Hazic Kel-Kalaar

Iff's page

** Pathfinder Society GM. 248 posts (4,871 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 20 Organized Play characters. 15 aliases.


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Thank you both for the suggestions. Very helpful and much appreciated.

- I don't think Druid will work for me all that well. The anathema means I can't wear heavy armor, and getting Wis 14 will put Cha 18 out of reach. In that case, the Cha probably wins out to strengthen the primary caster function of the oracle.

- I looked for Tiefling in particular because the orc ancestry feat at level 5 didn't seem that interesting. But taking Orc superstition (which itself conflicts with Battlefield persistance) does open up the excellent pervasive superstition.

- Very good point on the background. I think I'll swap to Martial Disciple, and take Intimidating Prowess at level 4.

- Reading some more about the action economy of the Battle Oracle, haste indeed looks very good!

- Still really torn on the weapon choice. I can see the value of greatsword and staff, but it does mean Athletics and tripping will not be an option. Reach and trip will be immediately useful, while the bastard sword gives a bit more damage upfront and the possibility to wield a staff at later levels. I'll think it over a bit more and go with gut feeling.

- Any thoughts on the level 2 feat and possible archetype? I'm currently drawn to Sorcerer Dedication with a primal bloodline. That will give me two primal cantrips keying off Charisma. Very useful for attack spells in the early game, where the divine list is lacking. They will be good at least until level 7, when casters go up to expert in their own tradition. It also gives two extra skills, which is never bad, and the opportunity to cast primal spells (such as battle form spells) from scroll if needed.

I could use some help with a character build for PFS. The concept has been in my mind for quite a while, but I didn't find a good way to represent it: I want a spellcaster with divine (or maybe primal) spells, with a sizeable melee presence. Ideally I'd find a way to squeeze in the Animal Form spell, for when I really want to go full melee for a fight. Background is a Matanji orc character, who's fought demons and is now joining the Pathfinder Society to gather more knowledge. I usually prefer characters with a bit of Charisma, to be useful in 'roleplay' situations.

I first tried a warpriest of Kazutal, but didn't like the tradeoff in choices I had to make. The machete is not a very good weapon, I lacked the stats for fighting+casting(+healing), etc. I've also looked at using a Wild druid as a basis, but that strayed quite a bit from my concept.

Here's what I've got so far, using a Battle Oracle. I've got a reach weapon to get at least one attack per turn. This can be combined with a spell, or with things like Intimidate and an assurance trip attempt. I don't expect to do full martial dps, but I want to get in at least one decent hit per turn. And when needed I could cast animal form for a boost in combat stats. Unsure what my 2nd level class feat could be. The Oracle options don't seem all that impactful. Reach spell? Looking as archetypes, Mauler dedication could give me weapon specialization, but only after level 11. Blessed One adds some out-of-combat healing, Fighter opens up Attack of Opportunity somewhere down the line.

Looking for some suggestions and thoughts on this build. Will this 'work' in practice, or am I spreading my stats and actions too thin and disappoint myself?

Ancestry: Orc, tiefling heritage. Orc Ferocity feat
Background: Warrior -> Intimidate, Intimidating Glare
Class: Battle Oracle. Polearm weapon group. Fauchard as prefered weapon for reach and trip.
Stats: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16
Skills: Athletics, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Warfare lore, Medicine, Religion, Survival
Mystery Domain spell: Might

Level 2: Dedication feat (???), Assurance Athletics
Level 3: Athletics expert, Toughness
Level 4: Divine Access (Cernunnos: True strike, animal form, lightning bolt), Powerful leap
level 5: Str 18, Con 16, Wis 14, Cha 18. Intimidation expert, Fiendish resistance

Cantrips: Guidance, Stabilize, Divine Lance, Prestidigitation, Rousing Splash
1: Bless, Heal (Signature), Magic Weapon (swapped out for True strike at level 4)
2: Animal form, Spiritual weapon, Calm emotions
3: (haven't looked this far yet)

Michael Sayre wrote:
Iff wrote:
Does anyone know whether the playtest classes will be available in PFS? How would that work, it they’re allowed?
They'll be available during the playtest window following the standard organized play playtest rules, which are down at the bottom of this page.

Awesome, thanks for the answer!

Does anyone know whether the playtest classes will be available in PFS? How would that work, it they’re allowed?

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I've received notice that part 6 of Agents of Edgewatch has shipped for me. Because of that, could you please cancel my subscription? I'll have enough adventure to run for the time being.

