Improving the Rogue


Homebrew and House Rules


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Just a few ideas to help the rogue do what Paizo seems to want it to do,

10+int skills per level (silly i know)

Expertise (Ex): at the second level, a rogue picks a number of class skills equal to his int bonus (minimum 1) that she excels in, these skills are granted a bonus equal to half the rogues level

Agility (Ex): At the fifth level a rogue may preform any skill that would take a move action as a swift action

Rapid Strike (Ex): At the tenth level when a rogue sneak attacks, they may do so as a full attack applying sneak damage to all of their successful attacks, as long as the first attack was a valid sneak attack.

Great agility (Ex): at the 12th level, A rogue may preform any move action (excluding actual movement or class abilities) as a swift action, alternatively they may make a second 5 foot step as a swift action on a turn they have made a 5 foot step

Thoughts? i know the wording probably needs a bit of cleaning up. But other than that what do you think?


i assume these are simply added on to core rogue?

i would identify what areas of improvement you intend on making. for example, based on what you have proposed above, it looks like:

1) more flexibility/mastery with skills
2) faster action economy with skills
3) expanded opportunities for sneak attack
4) better mobility

the Agility line, especially Greater Agility, could use more specifics. what are you trying to do with it?

i am addressing area 1 and 3 with this and this and this, if you are interested.


10 skill points seems overkill to me, as I don't think they suffer from any shortage of skill points with 8. Even without 10, your rogue will have no shortage of skill points because you have given incentive to boost Intelligence.

Expertise: I have considered something like this as well, but as a replacement for Trapfinding. Instead of utilizing Int though, I would be inclined to set the number at 2, possibly 3.

Agility: this is pretty vague. Just how many skill uses require a move action? Not many. I will assume that you don't mean skill that require no action and are used during movement. If I get Improved Feint and gain the ability to feint as a move action, can I now feint as a swift action?

Rapid Strike: I like it, but how many cases are there where this will be a benefit? The only one I can think of is Invisibility, where it is lost after the first attack.

Great Agility: Neat, I guess. I can load weapons, stand up, grab potions, control my horse, open unlocked doors... move heavy objects? Another nit-pick, what is the tie between Agility and Great Agility? One speeds up non-Dexterity skills, the other speeds up non-skill actions. I have tried to use the "2nd 5-ft step" thing before in homebrew, and the wording gets tricky if you want to write it our correctly. Simplify it by saying "As a swift action, she can move 5 feet without provoking an attack of opportunity."


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

10 skill points seems overkill to me, as I don't think they suffer from any shortage of skill points with 8. Even without 10, your rogue will have no shortage of skill points because you have given incentive to boost Intelligence.

Expertise: I have considered something like this as well, but as a replacement for Trapfinding. Instead of utilizing Int though, I would be inclined to set the number at 2, possibly 3.

Agility: this is pretty vague. Just how many skill uses require a move action? Not many. I will assume that you don't mean skill that require no action and are used during movement. If I get Improved Feint and gain the ability to feint as a move action, can I now feint as a swift action?

Rapid Strike: I like it, but how many cases are there where this will be a benefit? The only one I can think of is Invisibility, where it is lost after the first attack.

Great Agility: Neat, I guess. I can load weapons, stand up, grab potions, control my horse, open unlocked doors... move heavy objects? Another nit-pick, what is the tie between Agility and Great Agility? One speeds up non-Dexterity skills, the other speeds up non-skill actions. I have tried to use the "2nd 5-ft step" thing before in homebrew, and the wording gets tricky if you want to write it our correctly. Simplify it by saying "As a swift action, she can move 5 feet without provoking an attack of opportunity."

Hmm good feedback...

You may be right about 10+ just being overkill, as for expertise i would probobly set it at 3 if i had to put a statick number, 2 feels just a little two narrow for my taste, and doesnt allow the classic theif set (stealth, disable, and slight of hand)
as for agility how about this:

Agility (Ex): at the 5th level, a rogues practice allows them to use their skills more quickly than most; Skill checks which normaly require a move action can be done as a swift action, those normaly requiring a standard action can be used as a move action, and skills requiring a full round can be completed as a standard action.

here is a bit better wording on rapid strike:

Rapid Strike (Ex): At the 10th level, when a rogue sneak attacks he does so too quickly for a foe to immediatly respond; When full attacking, if a rogues first attack qualifies for sneak attack, all attacks he makes during that full attack do.

As for usefullness i was thinking of flanking more than invisibility for this.

As for great agility it mostly works as intended, it, like agility is supposed to represent a rogue just plain being faster at most when it comes to doing things, it has some odd corner cases (such as moving heavy objects) but mostly works as intended. I would consider expanding it to make non attack/spell standard actions into moves but.... honestly i don't have the level of system knowledge needed to know what all that might break.

Side note thanks for the second 5 foot step wording, its much cleaner and more clear than what i thought of.


One of the core problems with a rouge is that skills are not particularly useful compared to spells. This means that in games with no or few casters rouges are useful but in more standard games rouges become obsolete after the caster picks up some utility spells. But that is a larger problem that would be fixed by nerfing spells, buffing skills, or giving rouges spells (investigator).

As far as these recommendations

10+int skills per level: I don't think this is necessary

Expertise (Ex): This seems fine

Agility (Ex): This is powerful but I guess rouges need a bit of a buff so this is okay.

Rapid Strike (Ex): Rogues could already do this when flanking and could also do this when ambushing as even when they are noticed the enemy is still normally flat footed.

Great agility (Ex): Neat

Overall I like it however the core problem remains. I'd allow agility and greater agility as rouge only feats but i probably wouldn't put them in the class directly.


rainzax wrote:

i assume these are simply added on to core rogue?

i would identify what areas of improvement you intend on making. for example, based on what you have proposed above, it looks like:

1) more flexibility/mastery with skills
2) faster action economy with skills
3) expanded opportunities for sneak attack
4) better mobility

the Agility line, especially Greater Agility, could use more specifics. what are you trying to do with it?

i am addressing area 1 and 3 with this and this and this, if you are interested.

You are mostly correct in your assessment, The rogue is supposed to, in theory be a king of skills but beyond getting a lot of skill points he has no way to buff them, so the bard, or the new investigator come out well ahead. I personally prefer the flat 1/2 level bonus over rolling twice simply because there are a number of rogue talents that already do the roll twice thing.

Ambush i like a lot, and would probably work it into my progression somewhere.

Not quite as keen on your expanded sneak ideas, they look good but feel like they should be advanced talents, rather than raw class abilities.

As for the action economy, yes i feel rogue deserves far better than what it has, since swift actions have become a major part of the economy and rogue, more than i would say any other class, doesn't get to actually use them.

