Calling all Alpha participants, GW staff, and anyone with Alpha access! Come spend Thursday Night in Brighthaven for a large scale battle and event!
Thanks and I agree.
Point taken and that will be a factor that is still as yet unknown (agreeing with you there). The really low end new characters will definitely have problems getting by the defenses of the Vet but on the sliding scale, even if those new characters are even just a few weeks old it makes a tremendous difference in that gap. I was taking that into account but I haven't really run the numbers on just how effective a newb will be against the Vet on raw ability to be effective in your use of skills. From what I've found, even at low levels if a feat can cause a flat fitted state (%50 chance), it does so even if you are fighting a Vet. These factors can all change dramatically. I am actually in favor of the Vet having a bitter better chance because of all that time and effort put into the character and it may still weigh in heavier than I described above, but with the current data it appears more geared towards numbers trumping experience. They may add better ways to balance that as time goes on though. Still very few 1 hit kill type setups, but still giving the Vet a fighting chance against lesser foes.
I agree that many add in what they have experienced in other games, both expectations and disappointments, information given turning out to be false and never coming into being. I'm still hopeful that PFO becomes something new and different. It already is too me but maybe not to most.
I would have to say that a battle between 1 vet and 4 players only a month old would most likely go to the 4 players if they were at all coordinated. I would account for this based on synergy of feats, interrupts, knockdowns so forth that you have 4x the possibility of pulling off and could have those 4 players at level 6-8 in that time with decently rounded equipment. Even if a few levels lower 4 on one has a chance. If you are just talking stand in a circle and let the Vet line you up and hit you, he has a chance, but if you even spread out a little with some ranged, a Fighter and Rogue tag team, a cleric healing them and so forth, the Vet is going down. Maybe not easily but a very good portion of the time.
Sure when you look at just the numbers it goes the way of the vet but what happens when that Rogue disengages after the first 3 hits, has the Cleric heal him while the Fighter is knocking the Vet down, and the Wizard is freezing the Vet? As soon as the Vet gets the Fighter down a bit he makes a bit of a run for it and the Vet can chase all the while getting hit by the other three. The Vet is toast. Play out out in a real battle and that's what happens most of the time. Sure the Vet will have skills and tricks and equipment but with the graduated power curve as long as the 4 aren't day 1 characters I'm pretty sure they could own the Vet in that setup. Even if they are day 1 characters with experienced players they could wreck havoc. Again, play through it with the low level skills and equipment of 4 to 1 higher powered but still single opponent.
That is my take on things from playing over the last 2 months.
My personal feelings on the release is that they could release on the 15th of Sept and I would be fine with it. I don't have a concern about paying the subscription fee for a product that is not MVP. MVP hasn't been fully defined other than in broad terms. What I would like and that I believe we are getting with Alpha 8 is the server being up all week. At that moment, I would be willing to start paying a subscription fee. Even if my character was wiped. Even if all the systems aren't in for what some expect of MVP. The reason for this is that I'm here to play, with friends, with this community. Even if Alpha 7 or even Alpha 1 was what they decided was good enough for MVP I would still be happy to pay and participate. I know that isn't what most people think or feel. To me we already have more than I expected at this time. I'm perfectly happy to start with what we have and will be thrilled as reach new addition is added, each bug fixed. Doesn't effect me being willing and interested in playing what we have now (and even paying for it).
That is due to all of you. This community is the MVP for me. The game is just a place to host it, with more bells and whistles than the forums, and more being added weekly. If I can be in the game with all of you I'll be happy to wait until whenever they get around to adding the features as they can.
I have to say that this is true. Bluddwolf, and all the UNC, I have found pick their targets individually, even though they may on occasion refer to the entire TSV, usually they are speaking about certain individuals, and aren't holding anyone else accountable for what the leaders or individuals are saying...Doesn't mean they won't politely kill you and take your things, but if they do, it won't be because of what someone else in your guild said.
I honestly think only the die-hard fans are following this board, or even the development process, and you will see a huge influx of players who have no idea of what has been happening in the Landrush show up in the first month, looking for guidance, and a Company to be a part of. I know that my wife and children don't follow any of this, but all plan to play once it is released.
