It's true that the B scenarios of RotR are more distinctly memorable than the ones in S&S. However, to generalize from this that 3 scenarios are better than 5 is an exercise in flawed logic.
Sorry, probably my post got a bit lost in translation and I didn't really explain myself very well. I wasn't arguing we have 3 scenarios based solely on the fact that 'I remember the RotRL scenarios more so than S&S so 3 is better than 5' - I think what I was sort of trying to say (in my opinion) is that only having 3 scenarios for RotRL didn't hurt the experience and for me personally, may have enhanced it in some ways by pushing players into the AD1 experience sooner, but also giving them a little 'tutorial' feel too.
I was just responding to the debate about the purpose of the B scenarios and what they should contain, with my suggestion that perhaps reducing the number might allow the developers to keep them more focused as tutorials.
I wasn't stating that the "memorability" of scenarios was the main reason for this suggestion (that was a by product of my argument really), but at the same time perhaps there is an argument at times that 'less is more'.
But I also agree that the core sets are a massive outlay of cash, and value for money is paramount. Although again, never hurt my experience of RotRL to have just 3 B scenarios.
One thing I would suggest is perhaps considering just having three scenarios in the B adventure. I thought this worked well for RotRL. They gave you enough experience to get used to the game, were challenging (as you only had B loot available) and very thematic. But they also didn’t outstay their welcome.
I can only talk for S&S at this point (as haven’t played WotR yet) but having 5 B scenarios actually felt a bit much for me. Because of the weaker boons, after three scenarios I found myself quite keen to get stuck into the AP1 scenarios so that I could shuffle in some new cards. Also felt that the B scenarios became a little samey after a while in S&S. If someone asked me to describe one, I would probably struggle - but I can remember each and every one of the RotR B scenarios (who could ever forget the dastardly Jubrayl Vhiski, the poison pills and the mighty Fang!)
Just a thought anyway – as focusing down on maybe just three might be better, providing the introduction new players need, offering a some characterful backstory, but getting veteran players into the meat of the adventure path a little quicker.
My band of scurrilous sea dogs - who finally (finally) crawled across the Regatta finish line!
(Did start the campaign with Alahazra but lost her in the B scenarios and replaced with Valeros.)
Character Name: Valeros
Character Name: Lirianne
Character Name: Lem
Character Name: Seltyiel
(*) Been using the Man's Promise as the main ship, but will now replace with Kraken.
Just wondered what iconics we might be seeing in the upcoming Mummy’s Mask set. I haven’t played the Pathfinder Adventure; often the artwork that accompanies the campaign can be a big hint as to what iconics we might see.
Here are my thoughts anyway, but will no doubt be way off!
Still short of three (taking into consideration base set and expansion). Anyone have any thoughts/guesses?
Chad Brown wrote:
so maybe it's better to help people skip over the "intro", but maybe it's better to get people to complete the on-ramp instead.
I'd definitely suggest making the B scenarios as compelling to play as possible, which would mean keeping the nice card feat reward at the end. Otherwise, people skipping straight to the 1 scenarios would mean that they are essentially missing 50% of the 'content' of their base set (if there were 5 B scenarios).
You could even offer a special loot item for one of the scenarios. Something a bit more of a boost in power than your usual B items. That way new players feel like they have acquired something cool - and veteran players can't necessarily keep farming, as the loot item is a one off. If that makes sense.
then you have campaign games (real full ones I mean, that's why Zombicide belongs to the other group), where you really are into your character and the fun is more into the RPG than into the strategy puzzle or the " too bad you rolled 1 before getting the Holy Avenger so your are dead ".
Never a truer word spoken. And I think that is what the developers have missed as they have transitioned from RotRL to other sets. This is not Zombicide where we might expect to wipe/lose a scenario. This is essentially a RPG adventure. You hope and pray that it allows you to build and develop your characters, from novices to "mythic heroes".
Out of interest, was the actual original Pathfinder AP as punishing as the card version? That would seem... odd for a RPG campaign.
So you rather have an easy game where everybody can take a Melee Swordsman and have a go at every monster and feel like they're a God
Well I think you need to consider a few things:
1. I imagine most players of PACG are not ‘hardcore’ gamers. Therefore they will come to the game with a certain set of expectations – that they will enjoy the game and have fun, and get chance to learn the game mechanics while they get to grips with the system. Not all will be veterans who have played through ROTRL or S&S. Some may be picking up this game as their introduction to PACG and perhaps the theme appealed to them.