As for agility i think i mostly cleared that up in my previous post.


One of the ideas I had was giving special abilities by having X ranks in a skill.


Darche Schneider wrote:
One of the ideas I had was giving special abilities by having X ranks in a skill.

Yah I posted my first attempt at such a thing a little while ago I tied it to having a skill as a class skill to keep the wizards greedy hands off it.

Here is my homebrew. Maybe it will give you ideas.


Kekkres wrote:
I personally prefer the flat 1/2 level bonus over rolling twice simply because there are a number of rogue talents that already do the roll twice thing.

The two abilities accomplish very different things. Rolling again doesn't allow you to reach a DC you normally couldn't. It gives you a pretty good chance of avoiding rolling exceptionally low.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
I personally prefer the flat 1/2 level bonus over rolling twice simply because there are a number of rogue talents that already do the roll twice thing.
The two abilities accomplish very different things. Rolling again doesn't allow you to reach a DC you normally couldn't. It gives you a pretty good chance of avoiding rolling exceptionally low.

This is true, I was more worries about interactions with talents like honeyed words, which allow rogues to roll skills twice already.


Augmenting the rogue's skills doesn't really fix the problems with the class.

Give them the Nimble ability from the Swashbuckler/Gunslinger in place of Trap Sense.

Have Finesse Rogue apply DEX to damage on top of granting Weapon Finesse.

Create rogue talents that allow you to sneak attack things that normally cannot be hit with precision damage.

Agility as you've written it is vague and very easily abused. Just give them a rogue talent that lets them feint as a swift action.

Pseudo full BAB when making sneak attacks.

Fix rogue talents and you fix the rogue.


i call these the 'roll twice' talents. if you wanted to include an automatic rogue feature that grants rolling twice of select skills, it is easy enough to change those 'roll twice' talents into something else. in fact, i found that when you do, they become not only more useful but also more flavorful. for example:

Alternate 'roll twice' Rogue Talents

Spoiler:

Charmer (Ex): Through sheer force of personality, the rogue can use Diplomacy to influence a nonplayer character's attitude as a full-round action, but only to shift their attitude by a single step (usually from hostile to unfriendly) - the target is allowed a Will saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + her Charisma modifier) 1 round later to shake the effect. This is a language-dependent mind-affecting charm effect. A rogue with this talent who spends at least 1 minute or longer using Diplomacy to influence an NPC's attitude generally causes a shift that lasts for 1d12 hours (instead of 1d4). Finally, when using Diplomacy to make a request, a rogue may retry after 24 hours has passed, but only once per request.

Fast Fingers (Ex): A rogue with this talent may draw small items (such as an alchemical item, a dagger, potion, scroll, shuriken, or wand) from her person as a free action. She may draw a concealed dagger or shuriken as a swift action. When she uses Sleight of Hand to lift a small object from a person or palm a coin-sized object under observation, her victim takes a -5 penalty to his Perception check. Finally, the rogue halves the penalty to use Sleight of Hand as a move action.

Hard to Fool (Ex): A rogue with this talent may add her Intelligence bonus to her Sense Motive checks, and has the uncanny ability to sense enchantment (see Sense Motive) whenever she passes within 10 feet of a creature under such an effect - even if the creature is using the Disguise skill, or is under an illusion or polymorph spell or effect. This check should be made in secret by the DM. Her suspicions are aroused against all illusions and she is automatically considered to disbelieve their effects. If she makes this saving throw, she may communicate her disbelief to her allies granting them a +8 to their respective saving throws (instead of +4). Finally, a rogue with this ability is immune to the mirror image spell and similar magicks (she always strikes the true caster).

Honeyed Words (Ex): A rogue with this ability doubles all circumstantial bonuses made when using the Bluff skill to lie or fool another person. She may use her Bluff skill in place of her Diplomacy skill to influence the attitudes of others.

Peerless Maneuver (Ex): When a rogue provokes an attack of opportunity from failing to move through threatened or occupied squares using her Acrobatics skill, she may substitute her check result for her AC against those attacks.

now, being able to roll twice via an in-built class feature is synergized by selecting a rogue talent - and each selection (imho) feels more meaningful.

also, i echo master_marshmallow's statement about rogue talents in general.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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I actually don't have a problem with the 10 skill points, but I address it the other way.

I took a page from Kirthfinder, renaming Sneak Attack Progression to Cunning...which is a word that conjures up a nice synthesis of smart and fast.

1) For each point of cunning, the Rogue gains an extra skill point per level and names an additional skill as a class skill. (Note, the Rogue starts with 4 class skills (Stealth, Perception, Bluff, Disable Device) and four more of their choice).

2) For each point of Cunning the Rogue deals an additional point of precision damage when using a finessable weapon. If the attack qualifies as a Sneak Attack, they instead do d6's.

3) For each skill at maximum ranks, the Rogue gains a +Competence bonus equal to his Cunning modifier to that skill.

This accomplishes the following:

1) The Rogue will always be King of Skill points. At level 20, he will have more skill points then a 36 Int Wizard. Take that!

2) Rewards Weapon Finesse and a roguish fighting style with a damage buff...and stays away from Dex to damage.

3) Making the skill buff a +competence modifier turns it into a gold saving buff, not something broken by being super-stackable.

4) Lets the Rogue determine what skills are important to her and take them as class skills. This is basically what Experts do...and the Rogue is the martial expert, just like the Fighter is the more martial warrior.

Note: All the skill boosting feats also make those skills class skills for a Rogue. So, taking Scholar (+1 all Knowledge skills) also makes all Knowledge skills class skills. So the Rogue also gets rewarded for a high Int.

But note that Rogue Talents and Cunning are basically the class resources at levels 1 and 2. The Rogue has a TON of empty levels, which no none spellcaster should have. So, those levels have a lot to be filled.

Most of the Talents need to be rewritten to synergize with skills and actually be class features, instead of proto-feats.

===Aelryinth


One thing after looking over the Advanced Class Guide that I'm seriously considering doing in my campaign is replacing the rogue's sneak attack ability and replacing it with the precise strike from the swashbuckler (without the requirement of panache points). I found in my campaigns the rogue is fine for the most part (in that the players seem to enjoy their character) its just often they aren't able to use the sneak attack ability due to the circumstantial nature of it. The only other thing is making rogues qualify for Combat Expertise without the Int 13 requisite.

So curious what others think on swapping out sneak attack with precise strike?


Kekkres wrote:
Side note thanks for the second 5 foot step wording, its much cleaner and more clear than what i thought of.

Needs to be fixed. Movement of any kind disallows the free 5 ft step.

