Bladed dash cheese


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Pendagast wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

pigs can't fly.

unless you cast a spell that lets them fly.

I now have the overwhelming desire to get a pig animal companion and cast overland flight on him. I will name him spider pig. He does whatever a spider pig does.


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Undone wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

pigs can't fly.

unless you cast a spell that lets them fly.

I now have the overwhelming desire to get a pig animal companion and cast overland flight on him. I will name him spider pig. He does whatever a spider pig does.

Bonus points if you do it as a Primal Companion Hunter, and turn him into a literal spider pig with the evolutions.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability?

Since they wrote the spell like this the answer seems to be yes that was the intention. It is not like they can pounce whenever they want. They still have to spend a resource to use it by casting spells.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The way I describe it, Spell Combat is a full-round action, that includes a spell casting and a full-attack action, done in either order.

You could really 'cheese' it up, if you have a prepared shocking grasp:

Start next to Enemy 'A'.
Declare Spell Combat.
Make Full-Attack on Enemy 'A' at -2. (Spell Combat part 1)
Cast Bladed Dash. (Spell Combat part 2)
Dash towards Enemy 'B'.
Pass by Enemy 'C' during dash, and make the Bladed Dash attack at a -2 + INT-or-CHA.
End Dash next to Enemy 'B', cast Quickened Shock Grasp, and deliver it via free attack on Enemy 'B' at -2.

Leave a cool colorful trail momentarily along your path, spattered with monster blood...


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
I want this combo to be legal as much as you guys but see no rules justification for it

Specific (this combo) beats general (the no movement rule)

Edit: I should read everything before answering. Ninja'd nearly a day ago.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The way I describe it, Spell Combat is a full-round action, that includes a spell casting and a full-attack action, done in either order.

You could really 'cheese' it up, if you have a prepared shocking grasp:

Start next to Enemy 'A'.
Declare Spell Combat.
Make Full-Attack on Enemy 'A' at -2. (Spell Combat part 1)
Cast Bladed Dash. (Spell Combat part 2)
Dash towards Enemy 'B'.
Pass by Enemy 'C' during dash, and make the Bladed Dash attack at a -2 + INT-or-CHA.
End Dash next to Enemy 'B', cast Quickened Shock Grasp, and deliver it via free attack on Enemy 'B' at -2.

Leave a cool colorful trail momentarily along your path, spattered with monster blood...

Who would want to squash something as fun and exciting as this?


I'm not a huge fan of the magus, but this thread is making me want to roll one after my wordcaster dies.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
CraziFuzzy wrote:

The way I describe it, Spell Combat is a full-round action, that includes a spell casting and a full-attack action, done in either order.

You could really 'cheese' it up, if you have a prepared shocking grasp:

Start next to Enemy 'A'.
Declare Spell Combat.
Make Full-Attack on Enemy 'A' at -2. (Spell Combat part 1)
Cast Bladed Dash. (Spell Combat part 2)
Dash towards Enemy 'B'.
Pass by Enemy 'C' during dash, and make the Bladed Dash attack at a -2 + INT-or-CHA.
End Dash next to Enemy 'B', cast Quickened Shock Grasp, and deliver it via free attack on Enemy 'B' at -2.

Leave a cool colorful trail momentarily along your path, spattered with monster blood...

Who would want to squash something as fun and exciting as this?

Exactly, this is the kind of 'cheese' I can get behind. Not because it is powerful, but because it is awesome and makes stories. I can 'visualize' this character pulling this off. Some of the other cheese things, though, that are a result of weird rule language, but don't pass the 'I can see that' test, I dislike. This particular maneuver certainly passes the rule of cool, and due to the huge resource use it involves (a 2nd level and a 5th level spell slot, and can only be done at 13th level at the earliest), doesn't result in continuously overpowered bs.

Sczarni

Could also be fun for a Paladin with Unsanctioned Knowledge.

Sovereign Court

Nefreet wrote:
Could also be fun for a Paladin with Unsanctioned Knowledge.

*ears perk up*

You'd get a bonus to hit and move towards an enemy without AoOs, but other than that, it doesn't seem so spectacular. You're not getting a full attack in the mix. Or am I missing something?


