Vali Nepjarson's page

Back when I was (I think I said 30% at some point) sure it was going to be Iomedae, one of the big things that I felt was important with such a story was that it had to be done in a way that let Iomedae keep a certain amount of agency and respect for who she is.

I feel the same with Gorum, even though I'm not as interested in him as a character.

I personally wouldn't want to see him assassinated in the night. Even if he is going to be hunted down and killed specifically, I hope that it isn't via a god-killing blade to the back. I hope he is given the opportunity to go out the way he would prefer, in the most glorious battle he's ever had, facing down against either someone who can absolutely match him, blow for blow, or even possibly multiple foes who all should be his equal but who he is able to match because this is his day and his fight and he's not going out so easily.

Whether that is some self-sacrifice during a greater threat, or whether it's a gauntlet thrown down that he is excited and eager to pick up, it doesn't matter. I want to see the Our Lord in Iron prove his name as he dies.

Oh, thank the stars. I have always and continue to believe that the God who is going to die is going to be Iomedae, but I am far from certain and the only two gods I would be genuinely heartbroken over dying would have been Desna and Cayden Cailean.

With both of them safe, I can rest easy and wait with excitement and not trepidation.

I feel like, with the removal of the alignment system, the various friends and celestials are now best differentiated by the paths through which they uphold and represent good and evil, holy and unholy.

Angels are goodness through service. Sometimes service towards good gods, sometimes service towards innocent life or holy order.

Azatas are goodness through joy and self-expression. Freedom and connection.

Archons are primordial goodness. Directly born of holy power and untainted by humanoid ideas and norms.

Theoretically Agathions would be something like, goodness through nature and gentleness. Stewards of the sanctity of life itself.

As for fiends

Devils are wickedness through domination. They are the counterparts of Angels as they seek to chain others in service of them.

Demons are wickedness through hedonism. Incapable of empathy or restraint, they are the counterparts of Azatas.

Qlippoths are primordial wickedness. Their evil impossible to understand or empathize with, and their counterparts are obviously Archons.

Daemons are wickedness through malice. They appose life and hope in all it's forms, and their counterparts would be Agathions.

It's not quite as wrapped up in neat little boxes like the alignments used to be before, but it helps to conceptualize what their purpose is to the greater Holy and Unholy causes.

This is hilarious to me, because a couple of friends and myself literally just spent a few hours talking about what we would be if we were gods in Golarion, what our teachings would be, what our Edicts and Anathamas would be, and all that stuff. Then I jump on to the forums and immediately find this.

I think a good number of people kind of missed the point though and wrote up a god that they thought would be cool, rather than who they would be as a god. Which is awesome too! Don't get me wrong. But unless you are admitting that you, yourself are evil aligned, the "God that is You" should most certainly not be.

Vali Nepjarson, The Laughter in the Snowfall

Once a young adventurer who desired nothing more than to travel to far off lands and find things that would fill him with a sense of awe and wonder, now a god and quite unexpectedly so. With laughter like chimes of ice, he brings comfort, happiness, and knowledge of strange things to those who follow his path. He makes his domain in the coldest regions in all the planes, as the intense cold is the only thing which grounds him and slows down his mind enough for him to focus on his own thoughts. He delights in sharing incredible things with his clerics and paladins, rarely realizing that the most incredible thing he can share is himself. He has an intense love and minor obsession with Dinosaurs, for no other reason than because "they're amazing".

Areas of Concern Soft Cold, Occult Knowledge, Adventure, and Dinosaurs
Edicts Travel the world in search of things that fill you with awe, seek to understand others especially when you are opposed to them, find comfort and calm in the frozen cold
Anathamas Destroy amazing monuments or icons of foreign cultures, deceive others for personal gain, pass up the opportunity to ride a dinosaur, willingly eat green peppers or arugula

Realm Baile Reoite [The Maelstrom]
Temples glaciers, standing stones, places where the road turns
Worshippers hikers, adventurers, bed and breakfast owners
Sacred Animal triceratops
Sacred Colors blue, silver, and white

Devotee Benefits

Divine Ability Charisma or Dexterity
Divine Font Heal
Divine Skill Occultism*
Divine Sanctification must chose Holy
Domains cold, introspection, knowledge, travel
Alternate DomainsSaurian (Not yet in PF2), Trickery
Spells 1st: purifying icicle, 4th: dinosaur form, 5th: howling blizzard, 10th: fabricate truth
Favored WeaponRapier or Staff (Sideword or Shillelagh)

*Some followers of Vali find that they are gifted divine skill in Deception instead of Occultism, and these often find they have a more specific role that Vali has for them*

Divine Intercessions

Vali imparts his joy and laughter upon those who bring comfort and warmth to those who are out alone in the bitter cold, as well as those who seek to share the wonder of the world with others and protect it from those who would harm it.

Minor Boon: You are gifted with a whisper of secrets that Vali has accumulated throughout the eons. When you roll a knowledge check on a topic that you are merely curious about, and you roll a Failure, you get a Critical Success instead.
Moderate Boon: Rather than being bitter and biting, the cold is always comforting to you. You are immune to environmental cold temperature effects up to Extreme Cold, and reduce the damage taken by Incredible Cold to that of Severe Cold. Also while you are in any cold temperature below mild cold, you have a +1 status bonus to attack rolls and skill checks
Major Boon: Dinosaurs see you as friend and kin and may appear to protect you from a particularly dangerous threat. If threat of death is imminent Vali may send a Dinosaur to your aid, even appearing in places where it would be impossible or ridiculous for such a creature to be. Although Vali may send any Dinosaur of his choosing, usually they are less than 2 levels lower than the highest level threat you are facing.

Minor Curse: Whenever you wake up after a long sleep, you find some part of your body affected by something like frostbite, often a toe or ear.
Moderate Curse: Your mind is forced to process too quickly for you to ever focus on one thing. Whenever you attempt an action with the Concentrate trait, you must attempt a DC 7 flat check or the action fails
Major Curse: Vali does not allow you to feel the wonder and awe of the world, and all good emotions feel deadened and hollow. You cannot benefit from any positive effects of any spell or ability that has the Emotion or Mental trait.

I played fast and loose with some of the unspoken rules of deities here, such as giving Clerics of Vali 4 spells, one of which is a 10th rank spell, or how some followers are given a different skill, but all of these are important to Vali's lore.

Vali hates deception and subterfuge, but is incredibly skilled at it. He understands the real meaning behind the words of others innately, regardless of how well they try to hide it. Because of that, he only gives that kind of skill to followers that he feels are trustworthy to use that kind of skill. He doesn't grant shady Rogues who worship him divine skill in deception. He grants it to Paladins who are irrevocably good and whom he knows will use that skill with responsibility.

The same is true of him granting the spell Fabricated Truth. That kind of power is one that fundamentally he feels should never be used. But he also understands that sometimes, never happens. And so if you have gone all the way on his path and he trusts you absolutely, he may grant you the ability to use such a spell. With the caveat that the misuse of the spell is one of the only ways he would ever afflict someone with his Major Curse.

Vali can come across as naïve and childish, but he understands the fears and insecurities of the gods better often than they know themselves. And he knows that there is evil in the world, and so insists that if you follow his path, then you must stand between that evil and the wonderful, amazing things this world has to offer, as well as the innocents who inhabit it.

"Good is easy, as long as you aren't blind to what it actually is. Nice is simple, and anyone can be nice for their own reasons. But to be kind is hard, and frustrating, and all the more important for it. To be kind is to treat people better than they deserve. It doesn't mean don't bring your sword to bear against an evildoer and strike them down if necessary, but it does mean to first seek to help them and seek understanding of what made them walk the path of evil in the first place."

"The Cold rakes at you because you're angry at it. And when you're angry it becomes all you can focus on and it feels so much worse than it actually is. But if you step outside, take a deep breath, and let it be just what it is, you'll find it can be calming, and even comfortable."

"Why Dinosaurs? You ever see a Titanosaurus walk out of the forest and shake the world with it's sheer mass? They're amazing, that's why. Yes, I realize I'm an actual god, shut up. Want a Microraptor Familiar?"

Vali Nepjarson wrote:

I am now significantly more comfortable in my guess that Iomedae is the Deity who will be killed.

While not every god would have or would need a successor, this "What If" story shows that it is important to note that some positions need to be filled. Hell needs a dictator, so if Asmodeus was going to be killed then Ihys would be the God who would take his place and he would be the God joining the Core 20.

Which to me, shows that it is important to consider that different gods would be chosen to replace different other gods.

