My concern about PvP: "It's a bird. It's a plane. It's Superman!"


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

When I read the discussions about PvP here, a lot of it concerns which rules will make it fair and fun, how it will be organized and so on.

One fundamental question I have when reading these types of discussions is how people will be able to tell if they have any chance of even fighting back.

Given that the game will have progression, we can assume that a player that has played longer not only is likely to hold an advantage in game knowledge, but his character will have progressed further and might simply have better stats for combat.

We know that the game will not promote "twitch" skill and that reaction time and aim will play little if any role in combat, so what chance will a new player have against a veteran?

More importantly, how are we able to tell if we are facing a scrub or a fluent speaker of the 1337?

In other tab-target MMOs (EQ clones), a level advantage is usually enough to determine the outcome of a fight unless there are extreme mistakes being made and capitalized on. It might be enough to simply see that an opponent has a lot of progression on their character.

On the other hand, if weapons and fighting styles follow a sort of rock-paper-scissors balance, then a low-powered rock could still destroy the finest scissors in the land. Or what if the progression was mostly in non-combat stuff?

Seeing a masterful baker rob a paladin would be pretty hilarious.

Is anyone else concerned with this or is it considered a non-issue because people will fight to the death no matter what?

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, "new players" will be at a nearly insurmountable disadvantage to "old vets" one-on-one. However, a swarm of new players will stand a decent chance of killing that old vet, which is definitely not the case in most other MMOs. For example, in Wow, a single level 80 character will easily be able to defeat a virtually infinite number of level 20 characters.

Nightdrifter has done a lot of analysis of likely damage based on difference in attack and defense skills in Tier 1 damage. I encourage you to look over that thread if you're interested in looking at it mathematically.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

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While it's too early to say how any sort of rock-paper-scissor balancing between classes will play out, within a class we can know a bit already about who will win one-on-one.

Attack bonus/ref/fort/will bonuses are less important than the keywords on your weapon/armor. Significantly so in many cases. So barring some massive difference in those skills the weapons/armor used will play a much bigger role in determining the fight.

As far as I understand each tier of gear has:
0-2 major keywords (0 for T1, 1 for T2, 2 for T3)
1-4 minor keywords

It takes 4 minor keywords to match a major, so having a higher tier piece of gear is pretty much always better than the lower one, for not only the keywords but also for the fact that the tier has a huge effect on your rolls. So more than anything when facing your own class the tier of your armor and weapon are the key factors in saying who will win.

The tier of someone's equipment should be obvious based on what it looks like (presumably higher tier looks nicer/fancier).

So the short answer would be: If they are in higher tier equipment than you you're probably screwed. If you're in higher tier equipment it won't be much of a challenge.

Edit: in some extreme cases the higher tier armor makes you invulnerable to the lower tier weapons. Switching damage types overcomes this, but that gets into the fuzzier and less understood realm of cross-class combat.

Goblin Squad Member

To add onto Nihimon's point group size is not a concern in sandboxes. Even if you exceed the maximum group size you can just run several groups coordinated on voice comms. Every player adds strength to their group with the amount added depending on a combination of character stats, gear strength, and player skills. So as a level 1 you may add a lot less than a level 20 but you still add something.

I wouldn't even think of it in terms of a mass of newbs zerging down a vet. In most cases there will be both vets and newbs on both sides.

Goblin Squad Member

I think it's basically a bit like EVE (again): Look at it through the prism of The Group.

Goblin Squad Member

The reportedly flat (relatively speaking) power curve should be mentioned , coupled with how long it is expected for a player to reach cap (5 years, wasn't it?)

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Nightdrifter's summary is accurate.

One thing not mentioned is that the Tier difference is likely to be strongly center-weighted. That is, Tier 2 gear will probably be much more common than Tier 1 or Tier 3. We expect that most players will be able to use Tier 2 gear after a month or so, but won't be able to use Tier 3 until after the first year. Even when you can use Tier 3, you can thread several more pieces of Tier 2 gear and Tier 3 is likely to be far more expensive, so we think it's likely that even veterans may use Tier 2 for their "running around" gear, and only put on the Tier 3 stuff when they know it's worth the risk. So being able to figure out the Tier of a target's gear will, indeed, be the best way to know if you're outclassed, but you may see that gradations within Tier 2 make up a substantial amount of your play.