Ascalaphus wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Could also be fun for a Paladin with Unsanctioned Knowledge.

*ears perk up*

You'd get a bonus to hit and move towards an enemy without AoOs, but other than that, it doesn't seem so spectacular. You're not getting a full attack in the mix. Or am I missing something?

If you convince your DM that the spells from unsanctioned knowledge are still on the magus spell list, you could dip magus for 2 levels to get spellstrike and spell combat and use it with any spells you gained that way.

I wouldn't read it that way, but it's a possibility.

Sovereign Court

I personally wouldn't allow that if I were the GM, and hence I won't try it as a player.

As I understand, spell combat applies to spells you know in your role as magus, not spells you happen to know through other classes.

Sczarni

Ascalaphus wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Could also be fun for a Paladin with Unsanctioned Knowledge.

*ears perk up*

You'd get a bonus to hit and move towards an enemy without AoOs, but other than that, it doesn't seem so spectacular. You're not getting a full attack in the mix. Or am I missing something?

I just meant it could be fun.

Few opponents (or players, for that matter) would expect the Tank in Fullplate to be that mobile.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:

I personally wouldn't allow that if I were the GM, and hence I won't try it as a player.

As I understand, spell combat applies to spells you know in your role as magus, not spells you happen to know through other classes.

The Broad Study (Ex) Magus Arcana does allow spellstrike and spell combat with spells from his other spellcasting classes. That's about the only way to use the Paladin spells with spell combat/spellstrike... I'm honestly not familiar enough with Paladins and their spell list to determine if this would actually be worth it or not.

Sovereign Court

Well apparently this combination is legitimate. I'd like a response from the game developers, if possible.

Dimensional Assault

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Here we have a similar ability. Requires level 4 spell, and allows only a single attack as per a charge.

Do the game developers not feel that Bladed Dash is a bit overpowered by comparison?

I mean let's get totally real here. Are there any other classes that get pounce access at level 4?


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Well apparently this combination is legitimate. I'd like a response from the game developers, if possible.

Dimensional Assault

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Here we have a similar ability. Requires level 4 spell, and allows only a single attack as per a charge.

Do the game developers not feel that Bladed Dash is a bit overpowered by comparison?

I mean let's get totally real here. Are there any other classes that get pounce access at level 4?

As we have said before you are comparing "all day" pounce to a similar ability that can be used a very limited number of times. I don't think bladed dash is a problem, and yes, I have had a magus in my game.

I am sure the devs know about bladed dash, and they have not issued errata like they did for crane wings. So it seems that the community nor the devs have a problem with it.

As for the dimension feats they are there to improve upon a spell and the monk's abundant step class feature. The spell and this feat have different goals so I don't see the issue.

PS: They dont like it when people ask for a dev response.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Well apparently this combination is legitimate. I'd like a response from the game developers, if possible.

Dimensional Assault

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Here we have a similar ability. Requires level 4 spell, and allows only a single attack as per a charge.

Do the game developers not feel that Bladed Dash is a bit overpowered by comparison?

I mean let's get totally real here. Are there any other classes that get pounce access at level 4?

On page one:

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

I am one of Paizo's developers. I don't see the problem with balance. Pounce is an at-will ability. This is the top-level spell a magus gets at 4th level. Not even close to the same power level.

Is that acceptable?


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Well apparently this combination is legitimate. I'd like a response from the game developers, if possible.

Dimensional Assault

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Here we have a similar ability. Requires level 4 spell, and allows only a single attack as per a charge.

Do the game developers not feel that Bladed Dash is a bit overpowered by comparison?

I mean let's get totally real here. Are there any other classes that get pounce access at level 4?

you can pull this off with a monk or a horizon walker and not even have the ability to cast spells at all.

Dimensional assault also doesn't require a straight line per se, as there could be difficult or even non existent terrain between the start point and the end point.

With dimensional assault you can literally by pass everything else between you and your target.

caster though he was safe back there?
Not any more.


Yes. Summoner gets Pounce, as the ability rather than requiring a spell, at level one. Infinite times per day.