Thank you.

Congrats to the ones who were selected, I hope you all have a grand adventure.

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It's interesting that no one's mentioned so far a type of play where this is commonly seen: PbP. It's the medium where you can always add inner monologue, both for your own sense of character and to create a better narrative for the other players. The good part about doing this in PbP is that it doesn't really break immersion at all, in my opinion. It feels really natural to interleave it with actions and conversation.

Thanks, folks. It's good to know I hadn't just dreamed that up.

My sincere condolences, Mike.

I think you might be mistaken: the recruitment still runs for another week, if I read that correctly. It was only posted last Friday, and the GM might have been busy with other things this weekend. I think they'll be back to answer questions.

I'm interested in applying as well, have a few concepts floating around in my head.

I remember reading something about the 'hook' for this adventure, but I can't find it anymore. Could anyone confirm whether this is true, or whether it's something that my imagination conjured up? Might be a possible spoiler, so see below.

I got the impression from somewhere that this adventure is about an ailment that only afflicts humans. Therefore, the PC's are supposed to play non-humans, and that is also the hook that gets them into the adventure.

Cool, it's an interesting way to gage interest. Just one question for my curiosity: would you have been fine running any of them? You don't have your own preference for what kind of campaign to run, at all?

Here's my character for consideration. I haven't created an alias yet, but understood from the first post that this should be OK. Thank you for the opporunity.


Yenet is a Vigilante with the Avenging Beast archetype. He's good with a bow, but also not afraid to mix it up in melee combat if needed. He can provide a bit of support to the party in terms of Quick Aid and some spells.

Yenet is a man of humble origin, a caravan driver from Osirion. Three years ago he was captured into slavery. He was promptly transitioned through Absalom, precisely when slavery was abolished there. Though free, he did not have any coin to sustain himself or to purchase passage back home. He settled in the Puddles district and found that it quickly became home to him. His kindness for animals and his small skill in healing (acquired dealing with animals, but also useful with people) got him a good reputation with the local people. He wanted to lay low and not cause trouble, but also couldn't turn a blind eye to the crime and squalor around him. Therefore, he crafted a falcon mask and took to the streets in disguise to protect the common folk. His work found approval with Horus and Ra, who granted him a small measure of magic through the mask he had created.

Even though he works as a vigilante, Yenet likes to cooperate with local officers of the law. He is familiar with Talib Abd al-Abadar, to whom he has delivered a captured criminal once to bring to further justice. He also shares some rumours with the Abadaran, on occasion. Yenet has grown comfortable with his secret identity and the work he can do while wearing the mask, but he is not so happy to work alone. He misses the camaraderie he used to find while working in caravans, and he’s also apprehensive about investigating some bigger issues on his own: the Lucky Harpy burning down is one of them, and he is worried about the implications of various factions trying to take control of the power vacuum.


Yenet Axeirion / The Shining Falcon
Male LN/LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Initiative +3; Senses -; Perception +8

AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +3 Dex, +1 Dodge)
hp 24 (3d10+3)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +6;
Defensive Abilities +4 AC against AoO’s from movement

Speed 25 ft.
Melee MW Greatsword +6 (2d6+3, 19-20/x2)
Ranged MW composite longbow +6 (1d8+2, x3)
Special Attacks Power Attack, Deadly Aim

Strength 14 (+2), Dexterity 17 (+3), Constitution 13 (+1), Intelligence 10 (+0), Wisdom 14 (+2), Charisma 10 (+0)
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats 1 Precise shot, 1B Dodge, 2B Swift aid, 3 Weapon focus (heavy blades)
Skills 4 points per level, +1 human, +1 fcb. -3 Armor check penalty (except for Climb and jump) checks.
Acrobatics +4/+7 (1 rank, 3 class, 3 Dex, *-3 ACP except when jumping)
Climb +6 (1 rank, 3 class, 2 Str)
Heal +8 (2 ranks, 3 class, 2 Wis, 1 trait)
Intimidate +6/+10 (3 ranks, 3 class, *4 vigilante)
Knowledge local +5 (2 ranks, 3 class)
Knowledge nature 4 (1 ranks, 3 class)
Perception +8 (3 ranks, 3 class, 2 Wis)
Sense Motive +8 (3 ranks, 3 class, 2 Wis)
Spellcraft +4 (1 ranks, 3 class)
Survival +6 (1 ranks, 3 class, 2 Wis)
Handle animal +6 (3 ranks, 3 class)
Lore Puddles +3 (3 ranks)
Traits Caretaker (+1 Heal, class skill), Friend to animals (+1 Handle animal and Ride, Handle animal is class skill)
Languages Common, Osiriani
SQ race Bonus feat, Skilled
SQ class Dual identity, Seamless guise, Animal mask (falcon), Hunter spellcasting, Patron (elemental), Unshakable (add class level on DC to intimidate me),
SQ Social talents Renown (in the Puddles in social identity, NPC’s that are at least indifferent start one attitude category better, +4 on Intimidate on Vigilante identity), Social grace (Heal, +4 bonus while in social identity)
SQ Vigilante talents Team player (Gain Swift aid as bonus feat ignoring prerequisites. Also, can use as standard action to apply on every adjacent ally)