We've discussed trying to boil equipped feats and gear down into a relative "level" that you can compare yourself to at a glance (or which automatically compares your calculated level to your target's to indicate your relative strength). But that kind of thing would likely be very easy to game to present a weaker or stronger front than actually present (and may be wrong in a lot of cases even if someone's not trying to game it). So we're not sure if we'll have something like that, or what it would be based on.

Having a good group that knows how to play together and being able to recognize different armor and weapons on your opponents will probably be key to successful PvP.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

I guess one thing I forgot is hp. There are supposed to be feats/skills to train to up your hp, so that can vary. It's not clear to me from the videos we've seen whether your opponent's hp will be displayed or if it's just what % health they're at. Granted it's pretty easy to estimate someone's hp if you know your damage output and what % they're at.

Stephen: Do you guys know yet if it's possible (and allowed) for us to create add-ons to the UI? Also, will there be a combat log? I ask because I keep thinking about an add-on which would parse combat logs to give approximations of your opponent's stats.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Long-term, as far as I know, we don't mind if people mod the UI, but I have no idea how hard that is for programming to make possible in the short term. We do expect to send combat data, and I expect savvy people will be able to intercept and parse it in interesting ways. Ideally, if we find that people are using a mod/add-on to do something useful that they can't with the game UI, we'll be able to incorporate that functionality into the UI. Again, though, no telling how hard that might be, so it's very possible that certain useful data features will be available for a while only via add-on until we have time to add it to the game.

We're not expecting to send anything to the client that we don't want players to know. However, there may be a lot of that data that we can't figure out how to display in a way a human will be able to parse easily, so it may not start with a very big impact on the UI. If we find that players have made an add-on to display that information in a way that's usable (or just made the raw info available to themselves because they perceive an advantage in trying to parse it even though it's complex), we'd be very interested in exploring how to put that functionality into the main game.

Goblin Squad Member

Honestly I would like to basically have no info about other players unless im grouped up or in a company.

If I see another guy and we face off I should just be able to see his health bar with no numbers on it and his name (i dont think guild tag should be displayed either). I shouldnt be able to see class or anything else. if im good i should be able to take a look at his gear and get a good feel for what methods she will use. If I see someone in full plate with a two handed sword, I have a good guess that its either a fighter or a paladin. if I see someone in robes and using a staff, they are probably an arcane spell caster.

If i look real close i might be able to go...hmmm that looks like adamantine plate....T3 stuff...time to run away. If i (the player) am not that good I might attack them thinking they are in T2, while they are in full T3 and have an advantage over me.

At no time should i see a player's level.

As for the UI i think wildstars did something pretty interesting. Basically they built their UI around having add ons as a core feature, the result is that their UI is actually just add ons that are native to the game.

One thing I dont want to see with UIs is having a UI creates a huge advantage over not having it, ala wow raid warnings and such.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

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Thanks Stephen!

@leperkhaun: Just to be clear I wasn't advocating for seeing an opponent's stats directly. It's possible - using a basic knowledge of the combat system, your own stats, some basic probability, and the combat log - to determine a rough idea of what your opponent's stats are.

To give you an idea of how it could be done:
1) Grab info from the combat log (ie. parse it in some way).
2) Make a list of the amount of damage that your opponent did to you with a given attack.
3) Knowing how the penalty for not getting a full hit works (see the Murder by Numbers blog if you want details), figure out which combinations of base damage and damage factor your opponent could have which could possibly give those partial hits. (This part involves knowing your own stats.)
4) Now, looking at the few possibilities for base damage and damage factor that could give that list of partial hits, figure out the relative probabilities of each combination of stats (using Bayesian statistics). Then simply normalize the probabilities.
5) Output a list of possible enemy stats and their probabilities to the UI.

Further, if you know theorycrafting, you can add to the above procedure to optimize your combos/gear/slotted feats/etc. against that specific opponent once you know roughly what their stats are.

So with a bit of patience this system could be used to determine NPC stats. Obviously people who PVE would benefit from knowing roughly what key NPC stats are. It could also be useful in pvp if you face off against certain opponents repeatedly.

I have a little python script to do most of steps 2-4 already. It's hardly optimized for running, taking ~30s on my laptop. A large part of that 30s is due to the script running over too many possibilities (all 3 tiers, damage factors from 1.0 to 1.9* and the absolute maximum range of difference between base damage and resistance). I could probably reduce it to ~5s or less once I optimize it. Fights definitely take longer than that, so you could be learning your opponent's stats as you fight him, adjusting your tactics based on what you learn.

