging without any major planning, like shadow demons are ridiculous strong for their listed CR. There are time of course where PC take down my villains in 1-2 rounds...and guess what, it's fine. As long as everybody is having fun, that's all that matters.

I strongly encourage to read detailed descriptions of the monsters and their ecology to understand why they do, what they do.


I also have heard that the WotR has a lot of issues with mythic and difficulty but you can't take WotR as the best example of how to do a mythic campaign, it has a lot of things that worked against being a good mythic campaign.

That said, from what i have heard, there are a lot of changes/suggestions/advice in the WotR forum as to how to make the combats better.

How does the guardian plans to gain DR 10/-? If he is going Invulnerable Rager then he could very well end up with DR 12/- or DR 13/- from picking the increased DR rage power a couple of times.

My own advice regarding mythic is to either ban or severy change mythic vital strike, i know that (high levels+vital strike line+mythic vital strike+foe-biting legendary weapon+mounted charge+spirited charge) can get the damage of a single attack into the thousands.

My other advice regarding the barbarian is ban the human FCB for barbarians and ban the couregeous weapon property, maybe even the furious weapon property. That comes from having an Invulnerable Rager barbarian for the entirety of Shattered Star, and the barbarian was neither a CAGM barbarian nor had the beast totem, but still still wreacked havoc to the AP.

EDIT: One other suggestion is to treat each mythic ties as a +1 CR increase, instead of the +1/2 CR increase as it is now, while keeping the mythic ranks at +1/2 CR increase, as they are now. I know that this means that you are going to have to re-write pretty much everything from book 3 (maybe book 4?) and after but if you have the time and access to herolab then it can done (i think).

Scarab Sages

Make no mistake: you will have to substantially rework encounters to make WoTR work. An alternate statblock document can be found Here.


I didn't ban Mythic Vital Strike, but I made it cost mythic points to do it. One for the base version, then an additional point for each upgraded version of vital strike you use.


A couple of quick and dirty suggestions for the more powerful monsters like Demon Lords, off the top of my head:

- Try quadrupling the HP, DR and Resistances (maybe quintupling or sextupling for the latter two).
- Add in abilities that don't just slow damage, but outright nullify it (it's the only way you'll be able to slow down some of the ludicrous amounts of damage that the PCs can dish out). The Mirror Dodge power that Archmages and Tricksters have access to is a good example of this, since it doesn't just negate some damage, it completely negates all of it and allows you to reposition.
- Another, mentioned I believe in the WotR forum, is to say that in a fight against a Demon Lord, the first few strikes (maybe say the first 1d6 or 2d6) deal damage to the Demon Lord's realm rather than to the Lord itself. They reflect their realms, after all, and the realm is acting to support them. When a maxed-out-mythic meteor swarm is doing enough damage to effectively glass whatever it hits, seeing a giant chunk of the realm suddenly take that damage instead of the Lord should be impressive. And keep said Demon Lord alive.
- Give them all the unstoppable power, or immunity to dazing. Or both. Daze is another of those ludicrously powerful effects that should be carefully monitored.
- They get Amazing Initiative and Dual Initiative for free. No ifs, ands or buts. There's no other way for them to keep up with four mythic-powered turns to their one.

I agree that the monsters themselves don't have anywhere near the power that the PCs will possess. Even if the players are actively nerfing themselves, they'll still wind up steamrolling the vast majority of things.

Alternately, don't allow the PCs to take mythic tiers at all. Instead they get the mythic subtype, and can only pick from a certain selection of abilities chosen from the tiers by you.


@Eltacolibre
I understand what you are saying but there are times that enemies are scripted (and some times it makes perfect sense with the script) to do just the opposite, an example can be the final boss of shattered star book 5, which btw also serves as an example of a botched build.

Odraude wrote:
I didn't ban Mythic Vital Strike, but I made it cost mythic points to do it. One for the base version, then an additional point for each upgraded version of vital strike you use.

That is a solution but i think that it will most likely lead to the player not playing/enjoying with his mythic abilities and instead holding out for when he needs to use his nuke.