2.It stands to reason that the ‘base’ level missions of ‘any’ game should facilitate a learning curve, so people can get to grips with the new character they have chosen, get used to the game mechanics, and understand how to work together to overcome goals. Whether “thematic” or not, having card wipes and even party wipes in the first few scenarios is not conducive to helping people to get ‘into’ the game. In many ways, it presents the entirely opposite situation of making people wanting to give up. You can make things challenging without making them feel 'impossible'. That's called balance.
3. Most gaming groups do not necessarily have the time to replay every scenario multiple times. If the difficulty is too hard – and from what people are saying – based more on luck than any type of skill, then groups will want to spend their time playing something else.
4. Not everyone reads forums. They might play the base adventure path (as one would always do) and think ‘oh hell, if this is just the start…’. They won’t naturally assume that AD1 is easier.
5. It is stated in the blog post that any character can play any scenario. Swapping and changing is all part of the system. From what I have read repeatedly on these forums, people are finding that party composition is vital to even surviving in WoTR. People have already stated that they’ve often had to drop a favourite character to choose one that better helps the party. Spellcasters are having a particularly rough time – with Adowyn suggested multiple times as a ‘must have’. Whether such things are true or not, again it puts a barrier up between casuals and new players, and getting into the game.
6.People need incentive to buy the further adventure packs. Paizo relies on players getting invested in the game to buy those future packs. If you are losing a lot of players just on the core set, then that is not a great business model.
The ‘hardcore’ brigade might turn on ROTR and its low difficulty threshold, but that game was hugely successful. It was accessible to everyone and fun. If that had been released with this type of difficulty setting, I wonder if we would even have future adventures.
When your characters were Demigods in RotR destroying everything in their path without a concern and we were finishing scenarios with almost half the blessings deck left (in a 5 player group no less) that's extremely boring.
Yeah, I'll agree, by the end of RotR heroes did get very OP but that was fun and rewarding in itself, feeling like you had built these characters up over time and felt attached to them.
I always sort of saw PACG as a 'role-playing' adventure with the cards becoming the GM. So in that context RotR was perfect because you always felt matched and able to take on the challenges ahead. But there was always the time factor and bad card draws which could still catch you out if you weren't planning ahead. Even with OP heroes, games still felt tense and exciting - and the search for new loot felt like much more of the focus. To that end, it was the perfect 'role-playing' adventure.
S&S felt like I was playing against a bad GM who was sniggering behind his game screen, with the sole motivation not to provide a great gaming experience for the group, but to frustrate and kill them off as soon as possible. If that was a real role-playing group, then imagine how long that campaign would last...
I dunno. Maybe I'll go back to S&S one of these days. I felt it had bigger issues than just the annoying barrier checks and difficulty - the ship mechanics were cumbersome and annoying. Just didn't float my boat. (Excuse the pun.) But I understand that people who prefer a harder challenge and don't mind replaying scenarios would probably love it more than I did.
I'm by no means a casual gamer (so don't put me in that category). I just feel the PACG started out being fun - but somewhere along the line, for me anyway, it just became frustrating instead.
I didn't feel that rush of accomplishment I usually feel when squeezing a win by a narrow margin. I just felt glad it was over. First time I've played this game and realized I was actually not having fun..
I found this with Skull and Shackles, hence I just dropped the game for good. RotR was great fun. Sadly, too many people complained it was 'easy' (I would have used the term 'balanced'). S&S felt a bit of a mess when it came to balance - and I fully suspected things to only get worse with WotR.
This was never a game imo that should be 'punishing' - there is nothing more soul-destroying or annoying than to replay a scenario multiple times. Yes, it should be challenging - yes it should come down to the wire on a few occasions, and RNG is always going to play a role here too, but when it just feels poorly tested and trying too hard to be 'hard' then that isn't fun anymore. If I want that kind of experience, I can go play Dark Souls...
I'm a sucker for anything Egyptian themed, so Mummy's Mask might draw me back to this franchise - but if they keep upping the difficulty and introducing more and more faffy mechanics to keep track off... hmm, maybe my PACG days are over.
I was a huge fan of ROTR and I did buy S&S and the first few scenario decks, but sadly S&S really didn’t do anything for me. I don’t think the shift in design and mechanics ended up working for me. I enjoyed ROTR because it felt like a good old-fashioned dungeon bash. There was great synergy between the different characters and I liked the setting and theme.
I thought the same would be true of S&S but I found its increased difficulty (with the emphasis on overcoming tasks rather than opponents, so characters lost their 'identities' by having to spread their upgrades thinly to cope with the breadth of checks) coupled with rather faffy mechanics (don’t really like how the ships were done – and all the other extra game elements (swashbuckling trait, umpteen million allies…) and characters that didn’t feel like they had any synergy at all) meant that I sadly stopped purchasing the scenario decks.
