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I have a clear line between power gamer and munchkin... many do not.
So where is my line between power gamer and optimizers in general? That they are good at it seems to be my line there. I just realized my line between power gamer and optimizer is the same as thejeff. If how well you do it is the line then that line moves a lot from person to person. And might actually be "The guy who optimizes better than I do is the power gamer".
I suppose in a way my differentiation between power gamer and munchkin is much the same. If the worst you do is trivialize encounters and make the GM hate himself for a while, you're a power gamer. If you single-handedly destroy the world and in a matter of seconds can wipe out every god in existence and still make it home in time for dinner... Munckin.
FlySkyHigh how do you differentiate that definition of power gamer from munchkin then? It looks like you are saying the two are the same. There is a line in the game; the rules. While in my definitions the main difference between power gamer and munchkin is their willingness to cross that line. They both seek uber characters.
I suppose for me, using your chain of terms, power gaming is Optimization taken to the extreme and then twisted. Munchkin is the extreme of Power Gaming, where nothing and no one matters but the absolute power of their character.
So for me to simplify it I guess:
Optimizer: Strong Character, inside the rules.
Power Gamer: Very Strong Character, Outside the rules.
Munchkin: UBER character, what are rules again?
Again so in your head power gamers ARE munchkins. Once you go outside the rules then you are the same as the other label. I fail to see the difference in breaking one rule vs three rules as any kind of difference.
I know a guy call him "Bob" that is an optimizer. He lives for combat and scours the rules for new combat options to exploit. Unfortunately for Bob he is horrible at optimization. I played with him back during 3.5e and he multiclassed and used level adjustment SO much that he ended up hurting his power more than he helped it. Was Bob somehow NOT an optimizer in your eyes because he sucked at it? He lived for the numbers side of the game. It was his passion. I say you don't NEED a strong character to be an optimizer, just an enjoyment of those numbers.
In Bob's eyes I am a power gamer. Since I build characters who are more effective than his. In my eyes I am a role player since I focus my enjoyment on the fluff side of the game not the numbers. In a way we are both right. Even though I don't consider myself a power gamer at all... to Bob I sure am. BUT I don't break any rules, so I am clearly NOT a munchkin in anyones eyes (hopefully).
Does this help my explanation?
The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of people seem to have this conception that people who Optimize or Power Game have little to no role-playing ability.
I wouldn't say that optimizers have little or no role-playing ability, but I would say that they, IME at least, place optimization or powergaming at a higher priority than role-playing.
The worst role-player at my table is also the worst optimizier. He doesn't have a head for numbers, and can't get outside the idea that his character is a completely separate and distinct entity from himself. As such, all of his characters tend to be the same kind of character with the same kind of personality.
However, the person at my table that I would label an optimizer also tends to be a poor role-player in so much that he has a difficult time role-playing a character that isn't incredibly amazing. If he's destroying monsters left and right and saving the other PCs, he gets invested in his character and does a decent job at RPing.
When he is not doing well mechanically, he is constantly wanting to retire/kill off his PC so that he can bring another one in. Each character is pretty much a heroic version of his real life self.
The players that are willing to sacrifice character power if obtaining such character power wouldn't fit with their character concept are what I would consider a good role-player, and as such a great addition to the group.
[Explains Bob]So Bob is technically a power gamer, but not functionally a power gamer.
You are not a power gamer in spirit or intent, but you are one in praxis.
Is that correct?
Yes in a way but since the title of power gamer is dependent on being better at it than someone else... there may not be very many people who would consider Bob a power gamer. While it is fairly clear I hope that he is an optimizer.
The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of people seem to have this conception that people who Optimize or Power Game have little to no role-playing ability.I wouldn't say that optimizers have little or no role-playing ability, but I would say that they, IME at least, place optimization or powergaming at a higher priority than role-playing...
I can see where that distinction comes into play. A lot of optimizers IME tend to look at optimization and character development hand-in-hand. They take things that improve their character both within the narrative and within the numbers. As you go further up the Optimizer-PowerGamer-Munchkin chain, this becomes less and less the case where numbers take over sole focus and the roleplaying falls completely aside.
Yes in a way but since the title of power gamer is dependent on being better at it than someone else... there may not be very many people who would consider Bob a power gamer. While it is fairly clear I hope that he is an optimizer.[Explains Bob]So Bob is technically a power gamer, but not functionally a power gamer.
You are not a power gamer in spirit or intent, but you are one in praxis.
Is that correct?
See, Now i understand where we differ. My view of it comes more from intent than practice. My main difference between power gamers and munchkins is that power gamers usually stay "within" the rules, but simply bend them to their absolute limits, therefore technically going outside the rules. Munchkins just straight up ignore rules that they don't like.
And I can refer to someone as a power gamer, even if they suck at it. I know several people who try desperately to break characters and do it badly. I try and make my character good without breaking any rules or exploiting anything, and am an optimizer, and just happen to be good at it.
Power gamers are optimizers who optimize more than you want.
Optimizers are power gamers who don't power game more than you want.
Well said!