How many others have even just one other family member or friend that will be joining in once they can play? That alone could double the number of players. Plus once the announcement goes out to the Kickstarter backers that the game is live, most will show up, even if just occasionally. Sure there are some who won't bother, others who don't have an EE account and so forth. The release may drive them to get one though. We can only wait and see but I am hopeful.
I also agree that with the hybrid system as an MVP solution, but I have hopes that down the road there will be an expansion on that design that does not create those vulnerabilities or force players to work around them, but instead creates further ways to have manful interaction with the economy of the game through funds manipulation, weather that is through sacking a settlement, PVP or merchant interactions. I personally feel that treasure in the form of PP,GP,SP and CP is a core element in Pathfinder, and to remove that wholly from the Settlement/Nation level of a focused PVP game would detract in many ways. Economic warfare through the acquisition/destruction of your enemies supplies and funds, should be possible.
I don't think that the sacking of a settlement should give all of its members funds to the sacker, but possibly a portion of those funds that belong to the settlement via taxes, payments, and so forth. That way the players themselves would still have available funds to start over with in the case of a lost settlement, while still giving the victor more meaningful reasons to conquer their rivals.
At the Company level, this could possibly occur with the sacking of a POI, that is if any funds belong to the Company instead of just it's individual members. If the system is setup where upkeep for POIs is pulled from the Companies funds in the bank, this would work.
There are many ways the above could work, or could be worked around, depending on the mechanics, none of which are in place, or even planned to my knowledge. I feel a system could be built though, that would include many ways for these to be possible, without making the players suffer more than a normal death level of loss.
I do not want systems that punish inexperienced players or that can be gamed or worked around, but meaningful financial aspects of the game that keep the feel of Pathfinder, as well as PVP warfare, on a larger scope than the individual level. The individual level will be pretty well covered by the hybrid system. I do hope it is expanded to give more options down the road though.
Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V wrote:
Better yet is a large sack of gold on an unguarded merchant who should know better ;)
Chartered Company: The Veiled
Roleplaying: The Veiled is a sponsored company intent on having a good time no matter the outcome. Of course we love our home that lets us do what we do so we want to ensure it is safe and prosperous. Grab a good drink and come brawl with us while we work on controlling Towers in the wars for Phaeros, fight monsters and do some brewing with a bunch of like-minded folks who don’t mind doing what needs to be done. This group will be PvP centric and we will help our members to become PvP enabled while also handling PvE, whether that be stamping out those encroaching on our settlement or escalating the issues around our enemies. The Veiled is devoted to ensuring the freedoms of the River Kingdoms, and then some. We advocate self expression, fun and merriment even if someone "loses an eye". When it comes to defeating our enemies, we enjoy honest PvP combat. We aren't afraid to bring the fight to the enemy, be it lowly goblins or high level PvP. We intend to make our home in one of the controlling Towers surrounding Phaeros though we will roam throughout our lands. For us, the neutral and evil alignments we are associated with, are more about freedom than sadism.
Who can join: The Veiled seeks those who want to have fun, set fire to a goblin or three, enjoy life as it comes and be the sort of folk that your parents warned you about. If you are an individual looking for a good time while not worrying about being a goody two-shoes, looking for a good group of buddies to go out drinking and do some old fashioned brawling and don’t mind getting your hands dirty with all that brew please register on The Seventh Veil's Website then apply to The Seventh Veil here and then join The Veiled here.
What about all the people in TEO/T7V that had nothing to do with this? Some of whom I'm sure you recruited and weren't there for the decision? We are all lumped together in this hatred when there were but a few who did things that hurt or upset you. I don't think I have personally ever really had a conversation with you, even though I joined T7V before you left TEO. I am still KOS because I associate with people that upset you. I don't actually have a problem being KOS to anyone but T7V and TEO as a whole seem to be the wrong targets for your KOS policy. You know there are good people in both groups. Why not just keep your anger to those you feel directly wronged you and not try to create an "open season" view on all who are a part of these groups?
You are of course welcome to do as you wish, it will be your game to play just as it is ours but, it's a game to have fun in, hopefully not hold grudges in RL about. What you have said about TEO/T7V members just sounds like someone who intends to grief anyone with that tag or affiliation in game. By all means fight with us in game if there is a legitimate reason, but don't use your passion and emotion generated by your loss of your guild against all us others who never harmed you. Don't make it your mission (as it seems to be) to ruin the fun for all T7V/TEO members when it is just a few who you hate.
