If you haven't purchased Skull & Shackles yet, tell us why!


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion

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Personally, I bought S+S right away and loved it. However, as noted by some other posters here, many people I know have a hard time getting into it or refuse to touch it at all. It's not so much the pirate theme but they really have hang-ups with the idea of the game including guns. I think they're just being traditional fantasy snobs. I love seeing a mixing of genres in any game and I especially like the more imaginative firearms in this game (dagger gun, shield gun, etc.). My knowledge of the Pathfinder RPG is extremely limited but I think there's at least one campaign that dips into sci-fi and I'd like to see that come into the card game just as much as I liked the pirate theme here. Basically, I just hope this fantasy snob attitude isn't too far spread, doesn't hurt the game's sales, and the developers continue to delve into the new and unfamiliar.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ragecage wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Interesting to see how many potential players seem to be put off by the pirate theme. I can see that for the roleplaying version (but not really understand, because romanticized pirates are fun!), but for a game like this, which is basically a board game, I think it's a weird decision.

I don't think it's wierd. I want to enjoy the theme of the game I'm playing.

It's the same reason I steer away from military themed games...not my thing.
I love the game play of PACG, but I don't like pirates enough to spend $100+ on this version. I'll wait for the next set to be released and play a theme I enjoy.

Fair point, I guess.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I wasn't going to post because I own S&S, but some of the people I play with have had a waning interest in S&S and said they probably wouldn't pick up WotR. All of their feedback has come down to more or less what Gandalf73 said:

Gandalf73 wrote:


• There isn’t a lot of variation in gameplay from scenario to scenario. This by itself would not be as big an issue for me if the theme and story really game through, but the limited text and limited variation in mechanics do not immerse me in the story. As others have pointed out, the fan made adventure guide does a great job helping to bring out the story.

There is a craving for more story, more varied scenarios, and stronger themeing. A couple that I play S&S with recently picked up RotR to play with each at home and they keep gushing over how great the story is compared to S&S. Here are some verbatim quotes:

Friend: One scenario that came to mind: "Them ogres aint right". You start at the village you just saved last scenario/path. The other location is a field that you go to on the way to the other location, a hanging suspended bridge, and the last location is the ogre cave itself.
Me: can you not just skip to the ogre cave?
Friend: yes, you can, but closing one of the other ones first gave you +2 to ogres. Also, the henchmen were all inbred, so they were all the same henchman, but when you encountered them you roll a d4, and that determines their special characteristics: on a 1 this ogre is immune to poison, on a 2 this ogre gets shuffled back in even if defeated, ect...
Me: you mentioned something about it ending climatically?
Friend: Yeah the whole adventure path built up on the ogre plot line. The scenario I just described was the first or second one on the path. A later one you prevent the dam from being destroyed (I think) by the ogres, then take back a ranger fort from the ogres. Then at the end of the path you learn after killing the boss (via his card quote text on his defeated side) that the ogres were being forced to do this by some greater, evil power. In the next path you find out that that greater power is a necromancer stone giant
and he has taken over the ogre clan and ogre caves.


Vic Wertz wrote:
So in general, I'm not going to be responding a lot in here—I'm here to listen and learn—but I will just say that that's not what the DriveThru secret project is.

Thanks for sharing that information. I think I had a reasonable guess. DriveThruRPG prints other materials like RPG rulebooks, and the errata cards solve the hardest part of printing the Organized Play scenarios - matching the card backs - so printing the instruction booklet and a few cards wouldn't be impossible. I'll place an order tomorrow on Paizo.com for those pdfs, its a nice, simple upgrade to get more life out of Skull & Shackles.

Back to the topic at hand, I participated in a thread on BGG with users who wanted character continuity from Rise of the Runelords, and skipped purchasing Skull & Shackles because they couldn't maintain their character progress. I think I covered most of the business and game-design reasons why their assumption that it would be "easy" (with the implied assumption of huge sales numbers) weren't realistic. I can post a link to the thread if you want the pros & cons of the discussion about that particular game feature.


I got the RotR base set, the character add on, and the scenario decks. I have gotten to play it once. Due to time and player limitations, then, I can't justify getting S+S. If it was cheaper, I would probably consider it anyway due to being an inveterate collector, but the production values are pretty amazing, and it works against it as it is.

It is a lovely game, though.


jog1118 wrote:
i bought the whole ROTRL series. i'm considering getting S&S but i'm not that into the pirate scene...plus i'm also playing several other games (im only at adventure3 of ROTRL) :)

This has been the most common thing I've read as to why people aren't buying this. Maybe it's burnout from the Arrrr! Pirate Day! type of stuff. The same thing that killed 1980's robots and ninjas.

It's a shame because it's amazingly fun.


