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Nothing seems to prevent this, no. Though to be honest, if you're not fighting something that is immune to teleportation effects it is far better to just use it on the biggest baddie an encounter since it doesn't offer any form of initial saving throw to avoid them being blipped off to nowhere which would at LEAST cause them to lose the first Action on their next turn.
The main hangup with regard to using this as part of an ambush is that you do not have any Spells that you'd be able to cast with the singular Action that does what you want and leave you with two more Actions to Maze yourself, in other words, unless you hit them with the sustained/persistent damage Spell and ALSO ensure you're at a safe distance you're probably going to cause hell to rain down on you while you wait for your next turn.
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I can think of no reason why not and as a GM this is the kind of clever usage of spells that, if you could get to work for you, would be something I would reward.
But I don't think it's as powerful as you imply. A level 8 spell to safely sustain a spell forever while not being able to do anything else in an encounter isn't THAT big a deal.
Similarly a level 8 spell to guarantee one person an ambush is...like, I feel like it can be done pretty easily and with more payoff with just Rope Trick most of the time.
I'm sure there are good uses for it. But I don't think it's game breaking. And if you find a way or place it is... it's probably rare enough a circumstance that it's worth rewarding rather than punishing.
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This would actual work as a really silly ambush tool for an enemy caster against the party. Keep a clairvoyance eye watching an area, maze up self or some hulking boss brute, wait for party to enter area and then drop it, utterly ruining their formation and putting the fear into the squishy backline.
I could also imagine that ambush backfiring in a major way, depending on how the adversary approaches the sight. The caster in the Maze has zero communication so must pop out, no matter how dire their placement is and whether their allies have or haven't engaged with the enemy already.
Given I've seen a near TPK occur through similar planning & shenanigans, I wouldn't place bets on this. Plus what kind of enemy & setting at those levels would this work with? Seems too specific to worry about.
Better would be Telepathic Bond (if one can gain access to it), and then Dim Door (et al) into the battle to wherever your ally says is most tactical.
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And which sustained damage over time spell or effect are we discussing here that it'll make such a difference? I mean there are allies, right? (at least hopefully to survive that round waiting to cast Maze)
Wouldn't Maze simply cut off attacks on the caster and prevent the caster from contributing any further? Odds are that's in the enemies' favor.
And again, you'd be cut off from any knowledge, so when exactly did you plan to exit the Maze?
Yeah, I don't think there are a ton of sustaining spells that just work without needing to target or whatever.
I'm reminded of a battle where a guy panicked because the enemies were immune to his main attacks so he Dimension Doored away. He realized his folly when I asked him how long before he returned, since he'd have no clues about when the battle was over much less successful and the other PCs had no idea where he'd gone so as to fetch him.
Oops.
Thankfully for him it wasn't a dynamic dungeon where he might stumble on an incoming patrol or reactive predator.
Another use would be to create temporary safety for a party member (possibly yourself) who is about to get taken out, to get a chance to heal up without getting mauled down even faster.
Mind you that most spells are not infinitely sustainable. I believe unless otherwise mentioned a spell can be sustained only for 1-10 minutes? Feel free to correct me if I remembered it wrong but I believe there's a cap even on a sustained duration
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Mind you that most spells are not infinitely sustainable. I believe unless otherwise mentioned a spell can be sustained only for 1-10 minutes? Feel free to correct me if I remembered it wrong but I believe there's a cap even on a sustained duration
Caster gets Fatigued at 10 minutes, and can't Sustain further.
Some spells have an "up to X" time limit as well.I just can't think of any spell that'd warrant hiding the caster vs. having the caster cast more spells each round, even Cantrips. Unless the caster's on the brink of dying anyway. But then that's a normal use of Maze anyway, and when you just happen to have a spell to Sustain already up.
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Also, is anyone else getting mixed up by the fact that Maze doesn't have the Incapacitation Trait?
Sure it is level 8, it's meant to be powerful but... at WORST it fizzles in the extremely rare situation where the opponent is immune to teleportation effects because of... something... otherwise, it completely removes the opponent from the board for all intents and purposes until it spends at least 1 Action at the beginning of its next round and ROLLS a Critical Success. If it gets a normal Success that removes them from combat WHOLESALE for at least 1 full round + 1 action during the second round if it makes back to back saving throws. The creature doesn't get upgraded saving throws no matter what level it is...
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RAW I don't see anything that disallows sustaining a spell outside a Maze spell from inside a Maze spell.