I personally am totally fine with you treating me as KOS, that is fun for me. I like PVP and hope to improve through interactions like that but I know there are a lot of others who it won't be anything other than you trying to ruin their fun because of the settlement they live in and who never even knew about what happened.
My 2 copper.
I personally think that while a lot of people think that Ryan has some special power as the CEO of GW to say something and have it done, if he had done so, made a statement that was for or against Golgotha being in the Landrush, said just about anything at all (and he did say things), someone would have torn him up for it. He is the CEO of the game company making the game we all want to play. He talks to us, he does care greatly about us, and he is here listening to us every day. He may not always make what everyone sees as the right choice (no one can do that), but he says something and sticks with it even though some of us tear him a new one for being vague or saying something we don't agree with. He has no choice. Some would ignore him even if he did take a side. He has to be the epitome of TN in these matters but is also a person with 1 view and 1 voice and inevitably if he says anything at all someone is going to disagree with it, read into it, feel different about it than another would. He doesn't have the power to control this forum, only turn it on or off. At least we have his voice and his updates and his views and that gives us some insight into what his plans for PFO are.
I would just say leave him out of it and be happy he cares enough to talk with us. He could just stop talking to us. I'm sure with more manpower, more funds and more red tape the Landrush could have been setup smoother, but GW is juggling making the game and dealing with us before it's even out! I don't see many if any other companies out there that you will ever get to talk to the CEO of the company making your ideal game, that even would listen to a forum poster. In the end, he has a ton of pressure put on him, and we don't make it any easier but he is still here working for us, making our game and taking our $#!7 by the bucket daily.
Well, I'm not sure that all made sense and it's late but give the guy a break, it's 11pm for him and he is still here answering us. If that doesn't show he cares, I don't know what does.
Here is my personal view of things. I read the entire thread and have not commented for or against anything. I am in the T7V so that may make people think I have a biased viewpoint but I'm not stating this as a member of T7V, just as a person wanting to play PFO.
Pax is a guild. It has many divisions to meet all it's members needs. PFO doesn't allow all members of extremely different alignments to work from the same settlement. This means they will have to have different settlements to meet all their members needs and depending on what a given player's needs are they are funneled to the correct division that will meet those needs. They are 1 guild though or they would not be Pax gaming and there would be no confusion.
At this point all members of Pax in any division just want to play the game and have a settlement to do it from if they can (and they can with the numbers they have). What I would propose is to release the restrictions on all LR1 winners (as far as allowing them to help other guilds/divisions win a settlement with new members, but not have those that already voted for them in LR1 re-vote) and take Pax out of the NAMES on the Landrush leader board. Then if any of the winners of LR1 who have members that haven't voted, want to help other guilds win a settlement (that they will be part of because of alignment needs and possibly make a new nation), they can use their votes for that and all divisions of Pax can participate (even Fidelis) as individual entities as far as needs of a settlement go, and so can the others. It is fair for all and will just breed more people playing the Landrush game, more people helping others to build the community and no one loses anything. Would GW accept this as a possible solution? All that has to happen is the PAX gets removed from the NAMES on the leader board and the confusion goes away. Then let all be equal and make devisions and play the game!
"The Goodfellow" wrote:
Thanks Goodfellow, I have been on the boards since before the first Kickstarter as I am a P&P PFS player. I didn't use this alias and never posted much so no one had heard of me but I've always been shadowing the boards and pretty much been here from the start. I don't post all that often but have more over the last few months since I officially joined T7V. Suffice to say I read just about everything though and have seen what the UNC has been trying to do and be even if I don't always agree with you, Bludd or Xeen.
I also hope that coming from someone outside your group that I could help settle the waters and welcome the UNC into the fold, maybe even eventually have the UNC as real allies if it works out that way (not my decision though as I am only a member and have no rank in T7V). Even if never allies, I truly hope to have many encounters with the UNC both as friends and enemies to hone skills, give me something to fight for or against and just add to the game world. I'm willing to be content for others, I'm willing to be the bad guy for the good guys to kill, to make their experience more fun, challenging and entertaining or flip the coin and fight the bad guys, and I hope the UNC are the best bad guys in EE, a group for us all to have fun fighting against, as our characters, not as players. As players I hope to go up against you and yours and lose (or win) and learn and afterwards have a nice chat and laugh about it. Have fun with it as it is a game and to be enjoyed even when you lose as you gained greater understanding in that loss.