It could never have been Pharasma, because someone would have needed to take the reigns and keep the flow of souls going, and since we know Arazni is the one joining the Core 20, I doubt they would place her in that position.

As such, Iomedae makes the most sense, because she is the champion of Aroden, risen to take his mantle. And that is the position that makes the most sense for Arazni to rise up and take over for.

If any of the other Deities died, we would have a thematic and symbolic hole in the roles filled by the Core 20, AND two champions of Aroden taking up a lot of divine real estate.

For the record, when I say "significantly more comfortable" what I mean is my certainty has gone up from 20% to 30%, and I could absolutely be wrong, but it makes the most sense to me.

Luis already confirmed that Arazni isn't inheriting anything from the deity that dies.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that Arazni will take on Iomedae's portoflio or her "job" in the cosmos.

What I'm saying is that some gods are safe, theoretically, because if they were to die, someone would need to do that and we know that isn't going to be happening. Asmodeus, Pharasma, and Rovagug are the most obvious, but you can potentially make an argument for deities like Desna, Sarenrae, and Lamashtu as well (although I don't think we know if their death would cause the end of the things they empower, so those ones could still be in danger).

And then as a second point, while we know Arazni is not taking over the cosmic deific role of the Core 20 deity who dies, there is still going to be a narrative role that we are going to lose from that deity, and another narrative role that Arazni will bring in to the story.

So for example, I highly doubt Torag or Calistria are going to die, because they are the Dwarven and Elven representations in the Core 20. Cayden Cailean is probably safe because he brings something entirely unique to the Core 20 that frankly I don't know if anyone could replace.

Iomedae is the inheritor of Aroden, and the Paladin representation within the Core 20. At least one of those roles is one that Arazni is perfectly capable of filling. And if, in the course of the story, she manages to find forgiveness in her heart for Aroden, for Humanity, and for herself, she could easily fill the second narrative roll as well.

I am now significantly more comfortable in my guess that Iomedae is the Deity who will be killed.

While not every god would have or would need a successor, this "What If" story shows that it is important to note that some positions need to be filled. Hell needs a dictator, so if Asmodeus was going to be killed then Ihys would be the God who would take his place and he would be the God joining the Core 20.

Which to me, shows that it is important to consider that different gods would be chosen to replace different other gods.

It could never have been Pharasma, because someone would have needed to take the reigns and keep the flow of souls going, and since we know Arazni is the one joining the Core 20, I doubt they would place her in that position.

As such, Iomedae makes the most sense, because she is the champion of Aroden, risen to take his mantle. And that is the position that makes the most sense for Arazni to rise up and take over for.

If any of the other Deities died, we would have a thematic and symbolic hole in the roles filled by the Core 20, AND two champions of Aroden taking up a lot of divine real estate.

For the record, when I say "significantly more comfortable" what I mean is my certainty has gone up from 20% to 30%, and I could absolutely be wrong, but it makes the most sense to me.

Kinda specific, but I really, really want a Kanabo/Tetsubo weapon stat block. I have a character who uses one, and yeah I can easily just have them use a greatclub and call it a day, but there's something that doesn't tickle the joy button in my brain to not be able to use a "technically correct" stat block.

I also second the Oni-based Nephilim stuff. I would even be okay with just a straight up Oni ancestry, but that's less necessary per say. I've been using an Orc with the Nephilim stuff that used to be Tiefling, and that's cool, but again it would be great to have specific Oni stuff.

So I am honestly loving a lot of this class right now. A few balancing tweaks (Str builds shouldn't be inherently worse than Dex builds) and they'll be fantastic. My personal biggest concern with it though is one that I have not seen brought up yet, and that is that if I am creating an Exemplar, I need a lot more options for gaining a title for the type of hero they could be.

Looking at the Dominion Epithets especially, as cool as the titles are, those feel like titles that should be entirely unique to each Exemplar. Born of the Bones of the Earth is super cool, but what if my Exemplar's legend grew when he reaches into the body of a raging fire elemental to wrench it's core out? Then I'm going to want my title to be something like "Arm Forged in Fire" or something like that.

We have a lightning Epithet. No reason we couldn't allow fire or cold damage.

Personally, I think that the Root Epithets are fine as is, since they're just one-word adjectives for a single heroic trait, and even the Sovereignty Epithets are probably okay since they more describe the overall archetype of hero you were, but for the Dominion Epithet, I think we should be able to write our own in a sense.

From a mechanical sense, it would give the option of a few different Immanence and Transcendence abilities that are paired together that you can pick, and also lets you choose a damage type that you can replace spirit damage with (with maybe some small incentive to pick Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing, since those would inherently be less desirable when they are choices on their own. Then you pick an Epithet that goes with that ability, while providing a list of options but also the encouragement to write your own.

My hero of the frozen north might picks something like "He Who Comes on Frozen Winds".

While I do tend to come down on the side that the Witch should probably have been Occult, I will say that I don't think that Occult is nearly so much spooky and creepy that a lot of people I've seen make it out to be.

I get why people make this assumption, because the name Occult evokes the ideas of the strange, eldritch, and unfathomable. It's name includes the word "cult".

But when we look at all the spells that are unique to the Occult spell list, that doesn't seem to be the primary idea being represented.

We have some, sure. Paranoia, Ill Omen, Possession, Hypnopompic Terrors, Aberrant Form maybe Phantom Pain if you want to consider that creepy. Yes, it has more of those than other lists, but that's because it's the mental list and fear and horror are a part of the purview of "mental".

The vast majority of the spells are things like, Hypercognition, Retrocognition, Visions of Danger, Synesthesia, Cutting Insult, Liberating Word, Soothe, Imprint Message, Object Reading, Mind Link.

All very, very Bardy spells. As far as things like curses go, which are really the things that most people associate as being "witchy", yes the Occult list has the majority of them, but so does the Arcane list, and Primal has quite a few as well.

To that end, I think if we accept that Occult has a wider meaning that just "secret, eldritch, and unfathomable" and expand it to emotion and lore based magic, (which can include creepy, horror elements but is not limited to that), then Bard being Occult makes total sense.

The reason I personally prefer the Witch as being part of the Occult list is because I think that those types of spells that effect the mind and soul, Synesthesia, Mind Link, ect, are all important to the principal of what a Witch is. Even on a Winter Witch, most of the spells I'd want would be from the Occult list. Primal has way more dead spells that I would have no need of, including every other elemental spell like Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

I'd much rather the Witch get Occult, as well as a set of other spells given by the Patron. The Winter Patron, in this way, would allow you access to the Occult list as well as a set of Cold elemental spells like the Sorcerer Bloodlines do, or maybe just "Occult and any spell with the Cold Tag".

My Winter Witch has no reason whatsoever to take Flammable Fumes or Control Water, but I would absolutely want him to take Mind Probe or Rip the Spirit.

I believe that all ancestries should have their names changed to reflect their size relative to an arbitrary "whole".

Dwarves = Broadlings

Elves = Thinlings

Humans = Dire Halflings

Orcs = One and a Halflings

Gnomes = Thirdlings

Goblins = Slightly more than a Thirdlings

And then any mixed heritage you just do the math.

Orc/Halfling? 1.5 x 0.5 = Three-Quartersling

Human/Halfling = Half-Dire Half-Ling

Gnome/Dwarf? Height 1 Base 2 x .333 = H1/3 by Base 2/3rds-ling.

It's obviously the most intuitive way to call everyone.

While I absolutely, 100% get why this decision was made, it is also the only thing in the presentation today that disappoints me.

Not even from a mechanical perspective, since that's not that big of a deal (although I do have one issue with it that I'll get to later), but from a flavor perspective.

It makes it feel like Proteans and Aeons are less cosmically potent than Angels and Demons. Celestials and Fiends have these fancy, pretty tags that show how they're fundamentally holy or Unholy beings? A status that Champions and Clerics endeavor to be more like by Sanctifying or Unsanctifying themselves? Meanwhile Monitors get absolutely nothing equivalent? Kind of underwhelming to be honest.

Plus, it just feels like it limits design space. Which admittedly isn't that much of a problem except that it's concepts that people have been asking for for a while now. Champions of Law and Chaos. You're making I much harder to add those things in the future, without a way to make your Champions "Ordered" or "Entropic"

And I get that they're saying that their data shows players don't interact with Law and Chaos except as an extension of Good and Evil, but how can they when there are essentially no options in the game for meaningfully doing so and when the few ways to do so were massively disincentivized, since it was way harder to predict if Lawful or Chaotic damage would do anything?