*This range is purely to cover a large range of damage factors. The only example damage factor we've seen is 1.4 (for a longsword). I expect that in practice they range from 1.2-1.6 or so, depending on weapon type, the attack used and damage type.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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leperkhaun wrote:
Honestly I would like to basically have no info about other players unless im grouped up or in a company.

Obfuscating information is extremely prone to failure.

On one hand, take the script that Nightdrifter has just proposed. This is similar to the "Brawl Index" City of Heroes worked up in the early days of the game: even with no official statements of hard numbers on effects, the players quickly worked everything out (relative to the "Brawl" attack that all players had access to and used as a control). That is, even if we don't tell you exact numbers, it won't take long for players to reverse engineer them.

On the other, we have to send some information to the client. We have to tell your client what to draw. We have to tell you what percentage of your hit points you lost. If I'm sending you details to draw your opponents, it's possible to hack your client so those instructions are translated in a way that can send you warnings (e.g., "I'm drawing a Tier 3 suit of Plate," "I'm animating a Whirlwind attack, use an Interrupt!" etc.). If I'm sending you information about your current status and that of your opponent, even very simplified, you can use a script like Nightdrifter's to work out what's going on.

These things together mean that if we attempt to hide information from the players, it will be in the interests of technically-minded players to try to reveal it through whatever clues we have to provide. In a world where we expect you to use your intuition and player experience to understand what's going on in a fight, what actually happens is that the skilled players are beaten by players running add-ons, and more casual players are at a serious disadvantage to both of them.

So instead, we're erring on the side of making as much information available as we can without being overwhelming (and leaving the door open to provide even more info than that if we can figure out a good way to make it optional, especially if modders have already gotten at it and been using it). We've been working very hard to make the core presentation of it in the UI easy for even newer players to parse (and I'd bet that the next time you see screenshots, you'll see some of the new UI work :) ).

You're welcome to turn down the amount of info on the screen (and I honestly think a lot of it will become intuitive to skilled players and they won't need to see the details), but we're not going to deny the information to everyone. Trying to do so just puts us in an arms race with modders. The goal isn't to make the winner the one who can quickly get basic information, but the one who can figure out what's best to do with that information.


Stephen Cheney wrote:
leperkhaun wrote:
Honestly I would like to basically have no info about other players unless im grouped up or in a company.

Obfuscating information is extremely prone to failure.

On one hand, take the script that Nightdrifter has just proposed. This is similar to the "Brawl Index" City of Heroes worked up in the early days of the game: even with no official statements of hard numbers on effects, the players quickly worked everything out (relative to the "Brawl" attack that all players had access to and used as a control). That is, even if we don't tell you exact numbers, it won't take long for players to reverse engineer them.

On the other, we have to send some information to the client. We have to tell your client what to draw. We have to tell you what percentage of your hit points you lost. If I'm sending you details to draw your opponents, it's possible to hack your client so those instructions are translated in a way that can send you warnings (e.g., "I'm drawing a Tier 3 suit of Plate," "I'm animating a Whirlwind attack, use an Interrupt!" etc.). If I'm sending you information about your current status and that of your opponent, even very simplified, you can use a script like Nightdrifter's to work out what's going on.

These things together mean that if we attempt to hide information from the players, it will be in the interests of technically-minded players to try to reveal it through whatever clues we have to provide. In a world where we expect you to use your intuition and player experience to understand what's going on in a fight, what actually happens is that the skilled players are beaten by players running add-ons, and more casual players are at a serious disadvantage to both of them.

Being able to determine after the fight via a parse is no big deal because you have no idea next time you meet that player if any gear has been changed

So instead, we're erring on the side of making as much information available as we can without being overwhelming (and leaving the door open to provide even more info than that if we can figure out a good way to make it optional, especially if modders have already gotten at it and been using it)....

I suspect Stephen (and I may be wrong in this interpretation) that what Leperkhaun is suggesting is he wishes to move away from the situation that you have in eve whereby ship scanners allow you to accurately catalog the entire equipment of a ship or the wow style model of inspect whereby you can see all the equipment and enchants a player has.

The two things both have in common is they are premptive of a fight and you can therefore use them to determine pretty accurately whether you can win or not. This leads to the situation of PVP where you know before the fight even starts who the loser is.

Personally I agree (assuming that my interpretation is correct) with that and would prefer that initiating PVP has a certain amount of risks due to unknowns. By all means I should be able to tell plate from leather and have a rough idea of quality of the item. I shouldn't be able necessarily be able to identify the number of keywords on an item nor what those keywords are prefight.