Very few may share this view, but as I've said, I welcome the UNC and the diversity you bring while still trying to be the best bad guys (and OOC good guys) out there for all the good guys to go up against. Honestly, I think there will be so many good guys that you may have trouble just keeping up and may not be enough content for us all.
So, hopefully I have reached out to those on the opposite side of this argument as well and shown that while the UNC may not be helpful or beneficial in an in character sense, and Bludd may be one of the most stubborn in always keeping to his views as correct or what have you, the real purpose they have is the same as ours, to have fun in an PVP MMO by being content as we will all be, and promote positive game play while at the same time playing that hardest of roles by being the bad guys (and we need bad guys!) while still being, as players, good guys who we can work with. OF course if they don't actually play that way, we will all see it and easily agree that is the case but if we welcome them, work with them, and in game have someone to fight, send our new players to learn the ropes of what the bad guys will will do and learn from them, I think they can be a real part of this accord. We can send our new recruits, knowingly through UNC areas (once trained) to learn from their battles, with both sides as players working together to make things better. Sure in game someone loses, and someone wins, but thats what a game is, and what better way to play than have it be a game between friends? To me that is Player Assisting Player (PAP) but Character vs Character (CVC) and the best option we have instead of outright enemies in game and out.
So, what do you all think of my ramblings?
This is not the opinion of T7V or anyone in the Roseblood Accord, it is mine and mine alone.
The way I see it is that UNC is a bandit group in game, they will do all the things Bandits do, take from the rich or pour and give to themselves and that is their purpose. I truly feel the game will need this, it needs the bad guys to have something to fight against, a challenge to go up against that isn't full blown war or feuding but just your every day PVP action in a day of playing. Of course they will try to build systems up to make their gameplay more fun and give them options, that is what the game is for them and I truly feel it has a place in this game.
That being said I feel that it is a very good sign that they are planning to be the bad guys (because we will need bad guys to have something to work against) but are yet openly and willingly promoting and trying to be a part of the group that is in agreement with positive game play. They are trying to work with the rest of the community to make the game better but still play their part knowing it will be the hard one. Knowing that they will be the ones that most people point at when someone yells "Griefer!", they are trying to add a needed, even if negative, element, but at the same time make it as positive as possible.
I personally have some empathy for this as my character design is an Assassin, in a group of knowledge seekers (who are mostly neutral or good) and I very much want to be a part of my guild, but also want to be able to play my character as who he is. It is a hard line to follow as Assassins are evil, uncaring and often cruel or unfeeling. Yet I am part of one of the major guilds and initiators of the Roseblood Accord. I will do the dirty work of the guild if there is any to do, I will be the dark side of our group (if I can pull it off), but I am totally and completely behind this accord and positive game play and completely against griefing and anything that makes the game less. We all (including the UNC) want this game to be amazing. We all want to play our part and be part of something bigger, and make this game as much fun as possible for everyone. And it is my belief (and it may not be shared) that the UNC, taking on the position of "bad guys" but trying to do it and work with us to be the good "bad guys", giving us content to work against in game, but working with us out of game to make that as meaningful as possible is the best situation we could have.
They are bandits, avowed and knowingly the enemy of most, in a world where that is needed to create challenges for the "good guys", in a world based on meaningful interactions that has to have Characters against other Characters to make it worth while, but with the players behind those characters reaching out in friendship to try and be part of the positive game play group. I am for their participation if they mean it and work with us. Yes, they may raid us, hold us up, take our things, destroy our POI and so forth as everyone not in a specific alliance with us may do and any PVP or CVC in the game would also do, even if they aren't calling themselves bandits, but at least they are open and willing to work with us to make the game better for everyone in a meta-game fashion. They can work with us and those new to the game to show the positive side to being the bad guys and do their best to show people how to do that without being "griefers".
I hope to be the same in my role. I may not be able to pull it off and instead will turn into a rogue because the game system makes the character concept unworkable, but I hope to at least attempt to be the bad guy who thinks he is the good guy doing what needs to be done, for greater knowledge and fun for everyone.