As a swift action, she can move 5 ft without provoking attacks if opportunity. Unlike other movement, using this ability does not prohibit her from taking a 5 foot step as a free action.


ok so compiling everything we have the following rogue

Skills proficiencies bab and saves (same)

1 Sneak attack +1, Expertise
2 Evasion, talent
3 Sneak attack +2, Ambush
4 Uncanny Dodge, Improved Feint, Talent
5 Sneak attack +3, Agility
6 Talent, Rogue's Fortune 1/day
7 Sneak attack +4, Deft Footwork
8 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Talent
9 Sneak attack +5 Greater Feint
10 Advanced talents, talent
11 Sneak attack +6, Rogues fortune 2/day
12 Talent, Greater Agility
13 Sneak attack +7, Improved Evasion
14 Talent
15 Sneak attack +8, Hide in plane sight
16 Talent Rogue's Fortune 3/day
17 Sneak attack +9
18 Talent
19 Sneak attack +10
20 Master Strike, Talent

Expertise (Ex) at the first level a rogue selects four class skills that they excel in, She receives a bonus on these skills equal to half her rogue level (Minimum 1)

Ambush (Ex)At 3rd level the rogue becomes adept at setting up and responding to well-executed surprise attacks. She may ignore less than total concealment caused by darkness, fog, and smoke. In addition, if she is able to act in the surprise round, she may take a full unrestricted compliment of actions as if it were a normal round.
(gleefully stolen from rainzax)

Improved Feint; At the fourth level a Rogue gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat, they need not meet the prerequisites to use this.

Agility (Ex) At the fifth level, A rogue can preform feats of skill swifter than most, She can preform skill checks that would normally require a standard action using a move action, and those that would normally require a move action as a swift action.

Rogues Fortune (?): At the sixth level a rogue can occasionally count on luck to save them from certain failure, Once per day, a rogue may re-roll a single D20 roll, after the first roll but before the results are declared, They must take the second roll even if its worse. She gains an additional use of this ability per day at the eleventh level and again at the sixteenth level.

Deft Footwork (Ex): At the seventh level a rogue may move five feet as a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This does not preclude the rogue from using a five foot step as a free action the same turn

Greater Feint: At the ninth level a rogue gains Greater feint as a bonus feat, they need not meet the prerequisites to use this.

Greater Agility (Ex): At the twelfth level a rogue can work far faster than most. She may preform any general act that would normally use a move action (Excluding class abilities and anything that would involve actual movement)as a Swift action.

Improved Evasion (Ex): at the thirteenth level a rogue gains improved evasion, as the ranger class feature

Hide in plain sight (Ex) at the Fifteenth level a rogue gains hide in plane sight, as the ranger class feature.

New Rogue talents

Rogue finesse: This talent allows you to Modify attack and damage rolls with all light weapons using Dexterity rather than strength.

All rogue-like talents, such as advanced ninja and slayer talents

Critical Sneak (Advanced): Select any Critical Feat, other than critical focus or critical mastery, as a bonus feat. Rather than applying to standard critical hits, the rogue applies them to their sneak attacks. This talent may be taken more than once, each time you pick a new critical feat. The rogue is treated as having critical focus and uses their rogue level in place of BaB to qualify for these feats


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did you see this bloke's rogue remake? i especially like the embedded Improved Steal. nice.

Sneak Attack - i presume the "Sneak Attack +1" refers to +1 precision bonus to damage but +1d6 if SA conditions met (DX-denied, flanked)? assuming so, is this with finesse weapons only? i ask because that is a common precondition, but shoehorns the rogue into a DX build, which, though arguably the most iconic, betrays the rogue's flexibility. consider leaving Sneak Attack completely unmodified, and instead import the "+1 precision bonus to damage per SA dice" into Finesse Rogue talent. because, Weapon Finesse is taken at 1st level anyway if at all, and having it be a talent is quite silly.

also, i challenge you to consider SA as one class feature and record it as such. look what happens to your class table:

Spoiler:

Kekkres Rogue

01- Sneak Attack, Expertise
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Ambush
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Feint
05- Agility
06- Rogue Talent, Rogue's Fortune 1/day
07- Deft Footwork
08- Rogue Talent
09- Greater Feint
10- Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
11- Rogue's Fortune 2/day
12- Rogue Talent, Greater Agility
13- Improved Evasion
14- Rogue Talent
15- Hide in Plain Sight
16- Rogue Talent, Rogue's Fortune 3/day
17-
18- Rogue Talent
19-
20- Rogue Talent, Master Strike

Expertise - i would call this "Skill Expertise" to be more specific. Also, what if every morning the rogue wakes up, if she could train for 15 minutes and choose a number of skills (four, as you have, or Intelligence modifier, as you had, or, one per two rogue levels) and gain this bonus to those skills for that day? just a thought. if this, name it "Skill Training" then? or a completely different idea where "whenever the rogue has maximum ranks in a class skill, that skill gains a competence bonus equal to half the rogue's level"... some ideas to consider.

Improved Feint - i would make this available earlier? as it stands, it is the only class feature of yours that broadens the applicability of Sneak Attack - something i believe all rogue patches ought to address - so having this come online before 4th level may be worth considering.

Rogue's Fortune - i like the name. or at least the word "Fortune" for sure. in choosing 6/11/16 are you trying to parallel iterative attacks of full BAB classes? maybe this could see an earlier and more plentiful progression? 3/7/11/15/19?

Agility - consider rolling Deft Footwork into an Agility I/II/III/IV line that scales to 5/9/13/17? maybe Improved Deft Footwork (renamed Agility IV) could be an immediate action? if you do this, you could also grant a "ignore +10-foot difficult terrain per round" per advancement?

Improved Evasion and Hide in Plain Sight - i would simply make into advanced rogue talents, especially if you turn Fortune and Agility into odd-level abilities.