I think, in truth, my experience was somewhat marred by the delays and problems at release, not having the character add on deck when I started play, class decks coming late – and so on. That really put a dampener on the experience for me.
I’m not sure about WOTR. Part of me wonders if it will be more of a return to the good old ROTR gameplay that I enjoyed, but I suspect – in an effort to make every AP unique – lots of ‘new stuff’ will be added to it (the mythic thing for one) which will probably dilute the experience for me. I’ll keep checking the boards for updates for certain.
Thanks for confirming guys.
Actually Dave's comment is probably highlighting my mistaken assumption - as I was reading the location text as I *had* to take the boon as I automatically succeeded the check. Good to know that I can still opt out and banish items I don't want; makes the reward/punishment a little more bearable! (It was acquiring all the haunts that was making me wonder if I should have been able to close the location.)
Quick question - I'm sure this was asked before actually, but haven't been able to locate the thread.
The Wishing Well location forces you to summon and encounter a pirate haunt if you acquire a boon.
I assume that the summoned card (like all summoned henchmen) does not allow you to attempt to close the location, even though the card carries the standard henchman text re: closing a location.
My common sense/game knowledge would argue that you can't attempt to close the location. Although once I had three haunts on one of my characters (nasty...) I was starting to doubt myself! This is a nasty location!
Yep thanks guys - it was to benefit from the extra 1d4 to combat when using a melee weapon. But guess there may be lots of other instances when I may want him to use a 'buffing' spell in addition to his power, so wanted to be sure I was playing it correctly.
Thanks for clarifying, glad I had it right!
Just a quick question.
If Seltyiel plays a weapon for his combat check, then recharges a spell from his hand for his extra 1d6, I assume he can still 'play' a spell on that turn, such as Magic Weapon. My assumption is that by recharging the spell earlier for his power he didn't play it for his check, so he can still play a spell.
Just wanted to confirm I was playing that correctly.
gavin kerr wrote:
Secondly they are badly cut off-centre with the black border missing completely on some edges.
Some of my cards were off cut also - not badly enough that I would demand I had replacements, but most of my role cards and character cards were misaligned so the black border was much thicker one side than the other. I wasn't at all impressed for a product that costs this much. Also there were about three-four cards that had slightly scuffed corners, and that was straight out of their packets.
That is a seriously risky card, especially since you have at LEAST two 1 in 6 chances to suffer the penalty; more if there are more d6's in the roll than the two he contributes to it.
That's interesting - I initially read it as being the d6's you rolled for Mogmurch but the card doesn't make it explicit so yes could apply to any d6 in that case. Not sure if that was intended.
The fire damage makes it pretty risky I know, but still - in ROTR having such an ally like that to help close (or temporary close) an annoying location would have been awesome.
Mind you having got round to looking at the cards in the S&S base set, there are A LOT of boons to boost checks, granting higher rolls and bonuses, more so than ROTR - so perhaps Mogmurch isn't as crazy OP as I thought.
Well, he 'IS' still crazy I guess...
One of his powers is:
Recharge this card to add 2d6 and the Fire trait to any check.
Should that be combat check or does it (as states) literally mean ANY check, including closing locations?! The addition of the Fire trait would only make sense for combat checks, and the fact it could be any check seems a bit over-powered.
Just wanted to check.
My second group to make it to the end:
Character Name: Amiri
Character Name: Seoni
Character Name: Sajan
Character Name: Harsk
Only just realised my first group are missing a card feat for completing the Adventure Path. Oh well!
Onwards to Skull & Shackles!
Ugh, I know I should really just ignore UK/Euro release dates but it is pretty depressing logging into Book Depository to see they are now citing the S&S base set release as 13 January! It was, up until yesterday, the 9 September. I guess stock at Paizo must cause their stock control algorithm to go into cardiac arrest.
Does make me worry though, with all the chaos re: printing and supply issues, that there has been a serious knock on effect with the availability of sets for rest of the world suppliers?
I looked on Amazon UK and S&S base set still isn't even registered/listed, which is equally depressing. Are there any UK users here who can recommend a good UK games supplier that gets stuff on time? I know there is Forbidden Planet but never really used them for new release stuff.
I should probably stop stressing. It will be here 'when it's here'.
Just wanted to say that my Rise of the Runelords Anniversary hardback arrived today – a compilation of all the RPG modules. It really is a beautiful book and I highly recommend it to die-hard fans of the card game. I don’t play the RPG but through playing the card game I have become increasingly intrigued and fascinated by its cast of characters, mysterious locales and devious plotlines. The card game doesn’t do the best of jobs at filling in the backstory or making it clear exactly who all these odd npcs are and how they fit in with the story. That’s no bad thing, the card game lets you make your own stories and connections, but as a bit of an obsessive geek I wanted to go one step further and really immerse myself in this fascinating world.