I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, I really do love 99% of what's been revealed for the Remaster, but this hurts a lot.

I am going to be honest, I don't prefer Berserker, because frankly that word is almost as loaded with historical weirdness as "Barbarian". And in a way that entrenches the class in things that I would rather see opened up.

I love Rage as a class mechanic, but I dislike Rage as a locked in flavor for that class mechanic. I would rather see done away with and replaced with something like "Battle Trance". A state where your mind focuses in on pure battle at the expense of other things. Rage may be one of the things that sends a character into a Battle Trance, but so may extreme discipline, meditation, letting the spirits of your ancestors/a dragon/a giant take over for you, or any of a variety of other things.

I think this idea as a whole would make the class more interesting, and would allow for more varied types of Barbarians. And I think it would make the term Barbarian less objectionable as it would decouple the idea of native people with mindless rage.

Berserker feels like it would reinforce the idea of the class as a rager in the collective consciousness rather than allow it more room to breath.

OK let's start speculating!

One thing I noticed looking at the Player Core page is that other than the Bard, there are no spontaneous caster classes.

The classes that are there are: bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, witch, and wizard!

While Player Core 2 got: alchemist, barbarian, champion, investigator, monk, oracle, sorcerer, and swashbuckler.

It makes me wonder now that. Maybe, just maybe, isn't the designers also considering reworking the prepared and spontaneous spellcasters? Like, for example, ending Vancian Spellcasting? This would justify a little why the spontaneous spellcasters are thrown to the 2nd book (to be better worked on, as it should be with the Champion if the vancian spellcasting really will be gone once this would make the casters mechanics more closer and will require some more work to make then more unique).

I think it's a lot more likely that Sorcerer (and Barbarian) are pushed to the Player Core 2 because they have Dragon subclasses, and they'd want to leave those until after Monster Core, since it'll be easier to understand how the new Dragon classifications work with those sorts of subclasses.

So just to check because I'm now confused of what people are talking bout. From what I understood, they are basically doing erratad changed version of classes and core options, but its not like they are changing rules or skill math or monster math?

So like post remaster and pre remaster versions are still working on same rules and same math and this is more of glorified errata with more changes than normal errata?

That is correct. Some of the rule changes are somewhat larger than a typical errata, but nothing that changes the game itself.

Alignment is probably the biggest core change, but even then it seems less like it's actually going away and more that it's becoming a thing one ops into.

Vali Nepjarson wrote:

Revisions to the Witch is the best news I've heard all year, but at the same time, I really, REALLY hope we don't lose Ganzi. I love them so, so much!

Even if something isn't reprinted, we aren't losing it- heritages and ancestries are presumably still working the same way.

I didn't elaborate very well on that. Since Ganzi currently don't have a lot of (really any) support since they were first introduced in the Lost Omens: Ancestry Guide, I have been patiently waiting for an expansion for them that gives more of the classic PF1 abilities, and new ones beyond that. I worry that if all the "aligned" heritages are grouped under just Nephilim, Paizo will not feel the need to go back and address Ganzi specifically.

It could on the other hand mean any source going forward that includes Nephilim content will be able to have Ganzi specific feats that wouldn't have been there before because under the older system they would just have had book space for the more popular Aasimar and Tieflings.

I can really see it go either way. I am just hoping that this leads to greater diversity, not homogenization.

I am really hoping this means we get more Ganzi and Aphorite related things rather than less and/or more generic things.

Ganzi and Aphorites (especially Ganzi) are my favorite Pathfinder specific things, and they feel very different than Aasimar and Tieflings. Ganzi especially has felt very underdeveloped in PF2e, so I really hope this allows for more frequent feats for them, rather than less.

People are doing a lot of speculation and guesswork right now and jumping to conclusions without a lot of information. I am very interested in seeing what we can actually learn from the upcoming streams.

And yet completely going against what I just said, Revisions to the Witch is some of the best news I've heard all year! With the removal of alignment, I'm very interested in seeing what happens to things like Aasimar, Tiefling, and Ganzi. Please don't take away my Ganzi. I love them so, so much.

Eoran wrote:

Farien, that is only correct from a purely linguistic point of view.

He's technically correct, the best kind of correct. And that's the point. ;)

I thought we were trying to avoid points here?

And if that becomes a problem, then that is a "problem player" problem.

Is that indicative of a problem player though? Both of those are things that I would expect to work and that I would see as being a clever move from a clever player. Why wouldn't a prosthetic arm be useful for reaching into a vat of acid?

Sonic damage immunity is more iffy. Sonic damage is going to work by sending shockwaves through your body just as much as assaulting your ear drums. I'd probably allow resistance, but not immunity.

For any player I have ever GMed for, and when I am being a player myself, to come up with a clever and unexpected way to utilize something that they have or can do is expected, praised, and makes them feel proud of themselves. And I think it's wrong to try and shut that down just because it makes a specific puzzle, task, or enemy easier to fight.

Don't forget that such things also inherently come with costs associated with them. The acid is going to damage that prosthetic. The person who is taking out their hearing aids to reduce the sonic damage is going to be functionally deaf until they put them back in.

So we now have a special weapon for Redeemers to equal the Paladin's Holy Avenger. It isn't just a great weapon, but specifically helps the Redeemer do the specific job they've been tasked with. And it's even the exact same level as the Holy Avenger, which creates a nice little bit of game symmetry.

Do we have anything like that for Liberators yet or are we still waiting for one? Because when I saw the Redeemer weapon I assumed we'd also get a Liberator one, but nothing like that showed up in the previews of the book.

A real, proper, Winter Witch archetype, and a Voidworm familiar.

This isn't even really about the problems with the Witch being under-tuned. Yes, I'd like the Witch to be better than it is, but I'd much rather my character have the right design than be heavily optimal.

The character who is my most important, whose name is my username, and who I have recreated in 3.5, PF1, and 5th edition, has always been a Winter Witch. And to me, that means discovering the occult and strange forms of Winter and utilizing the meaning and intent of coldness beyond the form of coldness.

Basically, I need an archetype that says "Your magic tradition is Occult, but you can also pick any spell with the Cold trait". And then they'd have some Archetype feats to do things like, move through your own Magically created Ice, throw Cold based curses on enemies, and that would re-flavor a bunch of Occult spells in a cold-like way (Synethesia works by making incredibly tiny pathways through your brain out of frost that connects the brain centers for difference senses, ect).

I'd be willing to drop the Witch down to 2 spell slots per level in order to get this, since I know that adding cold spells to the Occult spell list for them would do a lot to cover the biggest deficiency of the Occult spells list, and a lot of those other abilities are pretty strong as well.

And then Vali also needs a Voidworm familiar as he has always had, but while I'm at it, gimme familiars for all the level 1 outer planer creatures. The Cassisian Angel, and the Lyrakien and all that.

While I agree with the sentiment that a lot of control spells are much better in practice than they seem on paper, it's difficult to say exactly how much so without knowing what you are considering to be underpowered?

Do you mean Fear or do you mean Invisibility or Knock? Cause those are all very useful spells that don't immediately come across as useful for very different reasons.

Fear, for example, is considered by most to be a staple Level 1 spell, and the sort of spell you can keep in your back pocket long after most Level 1 spells have lost their luster.

Frightened 2 on a Fail or 1 on a Success is very, very good. Especially if you can do it right after the enemy's turn. An entire round of -2 to everything and another round of -1 to everything is fantastic and very powerful.

That's the equivalent of a +2 for each and every one of your martials to hit, as well as +2 to crit. That's up to a whole 20% of the die which have been moved in your favor. Then -2 for any of your party to get hit. And so on and so forth.

Is that game-changing? Well, yeah it can be. But usually not so much. But it's also a Level 1 spell.

If you're used to 5e, yeah the Pathfinder spells aren't going to feel as all-encompassing. You don't have anything that is going to immediately shut down an entire encounter (most of the time, although it will still happen occasionally). The spellcasters are much more in-line with the power of martials for the vast majority of the game.

In 5e, a well made Wizard (like the kind advocated by gamers like Treatmonk) are going to be overwhelmingly powerful throughout the entire run of a campaign. In PF2e, a Wizard and a Fighter will be equally as useful for something like 60% of all levels. But before they unlock level 3 spells, they're probably a bit under the par of Martials. Still can do very good things, mind you, but their ammunition for doing so will leave them feeling scrapping for spell slots.

Meanwhile, once you hit very high levels, 16 or higher, those casters will suddenly start feeling like the all-powerful God-Wizards they're meant to be. Some high level spells are insanely powerful, Utility, Control, Blasting, or whatever.