I also hope that I have not upset anyone in my guild with my opinions in this matter or my difference of view as these are the people I want to play the game with, but I truly feel that we need the UNC and people like them in the game and if they want to be a part of this accord I feel it can only make the game better as they are trying to do it in the most positive way possible while still holding true to their character type.
Anyone out there agree with me or am I off my rocker? (always knew i had some screws loose).
In Pathfinder TT there is unconsciousness before death. In the recent Video at 2:09 it looks like the fighter falls to the rogue with a small bit of red (HP) left. From checking the past threads I couldn't find anything definitive on this point. In PVP it looks to have unconsciousness where you could possibly be healed before dying or conquer your opponent without killing them and still loot them. In PvE it looked to be that the monsters went to 0 HP and fall. Anyone have some detail on this or know if it is set to have unconsciousness and an opportunity to heal before death or have mercy but still win in PVP?
It might be possible to have a sliding mechanic on the Rep gain/loss proportional to the SAD % amount requested. If a SAD is requested for a low percentage or reasonable amount and accepted more Rep is gained. If it is denied then there would be little or no Rep loss to killing the denier. If instead the SAD amount was a high % amount and was accepted, the Bandit would get less Rep for acceptance and if denied would get a larger Rep loss for killing. That may not work with the mechanics though.
Welcome! I totally understand and that is much the same reason I lurked as long as I did. At this point I don't always offer up much in the way of mechanic suggestions but just am posting to be part of the community. The bigger we make the community and include everyone the better the game will go as we will have already established relationships to help sort out the chaos of EE and OE with known factors. So get involved even if it is just to agree or disagree here and there. I don't have the mind to keep up with all the logistics as some do but I have found a place none the less.
This may already be included but if a Settlement sets a Tax rate / Tax law (and hopefully these can very depending upon what type of product is being bought or sold) and you make a trade within the settlement or it's lands, then you have a choice to ignore this tax during the transaction. By doing so you take an alignment hit/Rep hit by both parties for breaking the law or doing something underhanded. The same would go for illegal trade goods. You can buy or sell them, but if you do and there is a law against it, then you take the Align/Rep hit. This would effectively cause merchants/crafters to loose LG and start heading towards Chaotic and Evil with the repercussions to their Settlement in Align/Unrest and so forth and count as smuggling as well when you do it. Possibly have a "Get caught" mechanic chance and be fined as well. You could have a skill that allowed you to do this with less chance of "being caught" and this could effectively take the Rep penalty away but would not remove the Alignment penalties because these point to your character morals and not what others see you as (Rep).
Edit: This could still include inspection posts to increase the chance of "Being caught" as well as take the option to bypass the tax away while the post was active in your area. The Post could also take actual goods as a tax instead of just part of the cost.
Just and idea. Feel free to tear it apart. :)
Pax Deacon wrote:
Just trying to find out how many more of us are out there in the pre-game community. So basically if you plan on playing evil, just poke your head in.
Sorry for going off on CE only. NE and LE seem like they will be playable and have quite a following of those intending to play them. CE on the other hand seems to be the most argued about.
I stand behind my proposal that we just PLAY CE and show GW it can work. By the time the end game comes around, by the time we have full settlements, by the time we need the training that CE has been cut off from, we could have proven the system and GW can make something to allow for those players without opening it up to griefers. We are the people playing the game, it's HOW we play it that will matter and make GW change it.
The system they have now allows us to play CE and as I see it, CE is only nerfed in the later game because we can't find a settlement to call our own but we won't even have PC settlements until the end of EE and into OE so we have plenty of time. GW can adjust things. We can make it work and stop trying to make them change it before we see HOW it works. You never know, CE may end up working great and having everything it needs to balance it out even though it looks like it will be nerfed in the late game. Don't let that stop you from setting your character to CE and RPing the hell out of it without becoming what the system is trying to stop.
I'm pretty sure we will find it is viable in many ways that we don't expect and can't see right now. It may be something where if training can be sold, that is what CE groups are paid in even from LG settlements and we can have a contract that once fulfilled we get the training time. I'm sure being ever so slightly lawful to complete the contract won't save our souls and we can stay CE quite easily.
Lets just give it a go and leave it alone until we can!