Because I'm obsessive-compulsive and haven't finished Rise of the Runelords yet. That said, I plan to. Nothing makes a game better than having a justification to finish every sentence with, "Yarrrr, matey!"


The main reason I didn't purchase S&S is because my group has been playing RotR as an occasional filler when we don't have enough players for our regular weekly Pathfinder RPG game. I bought each adventure deck as it came out, but we're still only halfway through the Fortress of the Stone Giants. The main reason progress has been so slow is that we used to spend a lot of time re-doing past adventures that individual players had missed. We've stopped doing that now, so we should wrap by the time Wrath of the Righteous comes out. My current intention is to buy it on release.

I was tempted to purchase S&S and run organized play sessions, but the delay in organized play and my lack of interest in the pirate theme made it a pass for me. I may run organized WotR this summer for local Pathfinder players if I have enough time.


Pirates. Besides that why am I getting the same characters or at least some in S&S. I want my old game to work with my new game, so make them more backwards compatible, not just recycle some of the old characters( I know they are very slightly different). I spent 200 plus on the first game plus mats, now if I get S&S I will get some of the same, if I get the mats I will get some of the same and so forth. S&S feels like an expansion for the full price. And if the new one is the same feel I will be canceling it as well. I don't need 4 versions of the same people, and if you want to give me the same people, print out 10 more cards to give me more people to be. Did I mention pirates? Oh and the boring dice, really? You can't give me at least red boring dice and then maybe green boring dice with the new sets? That being said, I do love ROTRL, i will most likely pick up S&S on sale, but going forward, it's getting expensive to keep buying the same game over and over again. And lastly pirates. They just don't interest me. :)

Silver Crusade

For me, I do already have S&S, but I do think I would like to see a card game more integrated like what was said before. Maybe a whole base 0 set that is just generic, but as full as RotR or S&S, then future adventure paths be added to the base set as add ins, much like the adventure deck add ons. Basically, I still only want 1 big box, that I could use for Runelords, S&S, and whatever future paths you have in mind.

Don't know if it would work with what's already been released, but others above had said something similar. That $60 is a little daunting for a big box I'll use for one adventure.

Edit, though I do plan on Playing through S&S more than once, I suppose a better way to say is that I don't want 100s of cards to just sit and rot when I move on to the next adventure path.

Edit 2: Also, would freaking love a Jade regent or oriental theme.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I'm a subscriber, so I have all of S&S (now, since In Hell's Heart just arrived yesterday).

I am considering reevaluating after I get the full WotR set.

1) The pace is very fast, and I don't have a home group. I have limited time to get a group going and I'm a very busy person. I'll probably get a home group going again once I get more time.
2) I have OP and I'd like to grow it, but there's been a significant number of rules changes, enough that I'm probably the only person in my group who understands the rules to a good enough extent now. I expect the round of playtesting after WotR to go better.
3) The cost is significant, and though I can afford it, it does cause me to reconsider sometimes.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
zeroth_hour wrote:
I'm a subscriber, so I have all of S&S (now, since In Hell's Heart just arrived yesterday).

Lucky! I just checked my tracking and my order was in El Paso yesterday (about 90 miles from where I live). It'd be nice if it makes it to me today so I can add the promos in for game day tomorrow.

zeroth_hour wrote:

I am considering reevaluating after I get the full WotR set.

1) The pace is very fast, and I don't have a home group. I have limited time to get a group going and I'm a very busy person. I'll probably get a home group going again once I get more time.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I have a full time job and take a full time college course load. I run organized play locally and am doing a solo run of the base AP with Damiel when I have time, but it's pretty much the only gaming I'm doing right now (currently taking a break from the RPG). A lot of players have asked for monthly releases after Runelords and Paizo has been able to deliver, but with the extra content from organized play added in it can seem like a little too much too fast and I'm afraid I might get burnt out eventually.

Although I don't think the delay of Wrath until May was planned in any way, I'd really like to see a 2-4 month break in between sets to be a normal thing from now on. I think it can give both players and developers a chance to recharge and catch up with the current set.

Sorry if this is a little off-topic.


Sorry to say this, but the game simply isn't good enough for the investment, both in time and money.
My group has played through most of the RotR, and we're frankly getting bored. It's to easy, to repetitive, and there's other co-op games out there which we prefer.
We're nowhere near challenged, and has never even been close to loosing a scenario. Even if we were, we could just wait it all out and let the deck run dry, but that has never been necessary to even consider.
Co-op games live and die by the challenge they present, and RotR is simply to easy. Since that's what we have to judge the whole Pathfinder franchise on, we're not going to throw money after a new set.


Ability to keep up with the pace of the release schedule seems to be a common theme. Personally, my preference would be 1 adventure path released a year, using the extra development time to come up with really interesting variations on the mechanics and adding more theme so that each individual scenario (or at least adventure pack) stands out as unique. As I posted earlier, for me to keep buying future sets either the story and theme need to become more pronounced or the mechanics and gameplay need to be really unique between sets (preferably both).