The book, as I have mentioned, is beautiful – packed with great artwork (the maps and locations are particularly fascinating – now you can actually ‘see’ what locations like the Glassworks and the Catacombs of Wrath look like!) – and of course, loads of backstory and information on the denizens of Sandpoint and its environs. At last I know exactly who the Shopkeep’s daughter is (other than being, well, the shopkeep’s daughter), the significance of the ‘monster in the closet’ barrier, the purpose and relations of npcs such as Ven Vinders, Ameiko Kaijitsu and Shalelu Andosana. It feels like the card game was the trailer and now I am finally getting to see the ‘movie’ and fit all the pieces together.
So, while pricey, I highly recommend the book. It is a shame there won’t ever be a hardback compilation of the Skull & Shackles AP (Paizo should really think more about the crossover between the curious card gamers and their RPG products), but based on what I have read with this and the enjoyment I am getting out of it, I may very well start picking up the S&S individual modules so that I can immerse myself in the skulduggery of the shackles. Damn it Paizo. Take my money! :-P
Anyway, just wanted to share!
Those characters don't really benefit from arcane and divine boons as they would need to banish the items/spells when used anyway. For closing checks, use blessings to boost your skill. It is certainly doable. The timer can run out even with the best/most balanced parties so I wouldn't be too down on your group.
But if you want to experience more of the spell side of things and have easier checks then Lini or Lem would be a good addition.
NOG the Demoralizer wrote:
So I have a confession to make, and it is probably going to make some bibliophile people feel all squeamish. To solve this I made the decision to get mine all coil bound at Kinkos.
Wow, that is dedication to the cause. Impressive - almost as impressive as reading and exercising at the same time. True multitasking!
One of the reasons I've seen them give, which that quote doesn't mention, is that if bundled them into hardcover as a practice, it would reduce people subscribing to each individual one. i.e. If you knew that later on you could just purchase the hardcover edition, you might not be a subscriber to the regular monthly editions.
Yeah, makes sense - although if they had been out a good while (say a couple of years), then it would be good to have a sort of a collector's special edition.
I have checked out the resources on BGG. Really good and much needed in my opinion. I am a bit of a geek completest though, hence I'll pick up the Runelords anniversary edition. I enjoy finding out more about the world and the characters.
Was interested to see the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition, which compiles all the modules in one book. Hadn't been aware this was available but might pick up a copy - as a fan of the ACG it will be nice to read up on all the scenarios and npcs, and delve deeper into the story/background.
I wonder if they will do more of these compilations? If there was ever an S&S one I'd certainly snap it up. I really like the idea of the hardback format for APs rather than buying modules all separately.
I just see the Paladin as a painful experience. No items just makes me cringe.
Will be interesting to see what future Seelah incarnations bring - such as in the class deck and WotR. Personally I enjoyed playing Seelah, she can become quite a solid fighter and healer by the mid-late game, but I have to agree in smaller parties her lack of item capacity would be a huge pain. In those instances, Kyra would be a better choice if you wanted a fighter/healer type.
The base set (and add on deck) are still slated for 9 September (that's the good news and hope it stays that way!). Just bit confused why the class decks seem to have slipped to November. Could just be a glitch. I may just end up ordering from the States, but doubt I'll have them for when I start playing S&S, which is majorly annoying.
I'm just wondering when the class decks are going to be available over in the UK. I've pre-ordered them from Book Depository who are now telling me that the estimated release date is 11 November! (I'm really hoping that is a glitch as originally they were slated for early September, same as the S&S sets.)
I went onto Amazon US to see whether I could pick them up sooner, as I really want to have them (at least the Rogue deck) before I start my play of S&S. Even on Amazon US the release date is saying September 16.
Are those dates official? I know there were hiccups with the printing of the decks, but surely November is kind of a mistake? I may end up trying to track them down from a dedicated games suppliers. I really don't want to end up spending extortionate money on eBay, but I am a little OCD when it comes to getting hold of these things :P
She looks a great character and I look forward to playing her in my first group in S&S.
My interpretation of her powers:
2) Her evading boons is similar to Seelah's power (placing a boon on the bottom of the deck). Thematically, it represents a character who just wants to storm through a location and get straight to the bad guys. So evading a boon (if it is rubbish or not appropriate for her and someone else might want to acquire) means she gets to encounter another card, giving her more chance of finding that henchman or villain.
