Troy Malovich's page

Gregor's brow is deeply furrowed as Lia's mother hands him the letter from her sister, "Why would an elven woman seek me out? I know none, never treated with any, nor owe them anything?" He scowls with a suspicious eye at the letter, turning it over as if there were a viper hidden within.

He first inspects the envelope with a discerning eye, ensuring there are no signs of magic present, indicating any sort of trap or illusion. He lags behind slightly as he finally opens and reads it. "HA! How stupid you think I am, to set such an obvious trap?" He tears the letter in half, crumples each piece, and tosses them to the ground.

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Back to the topic at hand.

Gregor shakes his head, "More elves, bah. I can do without the lot of them. It might be worthwhile to ensure they are not up to ill will."

Okay, without jumping through hoops to change plans, you can go about it a different way. Stay true to what you agreed to with him, but..

Have the driver drive him somewhere in the open outside the city (I imagine he would drive at day while the vamp slept), then do circles for most of the day. You guys can meet him at said place and ambush the vamp where he has no safety nets and you've had some sleep.

Brennan, aren't your Sneak Attacks d8's with daggers?

Yes, Yodi, your aid comes after Ciy's turn so she won't get the benefit this round.

Mulluq offers a little insight to Kira, "There does not appear to be any guilty party among those assembled from what I am able to sense. If the entire force were formed up, I could try to get a sense of all of them." Mulluq eyes Krimmos. His attitude just seems to grate on the teifling, and he thinks there may be something not quite right with him.

Sense Motive (Hunch DC 20) on Krimmos 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (7) + 6 = 13

Mulluq is wary of Krimmos, but Troy thinks he's a Red Herring. Too bad I am Mulluq for these exchanges. ;)

Tasha backs into the doorway, arrow still nocked and aimed at the opposite door. If any backup arrives from the commotion, they're in for a nasty surprise. Dawnilea dances a vicious circle, as her blades flash out in the glow of the light pebble. Her right hand blade cuts a sharp gash across the swinging arm of the man on the upper bunk, and her left hand stabs hard into the stomach of the one on the lower bunk. The upper man looks worse for wear, but he's still barely holding on.

Tracking your bite Krizta, but will shift it to the top bunk when your turn comes around. Or if it has a use/day limit, you can forgo it if he gets dropped beforehand.

-----------To go this round-----------
Round 2:
Bardigan - 1 damage, 1 Chr damage, Moves to L24, knocks out Thug 2
Dwarf/O23 - 15 damage, 19 NL, Unconscious
Krizta - Moves to L22, ready attack, ready hits Thug 4
Thug 4/M24 - 10 damage, Prone, Disabled, Draw light mace, miss Dawnilea
Ganner - Move to L23, miss Thug 3
Thug 2/K24 - 14 NL damage, Unconscious
Thug 3/M23 - 11 damage, Dying, Draw light mace, miss Dawnilea
Thug 1/K23 - 10 NL, Unconscious

-----------Went this round-----------
(R) Tasha - 1 Dex damage, Readied 5’ to K21, ready attack.
Dawnilea - Hits Thug 4 and Thug 3

Ciyradyl has 3 wands. Mage Armor, Shield, and Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon. With Mage Armor and Shield on, she has a 24 AC and can heal herself with the wand, or her spell during the fight. She just has to keep its attention.

Brennan has the most damage potential with two weapons and d8 sneak attacks, so she will need to keep the focus off him somehow and provide flank.

Sadly, most of Yodi and Omen's spells are mental or small chunks that will have a hard time getting past its defenses. Maybe, if you want to open the doors, you can see if Omen's Mage Hand or Unseen Servant can do so. Maybe Yodi just focus on keeping Brennan or Ciy healed during the exchange.

That's just combat suggestions. Unless you guys can think of a way to get past it without fighting.

EDIT: I will run her through the last half of this (as it is the last part of the book, then look at recruiting 3 more for the next book. I like to have 5-6 players for just such occasions as the dropping of players allowing the party to keep going.

Mulluq takes no part in any celebrations, spending the night in both maintaining his weapons and armor, as well as time in silent prayer. With the excitement of the morning, he simply rises calmly, before turning straight into a kneeling position.

He begins softly weeping as he prays, "Forgive me, oh great Inheritor, my Goddess, Light of the Sword, for standing before your grace with my most unholy of visages. You deem me worthy of witnessing your glory, yet I stood before you cloaked in the rags of demonhood. I will rend the life from every demon that crosses my path that I may make up for the failures of my existence in your most magnificent of presences. Please grant me the power to lay low before you my atrocious kin, and I vow to one day be worthy of your glance."

Okay, who is carrying the captive unconscious pest that was going to be kept for study?

Zea scrunches her nose as Bardigan just rushes the process amid exploding bodies and foul stench. Even with Krizta's prestidigitation, the odor seems to have that hint of being stuck to the back of his nose so that he can almost taste it, forcing him to spit periodically to no avail. She bids them farewell, with another "Thank you." and "Be careful of the Dottari patrols." To Bardigan specifically she steps close as she departs to tell him, "If you ever need anything from the Nursery, come find me." With that the group departs for the Sallix Salt Works.

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I'm going to be nice and just roll stealth for you all, as I've hinted it enough, and surely at least one of your group would know better than to walk so openly after curfew.

Though there are a few stumbles along the path, as Tasha is seemingly lost in thought to the point that she keeps misstepping, the group manages to avoid catching sign of any patrols to make it unmolested to the destination. Before too long the group arrives at the Salt Works previously scouted by half the group earlier. As described by the others, the Salt Works isn't much more than a squat rectangular structure built around a low stone dome. The front of the building is dominated by a set of double doors, and around back there is a small outbuilding connected to the whole by a covered patio. Two doors face each other from the outbuilding to the main structure. There remains no sign of guards posted outside.

It was the windows update that did me in. Problem I had is a bad habit of not keeping a backup and not finding my recovery disk for the longest time. I'm back now, so back to my regular speedy rate of once or twice a week ;)

My computer took a dump this week, been working on getting it back.

In response to Bardigan's 'sneaky devil' comment, this scene fits (just from 1:20 to 2:00, as I couldn't find a good shorter clip of it).

Zea looks at Bardigan with big moon eyes, dull yellow with their odd horizontally-aligned hourglass pupils, as he offers to help with finishing off the foul beasts. She pulls them out of the sack, and offers one of them back to the group to study. With enough consideration to step off around a wagon so Tasha doesn't have to see, given her qualms about killing them off, Zea prepares to make quick work of them.

With at least Bardigan by her side, offering to help as he did, she seems uncertain at first how to do it. She finally settles on the idea that it will be quicker and cleaner to just break their tiny necks with a simple twist. She looks to his gratefully, and offers, "You guys have done more for us than you know already, but it's already a couple hours past curfew. If you go running off to whatever else you have in mind, just be careful," she looks genuinely concerned for them, or Bardigan at least, "The Dottari patrols are harder to avoid outside the Nursery."

There are 7 to kill. Is anyone else helping, or just Bardigan?