BzAli wrote:

Sorry to say this, but the game simply isn't good enough for the investment, both in time and money.

My group has played through most of the RotR, and we're frankly getting bored. It's to easy, to repetitive, and there's other co-op games out there which we prefer.
We're nowhere near challenged, and has never even been close to loosing a scenario. Even if we were, we could just wait it all out and let the deck run dry, but that has never been necessary to even consider.
Co-op games live and die by the challenge they present, and RotR is simply to easy. Since that's what we have to judge the whole Pathfinder franchise on, we're not going to throw money after a new set.

I agree with your comments on the difficulty, but would also like to add that if future sets are made more difficult they need to be done so in a clever way. What I mean is not just making the dice rolls more difficult and adding more luck, but making the decisions needed to win less obvious and requiring more thought.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Regarding variety of scenarios: With Rise of the Runelords, we weren't sure how often we could depart from the basic "find, defeat, and corner the villain" scenario recipe. In retrospect, we could have changed it up it a lot more than we did. We do it a lot more in S&S and in Wrath, so if that's your primary issue, please check out some of the reviews posted online--I see pretty much universal agreement that we improved the diversity of gameplay with S&S.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Gandalf73 wrote:
BzAli wrote:

Sorry to say this, but the game simply isn't good enough for the investment, both in time and money.

My group has played through most of the RotR, and we're frankly getting bored. It's to easy, to repetitive, and there's other co-op games out there which we prefer.
We're nowhere near challenged, and has never even been close to loosing a scenario. Even if we were, we could just wait it all out and let the deck run dry, but that has never been necessary to even consider.
Co-op games live and die by the challenge they present, and RotR is simply to easy. Since that's what we have to judge the whole Pathfinder franchise on, we're not going to throw money after a new set.
I agree with your comments on the difficulty, but would also like to add that if future sets are made more difficult they need to be done so in a clever way. What I mean is not just making the dice rolls more difficult and adding more luck, but making the decisions needed to win less obvious and requiring more thought.

Again, read the online reviews of S&S; you'll find we've increased the difficulty and made it so that optimizing for combat is not always the best plan.

RotR has really really good reviews and ratings on boardgamegeek.com, but S&S has even better, and I think this is precisely the reason.


The pirate theme doesn't appeal to me.


The break-neck pace is at the point where I just can't keep up with each new release. That said, it has now broken me of the "gotta get them all" mentality. I do not feel inclined to pick up WotR simply because by the time I am caught up with S&S there might even be another base game to choose from.

The errata is expected, but discouraging. I will most likely wait for second printings in the future, although waning interest might mean single print runs and I get that as well, being a double edged sword and all.

As for OP, I can't keep up. Personal stuff comes up and I fall behind. In fact, I haven't even played in 4 weeks and I am not sure I can catch up to the rest of the group. If they choose to be nice I feel like I will be boring them redoing scenarios.

Oh well. Love the game. Look forward to what is released in the future.

EDIT: I feel stupid. I HAVE bought S&S, but perhaps my input is still useful for the product line at a whole.


I wanted to wait until the entire Adventure Path was available before purchasing. I couldn't wait, I got everything up to AP5 last week but AP6 will be owned soon enough.

When I put a game away, I have a bad habit of not playing it again for years, no matter how much I enjoyed it. This happend during my second run-through of RotR. I put the game away when I got a new game that I was dying to play and just never brought it back out. Poor Harsk, Seoni and Lem will never get to start AP3... (I played the newly purchased game twice and put it away too. Great game and I'll probably play it again in a few years.)

Anyway, I know that if I bought the base game to S&S I would likely only play through AP1 and put it away while waiting for AP2. I would still collect the rest of the scenarios but I probably wouldn't play them. Now I know I'll be able to start at the beginning and play through the entire path for 35 straight games.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

We actually love the pirate theme and the fleet aspects of Skull and Shackles. Swashbucklers, alchemists, and gunslingers, yay!

We do Not love the release schedule. RotR may have been too slow for some, but it was perfect for us.
There is every likelihood that we're going to start skipping every other AP just so we have time to play, replay, and generally enjoy what we already have.

Additionally, we were disheartened to learn that the cards from RotR, while technically compatible, were not usable with the new set.
Obviously, you cannot make Everything an expansion of the base game. But one adventure path and done forever was more than a little off-putting.

Cheers.
-Vic


These are my reasons:

The pirate theme does not appeal to me personally, so this is one of the reasons I have passed on the S&S set.

I also find the monthly release schedule just too fast for me not only from a game play point, but from a cost standpoint as well. It is a large financial outlay for me. The RotR release schedule was perfect for me.