I have read thread after thread and post after post of "alignment/CE will suck/CE shouldn't suck/Use Rep instead" and so forth. While I intend to play the neutral band, I may here and there slip into E or G on my main and would like to explore the CE band on occasion. We all know that GW is developing the game under their own methods and rules and has stated that CE will be lesser. Why? Because it is... when played as Chaotic Stupid, and with any computer based game you can't get all the nuances of TT so 95% or more of the time CE evil will be played as Chaotic Stupid and a greifer or what looks like a greifer to everyone not playing that character, because it doesn't translate well, doesn't have enough detail to really play CE in the RP way without also playing it in the greifer way most of the time. Again 95%+ are going to end up looking like greifers, no matter what they intend, based on the actions that alignment normally takes and can take in a programed system. It doesn't matter if you kill someone, because you thought they had something of value you wanted to steal, if there is no way for that to look like a legitimate RP reason and matching your alignment through game mechanics. From their side it's greifing. Lets find a way within the system to make that action not greifing but actual RP.
My proposal is that those of us that have an interest in being CE in some way take the opportunity in Alpha and EE to really shine. To explore the game mechanics that GW creates (as they are NOT changing them, no matter how much we argue over it) and actually PLAY CE characters and show them it can be done without greifing in the game. We will find out if it IS possible or if CE really is the alignment of greifing or just Chatoic Stupid is. During this process we would have to test the boundaries of the system and find the lines where CE becomes CS. We would have to not care that the system is going to penalize us for this choice at first. Unless we can prove to GW we can make it work, without ruining the system they have created to keep the greifers at bay, they won't have any reason to change it.
I think that as a developer of games for people like us, if we can prove a system where we can have the CE alignment and not make it greifing or a bag of jerks, then they can recalibrate the system to be more lenient on those who choose CE, build more or different options for the CE groups. Maybe CEs don't have big settlements at all but end up creating Camps in wilderness hexes that can pack up and move to the next one, or hidden lairs of cultists (like outlaws have) but give us all the training we need for our chosen roles. I would think this small group of CE done right characters would need to make it their top priority to find and take out (read as "stop") all the CS greifers that aren't playing it right (and I'm sure there will be many at first) and make it a top notch group that has a legitimate place in the game. Steelwing's Road Warriors, the Barbarian Hoard (for hire!), the Kamikaze Assassins, Necromacers R Us and groups of a similar nature. GW can then really asses how it is working in the game then and we can get what we want. The system will evolve because we crowdforge it into something worth having, not by arguing over it, but by SHOWING them it can be done within the bounds they give us. We won't be building settlements right off the bat. We will have time to make it work. The hard part is how to get a bunch of selfish, greedy, backstabbing CE evil characters to work together in the first place. Give them a common goal! A selfish one, that gets them something they really want! In this case it is being who they really are!
Rumple…. uh, I'm never getting out of here!
on a side note. *click*, *click*, *click*…..hundreds of times at this point.
Do you have room in there for a human as well? I great at hiding in small spaces even without the gnome sized advantage!
I will and do even now. I just hope that we can give a plethora of options in other areas as well. Settlement building is great, settlement warfare will be a lot of fun. The social interaction will also be great. I don't expect the PnP game (though I too wish it could be) but I truly hope for a lot of the feel of it.
I'm for a system where you only know what you can determine by sight. This means that unless you know the character you would not even see their name or if they were hostile or a friend until there was meaningful interaction or possibly some sort of inspection to gather some further clues. If you do know them, have interacted before or they are part of your settlement or allies then you would get more information. Leaves quite a bit of mystery and doesn't tell you much on if you should or shouldn't tangle with the character before you make your decisions. Add to this more detail if you SAD and interact with them or come into close contact to inspect one another. Also feels more like Pathfinder to me as you never know who might be sitting at the bar across the room and only get what you can see. I think it would be fun.
I feel you. Since Steelwing arrived with his EVE corp view from null sec and how they do things it has seemed a bit grim for those not into that play style. Almost like greifing (@Steelwing, not actual greifing, but I would say you are the most combative and righteous in your views but precisely careful as well) the forums with a come back for every positive post or constructive idea to give the impression of a game completely geared towards his groups gaming style of dominate EVERYTHING with ways around any system designed so that it doesn't work that way. That works for them and will be the part of the game they focus on. I like reading his posts because they give a view I think we all need to hear.