So lets look at some higher Level spells.

Slow feels like it does more in 5e, but if anything it's almost better in PF2. Yes, it doesn't have the penalty to AC and Reflex saves, but the 3-action economy is so powerful in PF2 that denying a creature access to their 3rd action is often crippling. Many monsters have very powerful 2 or 3 action abilities that you definitely want to avoid, and with Slow they can no longer use 3-action abilities at all and cannot use 2 action abilities while also maneuvering around the battlefield. And without a lot of Attacks of Opportunities, Pathfinder is a much more mobile game.

A Monster has a super deadly 2-action ability? Slow them, and have the martials all attack twice and then move back for their last action. Suddenly they can't do that at all.

This is so powerful that even when it only lasts one turn on a successful save it can completely turn the tide of an encounter if you make the most of it. If they fail and it lasts the full minute, it can basically win the encounter on its own. And once you can upcast it to 6th level and effect 10 creatures? No control mage should ever not have that on hand.

But personally I think that even better than Slow is Synesthesia. It's possibly my favorite spell of the game for its level. It gives three separate debuffs to a creature that can all be crippling in different scenarios.

25% chance to automatically fail all Concentrate actions. This is amazing against other spellcasters since any spell that has Verbal components is a Concentrate action.

25% change to miss anything you are attempting to target because of concealed. This means attacks, this means targeted spells. A spellcasting targeting you with a spell with Verbal components has to beat both of these checks.

And then the big one, Clumsy 3. That's -3 AC. -3 Reflex saves. -3 to ranged attacks, Acrobatics checks, and anything else that uses Dexterity.

Again, even an enemy that succeeds their save and is only effected for 1 round can be SOL if the party strategizes around it right, and one that fails and is effected for a whole minute is basically done.

Oh, and since neither Slow nor Synesthesia require concentration, you can totally effect a single enemy with both.

As a separate point, I am very curious if any of the Paizo team has ever addressed the general sense of discontent that the community has expressed for the Witch? I know that it is very rare that the developers address things like this, and I agree with that idea that they really probably shouldn't most of the time.

But I have seen them weigh in on balance issues before, so it isn't out of the ballpark that they could comment on this, but I haven't seen anything of the sort.

I have brought this up quite a few times. The Witch is a very important class to me and the current state of it is one of my only problems with Pathfinder as a whole. I feel like I've given whole dissertations on the topic before, so here is the shortened version of that, again.

The Witch is a 3-slot caster who is built like a 4-slot caster. It has the HP and saves like the Sorcerer or Wizard, and only really gets two "things" outside of their spellcasting and other basic class stuff, the Improved Familiar and the Hex cantrip (and Phase Familiar, but that isn't actually a thing to do that adds to the party's capabilities, just a way to stop your familiar from dying as quickly).

Wizard gets 3 things, but also only two that really advance your party's progression very well, the Thesis and the Arcane School (And Drain Bonded Item but that ability seems to be making up for the limitations of the Wizard's 4th slot) Sorcerer also gets 2 things really, the Initial Bloodline Spell and the Blood Magic.

Meanwhile, other 3-slot casters have much better chassis, and more things that they get outside of their spellcasting. Druids get their Order's Focus spell, a level 1 feat, Shield Block, and Wild Empathy. Bards get Counter Performance, Inspire Courage, and a level 1 feat from their Muse. Cloistered Clerics kind of break this mold by only getting 2 things, Divine Font and the Domain Spell, but Divine Font is so insanely powerful that I think it can safely be counted as worth two abilities from the other classes.

Now, I don't want Witch to be a boring, alt-flavored Wizard with 4 spells per day, so the answer seems to be, improve their Chassis and give them more things to do/have as part of the core of the class.

To this end, I'd replace Phase Familiar with a Basic Lesson of their choice, not tied to their Patron (since the Witch is supposed to be flexible in their flavor). Turn Phase Familiar into a level 1 feat. Add a level 2 feat that lets them take a second Hex Cantrip (the Bard can do it, so why not the Witch?).

And since the Witch has 3-slot casting, give them a 3-slot casting body. 8 HP per level, and better saves. I am partial to Fortitude getting Expert at 3 and Master at 17. Reflexes get Expert at 7. Will Gets Master at 9.

And then, while most of the Hex cantrips are fine and, in fact really good, Wilding Word and Nudge Fate should probably be buffed and Shroud of Night should upgrade to advanced darkness at some point.

This would almost entirely bring Witch in line with the other 3-slot casters.

BUT, I also have a build for a 2-slot caster (which is actually my preferred version) that looks a bit more like the Psychic. Since we only have one example of such a caster, it's a lot harder for me to know if these ideas are as balanced, but I figure I'll throw them out here regardless.

2 Hex Cantrips right off the bat, one from your own patron and one other of your choice. Level 2 feat to take a 3rd one.

Basic Lesson right off the bat of course. Phase Familiar would be a level 1 feat.

Patrons would have granted spells beyond just the level 1 ones, similar to the Sorcerer Bloodline granted spells.

Each Patron would also give a Familiar unique ability that would be just a bit better than the normal familiar abilities. Winter would give your Familiar resistance to all cold damage and immunity to cold damage from your own spells, Curse would allow you to cast Evil Eye from your Familiar as if it was the one casting it, ect.

And then You'd get a free level 1 feat depending on your Patron's spell list. Cackle for Occult, Wortwitch for Primal, Counterspell for Arcane, and Phase Familiar for Divine. Neither Phase Familiar, nor Cackle would give an extra Focus Point when given in this manner, but the Witch would start with 2 regardless.

And then, the Witch would also have the enhanced chassis of the 3-slot casters like I laid out before.

While technically a versatile Heritage, I really, really want to see more love given to the Ganzi.

Everyone loves a good ol' Tiefling or Aasismar, and we have a lot of excellent stuff to flesh them out.

And even the Aphorites have some cool stuff that feels like it is at least enough to flesh out a really good character.

But Ganzi, besides having had no extra love since their inclusion in the Ancestry guide, feel like what they do have is sort of haphazard at best.

No level 17 feat, and the feats that they do have feel very incomplete. The start of feat trees, like the vestigial wings and the chaos magic and to a lesser extent the gripping tail, without any follow up to enhance those.

The Valkyrie/Einherji feats are awesome, but there's only two of them. The random roll feats feel fun but frustrating, since they can be really cool but they're also somewhat unreliable.

I LOVE the Ganzi. They are by a large margin my favorite thing that is unique to Pathfinder. In PF1, they felt really interesting and had a lot of different things you could do with them. The Amorphous limbs, the all -powerful Quibble, the Void Touch, Entropic Flesh, Racing Mind, they were easily one of the more flexible Ancestries of PF1.

We could get a lot of those ideas reworked for PF2, plus more. Maybe a higher level feat could let you control any randomness in your other feats, maybe even some form of a lesser Warpwave.

There is SO much you could do with a child of Chaos, and I'm a little disappointed with what little we have so far.

I am finding myself in need of stat blocks for creatures that are beyond level 25.

The GMG has guides for giving stats to creatures up to level 24, for things like AC, saves, attack bonuses, AOE damage, and the like, but what would that table look like if it continued up to, for example, 30?

When these levels are introduced, it will lead in to the players being able to reach levels up to 25, which will include Mythic Proficiency (10+level) and +4 weapons, so with the basic math in hand I can probably eventually reason some basic numbers out, but I'd like to know if any ideas or guidelines have already been established by the community.

On top of which, I'd like to know roughly what levels I actually need. Narratively, what do different levels beyond 25 mean for the world? What are the levels of gods?

I'm working on the presumption that if someone statted up Sarenrae or Asmodeus, they would sit around 30 or so, but is that accurate or nah? Should it go higher?

I have one complaint. One TINY complaint. One ITTY BITTY, TEEEEEEENSY WEENSY complaint. And one that I can easily, immediately, and obviously homebrew to fix, BUT I can see some people calling it a power increase.

The Wand...should do sonic damage as an option. Or there should just be a Key implement that can conceptually open anything, that would be functional as well. Or both (and I'd probably take both in this case).

Then I'd take...I dunno...Timeskipper as my free archetype.

And I'd figure out how to make my Thaumaturge Demense into a pocket dimension inside of a small box. It shouldn't be that hard to figure something out...

Things might get a bit...wibbly-wobbly, but come on, the Thaumaturge is just perfect for this idea!

Vali Nepjarson wrote:

I am sorry, but I really, strongly disagree with your philosophy of GMing, SuperBidi.