About the dazing blasting issue, i also suggest banning it or change/nerf it, the way i have nerfed it for my home games is this:
"The Dazing spell metamagic uses a slot 4 levels higher instead of 3 (metamagic rods of metamagic are priced accordingly), in addition each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect as a full round action."


Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:

Here is a mythic fighter that couldn't easily kill himself

I think the issue here is that all your players went the glass cannon route. Which means they either win in two round or party wipe.

The barbarian has over 600 hit points planned. He is going guardian. Has a 10/- DR. I don't even want to list it all. The barbarian makes that fighter look soft and hits harder. I wouldn't think that fighter would last more than a round or two against the barbarian the PC has planned. You might beat the paladin given you're not evil. The issue has nothing to do with glass cannon.

The issue has to do with Mythic enemies being too weak to challenge mythic heroes. They don't have enough hit points, enough actions, or enough defenses to survive past 1 or 2 rounds against a mythic party.

The game doesn't seem viable. I've been reading on the Wrath of the Righteous forums. I see that those DMs are having trouble challenging PCs. It's turned into a chore to run it.

I'm wondering how others are running mythic to make it challenging using the Pathfinder rules. The mythic template is very weak. Are they tailoring everything to create a challenge for Mythic PCs?

Sounds like Mythic Vital Strike. This char can block the first one with Mythic Dodge boosting is AC to 69 which should be very hard to hit. The second vital strike is probably getting through. This fighter then could grab Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization/Penetrating Strike via Martial Felexibility to better eat through that DR. +49/+49/44/39/34 2d6+67 17-20x2 That should one shot the barbar. This is assuming He doesn't go first but still had time to take a stance. EDIT: The haste effect boost the AC to 60 and 70.

I don't see either side being able to confirm crits with all the items and mythics.

IMO: Mythic Vital Strike is a serious problem. There are counters, but being able to do it twice via amazing initiative is an issue. This char doesn't have it because he is treating mythics as epics and had no reason to grab the feats pre mythics.


Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:
I'm wondering how others are running mythic to make it challenging using the Pathfinder rules. The mythic template is very weak. Are they tailoring everything to create a challenge for Mythic PCs?

Something simple you can do is throw lots of extra encounters at the PC. Find ways to make them burn mythics, once their power runs out their effectiveness will drop off very fast.

Spamming save effects should eat up a lot of the parties mythics via surge. Idk what to do about your barbar though. I have issues with the One-True-Barbar build as much as I do with synthesist summoners. I either don't challenge them, completely negate them, or sort'of challenge the barbar while wiping the rest of the party.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Piccolo Taphodarian wrote:

I'm getting ready to run Wrath of the Righteous using Mythic Adventures. I'm finding that enemies are not viable in a mythic campaign, even mythic enemies. They do not have sufficient hit points and offensive/defensive capabilities to stand up to a party for even a round or two.

How do you know? Have you actually run anything in mythic mode, or are you basing this on spreadsheet calculations?

Wrath isn't just a rock and sock'em brute force campaign. There are plenty of ways to fail that idiot brute force won't save you from.


I made a mistake in my first post in this thread, you can't use charge and vital strike.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I am running WotR with 5 players. We just finished book 3 and I have found that, as with non-mythic encounters, as long as it's not a 1 vs 5 fight it goes pretty well. For WotR, one of the things you should do (especially once you get to the third book) is have most non-random encounters have foreknowledge of your player's abilities and plan accordingly. These guys are the heroes of the crusade, most "boss" NPCs should have a dossier on each one (players actually find this in the Lost Fane). For the Mooks, I just bump them 1 level, this helps a lot, and I do max HP, otherwise very little change.

Another suggestion is slowing down the level progression. Again we just finished book 3. The players just got their 11th level and are at tier 4, instead of level 12 and tier 5 as the book suggests. This really helps to bring the fights down to the PCs and alleviates too much of the exponential expansion of power.