Apologies to leperkhaun if I have misinterpreted what he was saying

Goblin Squad Member

@stephen

That makes sense to me and I agree that for things like numbers on abilities it should be made public. In fact when I make a choice i should be able have all the numbers so i can figure out if doing Sweeping strike 1x then cleave is more optimal then two broad chops. Having the mechanics of the game laid out is something that i want so that i can make informed choices. However information about other players should be restricted.

What I would like to avoid is what steelwing said. I shouldnt be able to scan someone and go....nope dont attack him because he is a 20 level mage/20 level fighter with 5000000 hp and 1000000 mana. Ohh that guy is a 5th level rogue with 1000 hp and 200 mana, i can get him.

if i pay attention i can see he is in good armor and weapons, but besides that until i get into combat and see the numbers rolling I wont know for sure.

The reason is what steelwing put in his post, it adds an element of danger if I am unable to perfectly parse my enemies. Thats part of the risk if you attack someone you may run into someone whose character is 10 years old with stupid amounts of experience who will be a very hard target.

If i cant see his guild tag, then i have to evaluate...is he part of steelwing's settlement or is he part of some no name settlement?

I full expect players to build databases with who is part of what guild and what level you think they might be, but thats interaction by a player to figure out all of that, and I would suspect that many organizations wont share that info readily.

Also i wont be turning off any information that could possibly give me an advantage, im not going to give myself a handicap other players wont have.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Ah, I get you.

There will probably not be a whole lot of information sent to your client about a target before you're actually in combat, so that's the kind of thing that would be easier to keep secret and know that people with add-ons aren't getting it (with the caveat that there's always the possibility of some kind of networking add-on where when one person fights someone, that person's deduced details are sent to others... seems like a lot of work, but possible).

One exception might be that we might make upgraded (more keywords) equipment fancier looking, so you may be able to tell at a glance the difference between, say, Tier 2 armor with the minimum keywords and a set that's been upgraded. Of course, the target may be wearing armor that's a little beyond his own capabilities because he got a deal on it and expects to grow into it... or he might be a higher level target that's using some cheaper gear (but might have better stuff in the miscellaneous slots that you don't immediately notice).

It's still unclear how much we'll show you on inspection. I'd like to hear what others would like to be able to see about someone before a fight.

We probably will wind up giving you a way to see someone's Company/Settlement/Kingdom. There are a couple of reasons for that:

  • When you're hostile to someone, we expect to give you the ability to find out why, either right on the name or via inspection (depending on how it fits on the UI). So if you look at someone, you might see that he's in a Settlement you're at war with, but another guy you might see as just in a rival Faction. We need to show you what the hostility is for so you can decide whether you actually care (likely someone you're at war with will be a higher priority fight than someone in a rival faction). We may wind up showing you a bunch of social stuff just so it's consistent when you look at someone and see which of the target's organizations are red and which ones aren't.
  • The ability to associate someone's behavior with his Company or Settlement is important to some players, whether he's actually attacking you or just being a jerk hanging around (or, conversely, maybe you want the opportunity to notice that members of group X are polite and friendly). And organizational tags also help narrow down the limitations of player visuals and your own monkeysphere (that is, in the real world, within a sample size of a few thousand you can visually and mentally associate people with the groups they represent if you run into them enough, but in a virtual world few players look unique enough to really stick in your mind and the game is just a small portion of your relationship landscape). Most players are not going to be able to remember "I think [player X] is a member of [group Y]" for many players, even though a character immersed in that world would be able to better formulate that info.

But my opinion on that front is probably less strong than Tork's, so maybe people should list their pros and cons and I'll report back to him on Monday :) .

Goblin Squad Member

I would imagine that you aren't able to see someones name right off the bat, but someones guild (or settlement, etc.) would be visible at a glance. Due to them searing some sort of signet or some such.

This was discussed at length around the time of the kickstarter (can't remember which one..) and I think the general consensus was similar to this.

edit: and of course i get ninja'd by Stephen.... this is why i usually just lurk.....


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I would like to see

1) Armour appearance (however I would like armour to come in at least two types per tier Plain and fancy where fancey T1 can be mistaken for plain t2 and vice versa). This allows a certain amount of deception both ways. Appearing weaker by wearing plain or stronger by wearing fancy

2) no ability to see tier or key words what so ever

3) I am torn both ways on seeing the settlement. kingdom and faction thing. On the one hand you dont want people to be able to walk up and attack you because they are the opposition...on the other unless you recognise them or they are wearing an emblem how would you know.