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it before, and it's in the city stats on the campaign tab, but Thrune implemented a 9 pm to 6 am curfew very early on. It is close to 11 pm right now. Not saying do/do not go, just that you would all know to be careful.

Ever get that feeling in a game like the DM sees the TPK coming and doesn't really want to roll the dice? :-)

I think survivors might need to bolt if she's not out next round.

Don't worry, I'm never plagued by crises of conscience such as these. :)

The dice will do what they do, and as players, when we choose for our characters to live by the dice, we choose to let them die by them.

A few of you were in my Shattered Star. Wasn't it that one where someone decided to just walk out the illusioned opening and fall like 120' into the water?

Feldivar is running out of options, but decides that he may be able to help those that still have a few left to do more. Taking a couple steps forward, he casts a spell, and everyone in the group feels almost as if time has slowed. Their actions and movements happen at an incredible pace, allowing them to do more with what time they have.

In order to hit Rutter where he was and still include yourself, you needed to move two squares forward, so I did that for you.

Rutter decides that now is the time to go for broke. He has no way out now but through the twisted form that is the Daughter of Urgathoa. Using the advantage of his heightened speed and Vyshael on the other side, he steps up and manages to lay into with three quick strikes, one of which only barely got through due to his hastened pace. In his desperate move, Rutter managed to do almost as much of an assault as she had already received.

Seriously, the 18 wouldn't have hit without the haste and flank, and the 20 without one of the two.

The thing turns with eyes burning a deep red of rage, ready to rid herself of this bothersome halfling. It was the opening Raliscar needed, and with a word of admonition, he fires into her side. the bolt pierces deep enough that the shot is the final nail in a coffin that should have already been closed. She screeches in violent shock, as the body begins to bubble and churn away into little more than a fetid pool of green ichor. Laying within is the dead pale lady that she was before the transformation.

So, it only took the one shot Raliscar.

As she melts away, Neva moves to press the wand to Vyshael, before any more changes can occur and it's too late to help him.

Combat Over, just showing the tracker for this last round.

-----------To go this round-----------
Round 9:
DoU/F8-G9 (5’ up) - 120 damage, Destroyed
Vyshael - 27 damage, Enlarged, Hasted, Hit Daughter

-----------Went this round-----------
Feldivarxon - Hasted, Move to G5, casts Haste
Rutter - 20 damage, Hasted , Move to D10, hit Daughter
Raliscar - 15 damage, Hasted, 5’ to F6, miss Daughter
Neva - 2 damage, Hasted, Move to G7, use wand on Vyshael

So, there's more than a few things that need to be considered in this discussion and where we stand.

First, I will start off by reminding everyone that Gilda and Gregor are CN and LN, respectively. To remain an alignment that walks the line, it means we as characters toe the line of evil just as closely as we toe the line of good. Very early, GM Zek even said that I might slip to LG if I kept on the path I was walking. The player's guide itself even suggests that LG would be the hardest alignment to bring to bear in this particular campaign.

That brings me to my next point.

Alignment in PF is a palpable force. It is not simply the debate of morals and ethics in our world, it is something that can be seen, felt, and quantified in the world these characters live in. Di said it herself in regards to tieflings, the imp, and in a sense with Nox. That's where we touch on the origin of our debate.

Asmodeans are not simply "misguided and exploited mooks". Gregor has no desire to fight the Dottari or Hellknights, as they are literally just doing their actual job. The CCG are a mixed bag, as it depends on how much delight they derive from getting to enact the will of Thrune (like enjoying the doghousing or potentially letting the dogs tear the girl apart). Asmodeans, however, are neither "misguided" nor "exploited". They are actively, voluntarily, choosing to follow and worship a being clearly known for his evil, in a world where evil is unquestionably measurable. They spend their life and devotion empowering a being of evil. They are "proper monsters" in a world of quantifiable evil. If they are "misguided and exploited", then so was Nox, she just had more success in establishing a connection.

Evil in PF is not just not doing the Good thing. Evil is active, it is intentional, it is pursued wickedness. Evil beings delight in being and doing evil. It doesn't just happen. Neutral just happens. It is the absence or presence of good/evil acts in equal measure. At the very best, any given Asmodean can be neutral, but even still they have to walk the thin line of evil if they want to actually succeed as a powerful Asmodean.

Gregor is not advocating that we sneak into their rooms while they sleep, after a day of sweeping temple floors, and assassinate them. He's suggesting they finalize the fight they had with them, no differently than walking through a battlefield and spearing the dying after a large skirmish between two medieval armies (as that is the philosophical era our PC's live in). The Asmodeans were just as culpable in killing the Irorans as Nox herself was. Gregor was sympathetic to Azvernathi, more so than even Di it seems, because he gave up. He voluntarily stopped fighting us, regardless of his reasoning, he had and made the choice to end his opposition of us. An enemy, however, that chooses to fight to the death has already accepted that death is the end result of losing said fight.

We have to break eggs, we have to do some dirty deeds to overthrow the corrupt government and its equally corrupted advocates/forces, and I fully understand (as a player and as well as knowing Di is LG) that it can and will be hard for Di. Gregor, however, does not understand how a Hellknight, an organization that is the near embodiment of the idea of performing necessary evils for the greater (read: regimented) whole (not greater 'good', even), can balk at delivering the killing blow to her enemies.

The other issue we run into, is how much of the debate is based entirely off the rules mechanics of death/dying in the game. If we deal lethal damage, large enough that we actually hit their -Con score, all is well with killing our enemies. If we do enough damage to drop them to -hp, but not dead, all is well with leaving them to die by simply bleeding out (as we haven't stopped to stabilize any enemy unless we wanted to talk to/interrogate them). But, if we knock them unconscious (via sleep/NL), suddenly, them dying is an issue. Why did we not take issue with letting them bleed out? Is leaving them to bleed out, where they may later possibly die of suffering from hunger, thirst, or being eaten alive by carrion eaters because they stabilized on their own suddenly a better option? Are we better aligned because we ourselves did not actively (but passively) force them to suffer the hunger, thirst, eaten alive condition?

Heck, the only reason we fought with some degree of NL/Sleep was either because Gregor pushed that it would break the agreement they had with Yilliv (which Di didn't even agree with pulling punches) or crowd control while facing a large number of enemies. If Gilda didn't have sleep, we would have killed them all then and there. She sleeps them and suddenly they are no longer enemies or combatants. It's one thing if we had plans to deliver them to proper justice, via trail, imprisonment, rehabilitation (if they truly are "misguided and exploited") or making them pay for their crimes/deeds in some manner. No, we are just leaving them here. Out of sight out of mind. We are just walking away to let them continue doing Evil deeds on behalf of an Evil deity, on the side of an Evil government.

Yes, we can spread the word of our actions and deeds as good folk, but what we don't have is "evidence" to share with the people. We have our word in flyers. Are we going to do tours of the Fantasmagorium for the people to show them our "evidence"? Or is it still just our word against Thrunes? Even worse, the ones that live can potentially actively refute our "evidence" merely by surviving to bring word back of what "happened", supported by the legal authority of Thrune. The only evidence we can provide for the public and to change the public opinion is what we actually show them in deeds they can witness. Solving the tooth fairy murders, saving Zea from a doghousing, maybe even open opposition to Thrune's forces. What happened here in the Fantasmagorium is no "evidence" for either side, merely hearsay.