The first 2 books really need very little reworking. Book 1 is all non-mythic, so as long as your point buy isn't too high the players shouldn't be a problem. The 2nd book isn't really a problem since for most of it they only have 1 tier, and while the players will have a lot of fun using their mythic points they won't have that many and will have few extra abilities. Some times it's nice to just "win" an encounter. The players should have some chances to flex their mythic muscles and feel awesome.

My experience is that even mythic players can be slowed significantly by a decent AC. Sticking to the purchase limit rules for buying equipment should help to negate the "I have the best gear ever" issues. Other than that, just avoid some of the overly powerful options. I had to ask one player to give up clustered shot, because it was just too strong. Also, say no to foe slayer legendary weapon ability.

Talk to your players, let them know that some of these rules can be easily overbalanced and that you may have to have them retcon away an ability, since it can 1) take away everyone else's fun and 2) it can take away yours (GMs get to have fun too). Since removeing clustered shot it makes everyone else in the party have more fun in each fight and the fights last longer so they're more fun for me too.


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In general, I don't find much difference in playing mythic versus non-mythic other than that mythic emphasizes the phenomena (good and bad) already present in non-mythic. For example, mythic rules do exacerbate Pathfinder's "solo boss fights end rapidly", even against one or two mythic foes, and the "rocket tag" phenomenon comes into play much earlier (mythic path swift-action extra attacks at tier 1, Amazing Initiative at tier 2; level doesn't really matter much).

That said, the mythic campaign I'm playing in has still had some battles drag out, but those were generally against foes with unknown immunities or groups of twenty or more foes. When our arcane caster shows up to play, the latter tend to end rather quickly as well. Also, we aren't exactly playing optimized builds, so that helps keep things fun.

It's certainly viable as long as you keep that in mind. We're having a blast with it, and I can see us doing mythic again some time in the future.


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Mythic Adventures is by-and-large fine. It just suffers from something that the regular game also suffers from: a handful of options that are clearly too good when compared to other available options.

And then one combines the general gamer nature to gravitate to the "clearly too good" options with the game designers assuming a baseline where players don't take those options.

I can understand the designer decision - it's about having a game that's still playable for people who aren't optimizing - but it definitely leads to complaints about Paizo's adventures being too easy.

I do feel that the baseline numbers for 26+ entities are surprisingly low. I expected a much bigger gap between, say, a CR 29 and a CR 30 than there actually is.

If your players are perfectly aware of what the math looks like and still want to go completely bonkers on offense/damage, then start adjusting monsters up to where you feel they should be. What Alleren said above is definitely a good start.

For something like WotR or a homebrew 1-10 mythic game, you'll probably also want to disregard XP and just level the party at appropriate points. I suspect being limited to the XP budget of the standard 1-20 progression put a significant limit on what challenges WotR can throw at the PCs.


Zhangar wrote:
I suspect being limited to the XP budget of the standard 1-20 progression put a significant limit on what challenges WotR can throw at the PCs.

That is one of the main problems of WotR.


Hmmm I'm going to change a couple path abilities to better counter mythic vital strike.

Silver Crusade

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Since I have posted this times and times again in the Wotr area, so to keep this short:

- Either mythic characters are fine, or mythic monsters are fine, they do not work in combination, characters are just to good.

- Mythic rules break the encounters per day structure

- Mythic magic items seem fine (with the possible exception of mythic bane)

A 2-3 PDF "errata" could fix it.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Since I have posted this times and times again in the Wotr area, so to keep this short:

- Either mythic characters are fine, or mythic monsters are fine, they do not work in combination, characters are just to good.

- Mythic rules break the encounters per day structure

- Mythic magic items seem fine (with the possible exception of mythic bane)

A 2-3 PDF "errata" could fix it.

Any chance you could link to one of your previous elaborations? While I've played with mythic rules, I haven't yet run them and am interested in others' experiences.

Sovereign Court

IMO: No

It's a failed mechanic.