Given the paucity of mmo character designs however and I have no reason to believe PfO will be different to the (select 1 of x hair cuts, 1 of y noses) creator then it is not possible to recognise players by individuality so seeing a name and association I am currently cautiously in favor of

Goblin Squad Member

I've laid it out before, some will recall, that I'd prefer that we didn't even see anyone's name until we have met or been introduced. I'd rather a potential predator had no idea who and what he was tangling with when he decides he wants to dance. I'd rather a new player not be intimidated just by looking at the numbers or title around my name, or the icons.

Part of what used to make society courteous was the reality that it is dangerous to be rude to a stranger. That if an unknown man walked up your best bet was to be respectful and hospitable. In ancient Greece the hospitality rules were sacred, because it might just be Zeus breaking bread with you.

With the powers that walk Golarion, that might not be a bad paradigm.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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I like the ideas associated with being able to see all of another character's accessories, but I think the practical effect will be that people with the third-party programs see a color-coded list of what everybody in render range is wearing on their second monitor, while everyone else squints to try to see if the trim on the boots of the target 100 yards out is fur (boots of carrying) or leather (boots of ass-kicking).

Making all of the accessories available in most of the styles seems to be a good compromise- players don't get forced into fashion choices by stats, and users of third-party programs only know the cosmetic choice made.

Settlement and company name I think should be knowable by everyone, but display options should be customizable: Floaty organization names take up visual attention as they demand to be read. As a step down from floaty names, an icon which indicates status (yours, allied, friendly, neutral, wary, hostile) could be an option. An icon that indicates which group someone is seems impossible; there are simply not enough differentiable icons small enough to be unobtrusive to represent every settlement, much less company.

Getting lots of information about WHY a PvP flag exists is probably a good idea. What crimes have been committed within the reference period, for example.


Being wrote:

I've laid it out before, some will recall, that I'd prefer that we didn't even see anyone's name until we have met or been introduced. I'd rather a potential predator had no idea who and what he was tangling with when he decides he wants to dance. I'd rather a new player not be intimidated just by looking at the numbers or title around my name, or the icons.

Part of what used to make society courteous was the reality that it is dangerous to be rude to a stranger. That if an unknown man walked up your best bet was to be respectful and hospitable. In ancient Greece the hospitality rules were sacred, because it might just be Zeus breaking bread with you.

With the powers that walk Golarion, that might not be a bad paradigm.

While I tend to agree Being I fear many would consider not knowing whether they are attacking someone from a powerful kingdom or a down at heel POI as a bad thing. Personally I have no issue with your preference and would gladly run with it. However that would also in my belief mean hiding Red/blue status and faction affiliation. Would you be happy with that as well?


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DeciusBrutus wrote:

I like the ideas associated with being able to see all of another character's accessories, but I think the practical effect will be that people with the third-party programs see a color-coded list of what everybody in render range is wearing on their second monitor, while everyone else squints to try to see if the trim on the boots of the target 100 yards out is fur (boots of carrying) or leather (boots of ass-kicking).

Making all of the accessories available in most of the styles seems to be a good compromise- players don't get forced into fashion choices by stats, and users of third-party programs only know the cosmetic choice made.

Settlement and company name I think should be knowable by everyone, but display options should be customizable: Floaty organization names take up visual attention as they demand to be read. As a step down from floaty names, an icon which indicates status (yours, allied, friendly, neutral, wary, hostile) could be an option. An icon that indicates which group someone is seems impossible; there are simply not enough differentiable icons small enough to be unobtrusive to represent every settlement, much less company.

Getting lots of information about WHY a PvP flag exists is probably a good idea. What crimes have been committed within the reference period, for example.

The easy way around that of course is to have a number of styles for T1 boots, T2 boots and T3 boots for each armour type. The keywords they are constructed with don't actually change the appearance. Therefore you cannot tell T2 boots of druid kicking and tree felling from t2 boots of running and hiding

Goblin Squad Member

The predominant opinion on these boards was to have the information visible. I can see their points, but retain my preference when asked for it ;)


Being wrote:
The predominant opinion on these boards was to have the information visible. I can see their points, but retain my preference when asked for it ;)

There is nothing wrong with opposing preferences. We can all put our viewpoints forward as to why we believe our preference is better

Goblin Squad Member

alrighty.