Normally, I would allow treating it as such, but the rules for aid another on skills say "you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone."

The conditions of following their quarry are less than favorable, and it's all Dawnilea can do to find any markings left behind, but she finds something that can only belong to the little fey creatures. There is a little periodic droplet of sparkling white dust that just manages to catch the torchlight. The smell of it is sickly and pungent, but has a splatter pattern of a bleeding prey.

Dawnilea's Tracking 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (12) + 8 = 20

So, the base DC was 26 (flying diminutives of more than 3), but because 2 of the 4 were injured, and their blood is glittery and white, I reduced it by 10.

Dawnilea is able to follow the trail for a good distance, but not too far given you guys began your ambush near the middle of the strikes. The path leads you just up a darker thin street.

Feldivar finally fights off the compulsion to kneel and rises proudly. With a word of snark toward their enemy, the little gnome showers her in a burst of sparkling golden glitter. Despite it coating her heavily, she merely turns to look at the gnome in annoyance, clearly showing that he did not blind her with it.

Will save 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (19) + 14 = 33

His actions unknown to the rest of his allies in his invisible state, Rutter balances his stance atop the head of the statue, before he performs a perfect leap across the gap between the statue and the woman standing in the air. She looks aghast at the notion of the flying halfling having just appeared as he drags a kukri down the back of her thigh, but more so as she feels the burn of something else. You see her blanch slightly, her eyes looking wan as a rash begin to form along her face and she coughs. The symptoms of blood veil begin to spread over her.

Rutter, you need to make a DC 15 Acrobatics check or take 1d6 ⇒ 3 falling damage and fall prone.
Fort save 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (8) + 13 = 21, 1d3 ⇒ 2 Con damage, 1d3 ⇒ 1 Dex damage

The minor distraction was enough for the large battleshaper to step up with his curling horns and slam them into her, but she caught the movement early enough to keep them from being too destructive. She takes the hit staunchly, at first, but in her weakened state from the disease, she stumbles and falls prone, albeit floating, onto the airy surface she stands on. She appears to be unconscious.

Fort save 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (2) + 12 = 14

Both Raliscar and Neva fire at the prone, floating, and unconscious woman, but even in her state, their bolts cannot find gaps in her metal and magical defenses.

-----------To go this round-----------
Round 6:
Feldivarxon - Stands, casts Glitterdust on enemy
Rutter - 2 damage, Jumped and hit Enemy
Vyshael - Enlarged 5’ to I12/J13, gored enemy
Raliscar - Fires twice, misses
Neva - 2 damage, Miss enemy, reload crossbow
Enemy/G13 (20’ up) - 75 damage, 2 Con dmg, 8 Dex damage, Glittering, Unarmed, Unconscious

Rutter, if you hadn't dipped your blade, she would have saved against Vyshael's spell, and still be up.

Kira will act as posted, especially if the AoOs are out of the way!

You're welcome. ;)

Is Dawnilea waiting for an answer before acting? Was anyone going to answer her?

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Back at the Coffeehouse

As much as the Silver Ravens would hate for it to be the case, word to those that know how to look for it has led them to the rumor of a connection to the Longroads Coffeehouse. It is this rumor that has led the three strangers to be seated unaware of each others' intentions for being present. Though any one of the three may have spent more than a single day seeking out whatever lead found them there. It's not long on this particular day, that the rumors may have found other ears as well.

The door flies open with little care, as three stride in with both purpose and an eye for suspicious activity. The lead Dottari speaks up, "Who is the proprietor of this establishment?"

Laria, moves out from behind the counter, where she was instructing one of her bakers on the best method for kneading. She wipes her dough and flour dusted hands on her apron, as she approaches the men. "I am. Is there something wrong?"

The man draws a letter from his belt, showing it to Laria, who only gets brief look at it before he returns it to his belt. "We have received word that there is suspicious activity and unsavory practices taking place at this establishment. We are going to have to search the premises."

Laria tries to maintain a stone-faced expression, belying as little as possible about her feelings over the demand. "Sure. Have a look around. Would any of you like a nice hot coffee while you work?"

The Dottari waves off the offer, right as one of the others looked to accept it before looking defeated for the refusal of the other. The lead man then signals to areas about the serving room, directing the team in where to look. In typical Dottari fashion, the search does not begin with a care for maintaining the state of the establishment before they entered.

Decided to include a quick opportunity for the other three to post at least something toward being included in the story.

Stanley nods in eager agreement, but makes no move to turn the thing. He is fully aware that his physical efforts are much less likely to help than any of the others. He asks Adoven, "If someone used this before us, would they not be in the orange way, and not the green? Though there was a light in the green, the sarcophagus was pointed at orange, and not likely to be turned after use."

Okay, I've prepared for this (somewhat by running my own Hell's Rebels campaign), and used a write up made by one of my players (Thanks Odea).

The question of focus my players asked was "Can we change it?" and I couldn't find anything that said it was a changeable decision. I told them they get to change it at the start of each new book of the AP. Mainly because starting out Secrecy will be most important, but switch to loyalty in the middle and maybe to security by the end when we are big enough to field a full-blown rebellion.

Though I feel IC reasons for taking which role are relevant, the officer roles are vague enough that who holds which for IC reasons work well enough with the crunch.

Now onto who takes what role (CRUNCH version as templated by Odea):

Hell's Rebels Player's Guide wrote:
...the rebellion doesn’t need all six of these roles to be filled. You can have multiple identical officers, but note that with the exception of the Recruiter, the bonuses granted by officers don’t stack, so it’s best if each character takes on a different officer role.

Not sure which (if any) NPCs we can use in various positions nor whether we get to know what their relevant stats are. Thus: each position with the bonus provided by the character listed (if it is known).

Demagogue: The officer adds his or her CON or CHA modifier to the rebellion’s Loyalty check.
Didiana +3
Evander +1
Gilda +2
Gregor +2
Lia +2
Matiscio +2

Partisan: The officer adds his or her STR or WIS modifier to the rebellion’s Security check.
Didiana +1
Evander +0
Gilda +4
Gregor +1
Lia +0
Matiscio +3

Sentinel: The officer grants a +1 bonus to the rebellion’s two secondary Organization checks, and can aid during all Organization checks attempted to resolve one event during the Event phase. The Sentinel can add her CON or CHA modifier to a Loyalty check, her STR or WIS Modifier to a Security check, or her DEX or INT modifier to a Secrecy check made during this event’s resolution.
Didiana......Loyalty:.....+3.....Security:.....+1.....Secrecy:.....+1
Evander......Loyalty:.....+1.....Security:.....+0.....Secrecy:.....+3
Gilda........Loyalty:.....+2.....Security:.....+4.....Secrecy:.....+1
Gregor.......Loyalty:.....+2.....Security:.....+1.....Secrecy:.....+3
Lia..........Loyalty:.....+2.....Security:.....+0.....Secrecy:.....+3
Matiscio.....Loyalty:.....+2.....Security:.....+3.....Secrecy:.....+2

Spymaster: The officer adds his or her DEX or INT modifier to the rebellion’s Secrecy check.
Didiana +1
Evander +3
Gilda +1
Gregor +3
Lia +3
Matiscio +2

The next two are slightly different in their bonus, one just needs to have ANYONE so that we get a bonus action (i.e. unless someone REALLY wants to be the Strategist, we can just hand that to an NPC).