Orisons (unlimited, DC 12)
Create water, detect magic, light, purify food and drink, read magic, stabilize

1st level (4/day, DC 13)
Aspect of the Falcon, Lead blades, Shocking Grasp, Liberating command

Weapons MW greatsword, sap, cold iron dagger, MW composite longbow [+2], 20 arrows, 20 blunt arrows
Armor Artisan’s outfit, MW Agile Breastplate
Slotted Items +1 cloak of resistance
Backpack Brawler’s kit, healer’s kit, assorted consumables (to be determined, should I be selected)
Belt Pouch 432 gp
Stored items -

I’m currently a player in one longer campaign (Age of Ashes), and one PFS scenario. I occasionally pick up an extra PFS scenario to play, but will usually limit myself to three of four games at any time.
My timezone is GMT+2. I usually post in the evening on weekdays and check on during the weekend as well.

Yes, I'll have him done by Sunday for sure.

Thanks for the info, Talienda. I think I've got an idea for a martial character. Here's the gist for review, before I work out all the details.

My proposed character is a Vigilante with the Avenging Beast archetype. He's a man in his late 40's of humble origin, a caravan driver. He was captured into slavery and promptly transitioned through Absalom when slavery was abolished there. Though free, he did not have any coin to sustain himself or to purchase passage back home. He settled in the Puddles district (or the Precipice Quarter, whichever works better), and found that it quickly became home to him. He wanted to lay low and not cause trouble, but also couldn't turn a blind eye to the crime and squalor around him. Therefore, he crafted a falcon mask and took to the streets in disguise to protect the common folk. He found that his work attracted the attention of a divine patron, which granted him a small measure of magic through the mask he had created. He's good with a bow, but also not afraid to mix it up in melee combat if needed.

Mechanically, the feat tax rules allow me to invest some feats in ranged combat while also being decent in melee. I think he'd come out as a switch-hitter with just a smattering of magic to augment his battle prowess; spells like Aspect of the Falcon and Gravity Bow.

Kudos to you and the entire group for finishing the module, that's always a satisfying feeling. I've skimmed over the Gameplay thread, and I really like the care everyone takes in their posting. I might be interested in joining, if I can come up with a character that fits your narrative.

Before I dig further into creating a PC, is there anything the party currently lacks? With a bard, melee inquisitor and sorcerer, this seems like the basis for a well-rounded party already. No clear gaps in skills as well? Any role in particular you'd like filled, either combat-wise of in party dynamics?

I think the problem here is not with the prerequisites or with Syncretism, but with the way Deadly Simplicity is worded: "When you are wielding your deity’s favored weapon, increase the damage die size of that weapon".

I think this is meant as following, but due to word count they didn't future-proof this enough:
"When you are wielding your deity’s favored weapon [that is simple, by virtue of the prerequisites], increase the damage die size of that weapon".

I think the RAW answer here is that this works as your player says, but I could very well understand if you're uncomfortable with this interaction and would ask him to play it differently.

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Yours. The other one seems nonsensical to me. What would happen if you were interrupted after 30 minutes? The healing for those previous three checks suddenly won't be doubled any more? Or do you roll six times but only apply all healing after the hour is up? That doesn't compute.

SuperBidi wrote:
He will not even heal one through mundane means.

I agreed with this post quite a bit, but you lost me here. Why would you not heal a follower of the Laws of Mortality through mundane means?

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Aratorin wrote:
That being said, a lot of players, myself included, enjoy mechanics and strategy more than RP, and mechanically, Divine Healing only negatively impacts Mortal Healing if it happened within the previous 24 hours.