Yeah the armor thing to me is fine. Its a visual indicator that the player needs to be able to know. On one hand it might serve to deter me...hmm that guy has a holy avenger and T3 armor...better not mess with him. On the other hand i could go...hmmm he has a holy avenger and T3 armor, you cant thread all of it so if i kill him i can keep some of it.

It gives you a general indication of the level of equipment he has on him, in general what role/type of skills to expect him to use, but doesnt provide me with any hard info. So im at risk when attacking him, which i think is the best way to go. Picking a fight SHOULD be a risk. I agree with steelwing that you shouldnt be able to tell keywords, unless its say an actual flaming sword in which case yeah you know its flaming but you wouldnt know if it has the bleed and hamstring keywords.

As for inspections I would prefer that inspections only show equipment and leave the amount of xp and skills trained to be a mystery.

As to the company/settlement/kingdom info it makes sense why you would want them to be visible. It makes it easy to know people's general affiliations so you can be wary of them and so that a company/settlement/kingdom can better enforce standards. If you get attacked by a Paladin Alliance and you know that they have a rule where their members are not suppose to attack unflagged people, then you know who to talk to, possibly even be compensated.

That information i dont mind, i would prefer to not have it shown, but i dont think its as important as not showing things like xp earned, level, hp, mana....etc.

TL;DR When i see someone i want to only see what kind of armor they are wearing ,their name, and their active flags. no other indications of skill level or company/settlement/kingdom affiliation should be given.

Goblin Squad Member

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Note to self: stat out boots of druid kicking and tree felling for my TT games...

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Weapons, armor, and shield all seem like they should be readily identifiable from a distance.

Adding a dimension: suitably enchanted weapons and armor might be made to have one fewer keyword in exchange for looking like something a tier higher or lower...


DeciusBrutus wrote:

Weapons, armor, and shield all seem like they should be readily identifiable from a distance.

Adding a dimension: suitably enchanted weapons and armor might be made to have one fewer keyword in exchange for looking like something a tier higher or lower...

yup armour type should be detectable as well as general tier...give or take...what are your thoughts on keywords though

should you be able to tell a sword of piercing from a sword of blunt hacking (especially while it is in a scabbard). This is why I argue you can get a tier indication but not a keyword

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Weapons, armor, and shield all seem like they should be readily identifiable from a distance.

Adding a dimension: suitably enchanted weapons and armor might be made to have one fewer keyword in exchange for looking like something a tier higher or lower...

I like that idea.

Something where its decently costly to do so, not in material costs, but in having to sacrifice a good number of keywords so that its not as effective as other things in its tier but still better than the below one.

I love glamored armor, this needs to be a thing!

for keywords I dont think you should get an indication unless its something obvious. in pathfinder somethings like flaming, icy, thundering, and such are readily visual and i think that you should be able to see things like that, if nothing else it makes the weapons look cool. However other keywords you shouldnt know. Now i do like the idea that the better your weapon is (tier and amount of keywords) that you could put a visual aura on it just for looks, but that the aura would be optional.

Goblin Squad Member

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Not that it directly applies here, but only "The Suckiest" DMs in my TT experience allowed anyone full knowledge of an item at a casual glance.

It kills the mystery.

Goblin Squad Member

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see bringslite thats not true, thats just the setup for giving the entire team cursed items and have them wear them all.


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I plan of fighting with a pair of teaspoons of oversugaring...not a quick kill I grant you but give it 40 years or so and the diabetes or obesity will kick in. Naturally this means my character will suddenly get a huge xp boost from all those kills when he is around 90 but hey you can't have everything

Goblin Squad Member

You are both wicked.

Edit: ;)

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Here is a link to a discussion on identity etc.
Assassin Identity Concern
also
Non-Unique Names, Anonymity, and Disguises

These has a lot of good information and opinions in it.

Goblin Squad Member

Did anyone else have their posts disappear (like magic) on this thread? Did the board go down and drop a number of postings?

Goblin Squad Member

Wexel Daventry wrote:
Did anyone else have their posts disappear (like magic) on this thread? Did the board go down and drop a number of postings?

Yes there appears to have been a rollback to prior to yesterday on the forums

Goblin Squad Member

Ok, figures it would be on the day I did most of my posting. Thanks Bludd!

Goblin Squad Member

there was a major power outage where the servers where that lasted for quite a while.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
It's still unclear how much we'll show you on inspection. I'd like to hear what others would like to be able to see about someone before a fight

1) Does having visual information gradients to determine skill level or equipment tier increase animation artwork load?