Critical Sneak - nice idea. beware the Blind/Stun-loop of Blinding and Stunning Critical though. if you divorce it from sneak attack, you could just grant Critical Focus as a bonus feat (at 10th?) and say that rogue levels substitute for BAB when taking critical feats? another way entirely to turn Sneak Attack into a greater battlefield control ability is to allow multiple talents (which are frequently pretty good - like Slow Reactions) to be delivered by a single Sneak Attack. you could either charge a 2-dice tax, or simply allow up to two upon gaining the Advanced Talents class feature?

cool ideas here. cheers.


thanks for the feedback, from the top

rainzax wrote:

Sneak Attack - i presume the "Sneak Attack +1" refers to +1 precision bonus to damage but +1d6 if SA conditions met (DX-denied, flanked)? assuming so, is this with finesse weapons only? i ask because that is a common precondition, but shoehorns the rogue into a DX build, which, though arguably the most iconic, betrays the rogue's flexibility. consider leaving Sneak Attack completely unmodified, and instead import the "+1 precision bonus to damage per SA dice" into Finesse Rogue talent. because, Weapon Finesse is taken at 1st level anyway if at all, and having it be a talent is quite silly.

also, i challenge you to consider SA as one class feature and record it as such. look what happens to your class table:

Sneak attack is unmodified, I honestly just didnt feel like adding all the extra D6s in the list. so yes its still 1D6 on every odd rogue level. Also I looked the class over thinking of sneak as a "non-feature" which is why i was careful to pair it with another feature every level up to level 17 (where i ran out of worthwhile ideas)

rainzax wrote:
Expertise - i would call this "Skill Expertise" to be more specific. Also, what if every morning the rogue wakes up, if she could train for 15 minutes and choose a number of skills (four, as you have, or Intelligence modifier, as you had, or, one per two rogue levels) and gain this bonus to those skills for that day? just a thought. if this, name it "Skill Training" then? or a completely different idea where "whenever the rogue has maximum ranks in a class skill, that skill gains a competence bonus equal to half the rogue's level"... some ideas to consider.

Skill expertise works, and interesting idea with the respecing, though i personaly would not make it complete... I would do one of two things,

either A) i would make it like inquisitor teamwork feats where the rogue starts out with one or two that they can change, and as they level they pick up more as their old ones get set in stone

Or B) i would give the rogue a single floating "improvised expertise" that they can change as a full round action to any skill they have X points in

rainzax wrote:
Improved Feint - i would make this available earlier? as it stands, it is the only class feature of yours that broadens the applicability of Sneak Attack - something i believe all rogue patches ought to address - so having this come online before 4th level may be worth considering.

Hmm good point, i could probobly move it up to second or third level easily enough

rainzax wrote:
Rogue's Fortune - i like the name. or at least the word "Fortune" for sure. in choosing 6/11/16 are you trying to parallel iterative attacks of full BAB classes? maybe this could see an earlier and more plentiful progression? 3/7/11/15/19?

I was originaly going to call it Thieves fortune, which is more iconic but the rogue is much broader than theives so i decided against it, as for the level placement, if im honest i was trying to fill in levels that didnt have anything, your every other odd idea works well though i would have to nerf it so early on you could only use it for say... skills, gaining the ability to reroll attacks and saves as you level... probobly at 7 and 11 respectivly.

rainzax wrote:
Agility - consider rolling Deft Footwork into an Agility I/II/III/IV line that scales to 5/9/13/17? maybe Improved Deft Footwork (renamed Agility IV) could be an immediate action? if you do this, you could also grant a "ignore +10-foot difficult terrain per round" per advancement?

Interesting idea, i like the idea of rolling them together, though i would defanatly use a name other than agility 1-4. Immediate 5 foot step could be very useful though i would likely need to expand on it a bit to make it a level 17 ability.

rainzax wrote:
Improved Evasion and Hide in Plain Sight - i would simply make into advanced rogue talents, especially if you turn Fortune and Agility into odd-level abilities.

Hide in plain sight i could see as a talent but i defanatly want improved evasion to stay, simply because its an advancement of an existing rogue ability, honestly im a bit baffled that they lack it to begin with

rainzax wrote:
Critical Sneak - nice idea. beware the Blind/Stun-loop of Blinding and Stunning Critical though. if you divorce it from sneak attack, you could just grant Critical Focus as a bonus feat (at 10th?) and say that rogue levels substitute for BAB when taking critical feats? another way entirely to turn Sneak Attack into a greater battlefield control ability is to allow multiple talents (which are frequently pretty good - like Slow Reactions) to be delivered by a single Sneak Attack. you could either charge a 2-dice tax, or simply allow up to two upon gaining the Advanced Talents class feature?

Good feedback and ill defanatly think about stacking sneak talents. As for blind/stunlooping, If my rogue rewrite gives a high level rogue the ability to keep one foe stunlocked assuming that they hit every turn and the foe fails thair save every turn.... well im ok with that honestly. They would be getting it, i think at level 16 at the earliest, and thats the point in the game where i think shinanigans are officialy fine.


Increasing skill points isn't going to be much of anything too helpful unless those skill points mean something.

Climb and Jump are replaced by Flight
Disable Device tends to get replaced with knock or skeleton keys or just having a barb with lots of damage soaking ability.
Linguistics is replaced by Tongues.
Slight of hand is replaced by just killing the guy you want to steal from or somethings like this.

Etc, lots of it also ends up being very usable if not better by other classes with certain archetypes. For example, if I'm building a anti-trap character, I go with Archeologist Bard. Their version of trapfinding has a perception check that works on everything, and I believe has two of the rogue talents built right into it.

The points a rogue gets could be a rather strong driving point for them. Also, other than the ninja, Rogues get more talents then the archetypes that steal from them. So perhaps if more talents worked together with each other?


Darche Schneider wrote:

Increasing skill points isn't going to be much of anything too helpful unless those skill points mean something.

Climb and Jump are replaced by Flight
Disable Device tends to get replaced with knock or skeleton keys or just having a barb with lots of damage soaking ability.
Linguistics is replaced by Tongues.
Slight of hand is replaced by just killing the guy you want to steal from or somethings like this.

Etc, lots of it also ends up being very usable if not better by other classes with certain archetypes. For example, if I'm building a anti-trap character, I go with Archeologist Bard. Their version of trapfinding has a perception check that works on everything, and I believe has two of the rogue talents built right into it.

The points a rogue gets could be a rather strong driving point for them. Also, other than the ninja, Rogues get more talents then the archetypes that steal from them. So perhaps if more talents worked together with each other?

Yes it is true that almost every skill can be replicated or replaced with a spell, however in my experiance, casters dont like loading up a bunch of utility spells if they dont have to, of the ones you listed fly is the only one ive seen a caster grab without explicitly knowing they would need X. While the old idea that a wizard can unlock a door or two while the theif can unlock all day may not be quite true with the introduction of wands, Im sure most wizards and casters in general would prefer not to waste spell slots and resorces on spells and items when a rogue can do it just as reliably. Since a wizard has much more usefull and interesting things they can do with their resources than outshining the rogue.


Skeleton Key can also simulate a rogue if needed. Pretty much 85gp and you've got a pocket lock picker.