@Sebastian Hirsch
I also would like a link to a previous elaboration.
What do you mean by mythic bane?


leo1925 wrote:

@Sebastian Hirsch

I also would like a link to a previous elaboration.
What do you mean by mythic bane?

It's exactly like the bane weapon quality, granting a higher bonus and extra damage against mythic creatures instead of, e.g., dragons, elves, whatever. It also happens to stack with non-mythic bane weapon qualities, meaning that a +1 mythic bane dragon bane battleaxe counts as +5 and deals an extra 4d6 damage against mythic dragons. This annoys some folks, especially if you toss holy or some such on it as well. However, it also requires the Mythic Crafter mythic feat, so it isn't like it's that easy to make--you don't get very many of those.

Me, the concept of a weapon that does extra damage to mythic creatures seems a bit strange from a lore perspective, but it's not exactly unprecedented--a weapon to protect the common man from those who would unduly affect their destinies, for example.

Dark Archive

I will say for the most parts my party of 3 did wipe the floor with most fights. There where some hard ones like the fight against

spoiler:
the worm that walks in I think the 3rd books, the father of worms in the 5th book, and the storm king in the last where all hard battles in fact the storm king killed 2 characters in 1 round.


blahpers wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

@Sebastian Hirsch

I also would like a link to a previous elaboration.
What do you mean by mythic bane?

It's exactly like the bane weapon quality, granting a higher bonus and extra damage against mythic creatures instead of, e.g., dragons, elves, whatever. It also happens to stack with non-mythic bane weapon qualities, meaning that a +1 mythic bane dragon bane battleaxe counts as +5 and deals an extra 4d6 damage against mythic dragons. This annoys some folks, especially if you toss holy or some such on it as well. However, it also requires the Mythic Crafter mythic feat, so it isn't like it's that easy to make--you don't get very many of those.

Me, the concept of a weapon that does extra damage to mythic creatures seems a bit strange from a lore perspective, but it's not exactly unprecedented--a weapon to protect the common man from those who would unduly affect their destinies, for example.

Ok i didn't know that quality, yeah i also don't like it, especially because the book does a fumble (again) and doesn't say that the mythic crafter requirement can't be bypassed, thus it's allowed to take a +5 to the crafting DC and bypass that requirement.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Since I have posted this times and times again in the Wotr area, so to keep this short:

- Either mythic characters are fine, or mythic monsters are fine, they do not work in combination, characters are just to good.

- Mythic rules break the encounters per day structure

- Mythic magic items seem fine (with the possible exception of mythic bane)

A 2-3 PDF "errata" could fix it.

Pretty much this. Mythic works fine. I ran mythic version of the Shattered Star AP for a year and everyone had fun with it. However, it requires the GM to substantially rethink encounter planning. WotR mostly stuck with the old paradigm of encounter design and thus falls apart in the back half. Unfortunately to make that AP work you need to start redesigning encounters around book 3 or 4 if you want the PCs to be challenged.


Item Crafting feat requirements (and feat requirements in general) can't be bypassed.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Item Crafting feat requirements (and feat requirements in general) can't be bypassed.

No feat requirements can be bypassed just fine (for example if you want to create a metamagic rod of empower, the empower metamagic feat can be bypassed by taking +5). It's just the item crafting feat that can't be bypassed, in fact the core rule book goes the extra mile and tells you which item creation feat is needed for each kind of item (p. 551-553) and the mythic crafter feat isn't listed in any of them.

Don't get me wrong, i can divine the intent but i shouldn't have to, nor i want to have argue the intent.


The reason Mythic Crafter doesn't have the [Item Creation] tag is because if it did the wizard could pick it up as a level-based bonus feat.


threadjack:

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
The reason Mythic Crafter doesn't have the [Item Creation] tag is because if it did the wizard could pick it up as a level-based bonus feat.

First of all no he couldn't because it's a mythic feat.