2) Can level of an opponent/equipment be determined during the execution of skills/fighting/special maneuvers through an observation skill (e.g., perception)?
3) Can level of an opponent/equipment be obfuscated during the execution of skills/fighting/special maneuvers through an deception skill (e.g., bluff)?
4) Presumably the use of disguise would be telling the client to render the disguise/illusion rather than the real character image. In that case only when perception is successful would the client receive the correct image to render. Would this be true for unidentified equipment? For example, would successful use of perception would tell the client to render a sufficiently detailed image that would allow for identification of tier/ability/magic? That would imply that discernment of equipment tier would have to be an active use of a skill rather than one that was always on.
5) Opinion of things that should be easily determined with normal visual examination (always on) inside of a specific visual distance: race, gender, relative build (slender, medium, stocky, muscled), hair and skin color, color of equipment, intentionally distinctive markings (badges, decoration, etc.).
6) Opinion of things that should only be determined through an active skill (perception, detect magic, etc): magic vs. non-magic, keyword enhancements, condition (broken rather than damaged, repaired), skill level of character.

Goblin Squad Member

leperkhaun wrote:
there was a major power outage where the servers where that lasted for quite a while.

A power outage? I've been keeping an eye on my accounts thinking it may have been something more sinister.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm for a system where you only know what you can determine by sight. This means that unless you know the character you would not even see their name or if they were hostile or a friend until there was meaningful interaction or possibly some sort of inspection to gather some further clues. If you do know them, have interacted before or they are part of your settlement or allies then you would get more information. Leaves quite a bit of mystery and doesn't tell you much on if you should or shouldn't tangle with the character before you make your decisions. Add to this more detail if you SAD and interact with them or come into close contact to inspect one another. Also feels more like Pathfinder to me as you never know who might be sitting at the bar across the room and only get what you can see. I think it would be fun.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Wexel Daventry wrote:
I'm for a system where you only know what you can determine by sight.

This needlessly punishes those with poor vision but who can otherwise read.

Goblin Squad Member

Not comfortbale with waht i´m reading here often.
Seems this game will need such an amount of metagame knowledge that does not go with the normal Pathfinder game, that i´m already unsure if i will play it for long.

One thing is sure: being pawned by higher level chars every so often and loosing a lot of progress and stuff then is surely no fun.
Somehow i also missed where this whole "we need PvP only" thing started and became that big.

Then, running into someone else you might be so superior that there is no chance, or only after uniting with 20 others, is also kind of meh.
And identifying equipment on sight? How sould that work? You have to know all the equipment and recognize it and it´s hidden superpowers? WTF?

Goblin Squad Member

Drakhan Valane wrote:
Wexel Daventry wrote:
I'm for a system where you only know what you can determine by sight.
This needlessly punishes those with poor vision but who can otherwise read.

Ha, I hadn't thought of that but it does make sense. So give a little information but not enough to make a full assessment and keep some mystery.

Goblin Squad Member

Hayato Ken wrote:

Not comfortbale with waht i´m reading here often.

Seems this game will need such an amount of metagame knowledge that does not go with the normal Pathfinder game, that i´m already unsure if i will play it for long.

One thing is sure: being pawned by higher level chars every so often and loosing a lot of progress and stuff then is surely no fun.
Somehow i also missed where this whole "we need PvP only" thing started and became that big.

Then, running into someone else you might be so superior that there is no chance, or only after uniting with 20 others, is also kind of meh.
And identifying equipment on sight? How sould that work? You have to know all the equipment and recognize it and it´s hidden superpowers? WTF?

Well for me the thing is that metagame knowledge is always there, there is no way around it. In a fight if i know the affects of various abilities and see you use them i can have an advantage because i can come up with a way to counter you.

Getting killed in PfO will happen. When you die, unless you stick to the lower quality items you will probably lose items and have to replace them. In a game like this its best to not get attached to items and to only use what you are comfortable and able to replace. Think of items more as consumables than things that define your character. The other thing is that your character wont be losing xp or skills they gained, just equipment, but remember you can thread your equipment so the really good stuff stays with you.

As to the pvp thing. In a sandbox about territory control pvp is a major theme and a large part of the game. I think is someone is looking at PfO and expecting something like a pve server with designated pvp zones then this game might not be for them. There will be pve, but it wont be like wow where thats the focus.