You got a response from a dev. Said it was legitimate. Not sure what more you want.

Dimensional Assault is not even remotely the same thing. It has some notable advantages over Bladed Dash: increased range and getting over terrain being the big two. But it's a truly terrible feat, to be honest-- that's one of those things that's really cool on paper but really terrible in reality. The chain's too long to get to the two good feats (Dervish and Savant).

And frankly, if you're looking at Dimensional Assault and the Magus? At least complain about the right part. Like how Dimension Door says you can't take any more actions, and Spell Combat is a single action to both cast a spell and attack... connect the dots on that one.

Yeah. The Magus gets most of Dimensional Agility (no +4 on concentration checks but that's it), a better version of Dimensional Assault, and a slightly worse version of Dimensional Dervish baked into their level one class feature. It's a pity they have to take the chain to qualify for Dimensional Dervish/Savant.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Well apparently this combination is legitimate. I'd like a response from the game developers, if possible.

Check the last page. You got a Pathfinder dev saying there is zero balance concerns about Bladed Dash in combination with Spell Combat.

Sovereign Court

I saw that part. What I don't get is how the power level is regarded to be in line with Dimensional Assault, or with the fact that any other class doesnt get a pounce-like ability at that level.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
I saw that part. What I don't get is how the power level is regarded to be in line with Dimensional Assault, or with the fact that any other class doesnt get a pounce-like ability at that level.

1. It is a very limited number of times per day at the level you get it.

2. Magus mostly shines damage wise by using damaging spells, so the very act of using Bladed Dash to get your normal melee attacks is pretty much always worse than just casting Shocking Grasp, a lower level spell, and walking up and attacking.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
I saw that part. What I don't get is how the power level is regarded to be in line with Dimensional Assault, or with the fact that any other class doesnt get a pounce-like ability at that level.

Dimensional Assault sucks.

Summoner got Pounce at level one.

Sovereign Court

>Dimensional assault also doesn't require a straight line per se, as there could be difficult or even non existent terrain between the start point and the end point.

Yes it does, it functions as a charge, or thats the implication with the pre-req feat as well.

>With dimensional assault you can literally by pass everything else between you and your target.

You can with the Bladed Dash as well. You move instantly up to 30 feet, (granted, the range is less than Dimensional Assault) as a non-action, with a free attack that has a bonus and still get a full attack.

It is in every way other than range better than Dimensional Assault. Requiring a level 2 spell rather than a level 4 spell, no feats and allowing for a full attack action as part of it.

It's more than just a good combination, it totally eclipses every other similar ability that I can think of. Also, Druids and Barbarians don't get Pounce until level 10 or so, I believe.

I'd interested to hear how the developers believe a level 4 pounce is in line with the rest of the game, balance-wise. The only saving grace of this...

It can't be combined with Spellstrike / Shocking Grasp. Because it eats your 1-spell-per-turn limit.


As a side note, if Spell Combat is a full attack action as mentioned earlier in this thread, does that mean I can use Dimensional Dervish in combination with Spell Combat?


chaoseffect wrote:
As a side note, if Spell Combat is a full attack action as mentioned earlier in this thread, does that mean I can use Dimensional Dervish in combination with Spell Combat?

No. Because it isn't a Full Attack, only treated as one for some effects. It doesn't work with Whirlwind Attack or the like either.

Sovereign Court

Regarding summoners...

First of all, most people agree Synthesist Summoners are OP. Secondly, its their Eidolons getting pounce and not them, big difference. Also, summoners rarely do the kind of damage that a Magus or Dex fighter will do, as it'd be with non-manufactured weapons and without spell strike.

Secondly, if we're talking Pathfinder Society... Synthesis summoners were banned forever ago. I personally believed the intention of Bladed Dash was to allow the Magus to have a viable charge option -- rather than to give them a pounce + full attack at level 4.

If there's any way to combine this with Shocking Grasp at low level, it's ripe for some abuse. The idea with Paladins and Unsanctioned Knowledge, yeah thats pure cheese. I intend to abuse that with extreme prejudice, until or if this ever gets FAQ'd.