Secondly even if did have the item creation tag it still wouldn't help with the bypassing with the +5 to the crafting DC and that's because when the rules on magic item crafting say feat (singular) and then when they go into each category of magic item they explicitily say which is the item creation feat needed. What should have been done is write (either in the mythic crafter feat or in the mythic magic items chapter) that the mythic crafter feat is an additional item creation feat and, like the other item creation feats, it can't be bypassed with taking a +5 to the crafting DC.


I'm curious, for those that have run mythic games, how often did you use the five simple mythic (Agile, Arcane, Divine, Invincible, Savage) templates instead of actually adding mythic ranks to something?


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Reply to threadjack:

PRD wrote:

Mythic Crafter (Mythic)

You can craft mythic magic items.
Prerequisite: Any item creation feat.
Benefit: You can create any mythic magic item for which you have the appropriate item creation feat. In addition, you gain a +5 bonus on skill checks when creating non-mythic magic items.

That makes it clear that you need Mythic Crafter AND the appropriate crafting feat to make a mythic magic item. If you don't have Mythic Crafter, you never gained the ability to make mythic magic items.

Deciding that your players can bypass this feat and just take a +5 to the spellcraft DC seems like a self-inflicted problem.

Oh, here's an oddity for high CR adversaries - demon lords, great old ones, etc., don't get mythic feats.

A possibly nasty houserule for demon lords and other demigods in their home turf - much like how all their SLAs upgrade to any existing mythic versions, you could also go with their feats upgrading to any existing mythic versions.

Disclaimer: I have not yet thought through the ramifications of actually doing that.

Further possible buff for demigods: give them the "cast domain spells as 1/day SLAs" ability that PCs get if they take Divine Source. It probably won't have MUCH of an impact in a fight (other than any such SLAs auto-upgrading to mythic versions!), but would give such demi-gods significantly more options.

[I actually have done this, though the SLAs weren't mythic - I gave the vampire demigod in question (anti-paladin 20/marshal 10, with full divine source and some mythic vampire abilities replacing path abilities) a bonus action every round for using a divine source SLA, and the bonus action couldn't be disrupted by damage. This was the final foe of my Carrion Crown campaign, fighting a large (5 PCs + allies) L20 non-mythic party. I pegged my vampire demigod at CR 26.]

Silver Crusade

leo1925 wrote:

@Sebastian Hirsch

I also would like a link to a previous elaboration.
What do you mean by mythic bane?
blahpers wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Since I have posted this times and times again in the Wotr area, so to keep this short:

- Either mythic characters are fine, or mythic monsters are fine, they do not work in combination, characters are just to good.

- Mythic rules break the encounters per day structure

- Mythic magic items seem fine (with the possible exception of mythic bane)

A 2-3 PDF "errata" could fix it.

Any chance you could link to one of your previous elaborations? While I've played with mythic rules, I haven't yet run them and am interested in others' experiences.

I can't seem to find all my links, but these two should help you:

Me complaining

Other people complaining

There might be slight spoilers, but nothing major.

Btw: the mythic crafting feats area't really the problem, considering the crafting path ability. And while I like plenty of mythic magic items, ambrosia is a problem.


Huh, that just clicked with me.

Since Mythic Crafter isn't an item creation feat, Crafting Mastery out of the archmage path doesn't let you bypass it. Heh.


Thanks for all the suggestions and the discussion. Looking over the Mythic Adventures book, this is another player-centric book with very little DM support to run it. This is going to require a lot of tailoring to fit what my PCs can do to create a challenge.

I've always felt that heroes are measured by the villains they fight. If it is too easy, then the accomplishment is lessened.

I was joking with my players that Mythic Adventures should have a cover with players treating the DM like a piñata. It feels like any DM trying Mythic Adventures will spend an enormous amount of time prepping to have his mythic encounters destroyed by a system that spent far more time providing player's options and far too little time trying to challenge them, maybe because they gave the player's so much the game developers couldn't come up with ways to challenge the PCs. So they just released the book and decided to let players and DMs deal with it. Feels like the previous Epic Level Book put out during D&D: not finished. A lot of good ideas without much polish that was rushed without much oversight.

Silver Crusade

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Zhangar wrote:

Huh, that just clicked with me.