Ok round two; Same bab, saves skills and proficiencies as standard rogue still

1 Sneak attack +1, Skill Expertise
2 Evasion, talent, Improved Feint
3 Sneak attack +2, Thieves Fortune 1/Day
4 Uncanny Dodge, Talent, Ambush
5 Sneak attack +3, Agility
6 Talent, Impromptu Expertise
7 Sneak attack +4, Thieves Fortune 2/Day
8 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Talent, Greater Feint
9 Sneak attack +5, Improved Agility
10 Advanced talents, talent,
11 Sneak attack +6, Thieves Fortune 3/Day
12 Talent, Impromptu Expertise
13 Sneak attack +7, Greater Agility
14 Talent, Improved Evasion
15 Sneak attack +8, Thieves Fortune 4/Day
16 Talent
17 Sneak attack +9, Perfect agility
18 Talent, Impromptu Expertise
19 Sneak attack +10, Thieves Fortune 5/Day
20 Master Strike, Talent

Sneak attack: As Standard Rogue

Skill Expertise (Ex): at the first level a rogue selects three class skills that she excels in. She receives a bonus to these skills equal to half her rogue level (Minimum 1)

Evasion: As Standard Rogue

Rogue Talents: As Standard Rogue

Improved Feint: At the second level, A rogue gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat, she need not meet the prerequisites to use it.

Uncanny Dodge: As Standard Rogue

Thieves Fortune (Ex): At the Third level a rogue can occasionally count on luck to save them from certain failure, Once per day, as a swift action, a rogue may re-roll a single D20 roll, after the first roll but before the results are declared, They must take the second roll even if its worse. She gains another use per day every four levels after (to a maximum of 5/day at level 19). At the seventh level a rogue may use her fortune as an immediate action to reroll a save as well.

Ambush (Ex): At Fourth level the rogue becomes adept at setting up and responding to well-executed surprise attacks. She may ignore less than total concealment caused by darkness, fog, and smoke. In addition, if she is able to act in the surprise round, she may take a full unrestricted compliment of actions as if it were a normal round.

Agility (Ex):At the fifth level, A rogue can preform feats of skill swifter than most, She can preform skill checks that would normally require a standard action using a move action, and those that would normally require a move action as a swift action. Further, her deft movements Easily bypass obstacles allowing her to Ignore the first 10 feet of Non-magical difficult terrain she passes though.

Impromptu Expertise (Ex): At the sixth level a Rogue's experience grows, Allowing her to excel in skills she is familiar with. The rogue selects a single skill that she has ranks in equal to half of her class level or more and gives it a bonus equivalent to that given by her skill Expertise (this does not stack with skill expertise). Once per day, as a standard action she may change her area of expertise to any skill that qualifies. At the twelfth and eighteenth level she gains additional areas expertise. When she does, her previous impromptu becomes set as part of the skill expertise class feature.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: As Standard Rogue

Greater Feint: At the eighth level A rogue receives Greater Feint as a bonus feat, she need not meet the prerequisites to make use of it.

Improved Agility (Ex): At the Ninth level a rogues Agility and coordination improve further, allowing her to move five feet as a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This does not preclude the rogue from using a five foot step as a free action the same turn, Additionally her ability to bypass difficult terrain easily increases, allowing her to move through 20 feet of non magical difficult terrain per turn without impediment, or half as much Magical difficult terrain(10 Feet)

Greater Agility (Ex): At the thirteenth level a rogue can work far faster than most. She may preform any general act that would normally use a move action (Excluding class abilities and anything that would involve actual movement)as a Swift action. Additionally her ability to ignore difficult terrain increases, allowing her to ignore 30 feet of non-magical difficult terrain or half as much magical difficult terrain (15 feet)

Improved Evasion (Ex): As the standard Ranger

Perfect agility (Ex): At the Seventeenth level a rogues Agility becomes unmatched, Allowing her to preform any of her swift actions as immediate actions instead.

Rogue Talents

Explosive Chemistry
You Can Produce two bombs per day as the alchemist class feature, you use half your rogue level as your effective alchemist level for determining damage

Rogue Finesse
You modify all attack and damage rolls made with light weapons with Dexterity rather than Strength

Explosive Discovery
prerequisites: Explosive Chemistry
You gain a single bomb discovery from the alchemist discovery list, this talent can be taken multiple times
Slayer and investigator talents

Advances rogue talent:

Sneak Mastery
Prerequisites: at least two sneak Talents
When you land a sneak attack you may chose to drop any number of damage die from sneak attack to add an equal number of additional Sneak Talents

Advanced ninja, investigator and slayer talents

Critical Sneak:
Select any Critical Feat, other than critical focus or critical mastery, as a bonus feat. Rather than applying to standard critical hits, the rogue applies them to their sneak attacks. This talent may be taken more than once, each time you pick a new critical feat. The rogue is treated as having critical focus and uses their rogue level in place of BaB to qualify for these feats


If you're curious, I have a rogue rewrite I posted a while back. I'm seeing that yours has some similarities.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
If you're curious, I have a rogue rewrite I posted a while back. I'm seeing that yours has some similarities.

Oh indeed it is, it looks like ive accidentally stolen all your patches! Though i will say your a bit more liberal with your cunning than i am with my fortune, probably because i envision the reroll as an aspect of luck that cant be counted on, while you seem to picture it as a feat of wit.


Yes. However, my version is lifted in part from the cleric's luck domain, so there ya go.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A rogue's alignment might indicate what kind of bonus he'd receive.

A Chaotic rogue should be a firm believer in and user of luck.
A Lawful rogue would by extremely analytical and probably use insight bonuses.
A Neutral rogue would disdain both extremes and rely on pure competence.

The Rogue is an iconic dex character, and building him to that paradigm should be a goal, exactly the way that building a barbarian towards a strength character should be a goal.

If you want to, you can always build in another direction. but like making a finesse rogue, making a Str rogue should require a feat or Talent. The rogue is about skill, and bashing someone over the head with brute strength isn't about skill.

As for magic replacing many skills...I firmly believe that their should be more anti-caster traps and stuff in the world. Nobody in their right mind with access to spellcasting would make it easy for enemy casters to infiltrate, and should have protections against them the same way they would against mundane enemies. Anti-flying, alarms that activate when spells are cast, anti-teleport, anti-divinatory...there should be alarms against casters as much or more prevelant then non-casters, for PRECISELY the reasons you are giving above, that 'magic replaces skills.'

==Aelryinth


I'm rather of a mind that the Slayer really solves most rogue concerns I've had. I'd just play one of those.


Kekkres wrote:
Just a few ideas to help the rogue do what Paizo seems to want it to do,

Emphasis mine. I wouldn't base any adjustments on what Paizo wants something to do. Paizo doesn't seem to want the rogue to do anything, but stagnate until they can release some sort of band-aid fix in their next new $40 book (if they fix anything at all).

A minor nitpick, I know.=)

Anyway, I don't really have any opinion on your changes, though I will state I don't see much of a point in giving the rogue even more skill points for reasons mentioned by several posters above.