I have the full collection of the RotR AP, but am still unhappy with the amount of errata and errors in the card printing, as well as having to work really hard at making sure that I have all 1st edition printings. I consider my RotR set incomplete, as I will order the errata cards from drivethrough. This is just added expense for an already large capital outlay. I have invested so much in this AP already, I may as well complete it. It irks me that the drivethrough cards will be a different size from my 1st printing cards that I worked so hard at getting. I understand why they are a different size. It just means I have to now go through the expense of purchasing sleeves for the set now.

I will carefully consider any purchase of the new WotR AP. I will not purchase it outright until I have seen the amount of errata. Thematically WotR theme is something I am excited about, so I am really hoping that Paizo delivers on making sure that errata and incorrectly printed cards are kept to a minimum.

My purchase will also depend on including more theme, such as story cards, maps and other thematic elements that can enrich my gaming experience and build a more engaging world and story.

I will also be hoping for a similar mechanic as the Lord of The Rings LCG Easy/Normal/Nightmare mode, but this is just a wish list on my behalf, so will not be a deal breaker.

In ending, I really do enjoy the PACG experience, and am REALLY hoping that Paizo can deliver a solid WotR AP that address my experience and concerns that I had with RotR AP.

I understand that RotR it was a completely new product and concept for Paizo, so I supported it through it's growing pains.


Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For me it is a couple things first of all time to play different games. I just got my complete RotR and have as yet to finish that all the way. Second is money I just can't afford a whole new box set plus all those sets. if I could buy the base cards then the addition that is a lot more doable for me to do in my limited military retirement pay.


The only reason that I have the S&S base set that I received it as a gift, and I purchased the character add-on pack. Currently I have no plans for additional adventure packs in the near future, and it's almost 100% sure that I will skip WotR.

For S&S, I think I think should like it... the increased difficulty, new characters, bigger variation of cards and scenairos etc. There are many positives. But somehow it can't keep me interested, and I didn't even finished the AP0 scenairos yet.

I think the release plan is too ast for my taste, and organized play seems to be the only reason which could justify it with a regular group. But we don't have that.

There are several things to consider :

1. Cost : Buying everything released for PACG in one year is a lot of money for basically one boardgame plus expansions, even without the optional addons like the playmats. (I don't really consider new boxed sets as completely new games, only new campaigns) I could buy several completely different games for the same cost.

2. Time : simply put, I won't finish as many scenairos as released per month. I have a good amount of game time, but it's divided between boardgames, computer games and the ocassional tabletop RPG. Even if money wouldn't be an issue, I never buy games to just it idly on my bookself.

3. Boardgame mentality vs. RPG mentality : In a tabletop RPG even a good adventure path is played only once with the same group. For a good boardgame you want to play it again and again, especially if there is good replayability - provided by random cards and a great host of playable characters in PACG.

For WotR I have an additinal reason to pass : I don't like the original adventure path, and in my eyes the mythic rules are the worst thing ever released by Paizo to the tabletop RPG.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Strickhouser wrote:

The break-neck pace is at the point where I just can't keep up with each new release. That said, it has now broken me of the "gotta get them all" mentality. I do not feel inclined to pick up WotR simply because by the time I am caught up with S&S there might even be another base game to choose from.

The errata is expected, but discouraging. I will most likely wait for second printings in the future, although waning interest might mean single print runs and I get that as well, being a double edged sword and all.

We had to reprint RotR because we vastly underestimated demand and because there was almost a full year between the sellout of the RotR Base Set and the launch of S&S. Now that we have a better sense of the market, and the channel is not in danger of being completely empty, we should no longer need to reprint Adaventure Paths.


Vic, I see a lot of this thread agree that that the release schedule is too aggressive. Is that something Paizo is willing to address?


I purchased S&S but have canceled for the next one. It's just too expensive to buy two full sets a year.

I will probably resubscribe for digital if/when Obsidian catches up with Paizo's release schedule on WotR, maybe even right away as I have no great love for setting up/tearing down for each play session.

This also means I won't have to worry about card backs being different colors, how to handle multiple parties (all that sorting or ignoring cards? No thanks), errata get fixed instantly, no more storage of huge boxes, and presumably will be cheaper than the hard copy, unless they want to sell zero copies. So far I only play solo, and the digital format is something I am very glad to see coming.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

emky wrote:
Vic, I see a lot of this thread agree that that the release schedule is too aggressive. Is that something Paizo is willing to address?

All I will say for now is that we have not made any annoucements beyond Wrath Adventure Deck 6 yet.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
emky wrote:
Vic, I see a lot of this thread agree that that the release schedule is too aggressive. Is that something Paizo is willing to address?

I personally do not understand the notion that too aggressive is bad. This only applies to people who are subscribed and opt for promo cards.

Wouldn't it make sense just not to subscribe, and just buy the adventure decks when you do have the time and reach the point where you want to play the adventure deck? That way you are getting the content when you feel like progressing?