The other (recruiter) wants to have the highest "level" officer and to have as many officers as possible because it grants a stacking bonus based on level (I assume this would be Hit Dice for NPCs). Likely this will need to be filled by a player character starting around level 3 or 4 (just a guess) because we won't have super-cool NPCs with tons of HD to fill it.

Recruiter: The number of supporters recruited during the Upkeep phase on a successful Organization check is increased by the officer’s character level. This bonus stacks with that provided by other recruiters.
Didiana +2
Evander +2
Gilda +2
Gregor +2
Lia +2
Matiscio +2

Strategist: The officer grants the Silver Ravens a bonus rebellion action during the Activity phase. Any Organization check made to resolve the effects of this bonus action gain a +2 bonus on the check.
Didiana Bonus Action at +2
Evander Bonus Action at +2
Gilda Bonus Action at +2
Gregor Bonus Action at +2
Lia Bonus Action at +2
Matiscio Bonus Action at +2

TL;DR: My recommendations based purely on known numbers (i.e. unless a usable NPC has better stats):
Demagogue: Didiana (1st) +3 Loyalty
Partisan: Gilda (1st) +4 Security
Sentinel: Matiscio (1st) +2 Loy/+3 Secu/+2 Secr on ONE event; +1 to non-focused checks
Spymaster: Evander (Tied for 1st) +3 Secrecy
Recruiter: Lia +2 Supporters
Strategist: Gregor Bonus Action at +2

Going to be a few cut scenes addressing a lot of dialogue that I wasn't able to get to yesterday.

Gregor merely steels his anger, and stares blankly at some of the responses. He could be expected to take little of what the two 'artists' had for him in the way of their own reprimands, and can almost appreciate Mrs. Grabapple's focus on recovery over biting back. It was Matiscio's words though that helped him find a calm center amidst the fading adrenaline that had his nerves on edge. Even offering an acquiescence "You are right, Mr. Tartaluna, I should not focus so much on what could have been. I can't help but continue to worry about what could still come to pass from the decision." There is a feeling of calm and respect toward the big man and his peaceful demeanor.

I feel like Matiscio and Gregor will be like the two from Mulan, where I get riled up and he's the big guy that calms me down.

It was when Didiana spoke, though, that his eyes grew wide in shock, cocking his head slightly toward her as if not hearing correctly. Out of professional respect for the woman, he neither interrupts, nor raises his voice. He responds, hands folded in front of one another before him in the relaxed position he had at the first meeting "I hope, as deliverer of this city's justice, that you are aware that you are taking liberties with the truth? Or are you merely being flippant to make your point? I drew first blood. My arrow was the first injury they received, and your magic was equally so if not more effective. Do not even pretend that our two actions alone did not prove to be almost as effective as Mr. Tartaluna's first few attacks, let alone call what we did useless." he holds up an appeasing hand toward Matiscio, so as to show that he was not denigrating the man's success as much as lifting their's up in comparison. "He was not alone in damaging this foe. You are as effective with your mace as I am with my sword, but I was led to believe that we had a solid three-man front line, and took my role as intended."

He puts his hands forward, trying to pause any retort or argument while he continues, "I admit I may have been hasty in my words, and should speak with you as I would my broth... my 'former' brothers in arms. I have been on edge this entire day, and would be worried if all of you did not share my level of concern for what we are doing. As it is outright treason, and punished quite harshly, not to mention the stain it will put on our families and their name." This last he punctuates directly at Lia, as the most to lose beyond just herself.

He turns to Evander, in explanation, not anger "I was fully aware of what the group of you were intending, that's why I moved in front, much the same way someone would step in front of their ally's weapon to prevent them from using it on an innocent. I did not have time to discuss at length all the concerns I had with such an action, and chose instead to try and return to the line where it was left empty," he lifts a single eyebrow, "to take the brunt of the attacks, while switching tactics, without yet resorting to extremes."

He turns back to Didiana specifically, "My greatest concern, Armiger Drost, is that very few of us exhausted our options before turning to the final decision. You used one spell, but did not pull your weapon." Turning to the rest of the group he asks "Did anyone switch weapons? What were we all using, arrows, rapiers, fists?" He looks at Gilda while listing, but doesn't bother mentioning her crossbow. "I came back with my sword to do just that. If devils will be our foe, in facing the Lord-Mayor, we need to know what hurts them and be prepared for it, but we won't know unless we try all our options? The Half..." He bites his tongue quickly to correct himself, "Lady carries a club, Mr. Tartaluna his rather unique weapons and the silver dagger, you and Mr. Forrell each have maces, Mrs. Grabapple..." He looks her over, certain he saw one before, pointing gladly when he sees it, "carries what looks like... an iron dagger?" The last a question, as he's uncertain of the material, or why she would have that over good steel.

"I will give my life to this cause, as I swore in my oath, but I will not do so without fighting to my last breath first, nor will I risk allies or innocents if my sacrifice alone will be enough." He states this, as if it punctuates the entirety of what he was trying to convey all along.

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The writing on the walls.

Looking at the text along the walls, he answers, even though it was not directed at him specifically. "I cannot say for certain, but the way it reads, it just may be how the devils got down here in the first place. Though, I didn't think writing it would be enough, I thought spells were a little more involved than that."

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The chests

Gregor begins rummaging in his pack to once more draw out the set of picks he carries, lifting an eyebrow, shaking his head, and shrugging when Rexus mentions the figurines. The name means nothing to him, but he does understand that finding them down here is a sign, and the locked chest may be the answer.

As he returns to pulling his tools, he hears the voices above, then goes stiff and stark white. His eyes wide open, stare straight ahead. He flings his backpack back on, and speaks quickly and quietly, "We must go. Now. I can't let him catch me here, not like this." He grabs the chest with the weapons and armor, the one that seems the most useful in his eyes, and looks around frantically for the best means of escape.

GM, could you put a circle (or two) on the map showing roughly where the sinkhole is in regards to above and down here?

"We have very few options. If they are in the livery above, or have a clear view, we can't get out that way. We could lock the gate we came in, and try to hide in the rat room by holding the trapdoor shut until they go. Or hide behind the big slaughterhouse tables in the large room, and hope they are not thorough in looking the place over. I can't face him and expect that any lie we tell will get us out of this." The panic is evident in Gregor. Nothing they have faced so far has proven to even the slightest effect on him as hearing that name has.