It's because you haven't understood my point. All you describe is fine for me. For example, taking your examples:

I've understood your point perfectly well. You're drawing arbitrary distinctions that, if anything, proves my point.

In the first of my suggestions, the player is asking for the ability to use bludgeoning damage. That isn't on their character sheet, the weapon they are using cannot by RAW do that, but it feels so normal and natural that it seems weird that you wouldn't be able to do that (at least if you are somewhat familiar with how swords are used).

That is still power bargaining. It is still the player asking from the GM the ability to manipulate the mechanics of the game.

The difference is just the degree of control that the player is specifically asking for. But at that point the difference is quantitative, not qualitative.

And that's fine. How much power bargaining you are okay with is entirely up to you. But everyone is going to draw that line at a different place and the only way that a player is going to know where your line is, is by asking. And when something unforeseen comes up, sometimes they are going to have to ask in the moment. And I don't think that it's fair to say that a player is a problem at your table just for asking. It's draconian and tells the player that you don't trust them.

Now, I know I've rambled a bit, but to bring this back to Wish, the spell breaks all of the rules and changes a lot of how the game is played, because when you cast Fireball or use some Martial feat as a Fighter, you aren't in-universe describing what you are doing or going to do, or want to happen. When you make a Wish, you speak your intention to the universe and the universe (that is, the GM) responds.

You make the claim that the player shouldn't be asking for a mechanical resolution, or power bargain. I disagree with this idea, but let's put that aside for a moment.

The player casts Wish. "I wish to cast a cold-based Meteor Swarm."

You respond by telling them that they shouldn't ask for a mechanical resolution and just describe an effect. Wish for icebergs to fall on the foe or for frozen stalactites to explode or something.

They say, "I did. That was in-character. Inglethorp the Wizard says that he wishes to cast a cold-based Meteor Swarm. I could have said I wish to cast the Meteor Swarm spell where the meteors are frozen instead of on fire, but that felt clunkier to say."

See what I'm saying? Because the character verbalizes the effect that they wish to happen into the universe, (or prays it in the case of Miracle, or conceptualizes it for Alter Reality, or will it for Primal Phenomenon), the spell straight up requires the player to power bargain. Because it lets the PC inflict their will on the universe.

Even if you want to say, "If I tell you to open the door with Athleticism, don't bother asking to use Thievery unless you can explain how you do so", Wish is different. It lets you break the mold. It gives the player the tiniest portion of GM authority, albeit only for a moment and still at the GM's discretion to veto or adjust. You are allowed to dislike that, and personally I would have made Wish uncommon or even rare, but you can't ignore the writing on the spell, disallow the in-baked functionality of what it does, and call it rules as written.

I am sorry, but I really, strongly disagree with your philosophy of GMing, SuperBidi. The vast majority of behaviors that you deride as indicative of a "problem player" are normal and natural parts of the game, and if they become problems, that tells me a lot more about the GM then it does about the players.

For the instance with Wish, yes, you are right to say that being able to cast a version of Meteor Swarm of any damage type you want is stronger than just being able to cast Meteor Swarm. However, that doesn't mean that the effect you are producing is stronger than Meteor Swarm, it is exactly equally as strong, just more useful in a specific scenario. It would be less useful if you happened to be fighting White Dragons instead of Red.

The effect is not more powerful. The ability to chose which effect you cast is what is more powerful. And, yeah. That's expected. Wish is a level 10 spell, while Meteor Swarm is a level 9. Wish SHOULD be more powerful. Being able to cast any lower level spell and adjust them on the fly (as long as your adjustments don't mess too much with the power of the effect itself), is what makes it more powerful than any individual level 9 or lower effect.

Now, what you decide is an effect that is in line with a level 9 arcane effect is going to be different, GM to GM. If a player fights with you after you have made a decision, then that might be a problem behavior at a table (unless the GM's decision is clearly egregious, but even then the discussion should be made after the game, not during). Changing fire damage to cold damage is fine, but changing it to necrotic or good turn the spell into the purview of a Divine spell instead of an Arcane one, and damage types like force or mental are actually better than the elementals, so I'd have to consider that.

Either way though, you have mentioned a few times that you feel that this sort of thing is the equivalent of power bargaining with the GM. I say yes, but why is that a bad thing? When I am GMing, I expect my players to do this, at a bare minimum and if I was playing at a table that didn't allow it...well I'd strongly consider not playing at that table, since to me that is a core an extremely important part of playing a TTRPG of any kind.

"Can I fire Disintegrate at the pillar holding the roof up, and collapse it on the Manticore?"

"Instead of picking the lock, which might take time we don't have since the guards are right on our tail, can the Barbarian smash it with his Warhammer?"

"The Skeleton is clearly resisting my longsword's slashing and piercing damage, can I try and strike it with my pommel instead to do bludgeoning?"

All of these are reasonable requests. If your instinct reaction is to be mad at a player for thinking outside the box, or fear that they are trying to cheat the system, I'd reconsider the way that you interpret the role of the GM. I have never considered the job of the GM to be to tell players what they can and can't do, but to help players determine a fair and reasonable way to help players do what they want to do.

"You can totally cast Disintegrate at the pillar, but whether the roof falls depends on how much damage you roll. Not enough and don't do anything. Do enough and you will not only do a decent amount of damage, but you'll pin the Manticore under the rubble, forcing it to use at least one action to do an escape check".

"Yeah, smash that lock. Just be aware that if you fail, you'll jam the door shut and it'll be much harder to get open."

"Sure, the sword's pommel can do that. But it isn't designed or optimized for it, so treat it like a shoddy mace, and your runes effect your attack since they're designed to work with the sword's blade."

All of that is successful and productive power bargaining with the GM. Now, maybe some GM's consider these bargains too permissive. Others might be more generous still. And some GMs might even ask players to keep to only the explicitly written effects of things because they aren't comfortable coming up with rulings on the fly, especially if they are newer to the game. All of these are fair. But to say "You aren't allowed to ask for a different effect than what I have specifically given you, and stop asking because doing so is going to be treated with hostility by me", is a clear sign of a problem GM.

Moment of Renewal also targets 6 people. Healing 1 entity to full, unless it was like, something with 800 or more HP, would still be less healing total than that. And obviously, single target heal and group heal isn't equivalent necessarily, but I still think that I'd allow a single Max Potion for a creature with Miracle.

Wish, maybe not, but my rules when it comes to Wish and similar spells has always been that you can ask for anything you can imagine, and if it's too much...well maybe there are consequences.

My IDEAL Witch, is more like this.

2-slot caster. Like the Psychic. Significantly less spells, but in return you get a crap-ton of extra things out of the Witch.

2 Hex Cantrips right off the bat, one from your own patron and one other of your choice. Level 2 feat to take a 3rd one.

Basic Lesson right off the bat of course. Phase Familiar would be a level 1 feat.

Patrons would have granted spells beyond just the level 1 ones, similar to the Sorcerer Bloodline granted spells.

Each Patron would also give a Familiar unique ability that would be just a bit better than the normal familiar abilities. Winter would give your Familiar resistance to all cold damage and immunity to cold damage from your own spells, Curse would allow you to cast Evil Eye from your Familiar as if it was the one casting it, ect.

And then You'd get a free level 1 feat depending on your Patron's spell list. Cackle for Occult, Wortwitch for Primal, Counterspell for Arcane, and Phase Familiar for Divine. Occult and Divine might need new ones though, since I don't like two of the four lists starting off with an extra Focus point for free...

And then, the Witch would also have the enhanced chassis of the 3-slot casters like I laid out before.

I did a huge analysis of this a while back, and the shortened version is this,

The Witch is a 3-slot caster who is built like a 4-slot caster. It has the HP and saves like the Sorcerer or Wizard, and only really gets two "things" outside of their spellcasting and other basic class stuff, the Improved Familiar and the Hex cantrip (and Phase Familiar, but that isn't actually a thing to do that adds to the party's capabilities, just a way to stop your familiar from dying as quickly).

Wizard gets 3 things, but also only two that really advance your party's progression very well, the Thesis and the Arcane School. Drain Bonded item I feel is meant to make up for the limitations of the 4th slot that Wizards get being restricted, or just gives the Wizard their 4th slot for Universalist. Sorcerer also gets 2 things really, the Initial Bloodline Spell and the Blood Magic. Then they have Signature Spells which also helps to compensate for the weakness of their casting style.