For me personally, I don't think I'd allow it. Conceptually, when you are sustaining a spell, you have some sort of magical connection to the effect currently happening. My brain says that such a connection isn't likely possible to maintain over a significant distance, let alone from one plane to another. I can conceive of some possible sensible exceptions, but not many.
Also, is anyone else getting mixed up by the fact that Maze doesn't have the Incapacitation Trait?
Sure it is level 8, it's meant to be powerful but... at WORST it fizzles in the extremely rare situation where the opponent is immune to teleportation effects because of... something... otherwise, it completely removes the opponent from the board for all intents and purposes until it spends at least 1 Action at the beginning of its next round and ROLLS a Critical Success. If it gets a normal Success that removes them from combat WHOLESALE for at least 1 full round + 1 action during the second round if it makes back to back saving throws. The creature doesn't get upgraded saving throws no matter what level it is...
Well the enemy also can't be targetedin that time, so unless you've poisoned them or something it mostly just buys you time to buff, position, or take out its allies. Incapacitation spells actually end fights, not prolong them.
Well the enemy also can't be targeted in that time, so unless you've poisoned them or something it mostly just buys you time to buff, position, or take out its allies. Incapacitation spells actually end fights, not prolong them.Also, is anyone else getting mixed up by the fact that Maze doesn't have the Incapacitation Trait?
Sure it is level 8, it's meant to be powerful but... at WORST it fizzles in the extremely rare situation where the opponent is immune to teleportation effects because of... something... otherwise, it completely removes the opponent from the board for all intents and purposes until it spends at least 1 Action at the beginning of its next round and ROLLS a Critical Success. If it gets a normal Success that removes them from combat WHOLESALE for at least 1 full round + 1 action during the second round if it makes back to back saving throws. The creature doesn't get upgraded saving throws no matter what level it is...
I think the reason is because the reason we Incapacitation at all is to protect the boss in a boss fight. Removing the boss from the fight for a couple of rounds still means you have to deal with the boss. So its OK in Paizo's mind.
But we all know a round or two for the party to prepare, recover, deal with some minions, or just run away is very strong.
Yes I am confused as to why it doesn't really have a save, which puts it right up there with those problem wall spells. Even if you make a critical perception check it still costs one action. I guess it its tradition. But overall I'm OK with maze.
I do see it as a problem near level 20 where you might face multiple opponents that can maze the party a few times. But very high level play should be challenging.
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Here is a 100% legal level 1 version that can be used in most dungeons and achieves 90% of the benefits from the Maze spell
Action 1: Stride (outside of the room with BBEG)
Action 2: Close door
Action 3: sustain whatever you want to sustain
Disadvantage: yes - the BBEG could follow you more easily as into a maze - but there is a good chance he is busy fighting your comrades and a surprising number of enemies actually don't pursue.
Advantage 1: you could actually still hear your comrades shouting a 'it's save to come back'
Advantage 2: you actually have 2 actions remaining instead of 1 as Maze also needs to be sustained
This leads to the question - why then isn't this tactic not being done more often? Because in most cases it is a bad tactic. If you target someone you need line of sight.
Also - Second Edition is much more of a collaborative game compared to First Edition. Flank / offering extra HP to hit / being an extra body helps keep you comrades up. A 'tank' in 2e might stay up 3 times as long as a squishy - but that is far from 20 times in 1e.
Actually - there is already a 7th spell that achieves what you want with Maze - Ethereal Jaunt. One level lower and as long as the enemy has no force or abjuration effects it only has positives.
I went through the list of spells with Sustain - the only situation I could truly see to make sense is
Your party is being slaughtered - most (all) of your allies are dead. You cast Revival and Maze away in the hope your raised comrades will finish the job.
One more bit - some comments here did mention Dimension Door. Dimension Door in 2e has the restriction of line of sight - so it seldom works to get you to a safe place - unless in a wide open space to give you a head start (or to dimension door behind a wall of force).
CRB: List of sustained spells
ANTIMAGIC FIELD
CALM EMOTIONS
DANCING LIGHTS
DIVINE AURA
DROP DEAD
DUPLICATE FOE
ENTHRALL
ETHEREAL JAUNT
FIELD OF LIFE
FLAMING SPHERE
FORBIDDING WARD
GATE
GHOST SOUND
HIDEOUS LAUGHTER
HYPNOTIC PATTERN
ILLUSORY CREATURE
IMPLOSION
LOCATE
MAGE HAND
MAZE
MIND PROBE
MIND READING
MISLEAD
PRESTIDIGITATION
PROJECT IMAGE
PRYING EYE
PUNISHING WINDS
RETROCOGNITION
REVIVAL
SCINTILLATING PATTERN
SCRYING
SPIRITUAL GUARDIAN
SPIRITUAL WEAPON
STORM OF VENGEANCE
SUMMON
UNFATHOMABLE SONG
UNSEEN SERVANT
VIBRANT PATTERN
APPEARANCE OF WEALTH
COMPETITIVE EDGE
MAGIC’S VESSEL
PROTECTOR’S SPHERE
WORD OF TRUTH
IMPALING BRIARS
STORM LORD
DREAD AURA
PROTECTIVE WARD
Dim Door doesn't require line of sight if Heightened.