@ Dimensional Dervish

No. You have to use the spell Dimension Door, rather than bladed dash, to get that effect. Also you need to have that full feat line and spell to qualify for the feat. IMO Bladed Dash's big sister is a better option.

Bladed Dash + Spell Combat is to Pounce as popularity is the sl***y little sister to prestige


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
I saw that part. What I don't get is how the power level is regarded to be in line with Dimensional Assault, or with the fact that any other class doesnt get a pounce-like ability at that level.

Summoner gets pounce at level 1. Bladed dash isn't even the best level 2 spell available to the magus.

Don't compare it to dimensional assault. Dimensional assault is an awful feat. Bladed dash is just better. Pathfinder has a very loose balance system.

You should probably just accept and move on. You don't have to like the ability, but it is what it is and your continued assertions are starting to come off as petulant. We all have parts of the game we don't particularly like - personally, I would rather all characters have an easy method of gaining pseudo-pounce, rather than restricting it so heavily.

*edit*

actually, all character have access to a quick runner's shirt by this level or soon after, so there is a pseudo-pounce available to literally every class. What do you have to say about that?


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Regarding summoners...

First of all, most people agree Synthesist Summoners are OP. Secondly, its their Eidolons getting pounce and not them, big difference. Also, summoners rarely do the kind of damage that a Magus or Dex fighter will do, as it'd be with non-manufactured weapons and without spell strike.

Secondly, if we're talking Pathfinder Society... Synthesis summoners were banned forever ago. I personally believed the intention of Bladed Dash was to allow the Magus to have a viable charge option -- rather than to give them a pounce + full attack at level 4.

If there's any way to combine this with Shocking Grasp at low level, it's ripe for some abuse. The idea with Paladins and Unsanctioned Knowledge, yeah thats pure cheese. I intend to abuse that with extreme prejudice, until or if this ever gets FAQ'd.

How many times has a 4th level Magus broken your game using bladed dash? Go through the calculation of required resources and figure out how many rounds the Magus can do this.

I mean you keep saying "OMG, Magus got POUNCE" and neglect the fact that Magus spells are an extremely limited resource.

I plan on playing a Magus in an upcoming game, and I'll most likely be using my 2nd level slots for Mirror Image and Blur.

Since I think those spells are better than Bladed Dash, then I guess they are even more broken!


Synthesist/Eidolon can pretty easily match the Pounce damage of the Magus' Spell Combat-Bladed Dash combination. Same for the Eidolon of a standard Summoner. And frankly, the advantage of the Synthesist over the standard Summoner is largely in survivability; the standard Summoner is actually a better class offensively because you can cast while your Eidolon bashes and you get a lot more skill ranks and feats to toss around. And I'd have to cross-check, but I think it's possible for a Hunter to get Pounce at about level 4 too.

Unsanctioned Knowledge can freely snag Bladed Dash (it's a Bard spell), but they can't get a Spell Combat equivalent, and it's not a "Magus Spell" unless it's coming off of the actual Magus' class abilities to cast, so trying to get it for a Paladin is a terrible waste on several fronts. You either have to go Magus 6/Paladin X (and then why are you not just casting it as a Magus) or go Magus 4/Paladin X and suffer from only being able to do it a few times a day. Also you're crazy-MAD unless you use the Eldritch Scion, which is a miserable archetype.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Here we have a similar ability. Requires level 4 spell, and allows only a single attack as per a charge.

This is not a similar ability at all. First of all, this is a teleport--Bladed Dash is not. Second, this feat is designed specifically to overcome the limitations on the Dimension Door spell. It, in no way, functions anything like Bladed Dash.

And yes, the Summoner gets Pounce at level 1. Also note, that Pounce is strong because its unlimited. Bladed Dash is extremely limited. The Magus has very limited level 2 slots, especially at 4th level.

Also as I showed earlier the Magus does more damage by moving up normally and then spell striking with a Frigid Touch or even the level 1 Shocking Grasp than by Spellcombating for Bladed Dash.


So a Magus "Pouncing" using a 2nd spell, taking a -2 to hit on both his attacks, and hitting for something like 1d6+6 or 2d6+12 if both hit is overpowered?


mplindustries wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Here we have a similar ability. Requires level 4 spell, and allows only a single attack as per a charge.