Meanwhile, other 3-slot casters have much better chassis, and more things that they get outside of their spellcasting. Druids get their Order's Focus spell, a level 1 feat, Shield Block, and Wild Empathy. Bards get Counter Performance, Inspire Courage, and a level 1 feat from their Muse. Cloistered Clerics kind of break this mold by only getting 2 things, Divine Font and the Domain Spell, but Divine Font is so insanely powerful that I think it can safely be counted as worth two abilities from the other classes.

Now, I don't want Witch to be a boring, alt-flavored Wizard with 4 spells per day, so the answer seems to be, improve their Chassis and give them more things.

To this end, I'd replace Phase Familiar with a Basic Lesson of their choice, not tied to their Patron (since the Witch is supposed to be flexible in their flavor). Turn Phase Familiar into a level 1 feat. Add a level 2 feat that lets them take a second Hex Cantrip (the Bard can do it, so why not the Witch?).

And since the Witch has 3-slot casting, give them a 3-slot casting body. 8 HP per level, and better saves. I am partial to Fortitude getting Expert at 3 and Master at 17. Reflexes get Expert at 7. Will Gets Master at 9.

And then, while most of the Hex cantrips are fine and, in fact really good, Wilding Word and Nudge Fate should probably be buffed and Shroud of Night should upgrade to advanced darkness at some point.

I know that some people really want a Witch that goes more off the rails when compared to other casters, but this objectively brings them in line with what we know Paizo currently considers to be balanced.

That said...I would still be happy to see a more...out there Witch as well...he he he.

I can think of no reason why not and as a GM this is the kind of clever usage of spells that, if you could get to work for you, would be something I would reward.

But I don't think it's as powerful as you imply. A level 8 spell to safely sustain a spell forever while not being able to do anything else in an encounter isn't THAT big a deal.

Similarly a level 8 spell to guarantee one person an ambush is...like, I feel like it can be done pretty easily and with more payoff with just Rope Trick most of the time.

I'm sure there are good uses for it. But I don't think it's game breaking. And if you find a way or place it is... it's probably rare enough a circumstance that it's worth rewarding rather than punishing.

I would like to note, while I do like Monks and think they're a perfectly good class when you combine their high saves and AC, insane speed, FoB, and stances...and while I love Nonat1's videos, him being one of my favorite Pathfinder YouTubers...

He is notoriously not the best at balance questions. He puts a ridiculously high value on being able to do "everything" even if you're objectively bad at all of it. He does consider alchemist to be one of his favorite classes, and he considers Untrained Improvisation to be overwhelmingly the best general feat in the game.

Monk is good. I've got a player using one right now with the other players playing a Rogue, Cleric, and Magus, and she's come in clutch to save us more than once with how tanky she is compared to the rest of the party.

She doesn't have the best DPR, but that's what the Rogue and Magus are for!

Not jumping into the conversation fully, but I wanted to say that I'm always curious to see folks discussing proteans and their particular flavor(s) or Chaotic Neutrality, especially as it contrasts with, for instance, the slaadi from D&D. I tried to go out of my way to make proteans less 'evil lite' or 'comic relief' as slaadi (as much as I love them, especially Xanxost) were often portrayed, especially so after Planescape.

Ultimately I think proteans can't be judged on a broad level for "what does CN mean to them" but rather "what does this individual protean, a member of this individual chorus have, for the moment, as a motivating philosophy and immediate course of action".

And I am incredibly grateful for that. It's exactly what I would want out of the supreme beings of cosmic Chaos in it's purest form.

It really sounds like it's just the Bestiary description that is, maybe not wrong, but perhaps slightly misleading and oversimplified and I was acting on incomplete information.

Regardless, the Proteans are my absolutely favorite things in Pathfinder and the thing which is the biggest improvement over their D&D counterparts.

The rebellions in Vidrian and Ravounel were Chaotic acts, but nobody (other than the imperialists and colonizers) would call them Evil. The High King of Dongun Hold having open relations with the humans of Alkenstar and attempting to mend her people's bad blood with the orcs is definitely not Lawful dwarven traditionalism - and neither is distributing gunpowder weapons to places that didn't have them before, arguably. The work of the Firebrands, the Grey Corsairs, and almost any pirate under the sun is going to be Chaotic, and the Magaambya and Pathfinder Society do plenty of Chaotic things, too.

It's not hard to find positive depictions of Chaotic characters.

Yes, absolutely. But I'm not talking about people who are chaotic. Plenty of them can be good.

I'm talking about native outsiders who represent the alignment of chaos itself, and how they're represented versus the ones who represent the alignment of law.

This is a term that one of my long time TTRPG companions who has been playing since the original first edition D&D uses a lot to describe how most developers and people in general seem to treat creatures of Chaos, whether that be Slaadi or Proteans or trickster gods like Loki, like Chaos is a synonym for dangerous, destructive, or even just a different flavor of evil.

I'm kind of inclined to agree, and it's one of my pet peeves about the industry as a whole.

Proteans are described as things to be afraid of, seeking confusion and bedlam, and the end of things via entropy. If they end up being helpful, it's more because of their unpredictable whims and they could easily turn on you for no reason.

But this isn't chaos. Heck, some of that seems almost lawful. Sure, confusion can create chaos, but so can giving mortals dreams where they can reshape their world, giving them the inspiration to change long-standing laws and social norms.

And I have never understood the association with chaos and entropy. Like, the state of entropy is when the universe reaches a state of energy equilibrium, where no more reactions to create a change in the energy state of the universe can happen. That's like...the furthest thing from chaos I can imagine and beings dedicated to chaos SHOULD be fighting tooth and nail against it!?

Meanwhile, Inevitables might be unyeilding and unchangeable, and Aons care only about the universe as a whole and are dispassionate about your problems, but they can theoretically be reasoned with and as long as you aren't doing anything to break the laws of reality, they probably have no interest in harming you directly.

They're dangerous, but really only if you're stupid or your desires conflict with them directly. Proteans are dangerous no matter what.

And they're a HUGE improvement on Slaadi for the record.

And this sort of idea encourages bad stereotypes that to this day leads to bad roleplaying. The players who think "Chaotic Neutral" means doing any random thing because it's funny regardless of consequences or how much it hurts the party. When an actual Chaotic Neutral is someone who seeks to change the status quo of the world in some way, and doesn't want to hurt anyone but also isn't going to lose sleep if it happens on the way.

All to say, I am really hoping to a lot more nuanced ideas about the entities of Chaos in the future.

If the goals of the Aons is to uphold the order of the universe, the goals of the Proteans should be to bring about change in the universe and maybe even create new order before going on to something else.

I've put a lot of thought into this so...while a couple of these are hyper specific, I think they would be very popular books for a lot of reasons.

SuperBidi wrote:

Elephant, Mammoth, T-Rex and a lot of dinosaurs.

Elephants are actual mounts in our world and I find it really sad you can't have one in the game. Dinosaurs are limited to small raptors and pterosaurs. There are tons of nice dinosaurs out there that would be pretty cool to have.

Also, Pangolin is in the game. But it doesn't spread diseases...

According to a post on Reddit from someone who has the book, both Elephant and T-Rex are in Quest for the Frozen Flame Book 3 (you're encouraged to use elephant for mammoths)!

He also said there's Rhino and Triceratops there, and the latter of which is, like, my biggest need.

Now I just want Stegosaurus, Ankylosaurs, Sauropod, and...well as many dinos as you can fit.

Plus apparently, the Trike's companion ability is to attack and knock prone in the same action, and then the bonus effect is that it does more damage to prone targets.

Which, you know, might make Trikes end up as a top tier pick, considering how powerful prone is.

But that's him telling me, telling you, and he said he didn't have the book on him and was going off memory, so who knows?

I really think that the whole "precious trait" discussion is a red herring.

Yes, a weapon made out of silver or cold iron should have the precious trait. The precious trait is not what causes those materials to trigger weaknesses.

The precious trait itself does nothing. If there was, for example, a monster with an ability that causes it to dissolve any material with the precious trait, then the trait would have a function but to my knowledge it currently does not really.

As for whether TKP can trigger weaknesses from materials, I can see the argument for either interpretation of the rules, but RAW combined with context clues provided by devs, I really think it should work.

The rules for weaknesses state that if a creature posseses a weakness to a material, then touching that material at all triggers it. Taking a silver coin and pushing it into a werewolf with your thumb triggers the weakness. I really don't think you can argue that TKP doesn't cause the item to come into contact with the target.

On top of that, Logan Bonner has stated in a Q&A session that if you chuck a Warhammer at someone that is silver and has the striking rune, then the striking rune does not trigger because the warhammer doesn't have the thrown trait and so you're treating it as an improvised weapon, but the silver still triggers because that's intrinsic to the object itself and it doesn't matter how you touch the target with it.