I guess there is the subscriber's discount as well, but other than that, this is the thread of those who didn't buy and why. This doesn't mean there are more people that agree than disagree about the release schedule.

What if subscribers can opt to not get the current month's release, but still be able to get a discount and promo cards when they do purchase the Adventure deck. As long as they were already subscribed the time the content was released, their discount applies. or something similar?

With that said, I do agree that the price for a complete Adventure Path is pretty steep. A $60 base set only has 8-10 scenarios, and you can't even use the role cards by just playing the base set. You need to invest $100 more to finish the story and have the full experience. But compared to MTG, PACG has been more gentle to my wallet.


I have found these responses an interesting read.

As someone who will be 50 later this year I was involved when all the tropes that many of the respondents seem to think of as Fantasy 'Canon' were being developed, they were all new once. I remember when the thought of a dark elf was groundbreaking :)

To see such resistance to a (slightly) new take on a traditional fantasy setting is unsettling.

Not trying to be negative and accuse you lot of being being recalitrants (even if demonstrably true Ha!) But if you did enjoy ROTR get out of your bubble and try S&S. I promise you its a better product.


bbKabag wrote:
emky wrote:
Vic, I see a lot of this thread agree that that the release schedule is too aggressive. Is that something Paizo is willing to address?

I personally do not understand the notion that too aggressive is bad. This only applies to people who are subscribed and opt for promo cards.

Wouldn't it make sense just not to subscribe, and just buy the adventure decks when you do have the time and reach the point where you want to play the adventure deck? That way you are getting the content when you feel like progressing?

I agree with this if the only consideration is cost, as I agree people can just opt to purchase when they are ready and those that are can enjoy the faster release schedule. However, an overly aggressive release schedule can also have an impact on quality. Personally, if the choice is a faster release schedule with each new set more of the same with just a new setting and some small changes in gameplay versus a slower release schedule but each new set having more of a unique feel with significant changes in gameplay and much richer theme (e.g. more story text included) then I would much prefer that approach. Of course, it is possible to have the best of both worlds but I'm not sure from what I've read so far that is the case. I've not yet played S&S so I can't speak from firsthand experience, but many of the threads on BGG say that it is a little more difficult and some more variety in scenarios, but not a drastic change from RotRL.

Scarab Sages

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bbKabag wrote:
Wouldn't it make sense just not to subscribe, and just buy the adventure decks when you do have the time and reach the point where you want to play the adventure deck? That way you are getting the content when you feel like progressing?

Clearly, a lot of people are doing just that...hence the reason why this thread was started. Paizo is likely wondering why S&S didn't sell in the same numbers that Runelords did, and the answer for many people is that they are simply going to skip certain sets if there are going to be about two per year.

This doesn't put me off, but it does for some. The one thing they could do that would make me stop purchasing the game entirely would be if they went with randomized booster packs of some sort...I'm not giving patronage to any card game of that sort, ever.


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I do not yet know if I will play S&S. I am a bit late to the PACG world - picked up the RotR base set at xmas to see if my older boys (age 10) would like it. They do - we're currently on deck 4 with 5 & 6 waiting in the box. We also have the character expansion, but haven't played any of them yet. I predict that when we're done, we will play through again, possibly with different characters.

I do not know if the pirate theme will appeal to them - it is quite possible that it will. If not, and they're not bored of the game yet, we'll probably try out WotR. But first we'll try out some of the other fan-produced adventures for RotR. The boys are already disappointed to know that it just ends after #6. And they'll barely be able to get to use the cool loot acquired during the last scenario. We'd probably buy into more adventures for the RotR line. I'm considering some of the character decks as well.

I'd like to stress how important the Adventure Guide produced by Neil and Bryon is to us. We read it before and after every scenario - the kids always remind me. It helps set the stage...otherwise it is all a bit vague. You really should produce something like this for the game. I was originally looking for something like D&D or Dragon Age without as much setup work or a DM (which would have to be me). PACG is very close to ideal for what they need at this age, but would benefit from a richer story. FWIW, We've never played the Pathfinder RPG (had never heard of it before finding PACG).

I should also add that I have been very annoyed by the card-printing snafu. I've purchased everything from Amazon and have a mix of printings. This is frustrating both when shuffling and from getting hints about what is coming next. I understand that sh$t happens, but after spending >$150 on the game, it is a constant irritant. Please don't let that happen again.

Hope that helps!
Chris

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
bbKabag wrote:
emky wrote:
Vic, I see a lot of this thread agree that that the release schedule is too aggressive. Is that something Paizo is willing to address?

I personally do not understand the notion that too aggressive is bad. This only applies to people who are subscribed and opt for promo cards.