This is not a similar ability at all. First of all, this is a teleport--Bladed Dash is not. Second, this feat is designed specifically to overcome the limitations on the Dimension Door spell. It, in no way, functions anything like Bladed Dash.

And yes, the Summoner gets Pounce at level 1. Also note, that Pounce is strong because its unlimited. Bladed Dash is extremely limited. The Magus has very limited level 2 slots, especially at 4th level.

Also as I showed earlier the Magus does more damage by moving up normally and then spell striking with a Frigid Touch or even the level 1 Shocking Grasp than by Spellcombating for Bladed Dash.

This so much.

Bladed Dash shines against mooks, where you can take out a few at a time even if they're spread apart using it. It'll shine if you really need to close on a target quickly, since (if you can spare the spell slot), move -> Bladed Dash is strictly better than charging. But in that instance it's kind of nichey.

But, figure the Magus is level 4, has a +4 on their attacking stat and another +4 on their casting stat, and they even managed to take Precise Strike at level 3. Normal attack is 1D6+7 at +7 to hit. Spell Combat Bladed Dash is 1D6+7 at +9 to hit and 1D6+7 at +5 to hit. Cast Shocking Grasp, move action, deliver via Spellstrike is 5D6+7 at +7 to hit; +10 if the target is armored. Better damage output, one level lower in spells.

Grand Lodge

thank you for the giggles.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

>Dimensional assault also doesn't require a straight line per se, as there could be difficult or even non existent terrain between the start point and the end point.

Yes it does, it functions as a charge, or thats the implication with the pre-req feat as well.

>With dimensional assault you can literally by pass everything else between you and your target.

You can with the Bladed Dash as well. You move instantly up to 30 feet, (granted, the range is less than Dimensional Assault) as a non-action, with a free attack that has a bonus and still get a full attack.

It is in every way other than range better than Dimensional Assault. Requiring a level 2 spell rather than a level 4 spell, no feats and allowing for a full attack action as part of it.

It's more than just a good combination, it totally eclipses every other similar ability that I can think of. Also, Druids and Barbarians don't get Pounce until level 10 or so, I believe.

I'd interested to hear how the developers believe a level 4 pounce is in line with the rest of the game, balance-wise. The only saving grace of this...

It can't be combined with Spellstrike / Shocking Grasp. Because it eats your 1-spell-per-turn limit.

so in your mind, if there are melee combatants between me and that wizard I want to charge, bladed dash lets me by pass the enemy in my lane?

Likewise if there is a river, or a wall of force…I can just bladed dash in a straight line instantly, ignoring all obstacles?


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

>Dimensional assault also doesn't require a straight line per se, as there could be difficult or even non existent terrain between the start point and the end point.

Yes it does, it functions as a charge, or thats the implication with the pre-req feat as well.

>With dimensional assault you can literally by pass everything else between you and your target.

You can with the Bladed Dash as well. You move instantly up to 30 feet, (granted, the range is less than Dimensional Assault) as a non-action, with a free attack that has a bonus and still get a full attack.

It is in every way other than range better than Dimensional Assault. Requiring a level 2 spell rather than a level 4 spell, no feats and allowing for a full attack action as part of it.

It's more than just a good combination, it totally eclipses every other similar ability that I can think of. Also, Druids and Barbarians don't get Pounce until level 10 or so, I believe.

I'd interested to hear how the developers believe a level 4 pounce is in line with the rest of the game, balance-wise. The only saving grace of this...

It can't be combined with Spellstrike / Shocking Grasp. Because it eats your 1-spell-per-turn limit.

I don't know if you noticed but a magus doing a full attack without a spell to back up his damage is not all that impressive. If you don't believe me then make a magus that can use this, and tell me why the damage matters? A barbarian that could pounce at at level 6 once it gets full attacks is different.

Honestly since, the magus does not have iterative attacks at level 4 it really does not matter anyway.

How about you show how it is unbalanced. Give us some math to show how it overshadows other classes, or like I said just build a 4th level magus. One of us can provide another class to compare it to.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Regarding summoners...