And there are no doors in white rooms! /s
But yeah, self-Mazing while healthy and able to contribute would be one of the more expensive & ineffective tactics out there. Too many better uses or better (often more mundane/cheap) tactics.
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@Thod.
That close the door tactic is made even better if you cast lock on the door !
Then you just need to pour yourself some hot beverage and sit back as you hear the sounds of your party being slaughtered, all from the relative safety of a closed door !
You wouldn't even be able to do that in a Maze !
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So I would treat someone being in a Maze as infinitely far away (you're on a different plane) from anything else you might have cast.
It appears that technically, being on a different plane doesn't sever your ability to control a spell although as a GM I would certainly rule differently (it doesn't make sense to me).
Ignoring that aspect though, I would still rule you couldn't do anything beyond keeping it going. Many spells let you make adjustments as part of sustaining, but I would rule you're lack of awareness of what's happening would prevent it. So, as an example you couldn't move the lights from Dancing lights.
Although that spell definitely requires you to be 120ft away or closer, and so when you get in the Maze you're definitely farther and the spell stops functioning. Though, I think not all spells have a distance requirement like that.
But any spells that do have a distance limitation should end/fail because "on another plane" is either an undefined distance or infinite distance (trying to relate it to math but unsure which it should be).
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Though, if I did allow the sustaining across planes, I'd probably have the player physically leave the room so that they have no idea what is happening. Maybe I'd do that anyway.
As for the "introducing arbitrary restrictions" being "really awful behavior", yes it is arbitrary but if it is consistently applied, I see no problem with it. Most rules could easily be seen as arbitrary. Property runes can't be etched onto staves seems arbitrary. Line of Sight and Line of Effect rules seem arbitrary. Heck, the manipulate trait provoking AoOs seems arbitrary.
The purpose of just about every game is to be played by abiding by a consensus of rules. These systems lay out predetermined points wherein people can quickly have consensus. That doesn't mean that tables that disagree with some of the laid out rules is "really awful behavior". They are merely personalizing their play. Which, I can only imagine, the creators of the game are 100% okay with.
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Claxon's ruling makes sense to me, especially because this was a bad tactic to begin with so it will probably never come up.
But any spells that do have a distance limitation should end/fail because "on another plane" is either an undefined distance or infinite distance (trying to relate it to math but unsure which it should be).Nope. Distance limitations are for moment of casting only and if you need to adjust something if they are explicitly written. Otherwise 'sustained' is a type of a spell's duration ('until the end of your next turn'). Durations don't demand you being in range at all. Prolonging duration with Sustain a spell does not either.
Why would you think distance limitations only apply at the moment of casting? One might think that's generally the case, because the majority of spells aren't sustained thus it only matters at the time of casting.
But the rules (that I could find) only have this to say:
Spells with a range can affect targets, create areas, or make things appear only within that range. Most spell ranges are measured in feet, though some can stretch over miles, reach anywhere on the planet, or go even farther!
There is nothing there to imply the range only applies at the time of casting.
If you cast dancing lights, which has a range of 120ft, at it's full distance and then move away form it it very explicitly winks out.
For another example, let's look at Zero Gravity (next sustained spell I looked at that wasn't centered on or only affected the caster). It has a range of 120ft. It doesn't say what happens, but I'm positive that if you're more than 120ft away, the magic can't continue. It's probably the same effect as dismissing the spell failing to sustain the spell, which will cause it to end on your next turn.
I'm open to you providing some rules text that states the range limitation only applies at casting, but I don't think you're going to find it.
Now, I imagine there are some spells that have a duration after they are last sustained, or that you can use a sustain action to affect the spell but that the spell doesn't end without sustain. Those would persist if you Maze'd away, but you wouldn't be able to control them anymore.
The first example I can think of is Flaming Sphere, which has a duration of sustained and allows you to use sustain to move it. (I realize this is a bad example, I thought flaming sphere had a set duration and sustain allowed you move it, but I have edited my post to reflect its sustained duration).