There will be groups like that...but some of us are focusing on what we hope other parts of the game will be, a richer world with more to do than kill or dominate everyone else in the most serial killer type mechanical unfeeling fashion possible. The game for them is to game the system and "win" for whatever that means to them. The game for me is a Fantasy Sandbox to build, create, play, socialize, explore and fight in both PVE and PVP ways. There will definitely be groups like that as well as even Steelwing mentioned.
We are all looking forward to this game and I think we will all have fun at it and it will not be nearly as bleak of a picture as is painted on these boards at times.
I would say +1 on the Rep and Alignment sections and Karma is interesting but I have no idea if GW would consider it and as Steelwing says, some will just have multiple accounts to get around this or just as their standard practice.
I have 3 accounts myself, although I intend 1 as my main with the 2nd and 3rd for family and friends and not as a backdoor to be toxic and not have it effect my main.
@Pax Shane and Leperkhaun
I think for LE settlements you could just kill the characters but for LG and LN you need a mechanic. As Pax Shane described, so way to get them off your land. This wasn't the intent of this thread but having a similar system to SAD but for settlements, a Cease and Desist (CAD) where you could request papers, contracts, tolls or taxes and allow possibly a temporary (timed) blue status to get their business done or could even assign an NPC guard to escort the trespasser off your territory if that was the end result of the Cease and Desist. If they break the deal, they lose Rep, get an alignment hit and the guard(s) get to kill them and loot to bank or whoever issued the CAD. No magic teleport, no taking control of someone else's character, but you still have the option of killing or extracting resources, controlling your territory and don't just have the option of kill or ignore.
I'm pretty sure this has been suggested before and could just be an extension of the SAD system or even just further options of the SAD system. It could even extend into a Assist and Defend system for proactive assistance to others even if not directly involved with a fight giving others the option for a short term alliance to pick a side and jump in without getting flagged as a criminal or something similar.
I think that if a SAD system is valuable then a non-lethal carry people away type of mechanic can be worth the time to create it.
I still feel that this action is Evil even if Lawful. It is a lack of care for life, circumstances or having compassion. Making someone a criminal because they came on your land and having the penalty be death is a valid game mechanic and completely lawful. If that is the law of the land then that land is ruled by evil even though pragmatic and what the game may enforce as LG.
I feel that a policy of NBSI is always LE unless it isn't truly NBSI and is simply determine if said party will become Blue, can work out a deal, comes in peace and so forth and if this fails then shoot it.
I have never heard of any Pathfinder city that was LG or LN and if they saw a merchant caravan coming to their gates they weren't familiar with, would send out the guard to for all intents and purposes murder and rob them. This is a LE action, it is not neutral or good even if there is a law about it.
I may not fully understand how NBSI works in EVE but by the sound of it there is no warning or communication, just annihilation, shoot first and ask no questions later. Please feel free to educated me be if that is not the case.
If that is the case I would feel a LG community would slide towards LE and arrive there promptly. If that isn't built into the game and being LG means just being Lawful and forget the Good bit then alignment has lost its meaning and is just a game mechanic for you to use as efficiently as possible.
Well, I would expect nothing less in a group like yours. The entire concept is not something that I thought or would expect your organization to be open to except to take advantage of if you can find a way. It isn't about what it can do for you but about what we can do for each other.
I am mentioning this now in the hopes that we can crowdforge and possibly have the devs add into the design a way for NRDS to be an effective and option rich choice instead of just a settlement open to being taken advantage of.
The whole premise of NBSI seems to align very well with LE Alignment and in PFO if the entire design is around that premise for PVP then LE is what the world will be no matter what your settlement's Alignment is set to.
I want other options because LE is not how the entire River Kingdoms is. Sure, some communities will be LE but would a LG or NG settlement really be NBSI? Only if that is the only game mechanic the system is programed to operate with.
Lets make a better system where all Alignments and NRDS works just as well as LE and NBSI
I have to admit it is a bit confusing and having read most of your posts it seems the farthest from your group's intended play style so would be even more confusing.
It essentially comes down to the community of players making the neutral/safe zones of PFO without it being an NPC game mechanics safe zone (something I would really rather be left to starter characters) or in the sense of it still being completely open to PVP but not a constant territorial warfare zone or NBSI area. Still PVP but the total opposite end of the spectrum from "toxic" PVP type situations.