Gregor, part of the way through his dash to stand on the front lines, turns his head and lifts an eyebrow at Evander's call. Seeing the column finally begin to give way, he twists to throw his arm up, forgetting that he had his bow instead of his shield. Small chunks of rock and the spray of filthy water each strike his left flank. As the cascade of rubble and sprayed filth ceases its crash against the edge of the cistern, he stands with an incredulous look to the others, as he stands upright shaking his head to dislodge a small cloud of dust from his short hair. "That... was..." His words and attention are cut off by the following sight of the wagon tumbling into the newly created hole in the ceiling above. This time he just turns his back, closing his eyes, and slightly tensing as it finally crashes down.

He takes a deep breath through his nose, teeth clenched so hard his jaw flexes from the effort. "That.. was.. totally irresponsible! What would possess any of you to deem that a worthy risk?" He points to the ceiling and newly-formed sinkhole with the tip of his sword, "Did you even bother to think of what lie directly above? Did you consider what hapless citizen may have fallen in and gotten hurt, or even worse died? That doesn't even begin to touch upon the risk to us by bringing down an old support, that could have potentially brought the entire street or building above crashing down."

He turns and looks to where the devils were, "And for what? To defeat a few devils that were proving to be more of a nuisance than anything? Lady Aulamaxa was badly injured, yes, but no more so than she was at the protest, and Mrs. Grabapple has healing magics. Did you even consider that what we came here looking for could possibly be buried under all the rubble that was just caused? Not to mention, it's kind of hard to remain secretive about our activities when we are tearing apart buildings from hidden places beneath them."

Turning on Evander, he admonishes "As I come forward to hold the line after two of you back off of it, what do I get as a word of warning, beyond 'Gregor, move!' as if I was some obstacle? How about 'Lookout', or 'Be careful', or 'Say any final prayers, because we are about to pull the building down on everyone's heads, regardless of the great personal risk to all of our lives'?"

He takes a deep breath, trying to find a calm, "Yes, we defeated the foe, but I don't feel this extreme act was warranted in doing so. They were getting hurt, albeit slowly, but it was progress. We were not in such desperate straits that we had to throw all caution and concern for others out the window in some last ditch 'Hail Iomedae' suicide charge into the Worldwound. We have got to find some way to effectively work together in combat, before we become a disorganized sprawl of chaos, that ends up doing more harm to one another than help." His breathing is ragged, face set in a hardened scowl. He slams his sword into its scabbard, and slings his bow.

"Let's just find what we came here for, if it didn't just get buried, and get out of here." He throws his hands up in frustration.

It was a rather amazing display, and I want to be clear that there are no hard feelings from me, just Gregor. As I said before, he will likely be the no fun stick in the mud of the group normally reserved for Paladins.

As most of the group settles into what may be their new home for an unknown amount of time, Aula and Larenti have settled into their roles toward growing the Siver Ravens once more into a real organization that can one day take on the Lord-Mayor himself to bring the city back into order.

Aula easily finds that her wily charm can sway a decent amount of people toward the need for a rebellion. She notices that the words espoused by Bardigan during the protest at Aria Park has already reached the ears of some of the citizens and given them something to think about.

Bardigan's 2 successes at the protest added 6 supporters, and Aula recruited 7. The Silver Ravens are now Rank 2, and as such you each gain a bonus skill rank that can bee applied to any skill (but not above the rank limit by level). If you do not keep the Rebellion treasury at or above the minimum, you risk losing supporters at each upkeep.

Larenti spends his time skulking among the singers, dancers, jugglers, and tumblers that tend to make up the amateur performers making limited coin from passersby. With Barzillai's takeover of the Opera House, there is still a strong fear and reluctance to try and stand up to the man and his forces. Before long, word gets out that the half-orc has been asking around, and before long the performers won't even stick around long enough for him to approach them, and he is unable to talk anyone into working with or for them.

Notoriety will get the Dottari's attention if it gets too high, but always adds to the chances of an event happening.

While the others have worked on making the Wasp's Nest into a habitable location, Rexus has remained intent on going through all the sheafs of paper to decode any information that he can from them. WHat he is able to piece together so far is limited. He learned that the Silver Ravens were established in 4606 AR in the wake of the chaos that swept over Cheliax after Aroden’s death to help protect the city of Kintargo from oppression.

As Rexus goes through the telling of his trying times, and personal loss, Gregor remains impassive. It's almost as if he has more care and sympathy for the city itself as a whole than any particular individual. Taking in all the information, he recalls as much as he can about each given subject as it arises. He likes to make an informed decision, as it is unwise to make hasty moves.

As two of the others mention waiting a day, Gregor offers his thoughts on the matter. "If we are going to spend time on scouting, why would we not scout tonight, before resting to return tomorrow? It would behoove us to know what lies ahead the night before, so we can make whatever preparations we may need. Then rise to be prepped and ready when the curfew ends in the morning. I say we not risk testing our limits as far as curfew is concerned. There is nothing gained from garnering undue attention to ourselves. Especially risking this evening's curfew if we get delayed, after the display at the Park today, the Dottari will be on edge." He realizes he may have been rambling, "I say we scout tonight, rest, and investigate the livery fiurther in the morning. If these Silver Ravens have been out as long as they have, one more day will not hinder us too much."

I made the changes about his mother to the backstory, and included the following conversation and narrative (vignette) to the bottom.

I think everything should be done. Please let me know if I'm missing anything, or if you have any questions (not that you haven't already).

I have a couple friends either new to PbP or new to/inexperienced with Pathfinder in general, and I decided that I wanted to run a PbP campaign for them. Following along the idea of those lines, I also decided that I wanted to fill out the rest of the group with people very/fairly new to PbP/Pathfinder themselves.

I'm mostly putting this out there as an interest check, which will turn into an official recruitment in the not too distant future. I'm not sure yet what I would use as the metric to define someone as new to PbP, but I'm sure it will be based off number of posts/aliases/campaigns under their belt, and the number will be fairly small (maybe only double-digits).

As such, I also have not chosen which campaign I would like to run for this particular recruitment, but it will be one of the AP's (as I own all of them except Jade Regent). I also have a very specific set of House Rules, which I employ regularly across all of my games.

Character Creation:
I'm actually a rather strict GM, and don't always follow the 'say yes' style of DMing.

That being said, I'll allow just about anything Paizo from the SRD (feats, traits, gear, etc...). There are a few exceptions nonetheless.

No 3PP. Nothing personal, just that I end up having to review every component and don't want to have to cherry pick which ones I do or don't allow. The safest answer is just avoid them all.

Normally CRB races only as a base, but with a reasonable argument I may allow something outside the core to be played.

Classes will likely only be allowed from the CRB, ACG, or UM.

I may be okay with AN (as in only 1 per group, 2 would be pushing it) evil character, as long as they can play well with others and have a reasonable argument as to why they would work with the group to accomplish the AP's goals.

Ability scores will be rolled using 4d6 drop the lowest, 7 times drop the lowest roll. If the total is lower than 15 point buy or a total modifier of +5 you will reroll. Also, if the total modifier is higher than +12, you will reroll. This helps alleviate the disparity that can happen based on rolling.