Wouldn't it make sense just not to subscribe, and just buy the adventure decks when you do have the time and reach the point where you want to play the adventure deck? That way you are getting the content when you feel like progressing?

I guess there is the subscriber's discount as well, but other than that, this is the thread of those who didn't buy and why. This doesn't mean there are more people that agree than disagree about the release schedule.

What if subscribers can opt to not get the current month's release, but still be able to get a discount and promo cards when they do purchase the Adventure deck. As long as they were already subscribed the time the content was released, their discount applies. or something similar?

With that said, I do agree that the price for a complete Adventure Path is pretty steep. A $60 base set only has 8-10 scenarios, and you can't even use the role cards by just playing the base set. You need to invest $100 more to finish the story and have the full experience. But compared to MTG, PACG has been more gentle to my wallet.

Actually, it affects retailers. They purchase product and where you had 1 year to sell RotR, now you have 6-7 months to sell S&S. On top of people being turned off by starting over and some turned off by the Pirate theme (ARRR!), you now have product sitting on the shelves. Then comes WotR and more product to put on the shelves. And it isn't moving. That's a scary thought to retailers.

Plus with the more aggressive release, you have people that probably won't finish S&S AP before WotR comes out. I'm not sure we'll be able to finish the Season of the Shackles OP beforehand. Then we start purchasing WotR. Maybe we jump to that because it's new. Now I have RotR and S&S sitting on my shelf. RotR has no more content. S&S isn't finished and also has no more content. It's a cycle that leaves a bad taste in gamers' mouths. You can't compare board games to MtG. A lot (not all) of Magic players get consumed and only play that. While board gamers have varied interests. And it seems like a lot of people on this board are soloing. That doesn't generate a lot of cross-interest with others. You want other people to play. You want them to love the game so they buy it and pass it along to others.

So if you factor in product sitting on retailers' shelves because they anticipate too much interest, the cost of the game and its' accessories (mats, sleeves, etc.), the strong possibility of not finishing the current AP with groups, and the potential for burnout, it's not just subscribers that are affected by the aggressive release schedule.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

That's an angle I never even thought of. Thanks, Theryon.

Thinking about it now, if Wrath was already released at the time we started playing PACG we would probably have skipped S&S just because of the theme.

About the MTG comparison, I wasn't comparing the games; just how much money I've spent on them. Plus I don't consider PACG a board game. It could have been, but I think it works out that its 100% cards.


One thing I will say that I somewhat regret about buying Skull and Shackles (I absolutely HAD to have this version because I love the sea and ships and sea animals) instead of Runelords is that the characters are not NEARLY as backwards-compatible. Looking them over, you MUST use cards from S&S for the S&S characters or they are no good. The Runelords characters are very much able to be used in this version of the game but not so in reverse.
In the future, I will carefully look over characters before I buy the set they come in. I want the full package when I purchase, not just the game itself, but the ability to use that game's pieces (characters, etc.) with other sets of the game. I see each new game as a sort of expansion. Yes, it is a new entire adventure, but I would LOVE to have a favorite character that I play in all of them.
I do appreciate the class decks as I think this somewhat alleviates the problem.
That being said, I am shocked and APPALLED that people do not like the pirate theme... okay not so much that they don't like the pirate theme, but the SAILING theme. How could you not love the roar of the waves, the rock of the boat and the sound of the dolphins?!?!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

Now that we're about to release the final installment of our second full AP, we're going to have data that lets us form a better picture of long-term play and purchase patterns. But all the sales data in the world won't tell us much about sales that didn't happen, so I'm coming direct to you for the answers.

If you're on these boards, you're clearly a fan of the card game, so if you haven't yet purchased the Skull & Shackles Base Set, please tell me why.

I'm not looking to judge you, just to learn from you, so please be candid.

Thanks!

We did purchase it. Spent over four hours trying to figure out how the game was supposed to be played.. gave up, and haven't touched it since. And among the group of us that were trying were two 5 star Judges.

By far, the worst experience I've ever had in a CCG... way too complicated to play and too many unclear implementations of mechanics.

A CCG should be a pick up and play game, not something that combines the worst parts of Magic the Gathering and Pathfinder.


Just started RotRL... So yeah.

Sovereign Court

Joseph Thea wrote:

One thing I will say that I somewhat regret about buying Skull and Shackles (I absolutely HAD to have this version because I love the sea and ships and sea animals) instead of Runelords is that the characters are not NEARLY as backwards-compatible. Looking them over, you MUST use cards from S&S for the S&S characters or they are no good. The Runelords characters are very much able to be used in this version of the game but not so in reverse.