I made a few changes to my game that has improved rogue a bit, however - some of which were borrowed from Cieran and Lemmy (among others). The major changes made, however, are as follows - some of which don't directly address the class itself (and have the side effect of helping melee as a whole):

1. As part of a full attack, melee may move up to their speed before making their attacks (and why not? Spellcasters may use move actions while casting many of their game-breakers).
2. Weapon Finesse is a weapon trait and not a feat (it should have been from day 1).
3. Agile Maneuvers is not a feat, but a choice to use Strength or Dexterity for CM(x) (again, should have been from day 1).
4. Rogues gain darkstalker (3.5) feat provided they're trained in Stealth; granted shadowstrike as a talent.
5. Rogues may add their Intelligence to damage in place of Strength.
6. Added a "clustered shots" effects to Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; reduced all Dex requirements for the feat chain by -2.
6. Removed Versatile Perfomance from bards and replaced it with something of similar value.
7. Reworded a small number of spells which were very problematic.
8. Slowly. S.L.O.W.L.Y. working on making skills more valuable/useful/applicable.
9. Quit adding new Paizo content, outside of bestiary materials, to our games.

The real problem I ran into with rogues (talents aside) is they're able to hit things with reasonable accuracy till around 10th level, then the game changes drastically. A fighter's to hit % remains relatively the same throughout their career (it spikes briefly around 10th, then normalizes), while the rogue's drops suddenly to about half of the fighters. Free weapon finesse improves this somewhat, but the problem still exists. I've considered adding either a form of "Rogue Training" that increases their to hit with weapons classified as "rogue weapons".

Many of your issues with the class seem to be a bit different, however. If I think of anything, I'll point it out. Best of luck!

drbuzzard wrote:
I'm rather of a mind that the Slayer really solves most rogue concerns I've had. I'd just play one of those.

That's not a terribly helpful thing to say; it's akin to saying if you don't like (x), you should go play another game.


Aelryinth wrote:

A rogue's alignment might indicate what kind of bonus he'd receive.

A Chaotic rogue should be a firm believer in and user of luck.
A Lawful rogue would by extremely analytical and probably use insight bonuses.
A Neutral rogue would disdain both extremes and rely on pure competence.

The Rogue is an iconic dex character, and building him to that paradigm should be a goal, exactly the way that building a barbarian towards a strength character should be a goal.

If you want to, you can always build in another direction. but like making a finesse rogue, making a Str rogue should require a feat or Talent. The rogue is about skill, and bashing someone over the head with brute strength isn't about skill.

As for magic replacing many skills...I firmly believe that their should be more anti-caster traps and stuff in the world. Nobody in their right mind with access to spellcasting would make it easy for enemy casters to infiltrate, and should have protections against them the same way they would against mundane enemies. Anti-flying, alarms that activate when spells are cast, anti-teleport, anti-divinatory...there should be alarms against casters as much or more prevelant then non-casters, for PRECISELY the reasons you are giving above, that 'magic replaces skills.'

==Aelryinth

im personaly not a fan of alignment based abilities, so i would prefer to leave the mechanical distinction between lawful neutral and chaotic rogues to talents at most. as for Dex vs Str builds i dont think any feat should be needed for building a thuggish burly rogue, the fact that the rogue mechanicly uses dex heavily is enough of a penalty to punish dumping it.


Da'ath wrote:
The real problem I ran into with rogues (talents aside) is they're able to hit things with reasonable accuracy till around...

Yes this is something im still concerned about, im considering giving it a +3 to hit when sneaking at some point, which should, in theory, even the gap when combined with the +2 to flanking or the lack of dex. Imo the rouge SHOULDN'T be remarkably effective when out in the open without help, they arent fighters after all.

as to some of your other points I dropped the extra skill points when i saw that, yes, they where basicly pointless.

Versitile preformance is problematic ill give you that. But im Not entirely keen on removing it.


Da'ath wrote:
That's not a terribly helpful thing to say; it's akin to saying if you don't like (x), you should go play another game.

Odd accusation there. In the past I was plenty active in threads on how to fix the rogue. I've even started ones with my suggestions. However I just find that the slayer class gives you most everything you might want as a rogue, but gets rid of the deficiencies. If the rules include a solution so I don't have to cook up houserules, why bother with the houserules?

How about we just ignore the rogue as written, call the slayer a rogue, and be done with it?

That's nowhere close to saying 'go play another game'. At most it is 'go play a different class' but since we're already rebuilding a class from the ground up, that's what is being done.

My way of seeing the rogue deficiencies are pretty simple:

A) Their saves suck - reflex is the least likely save to end your character, yes it can happen, but will and fortitude are much more dangerous effects usually.
B) Their ability to deal damage sucks. 3/4 BAB and no to hit boosting abilities means you hit like a kitten on quaaludes. Sneak attack looks much nicer on paper than when the rubber meets the road, and even if you grant it to a rogue all the time in DPR calculations, they really don't keep up against level appropriate threats.
C) Plethora of crap options in rogue talents

Slayer addresses all of these.
A) Adding a good fortitude save solves the save issue.
B) Full BAB and studied target put you back in the running damage wise, and throwing in Ranger fighting styles is very nice.
C) Because you have both rogue talents to choose from as well as ranger combat styles, and terrain bonuses, you actually have more good choices than you can take.

Yes, you give up 2 skill points being a slayer vs. rogue. If that is the cost of being actually combat effective I'll happily take it.


drbuzzard wrote:
Odd accusation there. In the past I was plenty active in threads on how to fix the rogue. I've even started ones with my suggestions.

Emphasis mine. Your statement was in no way, shape, or form helpful in accomplishing what the OP seeks to accomplish, i.e. improving the rogue.

drbuzzard wrote:

That's nowhere close to saying 'go play another game'. At most it is 'go play a different class' but since we're already rebuilding a class from the ground up, that's what is being done.

Yes, you give up 2 skill points being a slayer vs. rogue. If that is the cost of being actually combat effective I'll happily take it.

It is called hyperbole.

I called you on something, you disagree. If you'd like to discuss it further, we can do so via PM and not derail the thread further; I won't respond to anything further outside of a PM that is not working toward the OPs goal.

drbuzzard wrote:

My way of seeing the rogue deficiencies are pretty simple:

A) Their saves suck - reflex is the least likely save to end your character, yes it can happen, but will and fortitude are much more dangerous effects usually.
B) Their ability to deal damage sucks. 3/4 BAB and no to hit boosting abilities means you hit like a kitten on quaaludes. Sneak attack looks much nicer on paper than when the rubber meets the road, and even if you grant it to a rogue all the time in DPR calculations, they really don't keep up against level appropriate threats.
C) Plethora of crap options in rogue talents

Slayer addresses all of these.
A) Adding a good fortitude save solves the save issue.
B2) Full BAB and studied target put you back in the running damage wise, and throwing in Ranger fighting styles is very nice.
C2) Because you have both rogue talents to choose from as well as ranger combat styles, and terrain bonuses, you actually have more good choices than you can take.