Let's also not forget that magic requires line of effect. I would say line of effect is broken when not on the same plane (you can't draw a line from one plane to other).
Edit: I guess my retort to the assertion that "I'm introducing arbitrary restrictions" is that range and targeting rules apply at all times (as far as I'm aware) and so if you're out of range then you cannot sustain the spell. To me that's the opposite of arbitrary. Barring rules that I'm unware of that say targeting and range rules don't apply, I fail to understand how you could arrive at another conclusion.
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It's magic. Just invent a sense which is acceptable to you. But introducing arbitrary restrictions is really awful behaviour for a GM.
Following RAW isn't an arbitrary restriction
Targets
Some spells allow you to target a creature, an object, or something that fits a more specific category. The target must be within the spell’s range, and you must be able to see it (or otherwise perceive it with a precise sense) to target it normally.
Sustain doesn't has the range restriction - but targeting does !! So you can't target from another plane if that planes distance is > the spell range.
Most damage dealing spells either target or are AoE and that only works if the enemy can't move out of the area while you are on another plane.How you perceive it is another question - but if you fail on range already then it becomes moot - you can not target.
A spiritual weapon would just hover until you are back. Not sure which damage dealing spell is without a target. There is a reason I mentioned Revival after most of your comrades are down as one of the few true sensible uses of getting away in a Maze and sustain it from safety.
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Why would you think distance limitations only apply at the moment of casting? One might think that's generally the case, because the majority of spells aren't sustained thus it only matters at the time of casting.But the rules (that I could find) only have this to say:
Spells with a range can affect targets, create areas, or make things appear only within that range. Most spell ranges are measured in feet, though some can stretch over miles, reach anywhere on the planet, or go even farther!There is nothing there to imply the range only applies at the time of casting.
Seems it took me too long to write my reply. In regard to winking out if you are too far away. There are arguments in favor and against it I guess.
There is precedent that if some spell gets countered (light while overlapping with a higher level darkness) - that it will be back after darkness expires. This is time - not distance (and I would have to look where the exact example is) - but there is an argument that it could just no longer move / retarget.
Another example would be Unseen Servant. It has range 60 feet and mages often make them permanent - a common staple. But surely they don't wink out of existence because the mage moved away > 60 feet.
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Permanent Unseen Servant is done through the Unseen Custodian ritual that is site bound though.
https://pf2.d20pfsrd.com/ritual/unseen-custodians/
I would say that Unseen Servant would wink out or something (temporarily) if at some point it was more than 60ft away from the caster. Even it permanent.
The real question is how exactly does that work?
Does it wink out until you move back into range of it's last position?
Does it automatically get moved to stay at maximum range?
It's not clear what happens.
But what I strongly believe in is that you can't continue using it normally beyond the range limitations of the spell. Otherwise, the range limitation isn't terribly meaningful.
Unseen Servant has a range of 60ft, and a fly speed of 30ft.
It can in one turn, speed 3 turns moving and fly out of the range limit. Why even bother with the range limit on something like this? It doesn't have obvious combat applications so it's unlikely to be used in a situation where that 60ft limit only matters at the time of summoning.
To me there is simply no logical reason to expect that range or targeting rules only apply at casting, they must apply during the whole course of the spell. Although the rules fail to say what happens if you end up in a situation where the rules are violated.
The two most reasonable things IMO are:
1) The effect maintains it's last position doing nothing until you're in range. If you're out of range and can't sustain it then the effect ends as you didn't sustain it.
2) The effect winks out, but if you can get back in range it returns and you can sustain it.
The difference is that some ongoing effects might have otherwise caused damage if they didn't wink out.
I think I lean toward it staying it the last position doing nothing, and being unable to sustain unless in range.
this was a bad tactic to begin with so it will probably never come up.But getting out of range or to another plane while sustaining will definitely come up. And such ruling hurts casters very much. Which they definitely don't need.
Sorry I missed this earlier. You're absolutely right that being out of a spells range will definitely come up. It's obvious what happens on a instantaneous spell if you attempt to cast beyond its range, it simply doesn't work. The rules don't explicitly state the rules still apply on sustained duration spells, but I don't think they need to.
You would need something saying the normal rules don't apply, not something saying all the normal rules still apply (although reminders like that can be helpful to clarify).
In any event, my intention is not to specifically hurt casters but to have an accurate parsing of the rules based on my ability to read and understand them. I haven't found any reason to believe rules regarding range, targeting, and line of effect, don't apply because a spell is sustained.