Since Mythic Crafter isn't an item creation feat, Crafting Mastery out of the archmage path doesn't let you bypass it. Heh.

CRB page 549 wrote:


Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a
magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster
does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item
creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot
create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items
without meeting their spell prerequisites.

So since mythic crafter is not an item creation feat, it only increases the DC by 5 ^^, if it was Crafting Mastery would allow you to ignore it ^^.

I could find no language in MA that contradicts the CRB here.

So you unless I am dead wrong, the feat is a trap.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Huh, that just clicked with me.

Since Mythic Crafter isn't an item creation feat, Crafting Mastery out of the archmage path doesn't let you bypass it. Heh.

CRB page 549 wrote:


Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions.
These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be
known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a
magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster
does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item
creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot
create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items
without meeting their spell prerequisites.

So since mythic crafter is not an item creation feat, it only increases the DC by 5 ^^, if it was Crafting Mastery would allow you to ignore it ^^.

I could find no language in MA that contradicts the CRB here.

So you unless I am dead wrong, the feat is a trap.

Since it's listed under the Feats section of requirements, I'd rule it as the "ignore it with CM" rather than the "bypassable with +5 DC". Bypassing it with crafting mastery only works for mythic characters on the archmage path (trickster path dabbling and Dual-Path notwithstanding), and the path ability is basically intended to let you not worry about feat prerequisites any more. Leaving mythic bane and other specific magic items/properties aside for a moment, the concept of bypassing the feat with crafting mastery isn't terribly broken, especially compared to playing the "haha +5 DC" card that even a fighter could pull off with a little effort.


Mythic Crafter is what gives you the ability to make mythic magic items in the first place. And it's not flagged as an item creation feat, so Crafting Mastery does not give it to you for free.

If you haven't taken Mythic Crafter, then you haven't unlocked the ability to make mythic magic items. It's a specific mythic feat that gives you an ability you otherwise don't have. If the feat didn't exist, then yes, anyone could make a mythic magic item. But Mythic Crafter does exist, and it is the feat that specifically enables you to make mythic magic items. Specific trumps general.


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Zhangar wrote:

Mythic Crafter is what gives you the ability to make mythic magic items in the first place. And it's not flagged as an item creation feat, so Crafting Mastery does not give it to you for free.

If you haven't taken Mythic Crafter, then you haven't unlocked the ability to make mythic magic items. It's a specific mythic feat that gives you an ability you otherwise don't have. If the feat didn't exist, then yes, anyone could make a mythic magic item. But Mythic Crafter does exist, and it is the feat that specifically enables you to make mythic magic items. Specific trumps general.

Refer to the FAQ on item creation requirements:

FAQ wrote:

Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?

As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.

Per the above FAQ, if you do not consider Mythic Crafter an item creation feat, then it can be waived by increasing the DC by 5. The crafting mastery archmage path ability would not apply, as it only allows you to waive item creation feats for free.

If you do consider it an item creation feat, then you may not waive the requirement via the +5 DC rule, but the crafting mastery archmage path ability would then allow you to waive the requirement, though you do not get the other benefit of the feat.

If there is something in the Mythic Adventures text that overrides this FAQ--and it would have to do so quite explicitly given the CRB precedent that mere "requirements" can be waived for +5 DC--I'd like to see it. Otherwise, you'll have to pick one or the other based on your interpretation of what is or is not an item creation feat. If you use the (Item Creation) feat descriptor as your determining factor, then it's bypassable via the +5 DC. If you prefer to interpret Mythic Crafter as such a feat despite the lack of descriptor, then it's bypassable via crafting mastery.

Silver Crusade

The problem is, that aside from the text in mythic crafter and it being listed as a requirement, the book does not explicitly say anything else regarding the crafting of magic of mythic magic items sooo.

Obviously the reason why mythic crafter is not an item creation feat, is that classes like wizard can't gain it as a bonus feat. For the same reason, the mythic teamwork feats do not have the descriptor teamwork and aren't combat feats. It is a bit silly, but so are all the crafting feats.