Well honestly if someone is better than you get a group and take them out, i dont see the issue with that. Some people will be around longer and have better stats, skills, and equipment. Also remember that GW will have a flater power curve than some other games.

As to Iding equipment on sight. I dont see the issue, but in general yes, you would have to know what some types of equipment would look like. in general you would need to know what T1,t2, t3 weapons and armor looks like, but here is the thing that wont tell you what that armor/weapon does, only the general quality level of it.

honestly there is not a single MMO iv played where players have not been able to look at some character and know what they are wearing, and in games like WoW people can tell you all the stats of the gear and make really good guesses at the gear you cant see.

Goblin Squad Member

Hayato Ken wrote:
Somehow i also missed where this whole "we need PvP only" thing started and became that big.

The idea for me was that if I am going to seriously RP with a thousand or ten thousand other people, I know some one of them, or many of them, will make me wish I could express myself in a more emphatic way than text chat.

Where is the RP if you cannot attack the villain?

In a game where that villain is another player it isn't going to be good enough without PvP.

So if you accept that then what all is implicit in the proposition? Ultimately were talking about war. So that whole system has to be detailed out because we won't be sitting down at table with a GM there to moderate our excesses, we will have a world that works, that provides for the rules in the way it is built and how things work.

And the system is necessarily complicated. Almost everyone interested in PFO has a disparate opinion. So yes, the predominant topic of conversation is about PvP. But that does not mean all of the game is PvP. All of the game includes social intraction of which PvP is only one type.

It is merely the most controversial.

Goblin Squad Member

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Wexel Daventry wrote:
Drakhan Valane wrote:
Wexel Daventry wrote:
I'm for a system where you only know what you can determine by sight.
This needlessly punishes those with poor vision but who can otherwise read.
Ha, I hadn't thought of that but it does make sense. So give a little information but not enough to make a full assessment and keep some mystery.

Realize also that, if you make it so things can be identified by sight but no UI function is given to inform you about their gear, someone will make a 3rd party UI mod which will convert the visual data into a UI function. For example, if the game tells you to render the adamantine breastplate model with a very subtle unholy particle effect, the person with this 3rd party UI would immediately notice the unholy effect on the breastplate and have stats for what the equipment gives to its wearer, whereas the person using only the game's given UI may not even know what type of armor the model represents, much less the specific stats.

It's one of those situations where GW has said, if the client is going to get information that can be hacked to supply unintended data, they would rather the UI supply that data itself so that everyone receives the information instead of only people using mods.

Goblin Squad Member

Call me old fashioned but I would prefer a player controlled ui

/show 1

I see the name of the player in a color that tells me don't kill him he is on your side, or another color careful he is not your friend so skip the RP.

/show 2 name, CC
/show 3 name, CC, settlement
/show 4 name, CC, settlement, kingdom

I don't actually want to see all of that, I find it annoying, but I should have the option for myself. Maybe skip the CC if member of a settlement? If not a member of a settlement show the CC with the lowest REP by default?

Yes I know some people will turn it all on so they can see incoming bodies sooner but allowing people to hide their identity without some costly learned skill, or a spell does not work for me..

As to armor and weapons some should be obviously to anyone, and some details should only be revealed to players who have invested in perception. If their perception skill is low it simply is not rendered so no worries about third party addons.

Separate point if players have little idea of the level of any other player how can a player take hits to rep for killing a lower skill, level player? Aside from location? Devils advocate question. I don't want to see new bees getting ganked, or people using the GUI as an excuse.

Goblin Squad Member

We know one thing for sure, or at least the devs have said so, we will be able to readily see another character's Reputation.

Other than that, I'm ok with having to be more proactive in finding out more information. I would certainly, if able to, toggle off as much information about my characters as I had an option to.

We are not the UnNamed Company, if we have a floating sign above our heads that says "UnNamed Company".

Goblin Squad Member

I am still hoping for SOME mystery as it adds another layer to how you will interact with another player. First, do I know them? Next, if I don't and can't tell much, what can I tell? Dressed like a bandit, outlaw, guard, fighter, cleric etc? With others? What CC? What weapon? Hostile, neutral or friendly? There are so many opportunities for meaningful interaction just at this level that I would feel it is just wasted to /show 4 name, CC, Settlement, Kingdom, Rep, Align, Hostility and so forth without any meaningful interaction. It would make it a lot simpler to just give the option of attack or not but where's the fun in only 2 options?

Goblin Squad Member

Rep, criminal ect would show in any case. Perhaps a /show 0 option?

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