First of all, most people agree Synthesist Summoners are OP. Secondly, its their Eidolons getting pounce and not them, big difference. Also, summoners rarely do the kind of damage that a Magus or Dex fighter will do, as it'd be with non-manufactured weapons and without spell strike.

Actually most people who realize the power of action economy know that the synthesis is not as good as being able to full attack and cast spells which is what a normal summoner does.

Quote:


If there's any way to combine this with Shocking Grasp at low level, it's ripe for some abuse. The idea with Paladins and Unsanctioned Knowledge, yeah thats pure cheese. I intend to abuse that with extreme prejudice, until or if this ever gets FAQ'd.

Cheese is subjective. "I don't like it" does not equal cheese.

All you are doing is repeating yourself. Bring some proof because if you don't convince the community that this is broken then we won't complain, and there will likely be no errata. Personally I don't have a a problem with you having your opinion. The problem is that you are not bringing any proof to the table, and comparing ability A to ability B is not proof. It is at best anecdotal evidence.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:

>Dimensional assault also doesn't require a straight line per se, as there could be difficult or even non existent terrain between the start point and the end point.

Yes it does, it functions as a charge, or thats the implication with the pre-req feat as well.

The spell allows you to move anywhere within 100+10/lvl feet, regardless of difficult terrain (or no terrain) between you and the destination. Dimensional assault says you teleport a distance up to twice your move speed, but doesn't say you have to actually be capable of charging over that distance. (If you did, what would be the point? You could just charge instead.)

It does not function as a charge. You seem to be having a problem with reading implications into rules that do not exist there. Stop that. Read the rules that appear in the feat or spell and take them at face value.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Regarding summoners...

First of all, most people agree Synthesist Summoners are OP. Secondly, its their Eidolons getting pounce and not them, big difference. Also, summoners rarely do the kind of damage that a Magus or Dex fighter will do, as it'd be with non-manufactured weapons and without spell strike.

Actually most people who realize the power of action economy know that the synthesis is not as good as being able to full attack and cast spells which is what a normal synthesis does.

Did you mean to say "...is what a normal summoner does."?


Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Regarding summoners...

First of all, most people agree Synthesist Summoners are OP. Secondly, its their Eidolons getting pounce and not them, big difference. Also, summoners rarely do the kind of damage that a Magus or Dex fighter will do, as it'd be with non-manufactured weapons and without spell strike.

Actually most people who realize the power of action economy know that the synthesis is not as good as being able to full attack and cast spells which is what a normal synthesis does.
Did you mean to say "...is what a normal summoner does."?

I thought it was what a master summoner does.


Ravingdork wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
taldanrebel2187 wrote:

Regarding summoners...

First of all, most people agree Synthesist Summoners are OP. Secondly, its their Eidolons getting pounce and not them, big difference. Also, summoners rarely do the kind of damage that a Magus or Dex fighter will do, as it'd be with non-manufactured weapons and without spell strike.

Actually most people who realize the power of action economy know that the synthesis is not as good as being able to full attack and cast spells which is what a normal synthesis does.
Did you mean to say "...is what a normal summoner does."?

Thanks.

It has been fixed. :)

Scarab Sages

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taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Note full attack action specified no movement not no move action. cut and dry

Specific > General

Bladed Dash does not use a move action, it is a spell. Cast as a part of spell combat, you complete the spells effects (move + attack) and take your normal iterative attacks.

You can chant your mantra all you like, but this is how the spell works.

Sovereign Court

It is not mantra, it is stated in the rules for a full attack. Devs say that Bladed Dash lets you move during a Full Attack. As far as I am aware it is the only mechanic that actually allows movement during a full attack.

Full Attack per SRD stated nothing about a move action

SRD wrote:

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

Movement is movement. Hence the confusion. Move actions !== movement.

The comparison to Dimensional Assault is being made for a few reasons.

-It requires a feat chain, whereas Bladed Dash requires none
-Dimensional Assault does not allow a full attack action (whereas Bladed Dash with Spell Combat does)
-Dimension Door doesn't allow actions after the attack, whereas Bladed Dash apparently allows you a free attack as part of the spell and a full attack action
-The FAQ stated that Spell Combat was a full attack action, rather than the original text of the rulebook that stated full-round action. Parsing or not, there are rules differences to be had between a full-round action and a full attack action.