I don't agree with this. The way I see it, there's two requirements for Godless healing. The first is the requirement that you mentioned: it refers to the target of your Treat Wounds, and whether they've received divine healing.

However, this is separate from the requirement on the PC with the feat: the prerequisite for taking the feat is to follow the Laws of Mortality. You might personally get more enjoyment out of mechanics than RP, but this feat has a RP restriction that's mechanically implemented through the feat's prerequisites. You should be willing to abide by those if you take the feat.

(Is there still a rule that you lose the benefit of a feat if you no longer satisfy the prerequisites? Or is this a PF1 rule that didn't carry over explicitly?)

Hello Mowque, that’s a nice coincidence. As you know I’ve been thinking about running a solo game myself, but experiencing it from the player side first seems worthwhile. And I like the set-up of this one.

Here’s the character concept I’ve been thinking about:

Character concept:
This idea began from me wanting to have my cake and eat it too: I wanted a merciless Chelaxian,but also someone who could relate to the Andorans with more sensitivity. Someone who was good at fighting but also initially reluctant to do so, aka the Retired Badass trope.

Things seemed to come together when I considered a vigilante with two different personalities, but I ultimately didn’t stick to that. However, that put me on the track of re-using a character from an old Council of Thieves game, a kind Tiefling cleric of Shelyn. This could be an alternate take on that character: what if things had turned out different for her?

That said: I’m working on a Daring Champion cavalier with the Order of the Dragon. She’s a tiefling who spent a tough childhood on the streets of Westcrown until she was recruited in the Chelaxian army as part of a special ‘hit squad’. She took to fighting with the glaive and flirted with Shelyn’s faith, in a mocking way initially. It even earned her nicknames like the Bloodletting Bard. Her faith wasn’t real, but the camaraderie she experienced was. She became good at what she did and grew fond of being with like-minded individuals, until all the bloodshed got to her. After a galvanizing event (to be determined), she couldn’t take it anymore. She fled Cheliax in order to live a life without violence, maybe dedicating herself to Shelyn in a proper sense. Until events force her to head into battle once more...

There’s a thing I want to run by you first: To make my envisioned fighting style work, I’d like to pick up the Bladed brush feat without being a proper follower of Shelyn (yet). I don't intend to take Slashing Grace and fully twink out the character, but I'd like the 'crunch' to fit my idea of a dexterous and mobile Glaive-fighter.

That's a very interesting way of recruiting! I'd be up for a roleplay-heavy adventure like War of the Crown.

I usually like to tailor my characters specifically for the campaign they're meant for (background, personality, goals and stats), but I think I could brush off one or two old ones that I might see fitting in a setting like this. Give me a day to mull it over and get 'back in character' with a suitable one, then I'll pop into gameplay.


I'm in two Outpost games (both for PF2) that have been running a bit slow. I don't think they'll be done by next Monday. Does anyone know what this will mean for reporting? And possibly for the AcP? Can we finish in our own pace?

I expressed interest earlier, but will have to bow out.

Cool, I'd be up for that. Creepy is good. :) I asked because I'm less into full-on horror, gore, torture, etc.

I've got some ideas already, will post when one of them is starting to come together.

This idea has piqued my interest. Would be nice to see how it plays to bring a character to life without leaning on class abilities and such.

One question about the tone of the setting: Are there any (many) horror elements? In asking because of the nightmare reference. Also, do you have an indication of the adventure length?


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I really liked the idea of the flip tiles because they allow for more variety compared to flip-mats. However, my experience with running Lost on the Spirit Road was not ideal. A few of the suggestions I would make have been made already, but I'll place them here anyway in case scenario writers are reading along.

All of this in my opinion, of course:
- Tiles work best for small maps, when only a few need to be placed. That also helps separate their use compared to (large) flip-mats.
- Having more than one encounter with tiles in a scenario is stretching it. Re-using tiles for different encounters of the same scenario is a definite no-go!
- Limit the amount of packs needed for any single scenario, to make the buy-in more palatable.
- I haven't needed to use them for running a game online, but easy copy-paste would definitely be a plus!


No. At least, not at the moment. In the future, Paizo might come out with a document that details which parts of the module (if any) will be legal for Society play.


Your GM might be referring to the following text from p. 451 in the Core rulebook.

The GM might allow you to roll the dice twice and double the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties instead of doubling the entire result, but this usually works best for singletarget attacks or spells at low levels when you have a small number of damage dice to roll.