As Vwoom mentioned, no settlement will have everything it needs and there should be plenty of options and locations for even un-allied settlements to work together effectively to fill those gaps without pointing their guns at each other in a Mexican Standoff because everyone not blue is effectively red. From your statements on this forum that is your intended way of playing (on your settlement's controlled land). I could only assume you would expect the same in anyone else's controlled lands therefore putting you into the above described scenario whenever not on your lands.
I don't have a solution to anything in regards to my PAP designs, as it will be either something we crowdforge, or that the devs build if they deem it is needed. My hope is that even if there is nothing in the game to allow for it that we as a community can build it ourselves. Maybe a settlement that is player run but built as a neutral hub. Sure you can still get Assassinated there or have a tavern brawl but it isn't NBSI. Work together even if in general you would see everyone as an enemy.
Maybe that clarifies a little but then again, it is a strange concept and I may not be communicating it very well. I have played RPGs for 25 or more years and while there are always enemies out there in them, there are so many more neutral and then the few that become allies.
Have fun with the settlement warfare, banditry and PVP options but don't make that ALL there is to a Sandbox PVP world, the only thing to think about in the game being to dominate everyone else. Makes for a very lonely world, with eventually only you in it if you play well enough. Win everything and you lose in the end because you run out of game, no competition, no one can touch you, no fun to be had. Or maybe that is fun for some but it isn't to me.
I've been lurking these boards long enough to have a pretty good handle on how the game is shaping up as a whole and the more I read the more I see the Sandbox of meaningful interaction heading in the direction of a PFO full of one against all. By that I mean that a huge portion of the focus of the game is centered on PVP, confrontation, taking what others have created or ruining/destroying anyone not on your side/team.
While this can be fun and I fully intend to play this game no matter what comes out in the end, I had always imagined a Sandbox where the Players build the world and make the story as giving us more options to have Players Assisting Players or PAP.
When I read over these forums I see so many ways shaping up to destroy everyone else and as territory warfare is the object of the game now, it seems like each settlement will be an island in an ocean of enemies (with maybe a couple of other linked islands or allies). The ocean is everyone else and I for one wish to have more options to build and assist others and not have the only option be that we are only allies or enemies. There is a large world to build and I would love to see more options for being neutral to other settlements but being able to help each other grow, trade services, training, resources and other meaningful interactions that don't force everyone into a dichotomy of ally/enemy at every turn. I am not against PVP at all though.
I know that in order for you to have a game you have to have apposing sides, ways for you to have meaningful interaction, build teams, overcome obstacles, create a CC, Settlement, or Kingdom eventually. I know this isn't a PVE centered game and I don't want it to be so. What I do want to see is just as many options to help each other as to attack each other. Just as many ways to help that other settlement next door as to destroy it but not have to ally with everyone in all settlements to do so. Sure there should be perks to being allies that you don't get with simply assisting in some mutual way but when there is no neutral ground you always have to make the decision of ally or enemy to have meaningful interaction. I don't want to always have every other player be suspect unless an ally. If they are an enemy though, game on, play it to the hilt and annihilate them...or make peace if that is possible. Life isn't black and white, there is a ton of grey that we can play with. I'd like to see that filled with options.
Before everyone tells me that you can stay neutral and don't have to make everyone friends or enemies, I know that, but I don't think it very likely in a PVP world to have that be the case based on what I've seen and read on these forums. It will be kill or be killed unless you make another option. I'm just looking for ways to give those other options for the middle ground and not only options for allies or enemies. These may exist and just are not focused on. These may not be desired by anyone but myself.
What do others think?
This is so true. When I came to these boards over a year ago I instantly saw Nihimon as an Opinion Leader as well as Erudite. When I thought of joining a company it was The Seventh Veil I was drawn to based on his messages on the boards. I'm not a member yet but plan to be once I can find the time to flesh out my character backstory and properly join. I don't say much but this was definitely worth commenting on! Well done and congrats and thank you Nihimon!
I hardly ever post but wanted to at least give a "Hear Hear" to this thread. I read all the blogs and PFO forums and got in on the Kickstarter in the first few days so have been following along the entire time. Bludd does always provide new viewpoints and this thread is a great sentiment so again, "Hear, Hear"!