In the future, I will carefully look over characters before I buy the set they come in. I want the full package when I purchase, not just the game itself, but the ability to use that game's pieces (characters, etc.) with other sets of the game. I see each new game as a sort of expansion. Yes, it is a new entire adventure, but I would LOVE to have a favorite character that I play in all of them.
I do appreciate the class decks as I think this somewhat alleviates the problem.
That being said, I am shocked and APPALLED that people do not like the pirate theme... okay not so much that they don't like the pirate theme, but the SAILING theme. How could you not love the roar of the waves, the rock of the boat and the sound of the dolphins?!?!

I think they did a pretty good job for the most part. The characters tend to have one role that fits S&S especially, and one that is good anywhere. Part of the reason Runelords characters play so well in S&S is that their set really didn't have much of a theme to focus character powers on. I think Runelords is always going to be the most compatible characters, and the only one that is fully compatible no matter what roles and powers you take.


Joseph Thea wrote:


That being said, I am shocked and APPALLED that people do not like the pirate theme... okay not so much that they don't like the pirate theme, but the SAILING theme. How could you not love the roar of the waves, the rock of the boat and the sound of the dolphins?!?!

I think the sailing aspect, especially ship combat is the most abstracted mechanism in S&S, and for me the way it was implemented don't feels like anything close what I hoped.

It's in itself interesting, that in naval combat your ship's capabilities don't count the slightest.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
bbKabag wrote:
About the MTG comparison, I wasn't comparing the games; just how much money I've spent on them. Plus I don't consider PACG a board game. It could have been, but I think it works out that its 100% cards.

Ahhh ... I was talking about the time cost. It is difficult to be a slave of two masters ... LOL I lump PACG into the category of board games when it comes to time to play a game.

As far as looking at this from a retailer's POV, it was one of the perspectives I mention when giving feedback to the PACG crew.


Most of the potential customers did not purchase SS, because there was no plunder die enclosed ;-)
But I fixed it, now you may all buy your base set ...


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Hearthstone.


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LazarX wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

Now that we're about to release the final installment of our second full AP, we're going to have data that lets us form a better picture of long-term play and purchase patterns. But all the sales data in the world won't tell us much about sales that didn't happen, so I'm coming direct to you for the answers.

If you're on these boards, you're clearly a fan of the card game, so if you haven't yet purchased the Skull & Shackles Base Set, please tell me why.

I'm not looking to judge you, just to learn from you, so please be candid.

Thanks!

We did purchase it. Spent over four hours trying to figure out how the game was supposed to be played.. gave up, and haven't touched it since. And among the group of us that were trying were two 5 star Judges.

By far, the worst experience I've ever had in a CCG... way too complicated to play and too many unclear implementations of mechanics.

A CCG should be a pick up and play game, not something that combines the worst parts of Magic the Gathering and Pathfinder.

Judging by the number of people that like playing the PACG games, you're not speaking for a majority. And it's not a CCG, I would say perhaps deck building RPG where all the cards are a finite complete and known set. It's basically an RPG in card form. But it's not the same as a CCG. Four hours? My wife who's never played any card games besides munchkin and is not a historical RPG player figured it out much quicker than that.

Perhaps if you were tyring to expect a CCG out of it is the reason it was confusing? It's not billed or advertised as a CCG. You're not buying packs and packs of cards trying to randomly find some good cards, all the cards self contained in the base set and adventure packs. Every base set and AP has identical cards. The complete set can be purchased easily. Except for the rare promo cards that are not "random" but available in limited quantities for subscribers and con attendees and are not required to play. After all it's modeled directly after the Pathfinder Adventure Paths of their namesakes. If this was a phone, you'd be holding it wrong.

It's like RPG battles and looting in card form. There's a story being told on the cards as well. I don't get why you think it's a CCG.


I own S&S, but I don't own ROTRL yet, because I just stumbled upon the game, then the guy at my FLGS explained it to me, fell in love instantly, and had to resist a terrible urge to buy the base set, all adventure decks, the add-on and class decks at once.

That being said, after taking a look at the release schedule, and reading the forums, I can understand why some people may have skipped it:

- The release schedule is too aggressive.
- The Theme may put off some people.

Because of those two reasons, I can guess that many people decided to skip this adventure path to properly finish ROTRL, and since most people prefer traditional fantasy settings, they are saving themselves for WOTR.

Also, because of the release schedule, even if the theme had been another traditional fantasy setting, the time commitment would be too much for most people, because it basically turns the game into a "lifestyle product".

I live in south america, so accounting for shipping and customs, the base sets cost 120 USD and each adventure deck costs 40 USD for me (and don't get me started on card sleeves and deck boxes to properly store it all).

But that is not the reason I'll get an adventure path a year, because while money is not an issue, I just don't have the time to play 2 adventure paths a year, even tho *I LOVE* the game.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Let me give you the perspective of someone who has purchased Skulls and Shackles, but not Rise of the Runelords.

I started late because in different groups, I am currently playing both of RotR and S&S RPG campaigns. I didn't want the card game to spoil the RPG for me. When I played, and saw that it wasn't really that spoilery, I decided I could play without ruining the RPG. I skipped RotR and bought S&S because I wanted to do Organised Play.