Between those two things, I really don't think you can argue that material based weaknesses don't trigger.

The more nebulous thing is whether a GM would allow a lit torch to do the 1 fire damage that it says it does when you hit someone with it.

I would say RAW, no. But I might allow it, arguing that it's a reasonable cost to maybe losing your torch.

It's slightly off-topic, but I really would like to see them expand on and enhance what we have for the Ganzi.

They feel really underwhelming to me, especially when compared to the other alignment based planestouched heritages.

Tiefling, Aasimar, and Duskwalker all have way more options, and even Aphorite feels like the options they have are much more interesting and cohesive. Ganzi are overwhelmingly my favorite heritage in Pathfinder and right now what we have feels like it could be a lot better. Not even a token "now your wings can fly" feat.

Agreed with all of this. The thing that is really necessary for a Winter Witch, as they are seen by those who really love them, is that they need the Occult Spell list, but also Cold spells.

If the Witch had as many given spells as the Sorcerer, you could probably homebrew something easily enough, with a Patron that gave the Occult list but all the granted spells being Cold themed.

Since the Witch doesn't really naturally have that, I do think that a class Archetype is probably necessary.

I'm building one myself actually that gives the Occult spell list, as well as any spell with the Cold trait, drops to a Psychic-esque 2 spell slots per level, but also gives a few other abilities to help buff them up. They get one Hex Cantrip from any Patron that grants Occult spells, and also Clinging Ice. Their Familiar is innately resistant to cold damage and immune to cold damage from the Witch's own spells. And they replace Phase Familiar with another Focus spell called Phasing Frost, which allows them to move over and though snow and ice with no penalties, see though snow and fog, and at higher levels even phase through snow and ice as tough it isn't there (which has some cool synergy with spells like Wall of Ice).

Well, it says I have reach, and I check every box for flanking at the time of my attack.

To my knowledge there's nothing stating it has to be your base reach, or permanent reach, or that you must have had the reach for x amount of time, or anything like that.

I've quoted the rules. Do you have any rules, citations, or sources supporting your beliefs/memory?

I don't know where the ruling was. I distinctly remember reading it on these forums, and I remember it being talked about a decent bit.

Thinking on it, I think the answer was actually given about Attack's of Opportunity. Not flanking. Can you make an AoO with the Lunge ability? No, and the reason it doesn't work inherently is because AoO states that the triggering creature must be within your reach, not the reach of one of your abilities.

There is an entire other feat that does allow that in fact, Lunging Stance.

Flanking uses the exact same language. To flank an enemy, that enemy must be within your reach. It even specifies that if you are wielding a reach weapon, the reach of that weapon counts for the purposes of flanking. It wouldn't need to specify that if flanking worked for the reach of any of your special melee abilities.

So no, RAW, the rune does not allow you to flank or gain the benefits of flanking from 60 (or 120) feet away.

If you're hardcore (read: stupid), you could probably rip out the eyes that are effected by the magical blindness and then cast regenerate. Since those new eyes wouldn't be the ones effected by the magic, you could make an argument for them being able to see.

We shouldn't use old design models to assume that an old class "won't work" in PF2.

The Witch, the Swashbuckler, Oracle, and the Investigator all have extremely different mechanics to their PF1 counterpart. The Oracle especially changed their design in such a way as to justify it being it's own class whereas the PF1 Oracle really could have been a class archetype for the PF2 Sorcerer.

Any class that previously was "too similar in scope" to another class could easily be given a new lease on life and fleshed out in PF2.

As for me personally, I'd like to see Shaman and either Psychic or Occultist in the next book.

Name the book "Delve into the Occult" or something similar. Mostly because I feel like such a book could really grow the Witch's potential. And let's be honest, the Witch probably needs it more than any other class right now.

Level 10, the best of the best. The most powerful spells available to any spellcaster in Golarian and the top of power for really any player character short of Artifacts. I love level 10 spells. They just feel like they give a PC a great deal of unique and potent narrative and combat potency.

But I also kinda feel like right now we don't have a whole lot of options for them right now. Most level 19-20 spellcasters are going to more or less have the same of several very few options for these ultimate powers. And of the ones that we do have, a lot of them are, for lack of a better term, very obvious. Wish and it's various variants, a super big explosion of every element, a couple crazy battle forms, "Can't touch this", "I can go ANYWHERE", "Everybody back up!", ect. There's a few more interesting ideas, like Fabricate Truth and Time Stop (even if Time Stop is super traditional), but I'm itching for more.

I'm sure we'll have some more new options in Secrets of Magic, and I'm super hyped for that, but in the meantime, here are a few ideas of mine. One that is a recreation of a PF1 spell (and utilizes two currently PF2 spells in it's design), and two that are my own but both heavily inspired by other things (one is based off of one of my favorite Anime powers and another off of one of my favorite 5e homebrews).

Sovereign Soul
Level 10
Rare, Enchantment
Traditions Divine, Occult
Cast 2-actions (verbal, somatic)
Area 100-foot emanation
Saving Throw Will Duration Varies

Your soul carries with it the quality of the true conqueror and the ambition to stand above all others. This power emanates from your body and clashes with the souls of all those around you, forcing their spirit to either align, follow, or rebel. This spell doesn't effect creatures that have no spirit, such as constructs.

Only creatures that were already friendly towards the caster may chose to align with the sovereignty of the caster. Those who pick this option gain 15 temporary hit points, a +1 status bonus to all saves for the next minute, and cannot be inflicted with the frightened condition for one hour from any source except for Artifacts, Deities, and similarly powerful effects.

Creatures that are not friendly towards with the caster may only make the choice to follow or rebel. If a creature follows, they will gain all the benefits of those who align with the caster, but also cannot act in such a way that goes against the will and goals of the caster as the following soul understands them. If they do, they immediately lose the benefits of aligning with the caster and are affected by the rebelling option as if they had chosen to rebel from the beginning. All non-sapient beasts of level 15 or lower will usually automatically follow, unless they are highly trained or are friendly enough with the caster to align.

Creatures that rebel must make a will save as their soul fights against the will of the sovereign. This effect has the incapacitation trait.

Critical Success The creature is frightened 2.
Success The creature is frightened 3 and cannot reduce their frightened condition below 1 until they are more than 30 feet from the caster.
Failure The creature is frightened 4 and cannot reduce their frightened condition below 2 until they are more than 30 feet from the caster. Also, for the next week, any time they are within 30 feet of the caster they become frightened 1.
Critical Failure The creature falls unconscious as their spirit is completely overwhelmed by the sovereignty of the caster. An ally may attempt to wake the creature by spending an action to embolden them, at which point they are immediately effected as if they had failed their initial save.

A creature cannot follow or rebel dishonestly. If a creature intends to act against the will and goal of the sovereign, they cannot temporarily follow in order to gain the benefits of following before they rebel. At the GM's discretion a creature who rebels may switch to following if they genuinely repent of their rebellion through either fear or if their reasons for acting against the sovereign changes.

Polar Midnight
Level 10
Cold, Darkness, Evocation
Traditions Arcane, Primal
Cast 3-actions (material, somatic, verbal)
Range 1,000 feet; Area 30-foot burst
Saving Throw Fortitude; Duration sustained up to 1 minute

You plunge the area into the unforgiving deep chill of the frozen polar night. All lights in the area are snuffed out as if under the effect of a level 2 Darkness spell. Any creature that starts it's turn in the area takes 6d10 cold damage and must attempt a Fortitude save as the deep cold seeps into their body.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.
Success The target takes half damage and becomes drained 1
Failure The target takes full damage and becomes drained 2 or increases their current drained status by 1 to a maximum of drained 4.
Critical Failure The target takes double damage and becomes drained 2 or increases their current drained status by 2 to a maximum of drained 4.

A target that spends it's entire turn within the area of the spell is encased in a sheath of ice. Targets captured in this way are restrained with the Escape or Force Open DC being your spell DC. The ice has Hardness 10 and 20 HP, and it is immune to cold damage but has weakness 10 to fire damage. Breaking the ice frees the creature and ends the spell. If someone other than the target breaks the ice from outside, the target is stunned 1 and takes any damage dealt by the breaking effect in excess of the ice's Hit Points.