Yes, you give up 2 skill points being a slayer vs. rogue. If that is the cost of being actually combat effective I'll happily take it.

Back on topic. For the most part, I agree with the deficiencies in rogue, as you present them. None of which are terribly difficult to correct (provided one doesn't commit to the folly of attempting to balance mundane vs magic).

I agree with A1 and C1. I partially agree with B1.

A1 & 2. Agreed, though I'd prefer to see Will as their additional Good save.
B1 & B2. While I like their BAB at 3/4, I do agree the lack of to-hit bonuses is a major problem for rogues that wish to be combat effective - their chance to hit falls severely post level 10. I feel making rogues a sort of critical strike specialist would be a more effective means by which to place them in a niche of their own.
C1 & 2. I see no reason allow them to use ranger combat styles and terrain bonuses. A new, unique mechanic which provides reasonable to hit and crit modifiers would be better, in my opinion. Paizo's habit of cherry picking from other classes and spreading these abilities to everyone and their brother is a major factor in why many consider the rogue obsolete.


Kekkres wrote:
Yes this is something im still concerned about, im considering giving it a +3 to hit when sneaking at some point, which should, in theory, even the gap when combined with the +2 to flanking or the lack of dex. Imo the rouge SHOULDN'T be remarkably effective when out in the open without help, they arent fighters after all.

Agreed. That is one of the primary reasons I'm very much against granting full BAB to rogues. The problem, as far as I can tell, didn't crop up for our group in 3.0-3.5, but in Pathfinder. With the addition of "Weapon Training" for fighters (i.e. an additional +4 to hit), they spread the standard 5 point gap to 9 and seem to have balanced ACs around the fighter's to-hit bonus and not around the "median," i.e. rogue. Some means of granting rogues a +4 bonus over 20 levels would bridge the gap, in my opinion without granting them full BAB and an additional attack.

Kekkres wrote:
Versitile preformance is problematic ill give you that. But im Not entirely keen on removing it.

We've been going a little retro of late, in the form of some rules which include returning some of the previous bard rules abilities and adding new versions, as well. I've been attempting to rework the Dark Knowlede class feature of the Archivist to replace Versatile Performance. It is a very worthwhile ability, in my opinion, and removes a single class feature that was poorly designed from the get-go - again, in my opinion.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Allow the Rogue to name a particular weapon (this rapier, vs all rapiers) as a Favored Weapon when taking Weapon Focus. With that weapon, he is considered to have Weapon Training as a Fighter of equal level.

Ta da. Gives the same TH/Dmg bonuses an inquisitor, cleric or bard gets as they level.

Using Dark Knowledge and tying that into the Rogue, while giving him access to all knowledge skills, would also be a great use of tons of skill points.

==Aelryinth


Take a look at this thread too, there is a link to an ONLINE DOCUMENT with a rogue class and many different skill tricks. Your feedback is appreciated. Cheers.


Aelryinth wrote:

Allow the Rogue to name a particular weapon (this rapier, vs all rapiers) as a Favored Weapon when taking Weapon Focus. With that weapon, he is considered to have Weapon Training as a Fighter of equal level.

Ta da. Gives the same TH/Dmg bonuses an inquisitor, cleric or bard gets as they level.

Using Dark Knowledge and tying that into the Rogue, while giving him access to all knowledge skills, would also be a great use of tons of skill points.

==Aelryinth

that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback.


Kekkres wrote:
that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback.

I believe what Aelryinth suggests assumes knowledge of a 3.0/3.5 mechanic you may or may not be familiar with. In essence, you had a favored weapon as he mentions above, but if it was lost, destroyed, and so on, you could do a ritual or an amount of time passes and select a new. I think it was either a class feature in complete warrior or a feat chain somewhere else.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Aelryinth.


Da'ath wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
that seems like a bad idea imo, It prevents them from ever changing not only their weapon type, but their spacific weapon which at any point other than the very endgame is a huuuuge drawback.

I believe what Aelryinth suggests assumes knowledge of a 3.0/3.5 mechanic you may or may not be familiar with. In essence, you had a favored weapon as he mentions above, but if it was lost, destroyed, and so on, you could do a ritual or an amount of time passes and select a new. I think it was either a class feature in complete warrior or a feat chain somewhere else.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Aelryinth.

Yes like the druids animal companion, however in such cases, to my knowlage, you arent allowed to just change out because you got a better thing. Which is the problem, unless its simple to change favored weapons, you are restricting the rogue from upgrading, if its simple, the restriction is pointless, and only serves to nerf dual weilding.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Da'ath is right. You only get the bonus with one weapon at a time (or maybe two weapons if you are TWF) which 1) gets the rogue his signature weapon! and 2) prevents it from being overpowered by applying it to everything under the sun.

Bard, Inq and cleric buffs are sorta balanced by the fact there's a limited number of rounds they can be used. If you're going to make it a flat bonus, it's going to need a restriction or two...and you certainly don't want it applying to a whole weapon group, as that's really stealing from the Fighter.

==Aelryinth


The Rogue doesn't need to be buffed, the class is good as it is.


Depends on who you ask. However, its kind of late to that. Rogue threads in the homebrew forum are quite different that those in other forums, in case you haven't noticed.


Zilfrel Findadur is just trolling (edit, it is possible he's not, but at this point I really don't care whether its ignorance, legit opinion, or malice - the result is the same, derailing of the thread).

Anyway, Aelryinth may have inadvertently inspired me with his comment. Thus inspired, I went about looking for a mundane means by which to correct for the to-hit bonus/damage issue I am some others are having. I came up with this, which is based in fact, but deviates significantly, of course.

Adrenaline Rush (Ex)
In response to a situation the rogue deems threatening or frighting, she may trigger an adrenaline rush. Starting at 1st level, a rogue can activate an adrenaline rush as a free action. Starting when the adrenaline rush is activated, the rogue receives a bonus based on the type of response selected.

At 1st level, a rogue can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the rogue can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute or until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The rogue must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again. A rogue can end her adrenaline rush as a free action and is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in this state. A rogue cannot activate a new adrenaline rush while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise activate an adrenaline rush multiple times during a single encounter or combat.

When the rogue uses this ability, she must select one type of response to make. As a swift action, she can change this response to another type.