I subscribed starting with deck 2 of S&S, and I'm subscribed because I want the promos. I bought the base set, the character expansions and all of the character decks and the character mats. I have subsequently sold all of the character decks to people I play with so they and play the OP campaign with me. More than likely, I will buy all of the character decks again.

I'm in two regular gaming groups Mondays and Wednesdays. There is some overlap, but we are different groups playing different RPG campaigns. We play PAGC when our RPG falls apart for some reason (missing players etc.).

Those of us in both groups have literally just finished the deck 1 S&S OP scenarios. Guys who are only part of one of these groups have each played about half the deck 1 OP scenarios. We have not played the base game. I think at the rate we're playing I will have all of WotR before we finish playing S&S OP.

If that's true and the schedule remains the same, I will most likely cancel my subscription at that point. Money is not the issue, time to play is the issue, the current release schedule is way way too aggressive for the amount of play we actually accomplish.

I already have a cupboard full of board games that I don't have time to play. However much I love this game, and I like it a lot, I don't need PACG adding one board game a year to my overflowing cupboards, that I likely will never play until I'm retired (in 20 ish years time).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, I have a subscription to the card game I have the Rise of the Runelords boxed set, and all of the additions from the skin saw murders to the spires of xin shallast. While I like fantasy, I am not thrilled about pirates. I don't mind playing in a pirate game occasionally, but unlike Lodge from The Gamers Dorkness Rising, I do not think everything is better with pirates.

I have given my skulls and shackles boxed set and all of the expansions through from Hells Heart to a good friend who is running a pathfinder adventure card game table along with Pathfinder Society games.

I was happy with Rise of the Rune Lords, but wasn't thrilled with the pirates, the skulls and shackles theme so I gave it away. Right now i am considering wether to keep my subscription. I guess I am just not excited about the card game. What I enjoy is the company of the friends I play with, not necessarily the card game. Perhaps it is just the organized play version of the card game that I am not thrilled about.


Our group discovered PACG at PAX Prime 2013. Most of the group played eurogames but there were some role players as well. The novelty of ongoing deck construction and deck==health really seemed cool so early on we committed to having a regular group march through each adventure. There was a lot of excitement up through the 3rd adventure. We even had a lead figure painting party and I ended up writing an Android app to calculate PACG probabilities. I also picked up the Rise of the Runelords adventure path just so I could see what the complete story was about.

Around the fourth adventure it turned into a bit of a grind. It felt like we had little chance of losing and the only thing that kept us playing was character progression and the social aspect of getting together. It kind of felt like playing an MMO too long. In spite of this, if there was an adventure 7 and adventure 8 I'm sure someone would have bought it and the party would have kept going.

For me, in order to buy the new base set, skull and shackles would have had to have some major innovations. (in my judgement it doesn't) It couldn't just be the same thing with a few extra mechanics and a few tweaks. Also, the thought of buying the base set, and a bunch of expansions was a little daunting since we had just been through that. I can plop down $30-$60 for a complete eurogame that gives us many hours of fun.

Today, to scratch the cooperative game itch, we are playing Eldritch Horror, Robinson Crusoe and will likely start Dead of Winter.

I don't want to sound too negative. Our group had many hours of fun with PACG. It just got less fun as the adventures progressed.

One thing sets me apart from the other posters...I have nothing against pirates. :)


Just not enough gaming time to keep up. May buy very soon. Plus, I've been waiting to see if there are any reprint issues as with the first game.


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I was a huge fan of ROTR and I did buy S&S and the first few scenario decks, but sadly S&S really didn’t do anything for me. I don’t think the shift in design and mechanics ended up working for me. I enjoyed ROTR because it felt like a good old-fashioned dungeon bash. There was great synergy between the different characters and I liked the setting and theme.

I thought the same would be true of S&S but I found its increased difficulty (with the emphasis on overcoming tasks rather than opponents, so characters lost their 'identities' by having to spread their upgrades thinly to cope with the breadth of checks) coupled with rather faffy mechanics (don’t really like how the ships were done – and all the other extra game elements (swashbuckling trait, umpteen million allies…) and characters that didn’t feel like they had any synergy at all) meant that I sadly stopped purchasing the scenario decks.

I think, in truth, my experience was somewhat marred by the delays and problems at release, not having the character add on deck when I started play, class decks coming late – and so on. That really put a dampener on the experience for me.

I’m not sure about WOTR. Part of me wonders if it will be more of a return to the good old ROTR gameplay that I enjoyed, but I suspect – in an effort to make every AP unique – lots of ‘new stuff’ will be added to it (the mythic thing for one) which will probably dilute the experience for me. I’ll keep checking the boards for updates for certain.

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