Starting wealth will actually be rolled in the thread.

Houserules:
1) A nat 1 on a skill check gives an additional -10 to the roll.
2) A nat 20 on a skill check gives an additional +10 to the roll.
3) The take 10/20 mechanic has been removed.
4) Weapon Finesse is a free feat for all (treat it as a quality of a finesse weapon).
5) Leadership is a free feat at level 9, but cohorts will be recruited out of the NPC's met within the game, based on character interactions. They will be controlled in combat by the player, but they will be RP'd by the GM.
6) All PC's get an extra skill point at each level in either a craft, perform, or profession (as long as the skill is not a class-specific skill for abilities e.g Craft Alchemy for Alchemists, or Perform for Bards). Also, they each get one skill point per level in a class-specific skill.
7) Group stealth, when sneaking as a group, the stealth total is the average of all those sneaking.
8) Aiding the best, when aiding another on skills or ability checks the highest roll is the base, all others are aiding.
9) Crafting Magic Items is only a single feat, but you will still need the appropriate level required by the previous feat of the item type being crafted.
10)All magic items have a chance of being either Cursed or Intelligent

About me as a GM:
I just want to make sure there is an understanding on where I'm coming from as a GM, so there are no incorrect assumptions due to my lack of clarity. I use every rule in the book that I am aware of, and those I don't use will be adressed as houserules. I expect the players to be cognizant of, at the very least, the rules that apply to their character. If you have a ranged weapon, regardless of being an archer, you should take into account the firing into melee and firing past cover rules.

When I play, I consider the game to be one about taking actions, and you can't assume an action that has in game consequences is taken unless declared. If there are rules for it, then it should be accounted for. If it is assumed you ate, then you should mark off a ration.

If you didn't say you used Survival to find food, then you didn't do so.
If you didn't say you were moving stealthily, you didn't do so.
If you didn't say you prepared different spells than the ones the day before, you must have kept the same ones.
If you didn't say you slept, you are fatigued or exhausted (these I'm not certain of, I can't seem to find sleep rules for anyone other than prepared casters).
If you didn't set up a watch rotation while you slept, then you all get the -10 to your perception checks for being asleep.
If you didn't say you when and where you mapped, you don't have a map.
If you didn't search for something hidden, you won't find it.*
And if you didn't say you told the party what you saw/learned/know, they don't know.

As much and as often as the others will let him.

Mulluq, hands full with sword and shield, directs his tail around to turn the handle so he can push it open with the shoulder of his sword arm.

Okay, I've been following the thread, and even broaching the subject with friends I have gamed with (but don't any more due to distance apart), and with friends I currently game with.

First, and please don't cease to read because of my preference, I am whole-heartedly in the "Changing die rolls is cheating" camp. The key to that statement "Changing Die Rolls..."

Changing stats, gear, level, power (by the rules so as to continue to remain CR/Rules appropriate), is all well within the purview of the GM for the sake of creating enemies and challenges tailored to the story the players are a part of.

Changing any of those ad hoc, in the middle of the encounter... I would consider dishonest, maybe even cheating, because it is done entirely to change the outcome from the one that is naturally happening. Regardless of your intentions, you the GM are assuming that your chosen outcome is far superior than the one that is happening, which I think is possibly a fair bit narcissistic.

My distinction lies within the aspect of the die roll itself. Once you as the DM (who I expect to be an unbiased arbiter of the how the world reacts to the PC's and their involvement, as well as a strict adjudicator of the rules as they are understood to exist by the gaming group as a whole), decide to roll a die, you decided to let the die determine the outcome for you. Do not balk in your decision, if the result is a number/outcome you don't like. If you have a desired outcome, then just declare the outcome, don't lie that it was the die roll and not just your choice.

That is what you are doing when you ignore the result of the die roll. You are just deciding the outcome that matches the story you would rather tell. I don't want to be just part of the audience listening to the GM's 'great campaign idea that is horrifically unable to reach it's desired conclusion because a PC died at the wrong my-story relevant time'.

I came to play a game. A game with a very extensive set of rules of what is required to resolve actions/decisions that are tied to die rolls. Not what you can do, may do, might need to do if things get out of hand, or could do to get things back where you want them. A game where I take on the role of someone in the deadliest, yet most monetarily rewarding job in the fantasy world. I assume that everything I face could very well end my PC's life, and I develop a voice, persona, and backstory for the type of character that has chosen to live that life.

I'm summarily bad at optimization (I love rogues, and have taken toughness a decent amount of times, because they better fit the character and concept I wanted to play than because they were/were not numerically advantageous to my 'build'), and rarely make builds as much as let my characters grow based off their experiences, over any particular mechanical goal.

I also am bothered (not angry, just bothered), by the notion that 'fudging is bad' is purely a "New Player" mindset. I've been playing for about 28 years (no breaks), from 1E to 5E, PF and various other RPG's, as well as being the GM about 80% of the time. I roll all my dice (except those listed in the rules as supposed to be hidden) in the open, and I have NEVER had a player walk away from my table.

Okay, I feel like I'm rambling, and may or may not have made my point.

Oh, by Iomedae's Glorious Light! Mulluq would never presume to 'try' saying Kira is pretty. He is trying to protect those that he thinks would be at greater risk from something that hates and tries to destroy beauty. It just so happens that, subconsciously, it seems he considers Kira, and Hannik as an afterthought, to be the ones that are the most at risk. :-P

As Feldivar moves his mount a little further into the space, Neva rushes into the room to try and push past the double doors that the Maidens were obviously guarding. She grabs the handle, but the doors are locked and do not give way.

Maiden 1d20 + 2 - 11 ⇒ (4) + 2 - 11 = -5

-----------To go this round-----------
Round 3:
Rutter - 2 damage, Hasted Hits Maiden 2
Vyshael - 15 damage, Hasted Moved sphere into H23, cast Shocking Grasp on Maiden 1

-----------Went this round-----------
Raliscar - 14 damage, Hasted Killed Maiden 2
Feldivarxon - Hasted, Invisible moved to G18
Neva - 13 damage, Hasted Move to H21, Rattles door
Maiden 1/F23 - 42 damage, Dying
Maiden 2/H23 - 49 damage, DEAD

This is my 10,000th post on the site. What better place than my longest running campaign?

I'm going to avoid being my usual stickler, and celebrate the Nat 20.

Brennan follows up on the information given by Gabriel, and investigates the false dresser. There appear to be neither signs of danger, nor even any real seams where the thing opens. Yanking the face of the dresser, he soon learns why. The whole dresser is a fake; nothing more than an empty box, open in the back.

Brennan yanked at the front so hard, that the heavy bronze chest hidden within the empty space didn't move with it. Instead, it fell to the floor with a loud thunk, and tipped over onto its back. Thanks to this, Brennan actually noticed there was a second keyhole on the bottom of the chest. There are often used to arm triggers inside a closed chest, set to go off when opened.

