The barbarian in my group took this rage power. I recommended it to him based in all the chatter about it in the forums.
He retrained in less than 5 sessions.
After seeing it into effect, I am failing to see why people think that is so good. Perhaps am I misinterpreting the rules. The rage power states:
"While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies."
That means that any cleric has to touch attack in order to cure him, and he will always make a saving throw to reduce de healing to a half.
That also means that the barbarian will try to save if he is targeted with Haste, Blessing of Fervor, Teleport, Dimension Door, Fly... And those spells are part of my group strategy (I always supposed that they were part of everybody's group strategy).
So, please tell me. Am I wrong with my interpretation of the rules?
If not, why everybody is so excited with Superstition? Is the world filled with lone cowboys?
It requires your Barbarian's player to think tactically.
The bonus to saves is amazing. The downside, hwoever, needs to be worked around.
Simply delaying until your casters go and drop their buffs is enough to make the downside virtually nonexistent.
Go last in round 1, and then enjoy full buffs and saves high enough to make a Paladin proud.
It requires your Barbarian's player to think tactically.
The bonus to saves is amazing. The downside, hwoever, needs to be worked around.
Simply delaying until your casters go and drop their buffs is enough to make the downside virtually nonexistent.
Go last in round 1, and then enjoy full buffs and saves high enough to make a Paladin proud.
But that suppose that all the buff are casted in the first round. A lot of the spells (Fly, Dimension Door...) are meant to be casted when the tactical conditions change in the middle of the combat.
And the cure spells are not casted in the first round.
Cure spells are not often worth it, and the bonus to saves reduce the risk of needing them in the first place. For fly, the barbarian should consider having a potion, and also, note that it's quite a while until flying enemies with ranged attacks becomes common.
And think of it like this, how many times will the barbarian without superstition go down due to hold person/dominate person etc and thus need extra actions and/or cures from the rest of the party regardless?
It requires your Barbarian's player to think tactically.
The bonus to saves is amazing. The downside, hwoever, needs to be worked around.
Simply delaying until your casters go and drop their buffs is enough to make the downside virtually nonexistent.
Go last in round 1, and then enjoy full buffs and saves high enough to make a Paladin proud.
But that suppose that all the buff are casted in the first round. A lot of the spells (Fly, Dimension Door...) are meant to be casted when the tactical conditions change in the middle of the combat.
And the cure spells are not casted in the first round.
Flight spells should be pre-cast, not cast in combat. Use an Air Walk, it lasts longer.
D. Door is really only for retreats. At which point the Barbarian can drop Rage.
Not to mention Moment of Clarity and the myriad ways to Rage cycle.
Flight spells should be pre-cast, not cast in combat. Use an Air Walk, it lasts longer.
Well, you can't always pre-cast flight spells, as Fly is a 3rd level single-target minutes/level spell and air walk is a 4th level single-target 10 minutes/level spell.
It takes quite a while until that is so neglible you can pre-cast it before every combat.Now, if you suspect that you're going up against flying opponents, then yeah, you can precast it, but you don't always do that.
Four to six 3rd to 4th level slots is kind of a big deal.
D. Door is really only for retreats. At which point the Barbarian can drop Rage.
I've seen it used offensively many, many times, especially to cut of enemies' escape. Had my party kill a BBEG like four adventures early due to a Dim Door.
Not to mention Moment of Clarity and the myriad ways to Rage cycle.
But yeah those are good options.
In general I agree with you, it just seems you went a little too generalizing. Different people have different experiences of the game, and we shouldn't assume too much.
@Rynjin: Pretty much what Gaberlunzie has said. You can't always precast flight spells. You don't have the resources till very later in the game. And you don't always know when will you need it.
And as Gaberlunzie, I have seen a lot of offensive uses of DD. Pounce is not the only way of full attacking at distance.
@Ascalaphus: Took a little of time to figure that out, because the bonus to saves is versus supernatural abilities too, so seems unfair to get the bonus but not the malus. But you are absolutely right by RAW.
Look, I am not saying that Superstition is useless. You get an incredible bonus but with a balanced downside. I would not recommend that rage power for every barbarian, though.
People is using that bonus to make barbarian VS fighter comparisons. Boasting about the superiority of the barbarian without taking the downsides into account.
Does superstition make a better lone barbarian. Indeed. But it has a lot of downsides group-wise.
@CWheezy: The power states:
"While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies."
"Cannot be a willing target of any spell" in my group means that you have to touch attack him, because he is not letting you cast the spell on him.
About your question, my group (a party of 7 characters) has a dedicated healer (we have two clerics and a paladin, but only one cleric defines himself like a healer). He mainly heals, removes conditions (paralysis, fear, incapacitating spells...) or dispelling spells that transform the battlefield against the group interests. When the conditions are appropriate, he does others thing also (buffing, dismissing outsiders or whatever).