I certainly wouldn't cause a summon to wink out of existence if it goes further than 30 feet from the caster. But there's a bit of a difference between that and sustaining from another plane of existence. Don't think it would ever come up, but I wouldn't fault a GM for ruling the spell is gone.
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There is nothing there to imply the range only applies at the time of casting.
This is an interesting rules point.
From what I can tell about the rules range is applied at the time of casting, and probably not when you sustain. There is some wording indicating timing When creating an effect and that range is only mentioned in targeting, but I agree its not totally definitive.
A few spells like Dancing Lights have extra explicit range restrictions.
So I would play that you can sustain most spells while in a Maze, including summon spells and Spiritual Weapon, but targetting would be impossible. With Spiritual Weapon I'd allow you to keep attacking in the same square withyour opponent hidden from you but thats it. Summoned monsters would happily keep attacking your enemies as long as who was who was obvious.
Why would you think distance limitations only apply at the moment of casting? One might think that's generally the case, because the majority of spells aren't sustained thus it only matters at the time of casting.But the rules (that I could find) only have this to say:
Spells with a range can affect targets, create areas, or make things appear only within that range. Most spell ranges are measured in feet, though some can stretch over miles, reach anywhere on the planet, or go even farther!There is nothing there to imply the range only applies at the time of casting.
It's the default. Obviously. You need the rules to explicitly say 'spell effects wink out of existence when you are out of casting range' to even consider it. Try to find this anywhere as a general rule (and not for specific spells, which I already mentioned above). It's also so overwhelmlingly too terrible to be true that I'm baffled.
Everything else you are saying is based on your ultimately wrong interpretation of basic rules.
Just for fun, if all spells just stop outside their casting range, are all long-term curses useless? You can't buff your teammates for solo missions? They can only Fly when you touch them?! :-D All summons work as if everything 30 ft from you were in Antimagic field? Enemies fleeing from Fear just stop being afraid and fleeing 30 ft from you? Man, that's just so completely ridiculous...
Please back up your assertions with something from the rules text and quit insulting me.
Well, to clarify I'm only talking about spells which have a duration of sustained.
Spells that persist without being sustained I would agree no longer concern themselves with things like targeting, range, or line of effect (although the rules don't actually make this clear either).
As to why I think the range, area, and target rules apply during a sustained spell is because you're still manipulating the spell.
Range, Area, and Targets This entry lists the range of the spell, the area it affects, and the targets it can affect, if any. If none of these entries are present, the spell affects only the caster.
To me it doesn't make sense if the magic normally requires you to be within X feet away when you cast it (and barring some clarification I haven't seen) why should you be able to manipulate the spell from further away then when you cast it.
For example, Wall of Fire is a spell with 120ft range, has a duration of 1 minute, and per the text makes a 5ft thick wall of flame up to 60ft long and 10ft high. Once you cast this you can go as far away as you like because there is no further interaction between the spell caster and the spell.
But if you're going to interact with the spell further, why should you be allowed to ignore the range requirements? I guess I will agree there are no rules that strongly support one interpretation or the other.
I hardly think you exaggeration is correct though. It doesn't break all spells, but it does mean spells you're interacting with still require you to meet the conditions to use it.
As another example, Beastmaster Trance. It lists a range of 1 mi. You're suggestion would be that you have to cast the spell while your animal companion is within 1 mile, and then they could move as far away as they want and the spell functions fine.
My opinion is they have to stay within that range or else it ceases to function, which is why the higher levels of the spell are extremely beneficial because they extend that range.
You're interpretation would mean (let's ignore if this scenario would be beneficial) that you could cast Beastmaster Trance with your animal companion next to you, have your friend teleport your animal companion into the enemy base on the other side of the planet (you're friend would up there too which is why it's not beneficial) and you sustain the link to observe what's happening there. To me that very much flys in the face of the rules, and goes against what the higher level version of the spell offer as part of their package.
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I think I've changed my mind about this. There must be a magical connection from the point in space of the target of the maze and the extradimensional space that is the maze. If that is the case, there is no reason to believe that other magics could not piggy back on that connection.
The inherent limitation on sustaining while inside if the maze is that you have no ability to target anything as you have lost both line of sight and line of effect. With both of those lost, a majority of sustained spells lose their usefulness, or cannot really even be used.
Spiritual Weapon says that you direct it every time you sustain. Sure, you can still sustain it, but it doesn't attack without being directed. Summon spells do state that the summon can use the granted action to act of its own volition.
I think it'll end up being a self correcting problem. It may seem very powerful at first, but when you get into the mechanics, it doesn't really seem to be all that good except in specific situations. And, if it does get horribly abused, as a GM you have the power to "Nope" it.