As he does all this, Gabriel offers an update, "There is only a single aura, it is of moderate evil. That's not good. A little more and I can pinpoint where it originates."

The camp is to the north of us, correct?

As they enter the large chamber, Arakan warns, "Avoid the center of the room. The weird hauntings seem to kick off whenever someone gets too close to something in here. Hug the walls... he looks at Jaryx, "meaning, walk closer to the wall than the center."

Yes, Rutter, go ahead and apply the "all forms" change.

Whether Rutter is aware of it or not, he still gets all the listed abilities, except for the knowledge that he can use them, per se. So, you can't choose to change form, until you know you can, but you do still gain scent and low-light and the Wis/Chr changes. You are aware that "There's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear".

In both episodes of Community where they played D&D, the DM was a strict adherent to the rules, only telling the story as results of the players choices and die rolls created them.

As everyone moves to spring the trap, Arakan follows his nature and backs up to put the fire between him and the enemy, drawing his hand crossbow as he moves. "Now that we have all gathered, we can get down to 'really' serious business." He calls out to the others, "Try not to hurt the one in the lead, he and I have an 'arrangement', don't we friend?" He adds the spark of inner conflict among the enemy in hopes of getting them to fight one another instead.

Move, to H19, drawing hand crossbow

Th'Kal emerges from the hut he was hiding in near Arakan, and draws his weapon.

Not sure which set he would use, the greataxe and claw, or the battleaxe/handaxe combo, or even if he would rage yet.

Thank you all for the kudos. His goal is to avoid fights, and if not, manipulate them in his favor. As for all the 1's, the new guys seem to be unaware that masses of 1's are Arakan's forte. Don't try to steal his schtick. ;-)

Real quick, no deliberate effort. I do not like to use the kill method of removal via fiat. If they die in game through my good/bad rolls while DMPCing them, then that is by the dice. Story wise, I prefer to have them exit the scene. I think it is vengeful to kill them off as an easy write off from the campaign.

So, Suru being Suru is the best thing to do in this or any scene.

Ooh ooh, a false target. It could be me. That way we can ambush some members, and get information from them. Since I do look like a thug, have been staying at Zellara's run-down old place, and lastly used to work 'collections' for Lamm.

Zev just scowls and sighs heavily, he did so want to be in on some action, but can't help but agree that he doesn't look like the type to need someone else as hired muscle. Fine, but I will not be far, yet try to stay out of sight."

As to the question of where he got the nickname, he opens his mouth to speak, lets it shift slightly into a half-smirk, and answers. "I got it from here." he replies while tapping his temple with his index finger. Let her chew on that for a bit, and see just how crazy it makes her. If he didn't get to crack skulls, he'll at least have a little fun.

Not taking anything from the quartermaster (already included my purchases from Minus), and without requests decided my last 3 crafted potions would be Enlarge Person x2, CLW x1.

JIC, reminder to Nic and Mercy, that you were given your requested potions (a CLW and an Enlarge Person, respectively), in case you haven't added them to your sheets.

Round 6:

Seeing one of their allies greatly wounded, and the cleric do nothing about it beyond swinging futilely at the daemon, Gregor rushes over to where he can safely cast a spell on Crain. "Stay with us Crain, you are definitely producing results."

Inspire courage continues (rounds 6-7)
Move, to D9
Standard, Cast Cure Moderate on Crain 2d8 + 5 ⇒ (4, 8) + 5 = 17

EDIT: Crain at this level, your Raging Max HP should be 3 higher.

We don't, but they vanished after the attack, so it's a safe assumption. Arakan only gives enough of a F*** about them anyways to count his assumption as good enough. He's such a swell guy, always putting others before him... whenever he comes face to face with danger. ;)

Zev steps into the gap left by Paulus, and with a furious bellow yells, "Move up, or outta the way, let me get at them!" Roaring he taps into the inner orc that has shown itself with his mutagenic change. Then he swings with all his might at the one he can reach. His increased might was much more than he had ever borne, and his greataxe flew with an intensity he was not even aware he had.

Free 5'
Free, Rage +4 Str/Con, +2 Will, -2 AC
Enlarge: +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 atk/AC
Mutagen: +4 Str, -2 Int, +2 Natural armor
Total: Str 27 (+8), Dex 10, Con 19 (HP 32/33) Int 13, AC: 12/7/11
- Attack +7+1, damage 3d6+12+1

Standard, attack Red 1d20 + 7 + 1 ⇒ (20) + 7 + 1 = 28
Confirm 1d20 + 7 + 1 ⇒ (18) + 7 + 1 = 26
Damage 9d6 + 36 + 3 ⇒ (2, 6, 4, 3, 4, 4, 6, 4, 4) + 36 + 3 = 76

Lirrathan looks at the blade and prayer with a skeptical eye. He raises a single eyebrow, nods his head once and says, "Right, whatever." before accepting the proferred weapon. "And may the light of stuff for things goodly and somesuch, forthwith in the place of gods and all manner of whatnot, do for you stuff for fighting things with that stupid talking sword too." he waves off the earlier dropped sword with his best imitation of a prayer in return.

Zev heaves a sigh, even though he nods in agreement at where Blondie's head is at. "Paul, we can't spread out and stay together at the same time. The streets and alleyways aren't always big enough for that. At some point, some of us are going to have to be up front, and some of us in the back. Without a gap between us, we are no more spread out than my first suggestion."

To Elise he adds, "Sound idea, but Annie shouldn't be up front, not if she's keen on being a bow to our blades."

He's about to speak, takes a breath, calms himself and addresses Mercy. "Look sister, no one said you guys had to wait back somewhere. I'm talking a mere few yards at most. Which is going to end up happening naturally anyways when you, Paul, and Blondie trudge around in all that heavy armor."

"Overall, the point is, we need to think in terms of street tactics, which don't always agree with battlefield tactics. The limits of terrain make that all too clear. We may even run into spots where we can only move single file. ANd like I said, someone will have to be the front, and someone the back."

Stanley looks on, concerned and somewhat displeased with the choice to have to go through with the thing altogether. As he goes through each of the tasks, however, he still gives it his all. He doesn't beleive anyone benefits when someone does just the bare minimum to get by.

First, he grabs the blade, with little to no familiarity, using his left hand to get it to sit correctly in his right hand. He adjusts and refixes his grip repeatedly, trying to make it feel marginally comfortable. Finally feeling better with it, he thrusts and almost throws it at one of the others, before accepting, "Well, it is probably for the best that I chose a life of healing others over harming."

Attack roll 1d20 + 1 - 4 ⇒ (2) + 1 - 4 = -1

He moves on to practicing the lines. He easily learns and repeats them, but they are emotionless. He recites them plain, simple, and bland. There is nothing more to his performance beyond the ability to simply remember the words.

Perform (Acting) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (9) + 1 = 10

Clearing his throat a few times, he attempts to sing the lines, but again memorizing does nothing to add effect to the words. Then again, neither does being somewhat tone deaf.

Perform (Sing) 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (5) + 1 = 6

So far the best he has done is convince the others that he actually means what he says, when reciting or singing, both emotionlessly. That may be due to how often he maitains his same composure in most everything else.