When you sustain this spell you may move the area of the spell up to 15 feet in any direction

Singularity
Level 10
Unique, Transmutation
Traditions Arcane, Occult
Cast 3-actions (material, somatic, verbal)
Range 1 mile; Area varies
Saving Throw varies, Duration sustained, up to 1 minute

At a point within range you compress an area of spacetime into a single absolute point. When you first cast the spell it creates a 3-foot in diameter Small black orb that occupies a 5 foot square. The orb generates a 40-foot emanation of gravitational distortion, pulling all creatures and unsecure items towards the orb, based on a Reflex saving throw. This effect works in all ways like the Gravity Well spell. The Orb also generates a 10-foot radius emanation event horizon that consumes all things that pass through it. Non-magical items and magical items of level 14 or lower that are unattended are instantly destroyed upon entering the area, and creatures that pass into the area or start their turn in the area must make a Fortitude save with the following effects.

Critical Success The target takes 1d12 force damage, 1d12 cold damage, and 1d12 bludgeoning damage.
Success The target takes half of the accumulated damage.
Failure The target takes the full accumulated damage and is stunned 1.
Critical Failure The target takes the full accumulated damage, is stunned 2, and one equipped non-magical item or magical item of level 14 or lower is consumed by the orb.

Throughout the duration of the singularity, it continues to grow in size and power. The damage of the singularity starts at 2d12 force damage, 2d12 cold damage, and 2d12 bludgeoning damage. The first time each round that the singularity consumes an item or kills a creature, the singularity grows. If a ranged attack from a weapon or a spell of lower than 7th level passes on it's trajectory through the area of the singularity it's target changes to that of the singularity and causes it to grow. It can also grow if the caster chooses when the spell is sustained. The singularity can never grow by more than 3 stages each round. When it grows the singularity increases in power in the following ways.

The damage increases by 1d12 for each damage type.

The radius of the gravity well effect increases by 10 feet.

The radius of the damaging event horizon increases by 5 feet.

When the singularity ends by most means, whether because the caster stops sustaining the spell or it is forcefully ended through other means, the singularity explodes, effecting the current radius of the gravity well, damaging all creatures with the total accumulated damage of the singularity, subject to a basic Reflex save, and pushing all creatures to the outer edge of the area of the gravity well.

The black orb creating the singularity can be attacked like any normal target. It starts with 250 HP with an AC of 45 and is immune to critical hits, precision, persistent, mental, poison, acid, positive, negative, and all aligned damage. It has weakness 50 to force damage. The singularity recovers 25 HP whenever it grows by 1 stage. A Disintegrate spell heightened to level 10 will instantly destroy the singularity. If the singularity is destroyed by these means, it immediately collapses and detonates. The singularity can also be nullified with a counteract check if targeted by a Dispel Magic spell heightened to 10th level. If dispelled in this manner, the singularity fizzles out without detonating.

The caster may attempt to sustain the singularity past the 1-minute limit to it's duration, but every round that they do so, they must make a Will save against their own spell DC or lose control of the singularity. Once lost control of in this way, the singularity will continue to grow indefinitely unless destroyed.

The striking runes are sort of baked into the forms... -SNIP-

Yes, but that doesn't tell you how that interacts with the Deadly trait, which is what Gortle was getting at, I'm pretty sure.

The Deadly traits add's extra damage die on a crit but how many depends on what sort of striking runes you have on your weapon usually. Not how many die the attack in question does.

With the heightened form of the spell, it says to "double the damage dice". Does this include the die from deadly? Assuming that the die in question is a d12, then does the heightened form have 2d12 deadly damage?

I'd assume not, but it isn't very well clarified.

Usually an attack wouldn't get 2 dice on the deadly trait until the weapon had a greater striking rune and thus did 3 die of damage. What if there was a level 9 version of the spell that said to triple all damage dice? Would you turn it into deadly 2d12 then to keep it in line with what you'd expect from striking runes? Or would you make it deadly 3d12 since it says "triple all damage dice"? Or would you leave it at 1d12 because even if the damage dice number is equal to a greater striking rune, it isn't actually one?

Again, I'm pretty sure the answer is to keep the deadly damage to once dice unless it specifies otherwise, but I do wish we had some more specific guidelines to go off of.

One thing that could be interesting here is of the number of actions it takes to cast a spell is directly proportional to how long the incantation is.

Black Tentacles

"Gurgling darkness from the underneath, boil, roil, rumble and ream! Reach out for, grasp out for, and make my enemies SCREAM!!!"

Weapon of Judgement (a little long for two actions but I just have to).

"I am the bone of my sword. Steel is my body and fire is my blood. I have created over a thousand blades. Unknown to death. Nor known to life. Have withstood pain to create many weapons. Yet those hands shall never hold anything. So as I pray, unlimited blade works (or Weapon of Judgement)!"

Yeah approaching the enemy camp as an animal. Since the stealth is pretty much useless, you gotta hope that they don't mind wild animals flopping around their place. Cause if they do turn out to care, you ain't getting away.

Use your discretion. Is it a military encampment or bandit hideout? They probably won't care unless your GM is specifically looking to get you. A castle is going to have a lot more problems obviously.

Walking around town? Call for animal control! That thing might bite the children!

You must live in a very different sort of place than I do (and I don't mean that in any sort of snarky or demeaning way, just that different people have different experiences). In my experience if anyone suggested calling animal control for anything less than a mountain lion, people would roll their eyes at you. And it's not like I live in some super rural area either. A renaissance or medieval inspired town? If the GM pulled that I'd assume he was specifically trying to screw me over.

If we're talking about the Witch's specific identity, then I feel like no one is really getting to the heart of it. Yes, the Witch's role can be as a blaster, a debuffer, a healer, or whatever, but I really don't think that is the Witch's identity per say.

And honestly, looking at the way PF2 is designed, I really feel like classical "Tank/Healer/DPS/Utility/Buffer/Debuffer" roles aren't the best way to look at things, but I'm not going to get into the heavy details of that in this thread.

A Witch's role, in my opinion, is to subvert the conventional way that other classes do their jobs by messing with the flow of things with abilities that work in unconventional ways.

Discern Secrets, for example essentially lets you make a Recall Knowledge check with someone else's modifier. YMMV how useful this is, but at a table that gets a lot of use out of Recall Knowledge, it can be extremely potent.

Evil Eye is worse than Dirge of Doom, sure (it's a level 1 ability as opposed to a level 6 ability, so that isn't surprising) but it's an early way of getting fear on an enemy so that will stick for longer than a round and it's really easy to do in social situations in a way so that no one knows you are doing it (or can't prove it even if they do know).

Needle of Vengeance can do some nice damage, but it can ALSO aid in tanking and general survival by discouraging an enemy to attack a specific target. Sure, the Barbarian might have the lowest AC of the guys attacking the evil anti-paladin, buuuuuut he gets a really bad headache whenever it happens, so maybe attack the fighter instead even though he's less likely to hit...

Malicious Shadow might not be the best attack, but it can allow you to consistently attack while staying hidden and out of sight doing nothing to give your location away.

Glacial Heart is a level 5 spell that is both almost as good of single target debuff as a level 6 spell and does almost as much damage to that target as another level 5 spell. Basically nothing in the game that I can think of can do that much damage while also doing that good of a debuff. Yeah it's rare, but still, hot damn Baba Yaga...

Even objectively bad options like Wilding Word or Nudge Fate still do this. Nudge fate lets you give a +1 to a skill check that you can wait to give someone until they need and retroactively give them, while Wilding Word is a fascinating way of letting the Witch be tankier AND an unusual and interesting way of potentially inflicting sickened on someone, only held back by it's abysmal target limitations.

In my opinion, the identity of the Witch should be, and basically already is, doing whatever they're doing in such a way that it breaks the normal conventions of how to deal with it. Heck, even their "other" level 20 feat...the mobile hut. It's not mechanically the best, but what other class can give you an entire stable base of operations that can move with you.

How powerful or well balanced any of these are? Again, it depends entirely on you the player and how well you can manipulate these abilities. Some will be really good, while others will be really bad. But as more options are released it it will become easier to sparse out exactly which choices will work for different people and situations.

As I said in my previous post, the problem is not that the Witch's abilities are worse than the Bard's or the Druid's or whomever else's. The problem is that the Witch gits objectively fewer of these things to do from the start and also Witch has both less spells than the Wizard but is more fragile than the Bard or Druid.

I hold to my personal fixes for the class. Replace Phase Familiar with a Basic Lesson so that you have the same number of things to do and also give the Witch 8 HP per level and saves that look more like that of a Bard instead of a Wizard.

Do that and the Witch will be perfectly well balanced as a class with every other spellcaster and will frankly be my favorite spellcaster in the game just because of how subversive their ability set is.