As far as I know, the PFS guide does not list any additional rules on critical damage. That means that the default would be doubling of what you rolled. However, the above would work out just as well, in my opinion. The rulebook explicitly gives the option, after all. What seems most important is for the rule to be clear and consistent at the table.


I haven't got a lot of data, but I also have the impression that PF2 runs quicker. However, there's one factor that might play a role to skew out perception so far: All the PF2 scenarios have been low-level, which generally take less time than a higher-level scenario (as might still be run for PF1).


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Thomas Graham wrote:
My issue is the time sensitive part of the play test is just a month or so..the PFS element, if any, should have been fooled out at the same time. While I’d like a chance to play test I fear the current backlog won’t enable it

I fear the worst as well, given the short playtest period. If it had been included, they could have made an announcement simultaneously. What disappoints me, is that PFS inclusion didn't get any attention in the blog, not even "stay tuned for more info". Just, nothing...


When trying to report my progress for PFS2 on pfstracker, I'm not seeing labels for the columns to differentiate GM / play.

For PFS1 scenario, I see four columns of checkboxes that are labeled at the top, between GM/player and Core/Regular. However, those labels seem to be missing for the PFS2 entries.

Is that a known problem, or something on my end? I'm using Chrome, version 77.0.3865.90. I could provide a screenshot if needed.

Congrats to those who were selected. I hope you all have a great adventure.

I've always been very interested in Hell's Rebels, but never got the opportunity to play it. Now that you're converting it to 2E, that would be just perfect. Here is my submission.

Preben Natale
Ancestry: Human (Skilled)
Background: Urban Sleuth
Reason to protect: Staying up on current affairs
Class: Ranger
Role: Melee (Strength-based), skills
Class choices: Hunter's Edge Flurry, Class feats: Animal companion and Twin Takedown (bonus feat from Human Ancestry feat)

Preben is the youngest son in a successful merchant's family. Being so much younger than his siblings, he didn't have a clear role in the family, or in the business. The result was a good education, little obligations and lots of freedom, which Preben used to ask always questions, to sometimes get them answered, and to occasionally get into trouble. He's a Caydenite at heart, to the point where he has named his pet dog - a great Dane - Tankard. The two are inseparable, or as Preben would say: "A true follower of Cayden is never without a Tankard at his side."

Diabolism and the rule of Thrune has never agreed with Preven, but they seemed somewhat distant nuisances in his life. This changed when Barzillai came to power: The man's fondness for large dogs felt like a personal affront to Preven, and when the Thune claimed the opera house for his own that just added insult to injury. Preben has been trying his hand at satirical cartoons to push back against the new lord-mayor and his ridiculous proclamations, but hasn't taken action beyond that. He hasn't thought about actual rebellion, but given the chance he'd jump on it.

This question got me reading gnome weapon familiarity.


You favor unusual weapons tied to your people, such as blades with curved and peculiar shapes. You are trained with the glaive and kukri.

In addition, you gain access to all uncommon gnome weapons. For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial gnome weapons are simple weapons and advanced gnome weapons are martial weapons.

This makes a gnome Trained with the Kukri, but doesn't give access (like it does for gnome weapons). That means that a kukri-wielding gnome would still need some way to get access to the weapon, apart from taking this feat for proficiency? Is that correct?

The ShadowShackleton wrote:
)."Note the words "as normal for Sneak" and that you ONLY determine whether enemies notice you AS PART OF the initiative roll.

I do not agree with that statement, especially the second part of that sentence. The very first line of Avoid Notice reads "You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed". Note that it doesn't mention encounters at all. And that's the basis of the rule, as far as I'm concerned: if someone wants to Avoid notice, there's a Stealth check. And depending on the result and the intent, there may never be an encounter.

The part you quote only matters when it's been decided that you definitely will have an encounter.

Edit: Also, you've already made a seperate thread on the Unnoticed part. I think it has no relevance here. Maybe it's best to keep that discussion over there?

I've thought about this, and here's some scenarios with how I would see them. My main point will focus on the intent of Stealthing parties. If they intend just to sneak past (which might trigger an encounter depending on the Stealth result), that's different from the intent to attack (which will trigger an encounter regardless of the Stealth result).