Bluff 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (11) + 3 = 14

It's this stony demanor that lends no real weight of intent to his words. He is unable to convey the notion of bearing so much anger toward the other characters. Even in combat he is more willing to give the enemy quarter if they are willing to mend their ways.

Intimidate 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (4) + 1 = 5

All of these issues could also evolve from being the center of attention. He likes the calm quiet confines of his office, or sitting soothingly at the bedside of his patients to guide them on when they pass. Addressing a large group is far outside his comfort zone.

Will Save (w/Chr DC15) 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (7) + 4 = 11

So, with these particular skills, combined with any stagefright penalties, now I know why Stanley didn't go into the field of entertainment.

No, he tries to annoy them from behind his wall of tougher-than-him allies. It just somehow seems like they can't hear him unless there's no obstacles between he and the enemy. a.k.a. what Jareen said earlier. ;)

Wraithstrike, I totally get where you're coming from, as well as what is meant on the forums by the term viable. I was not confused or mistaken by what they are asking, just to be clear.

It's not a matter of how 'I' use the term. I don't use the term viable at all in regards to PC's, as I don't actually measure them as a GO/NO-GO (or viable/non-viable) standard.

I was saying, the reason I don't think it's an appropriate term, is because there is too much leeway in what it actually means to be viable or not based on the reader or interpretation, especially from table to table.

More appropriately, there should be a term with a more rigid meaning, since it is being used for a rigid measurement. Do these numbers meet these benchmarks? That's what is being asked.

Since that is the question, I think a word that more effectively means just that should be used, but that word is not 'viable'.

Overall, there are a lot of forum terms and practices that I personally disagree with, but accept as how others play the game their way. My issue is the choice of using the word 'viable' to mean meeting a high mechanical standard. When that's not what viable means.

Okay, "Capable of working successfully".

To which you defined to mean, a martial character needing more than a 20 to hit a CR appropriate threat.

So, a CR 5 creature has 18, meaning that a 19-20 hits for someone with a -1. That menas that the PC is capable of successfully hitting that CR 5 monster.

That same CR 5 monster, has a good save of 8. A caster needs at least a 10 in their stat to cast 0 level spells (going bare minimum here). Barring ability modifiers, the CR 5 would fail only on a 1. So, what if it was a 1st level spell (casting stat 11)? Then they fail on 1 or 2.

Your terms of success are as simple as needing more than a single number on the die? But you wouldn't accept either of those as viable would you?

So, where does the number really lie? 15 or more, 12, 10, 8, 5? Who sets this standard for what counts as success? As long as a nat 20 is an option, there is technically always a chance for success, except that was the one number you discounted. I mean, if 10 is the standard (50/50 seems not too unreasonable), then I think I unintentionally skirt that line fairly often, yet the only times I've died are when I don't roll over 7, so the standard of 10 would have been irrelevant.

More importantly, how do you measure contribution? Only by how well they hit in combat, or how hard their spell saves are? WHat if the PC has total crap numbers, but their plans top anything the rest of the group ever comes up with?

That's why I hate the term. Contributing or even being "capable of working successfully", only requires the ability to be capable of success. Because of 1' and 20's that can be at any level. Not even including what counts as contribution outside the numerical standard.

I understand. I'm sure there are a fair number of people that will not accept characters that do not produce high chances of success based on the die roll. I just don't agree that the term viable is the appropriate one. Why not 'highly successful' or even just 'successful'?

"I want to make this Magus build highly successful"

Or 'Statistically superior'

"What's the best way to make a statistically superior rogue?"

Because that typically what's asked for with the word viable. It doesn't come off as they want one that works. They want one that works the best.

Then again, this thread was about what forum memes bother us. If it doesn't bother you, or even you agree with the term, enjoy. I personally, however, think it's used derogatively to invalidate many a concept that someone may want to play until they find it isn't considered 'viable' by the mechanically superior.

Arakan of course grumbles as he rides forward. They come off of scout duty, to do what, go see what the scouts on duty want? He'll have to remember that next time they are ahead. He didn't realize, when there was trouble they should just call the other scouts up to se what the problem is. Despite this, all the others hear is some muttering under his breath.

It's a Caster level check, not a Spellcraft, but regardless, the roll is high enough regardless of which modifier you add.

So, I just wanted to talk you guys through my thinking before I posted the results.
My first thought was to look up blindsight under bat, and see if there were any special notes. Barring any, I looked at the ability itself, then went and looked at a Bat wiki.
Now, bats use sonics, but they are not reliant on only it. That said, they never studied them in an entirely soundless environment (yay magic), so there's no telling what effect it would actually have on them. In the end, I wanted to reward ingenuity, and the willingness to expend a more powerful consumable item.

The creatures swarm all over Faedrin, chirping and squeeking. Tanjvats, drawing a scroll from his person, easily manages to finalize the incantation. Suddenly, the world goes silent. There is no chirping, no lapping of the disturbed waters, no unintended calls of pain from an enveloped Faedrin. There is nothing. As disturbing as absolute silence is to the party within the effect, it is even worse to a large swarm of bats. Suddenly, their primary means of hunting has vanished. They devolve into total disarray, flying more chaotically, some smacking into others, into the nearby stair railings, the water itself, and even sometimes into Fade. They are too disoriented, and try to move somewhere, anywhere away from here. They fly north toward the wall abutting the pool, and disappear into the wall, though some still smack the wall itself. Before much time has even passed, the collective swarm has fled to the best of its ability.

Arakan levels a steely-eyed gaze at the arm before him, following it up to the owner. He licks his teeth behind his closed lips, before 'explaining' the situation, "Now, you may think that we paid down below because we are some dense rubes just blindly walking through the world like tonight is our first sunset. You couldn't be further from the truth." He leans back and crosses his arms, before inspecting the nails on his right hand. "We paid for the sake of the hurry we're in. What it doesn't mean is that we are going to allow you to take advantage of our haste. We have information of grave importance to Coyotl, that we have been tasked with delivering to his advisor. For the implications of this information, and what it portends, your continued obstruction only means that we have a finger to point when someone asks why this news wasn't brought to them sooner...." He puts his knuckles on his hips and leans in closer, "Do you want to be the to tell them is was because you were trying to coax a petty fee from us, or should I?"

Bluff 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (17) + 13 = 30
Intimidate 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (18) + 10 = 28

As Dareon brashly decides to jump the ledge in order to make it in front of Kascio, an odd floating feeling overtakes him. As the last to cross the ropes earlier, he still bore the ring of feather falling. He lands gently right below his place on the balcony, before going to stand protectively before the others.

Round 1:
Esmeralda -
Penance -
Kascio -
Amoeba 1/E13 - 1 damage
Amoeba 2/E14 -
Tanjvats -

Faedrin - Dropped rapier, drew bow, hit Amoeba 1
Dareon - move to G12, Full-defense

You guys really should start tracking that ring so I don't need to go back through the thread whenever someone (most frequently Dareon) travels some vertical distance. ;)