My second quartet – this time a damage heavy band that seem to have no problem smashing and blasting their way through location decks. Lack of healing has led to a few tense moments, but all good so far.
Character Name: Amiri
Character Name: Harsk
Character Name: Sajan
Character Name: Seoni
Interestingly, Harsk never had a lot of appeal for me (think I have a thing against Dwarves) and I was in two minds about including him in this team, but ‘wow’ is he good. The ability to add a 1d4 with modifier to any person’s combat check is just amazing, certainly in the early game. He has been a pleasant surprise and proving one my favourite characters.
On a side note – second playthrough and I have to agree with those who have been clamouring on these forums about the shocking poor quality of the card stock. I have been very careful with my cards but already I have noticed a few cards getting scuffed and showing signs of wear. I’m sure I haven’t played my set nearly as much as some other groups, and I have to say that I am disappointed that I am now going to have to sleeve my sets (just ordered sleeves and the divider insert from Broken Token). The cards are handled a lot in this game, not only shuffling but also moving cards in and out of the box etc. It is costing me a fair whack of money to sleeve my set (and swap out the plastic inlay for the modified insert). I’m doing it because I love this game and want to continue enjoying it, but I do feel the card stock is a serious issue. I guess, with backward compatibility, it is too late to address those issues, but it makes each AP purchase a serious money sink above and beyond just the base sets and add ons. Anyway, minor gripe over!
And then yeah, once you can upgrade him to put those cards back in his hand AFTER you refill your hand, you end up with tons of cards in hand every round.
I'm not sure I am following - the ability states that you return the cards to your hand *before* you reset your deck. Therefore those cards would count towards your usual hand size.
Even with the feat upgrade, you would be getting the cards back before you reset your hand each time.
Perhaps they changed it? I agree, if the cards were added after resetting it would be surprisingly good!
That's the way I read it - the cards don't return to his hand until his reset phase (or start of turn if you take the upgrade). I must admit I was a little disappointed in Oloch, I'm not sure that's such a great ability as it denies him cards for his turn. I suppose once you take the upgrade it becomes a lot more useful.
My options for S&S sure got a whole lot more complicated! (Right now, Rogue and Cleric are getting my vote!)
A shame I can't find anywhere in the UK at the moment where I can preorder these. I guess I just have to be patient and hope they become available in the next few weeks, around the time of the S&S base set.
EDIT: Hey, they're now showing on Book Depository at last! Better get my wallet out :)
My victorious crew. Completed the final scenario last night, while a thunder storm raged outside. It was kind of fitting ;)
Character Name: Valeros
Character Name: Merisiel
Character Name: Seelah
Astute viewers will note that my four-hero party is missing a significant member. Sadly, Ezren died on the final scenario of Sins of the Saviours (Into the Runeforge). It was a noble sacrifice, defeating the Highlady Alexis on his last turn and closing the location. Unfortunately, having burned through cards in the combat (all heroes were struggling by the end of this scenario) and failing to recharge his spell, meant he was one card short when resetting. A sad end, but his death meant that the rest of my team were able to go on and defeat the bad guy. I considered resurrecting him but it just didn’t feel right. I wanted his loss to sort of mean something – so I headed into AP6 with my three surviving (and much wiser) characters.
The last scenario was a lot of fun. And lucky for me that Karzoug was the last card in the location deck so I only had to face him once! (About time I had some luck.) The honors fell to Merisiel who, with the aid of blessings and a spell, managed to pummel that final villain into the ground with a whopping (and personal record-breaking) damage score of 68! Take that sucker!
Hey guys, I know it is early days and the role cards haven't been released yet - but I am super stoked for this game after reading the S&S rulebook. Got me to thinking again about my four-character party and wondered what other players were planning on choosing.
For me my definite choices are:
The Alchemist (he throws bombs. nuff said)
Still not sure about my last two spots. Possibly the Oracle to provide a divine caster - and either the swashbuckler or gunslinger for final spot.
So many options! War priest and witch also sound fun too. Hmmm.
Wondered if others had decided on their line up yet, and how they were planning to balance out roles etc.
Zoltán Mészáros wrote:
I heartily agree with this. Like you guys, OP play is not relevant to me so it will come down to characters that I'd like to take through a replay of RotRL and future S&S games (once I've played with those in the base set+add on).
More info and sneak peeks at some of the upcoming cards and characters would be great. At the moment I'm very undecided what Class Decks I would want to purchase as I don't think I can justify buying them all. Rogue and Bard are early contenders for my money.
EDIT: Gunslinger679 makes a very good point! I never thought of that. I have a first printing set, so I guess mixing in the cards is going to be a waste of time. Oh well...