  • Fight Response The rogue is filled with heightened heightened aggression and perception, gaining a +1 morale bonus on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and Perception skill checks. This bonus increases by +1 per four rogue levels beyond first (+2 total at 5th level, +3 at 9th, and so on).
  • Flight Response The rogue's agility and speed are heightened, granting an additional 5 feet to speed, +5 feet to speed per four rogue levels. In addition, a rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC, +1 dodge bonus to AC per four rogue levels.
  • Fawn Response The rogue's survival instincts cause her to freeze up as a response. During the first round of combat, if the rogue has not acted yet, she may use the fawn response, granting her the ability to use feint as a free action against a single target with a +1 morale bonus on her Bluff check, +1 per four rogue levels.

Thoughts, refinements, etc? It is a rough draft, as I completed the idea in less than 10 minutes, but I think it might be a valid solution.

Edit: It has elements of rage & judgement, of course.


Da'ath wrote:

Zilfrel Findadur is just trolling (edit, it is possible he's not, but at this point I really don't care whether its ignorance, legit opinion, or malice - the result is the same, derailing of the thread).

Anyway, Aelryinth may have inadvertently inspired me with his comment. Thus inspired, I went about looking for a mundane means by which to correct for the to-hit bonus/damage issue I am some others are having. I came up with this, which is based in fact, but deviates significantly, of course.

Adrenaline Rush (Ex)
In response to a situation the rogue deems threatening or frighting, she may trigger an adrenaline rush. Starting at 1st level, a rogue can activate an adrenaline rush as a free action. Starting when the adrenaline rush is activated, the rogue receives a bonus based on the type of response selected.

At 1st level, a rogue can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the rogue can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts for 1 minute or until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The rogue must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again. A rogue can end her adrenaline rush as a free action and is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in this state. A rogue cannot activate a new adrenaline rush while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise activate an adrenaline rush multiple times during a single encounter or combat.

When the rogue uses this ability, she must select one type of response to make. As a swift action, she can change this response to another type.


  • Fight Response The rogue is filled with heightened heightened aggression and perception, gaining a +1 morale bonus on all attack
...

Honestly i dont think the rogue needs a great deal of help, power wise early on. Generaly the rogue doesnt have power issues untill around level 8 or so, becoming very noticable by around level 10 or 11. Plus adrinialine rush, thematicly feels more like a fighter or barbarian thing.


The main issues I have seen on the rogue come from his skills not being better than a bard, and his attack rolls not having any means of increasing.
Sneak attack is also limiting, feinting is a terrible feat chain to invest into.
The Counterfeit Mage had the right idea with giving more skills better numbers, but I would still like to see more from pathfinders skills ala skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
As far as combat goes, a rogue talent that allows feinting as a swift action, and the ability to boost your bluff check and attack rolls by an amount equal to the number of sneak attack dice granted by your class ability would probably work.
Not unlike alchemist discoveries for poisons, I would like to see rogue talents that increase the number of different kinds of enemies that can be hit with sneak attack.


Kekkres wrote:
Honestly i dont think the rogue needs a great deal of help, power wise early on. Generaly the rogue doesnt have power issues untill around level 8 or so, becoming very noticable by around level 10 or 11. Plus adrinialine rush, thematicly feels more like a fighter or barbarian thing.

In terms of the crunch, it's a fairly sound mechanic and not a lot of help early on. Like an inquisitors judgement, it is gradual, but scales at a slower rate. Thematically, it is a very "human" thing, be it man, woman, child, and pretty much every mammal on the planet. Fluff can be changed, "thematically," I could call it "Expertise" or "Savvy" (or any number of other things), yank fatigue, and refluff the rest of it to match.

You do not seem to care for it, however, and I'm not going to push - it was a thought that I hoped would help and I'm not married to it=). Since your issue, as you say, crops up at 8th level and higher, you could consider the following, instead:

You could allow the rogue to select the Noble Scion's Dilettante Studies as talents (6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th), however. It is a pretty versatile ability and compliments the rogue, in my opinion, quite nicely, allowing a rogue's chosen "niche" to be augmented based on playstyle.

master_marshmallow wrote:

The main issues I have seen on the rogue come from his skills not being better than a bard, and his attack rolls not having any means of increasing.

Sneak attack is also limiting, feinting is a terrible feat chain to invest into.
The Counterfeit Mage had the right idea with giving more skills better numbers, but I would still like to see more from pathfinders skills ala skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
As far as combat goes, a rogue talent that allows feinting as a swift action, and the ability to boost your bluff check and attack rolls by an amount equal to the number of sneak attack dice granted by your class ability would probably work.
Not unlike alchemist discoveries for poisons, I would like to see rogue talents that increase the number of different kinds of enemies that can be hit with sneak attack.

I agree with everything you've said, save the bit about increasing the number of different kinds of enemies that can be hit with sneak attack. The transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder reduced the number of enemies significantly, in my opinion.

As it stands, the only creature types remaining, save "special/unique" instances are elementals, incorporeal (unless using ghost touch), oozes, proteans (50% chance to ignore), and swarms. There are a lot more creature types immune to poisons than sneak attack and critical hits.


I think the biggest problem in combat is that Rogues are not suppose to fight fair. Yet, their talents are just so scatter brained and so.. minor that they don't really get this ability.

It honestly wouldn't be too hard to help them with this. But the problem is that right now you got ones like Sneaky Manuver where you take a penalty to your attack roll AND sacrifice your sneak attack damage to preform a limited selection of combat maneuvers that the rogue will be taking a bit of a penalty on as well that still provokes an AoO. (Since you know, they're a 3/4 bab class, and like they would generally be more dexy)

If you gotta spend 4-5 feats just to be able to really use a basic talent, its not a very good basic talent.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'd have Sneak Attack damage automatically included on any Vital Strike, for starters, and the Rogue should have the choice of doing SA instead of crit damage when critting. The former should be part of the Vital Strike feat, the latter part of the class (although it forces the Rogue towards high crit range weapons, which annoys me...but that's a weapon problem).

Turn their # of Sneak Attack dice into a competence bonus for all skills at max ranks, and you have a solid skill buff good at pretty much all levels.

But the real thing for skills is giving them additional abilities with ranks. This would neuter Bard Versatile Knowledge...they could get a high modifier, but without investment in those skills and actual ranks, not touch the higher abilities.

==Aelyrinth


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I did this to fix the rogue in my homegame. Feel free to mine it for whatever fixes you might want.


Kain Darkwind, so as not to jack Kekkres's, is there a thread of yours to discuss your modifications to the rogue talents?


This is the thread for discussion, though there isn't one on Paizo. I was really just offering it up in case it gives anyone on this thread ideas, though I'm more than happy to hear thoughts and suggestions.

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