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I'll have to respectfully continue to disagree.

I am aware of the item crafting rules. I've played a number of item crafters over the years =P

But specific rules trump general rules.

Mythic Crafter is the specific feat that gives a character the specific ability to make mythic magic items, within the limits set by the feat. I respectfully disagree that Paizo had to re-state elsewhere that "you must take this feat to make mythic magic items" because the feat itself is crystal clear.

If you don't have Mythic Crafter, you can't make mythic magic items.

That's really all there is to it.

[Also, if players being able to make mythic items while ignoring what's clearly intended to be a barrier is causing a problem in your game, you may want to reconsider why you're letting your players ignore the clearly intended barrier.]


Zhangar wrote:
Also, if players being able to make mythic items while ignoring what's clearly intended to be a barrier is causing a problem in your game, you may want to reconsider why you're letting your players ignore the clearly intended barrier.

Yeah, if you can just ignore that feat, that means any non-mythic spellcaster (or NON-spellcaster if they go with Master Craftsman) can make mythic items just with an extra +5 to the DC. So this mythic feat is just a tiny little speed-bump with no real effect on the game, a dramatically different story from pretty much ALL OTHER mythic feats. Somehow, Blaphers, I don't think that's what Paizo intended.


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I found nothing wrong with mythic adventures. Ran home brew game with it and it worked great.

Now the AP Wrath of the Righteous, that has problems. I think these problems come from the AP being designed to be run with out mythic. So if you have mythic you are over powered for most if not all of the encounters.

I quickly rework some of the encounters in the book. Some I leave easy for the players to feal mythic. When I tweak an encounter I increase hit points sometime up to max. I add the the advanced template or increase the monster count. I've advanced the mythic tier on some monsters that already mythic as well. This seem to work well.


Guys you are talking about mythic items and mythic magic items like they are something specific, well they aren't. Apart from being mentioned in the mythic crafter feat and a chapter name they aren't mentioned anywhere else on the system, that's the problem.
The so called mythic magic items are (for the system) nothing more than magic items and have no special rule concerning them, that's the issue, anyone with the appopriate crafting feat (craft wondrous item, craft arms and armor etc.) can use the magic item creation rules and create them. What should have happened put a "mythic magic item creation" paragraph and there explain the additional rules that concern the subcategory of magic items that are the mythic magic items, without something like that then the standard rules for magic item creation apply.

As i said again, i can divine the intent and the intent is that you mythic magic items are a subcategory of magic items that need the mythic crafter feat in order to be created and that this requirement can't be bypassed with a +5 DC increase.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In my campaign, I generally have a simple solution for mythic magic items and item creation...players can't do it, that's all.


Zhangar wrote:

I'll have to respectfully continue to disagree.

I am aware of the item crafting rules. I've played a number of item crafters over the years =P

But specific rules trump general rules.

Mythic Crafter is the specific feat that gives a character the specific ability to make mythic magic items, within the limits set by the feat. I respectfully disagree that Paizo had to re-state elsewhere that "you must take this feat to make mythic magic items" because the feat itself is crystal clear.

If you don't have Mythic Crafter, you can't make mythic magic items.

That's really all there is to it.

[Also, if players being able to make mythic items while ignoring what's clearly intended to be a barrier is causing a problem in your game, you may want to reconsider why you're letting your players ignore the clearly intended barrier.]

Ditto to the first line, on the basis that there is no specific rule that denies the ability with more specificity than any other requirement that can be bypassed.

/Respectful disagreement is respectful! : )


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I've been in two mythic homebrew campaigns and have had a lot of fun in each. The only considerations I had to use as GM in the first was selecting templates that were challenging to the party. I never had a problem with NPCs that had mythic tiers, each path had options to have exciting combats.

I did have two houserules: Max HP for bad guys, and actual epic weapons to overcome epic dr.

So it was a bit of extra work running it, but I and my table have been having a blast with mythic adventures.

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