Personally I feel that this spell trivializes the feat chain for Dimensional Assault, which was already pretty bad to begin with. While not game breaking, I think the real take-away from this thread is that the game developers always intended for Bladed Dash to function as a pounce ability for Magus, but not for it to be combined with Spellstrike.

wraithstrike wrote:
The problem is that you are not bringing any proof to the table, and comparing ability A to ability B is not proof. It is at best anecdotal evidence.

No, it is an example of precedence and game balance. Bladed Dash removes a lot of the need for an ability like dimension assault. The greater bladed dash actually removes the need entirely. For a spell of lower level you get a full attack and actually get a bonus attack that apparently stacks with Haste, as per developer intention.

Are there any other abilities in the game that give a character Pounce at level 4? Are there any other abilities that give extra attacks that stack with haste? The answer is of course, Yes there are. But they are few and far between.

The people in this thread are pissed because I have convincingly argued that the existing mechanic is not in line with other similar game mechanics. Whether I like it or not isn't the point.

Rules-wise, this is a legitimate combo. But keep in mind numerous threads like this about Zen Archer were made. I made this thread to raise awareness about the combination,t that way cheesers in PFS will abuse the hell out of it, and end up getting it banned.

One idea for abusing this mechanic is Unsactioned Knowledge, Ring of Spell Knowledge, Mystic Past Life, Unsanctioned Knowledge or possibly something like Eldritch Heritage or Dreamed Secrets may allow for said abuse.

Can anyone think of a way to get the Bladed Dash combo to work with Spellstrike? Maybe if you set the charge for a touch spell the round before?


how does combining it with spell strike matter?

technically you can do it without ever having spellstrike… so the spell strike class ability is moot.


There intent is that you are not to move(not counting 5 foot steps) via the move action and full attack. The spell allows you to move under the power of the spell, and since the spell itself, due to the magus class features, is part of the full round attack, there is nothing to stop the other attacks once the magus arrives at his location.

When the CRB was made this spell did not exist just like certain rules are not repeated for new classes. The spellbook rules as an example specifically call out wizards. Would you deny using them for a future class that also had a spellbook?


you can full attack while mounted too…since you aren't the one moving.

Sovereign Court

Pendagast wrote:
you can full attack while mounted too…since you aren't the one moving.

This got FAQ'd.

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

wraithstrike wrote:

There intent is that you are not to move(not counting 5 foot steps) via the move action and full attack. The spell allows you to move under the power of the spell, and since the spell itself, due to the magus class features, is part of the full round attack, there is nothing to stop the other attacks once the magus arrives at his location.

When the CRB was made this spell did not exist just like certain rules are not repeated for new classes. The spellbook rules as an example specifically call out wizards. Would you deny using them for a future class that also had a spellbook?

2nd part is a strawman. Magus and similar classes state their spellbook functions as a wizards. Anyways...

It does not say move action, but rather movement. That is because you can move through other means such as combat maneuvers, spells, mounts and so forth. As noted above, you cannot use a mount and just automagically get a full attack.

RageLancePounce, as described originally, does not work anymore due to the rule changes. But it still gets you a nice damage boost on one attack which could theoretically stack with Vital Strike + Imp Vital Strike etc.

Nothing stops the full attacks. My argument was that the RAI of Bladed Dash was not to be used with Spell Combat, since its a full attack. Game devs already weighed in and said that was their intention. Far as I can tell,this is the only sanctioned way to move and get a full attack without actually having the Pounce ability itself.


taldanrebel2187 wrote:
Far as I can tell,this is the only sanctioned way to move and get a full attack without actually having the Pounce ability itself.

This is without a question not the case.

Quickrunners shirt being another way I know of. Another way is to quicken a teleportation ability. Blood crow strike also gives you a full attack without pounce.

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Pendagast wrote:
you can full attack while mounted too…since you aren't the one moving.

No. Need the feat Mounted Skirmisher for that.

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