1 - PC trying to avoid guard
A lone rogue is trying to sneak past some guards, while his fellows are hiding behind some buildings. We're in Exploration Mode, and the situation might call for encounter mode. The Rogue uses Avoid Notice (p. 479) which calls for a (secret) Stealth check:
=> If he rolls below the guard's Perception DC, he's spotted. This is either Hidden or Observed, depending on Failure/Critical Failure. We're in encounter mode and all of the others (guard and other PC's) roll initiative. The rogue uses his Stealth check as initiative. Everyone realizes the jig is up, and can act in Initiative order.
=> If the rogue succeeds at Stealth vs. the guard's Perception DC, he's still unnoticed. The rogue sneaks past the guards, and they never knew he was there. We are still in exploration mode.

2 - PC trying to attack guard from stealth
Same scenario as above, except the rogue's player indicates that he wants to attack the guards from stealh. We're still in Exploration mode, but it's clear that an encounter is going to happen. That means the rogue rolls stealth, everyone else rolls Perception.
=> Rogue goes first and clears the guard's Perception DC: He's undetected and can act first, attacking with all the benefits that gives.
=> Rogue goes first, but doesn't clear the guard's Perception DC: The rogue is Hidden/Observed, and realizes the jig is up. He can still strike first.
=> Guard goes first, Stealth doesn't succeed. The guard realizes something is up, and is the first to react. He might Seek, Raise Shield, etc.
=> Guard goes first, Stealth succeeds. (I've bolded this one, because it's the iffy bit.) The guard doesn't realize something is about to happen, so he doesn't act on his initiative. In essence, he delays until he realizes an encounter is happening.
=> Stealth succeeds, but other PC goes first. (Also interesting.) The cleric hiding behind the corner gets a very high initiative. It would seem sensible that the player delays until the rogue has made his move (or the guards call out that they spotted someone). I agree that Readied actions should not be allowed. After all, the characters would not know they're in encounter mode yet. The benefit of a high initiative is to be the first to react once the encounter is started in earnest.

Scenario 1 reversed, ninja in Stealth to scout PC's.
The PC's are exploring a building. Somewhere there's a ninja in hiding, trying to learn about the PC's. She won't attack unless spotted. There might be an encounter, or not.
=> The PC's walk close without Searching. The ninja is never detected. Everyone stays in Exploration mode.
=> The PC's walk close while searching. The GM makes a secret Perception check for the PC's. If this clears the ninja's Stealth DC, they spot her. Either they can attack (prompting initiative from everyone) or do something else. If the Perception check doesn't clear the ninja's Stealth, see above. The ninja is never detected, and exploration mode continues.

Scenario 2 reversed, ninja in Stealth waiting to strike.
The PC's are exploring a building. Somewhere there's a ninja in hiding, waiting for the opportune moment to strike. Once the PC's come close enough, there will definitely be an encounter. The Ninja rolls Stealth, everyone else rolls Perception.

=> Ninja goes first and clears the PC's Perception DC: She's undetected and can act first, attacking with all the benefits that gives.
=> Ninja goes first, but doesn't clear the PC's Perception DC: The ninja is Hidden/Observed, and realizes the jig is up. She can still strike first.
=> PC's go first, Stealth doesn't succeed. The PC's realizes something is up, and are the first to react. They might Seek, Raise Shield, etc.
=> Some of the PC's go first, but Stealth succeeds. (I've bolded this one again, because it's the iffy bit.) The PC's don't realize something is about to happen. If you favor symmetry between PC's and NPC's, all of them delay until after the ninja has acted. If you see the PC's as the center of the story (they have Hero Points after all, another thing which sets them apart from NPC's), they might get an idea that 'something is wrong'. Give them three actions before the ninja attack.

Scenario 3 - Both sides stealthing
A few kobolds are in ambush, waiting for the PC's. The PC's have been ambushed before, and send out their rogue alone in hiding. The kobolds will attack anyone they see. The rogue is only interesting in scouting. We're in exploration mode. The rogue is using Avoid Notice, and we might have an encounter. As soon as they are at range where they might detect each other, both sides make a secret Stealth check vs. the other side's Perception DC.
=> Kobolds succeed in Stealth, rogue doesn't. The kobolds spot the rogue. Depending on their Stealth/Initiative roll, they go first. (If the rogue goes first, the GM has a choice. Either he gets a 'spidersense' warning him of danger and allowing three actions, or the GM puts him in delay until after the kobolds act.
=> Rogue succeeds in Stealth, kobolds don't. The rogue finds out where the kobolds are, without being noticed. He stated the intention just to scout, so no encounter happens.
=> Neither side succeeds at Stealth. Both sides see each other. Encounter mode, order decided by Stealth/Initiative.
=> Both sides succeed at Stealth. Neither side notices the others. The rogue can conclude (wrongly) that there's no ambush and report back to the party, or he might press on. If he wants to go around actively searching for the kobolds, he could by using the Search exploration activity. However, in this case he'd be spotted by the kobolds (triggering an encounter), because he has to stop 'Avoid Notice'. Alternatively, he might continue using Avoid Notice while walking around, until a point where the GM calls for a new Stealth check on both sides (maybe with modifiers based on who is where, and how good their cover/concealment is. If the rogue happens to walk around the boulder where the kobolds are hiding, it'd be suitable to say their Stealth fails automatically)