So yes, we are healing in combat. I have read a lot of arguments against it, but in my opinion they are based in that too common unrealistic view of the combat in which everything is perfect, and every martial gets his full round of attacks, so all that matters is DPR.
Combats have been much more interesting for everyone. With pathfinder rules, it is easy to drop a character in just one round (with damage or otherwise, like a paralysis/sleep/whatever effect that last for minutes). With somebody healing it is easier to get back before the end of the fun.
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I think the thing is, one or two nasty spells have a bigger chance to take out your barbarian than damage will. So with Channel healing in the background, sacrificing buffs for superior resistance to enemy magic is often a good deal. I do myself seem to be fighting a lot of BBEG casters.
Yeah, you sacrifice some buff spells. But if the enemy casters are nasty enough, I think that's a good sacrifice.
If magic isn't getting through, there are far fewer conditions that need clearing that you need spells for. Also, Lay on Hands is also a Supernatural ability; maybe select mercies with Superstition in mind?
Worst case, you suspend rage for a round, get condition-cleared, and use some sort of trick to rage again. If you have Spell Sunder, you're probably already looking for ways to rage-cycle anyway. At that point, the cleric can just ready an action to remove the condition in the brief window between you dropping rage and reactivating it. (Although that's a bit cheesy.)
To summarize: Superstition has downsides, but clever play can mitigate those weaknesses to the point where they are largely mitigated.
Superstition:
1. rewards players who are familiar with the ability and have a plan to how to handle its drawbacks.
2. rewards players who planned ahead of time and understood what they were getting into - I think it is much less attractive without the favored class bonus, for example, which you probably don't have if you just casually picked it on levelup on someone's recommendation.
3. is less attractive in a very buff-happy party
4. is more attractive in a normal or small size party, and less attractive in a large party (for the same reason as 3.)
5. can vary significantly in attractiveness based on the type of foes you are fighting.
If it's not one of those 5, I have more, but those would be my top 5 guesses as to reasons your player might not want it.
More people who buff the party the worst it is. If your party is a buffer cleric/wizard/oracle and the superstition barbarian, its a terrible choice. If your party on the other hand is a rogue, control wizard, melee druid, then the superstition barbarian is an excellent choice.
Like my life oracle takes three rounds to get the party fully buffed in combat. Thats a big hit to the barb over time, and if there was another buffer its even worse.
If you don't have buffers, or the buffers tend to drop one big spell, (like haste), not such a problem.
I have a barbarian with it in my game, and it works well. Actually Rynjin is the guy in my game.
As for airwalk, if you are fighting inside a dungeon and your GM does not say more time passed than should pass by RAW 40 minutes is more than enough time to clear most dungeons.
As for needing heals, the bonuses to saves means he most likely wont become paralyzed, put to sleep, and so on.
I can only guess that the ability does not fit with your playing style, but it does work well.
As for the lack of healing it actually comes from gameplay experience. It is not theorycraft, but every group plays differently.
Cure spells are not often worth it, and the bonus to saves reduce the risk of needing them in the first place. For fly, the barbarian should consider having a potion, and also, note that it's quite a while until flying enemies with ranged attacks becomes common.
And think of it like this, how many times will the barbarian without superstition go down due to hold person/dominate person etc and thus need extra actions and/or cures from the rest of the party regardless?
Potions do not work well on superstitious barbarians. When you drink a potion you are both the caster and target of the spell, so you are in effect having a spell cast on you; a spell that you must save against. So you are going to make a very low DC save against any potions you drink too.
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Not really.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
Unfortunately, Superstition forces you to resist ALL spells, so you do have to try to resist potions swallowed.
Channel Energy is a Supernatural ability, and you don't have to resist those.
Why don't you have to resist those?
Superstition says "spells" and by RAW channel energy should work but is that really the RAI?
This coming from a player that just started playing a barbarian with this power.
Bummed as it seems potions will not work.
Channel Energy is a Supernatural ability, and you don't have to resist those.Why don't you have to resist those?
Superstition says "spells" and by RAW channel energy should work but is that really the RAI?
This coming from a player that just started playing a barbarian with this power.
Bummed as it seems potions will not work.
Yes. If it meant you needed to save against Su it would have said so, since it went to the trouble of listing spells, spell-likes, and Supernatural abilities separately before.
Channel Energy is a Supernatural ability, and you don't have to resist those.Why don't you have to resist those?
Superstition says "spells" and by RAW channel energy should work but is that really the RAI?
This coming from a player that just started playing a barbarian with this power.
Bummed as it seems potions will not work.
Channeling works. Otherwise they could have just said "all magic effects.."