It's quite a bit of text, but I believe this should cover all of the scenarios I've thought of. For me personally, I don't mind a bit of asymmetry between PC's and NPC's and I will give player's with high initiave the chance to take their three actions if they roll high for initiative, even if they have no clue what's about to happen.

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Xenocrat wrote:

My statement is exactly correct, because as you acknowledge they would have the hidden condition, and the hidden condition means "I know what what square you are in."

Hidden, CRB 466 wrote:
A creature that’s hidden is only barely perceptible. You know what space a hidden creature occupies, but little else.
You appear to have confused Hidden with Undetected (something is hiding somewhere, but I don't know where) which is distinct from Unnoticed (no clue that anything is hiding).

Ah, you're right. Indeed, still getting to grips with the new terminology. Thanks for the correction.

Xenocrat wrote:
So Scent ability is an automatic "I know what square you are in" ability unless the character has (1) a plausible...

This is not correct, as far as I can tell. At least, not for an animal companion's ability, which is imprecise scent. It tells you someone it "there", but not "where".

In an attempt to answer the original question. Imprecise scent would automatically notice that someone/something was present, triggering initiative (barring special measures taken by the hiding creature, as discussed above). However, imprecise scent does not cause the sneaking creature to lose the hidden condition.

The difference between scent and hearing from what I understand, is that someone sneaking would usually try to avoid being heard (triggering Sneak vs. Perception DC), but would not actively try to hide their smell (which would make imprecise scent automatic at detecting someone (though they would still be hidden until a Seek action is performed).

Two runes are two sources. Therefore, you can only make ONE extra attack in your turn.

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I can agree with that, to a certain extent. (Very few people would like a game that requires a MsC economics to grok).

Would it help to consider that the Downtime rules in the Core book are two parts of a larger subset of rules? One part is for any person who wants to use Craft to generate income. That's where you find out how much money you make per day. The abstraction here is what exactly you're making, and how'd you sell that to buyers. There's crafting involved, but for the purpose of 'making money' that part is handwaved. (I for one am glad that I can just set a Task level, and don't have to worry about whether anyone in village X would be willing to buy crafted item Y, at marketprice or any percentage thereof).

The other part is the rules for Crafting items. These seem specifically geared not to people making items with the goal of making profit, but those adventurers who want to make unique, exotic or one-off items for personal use. They won't care if it's cheaper or moreover expensive than buying them off the shelf, in this case. That's the underlying assumption I see to the crafting rules! I see them as a model of Crafting for a specific purpose (which I suppose who be the most useful for adventurers, hence it's in the core rulebook.)

Any parts not covered here might appear in further books, or would have to be devised by GM's who want more granularity to their world economics.

KapaaIan wrote:

Now the part that's straight up malarkey though is the crafting cost of magic items. There's literally no approximation that makes sense for why crafting a magic item which a character has all the requirements for (e.g. able to cast the right spells) would cost them market price (in cost or personal labor which is functionally the same thing).

As I see it, that's a reaction to the PF1 rules, where crafting could be an enormous multiplier to a party's WBL. To the point where many groups (including, but not limited to) PFS just ditched it.

For PF2, the goal is different. Crafting isn't a way to make money, but to gain items you might not have otherwise.

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That a natural effect of porting an interactive game to an offline medium. There are some benefits (easier to look up rules, easier to portray thoughts and mannerisms), and some drawbacks (not as easy to have quick back-and-forth conversation, having to fiddle around with reactions.) Still, people have been dealing with that on the boards for quite some years, and I think it won't be a big problem. Just something to be aware of, and work with as best as possible.


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Cool idea!

Hand them out a mini candy bar for each treasure bundle found, and watch them squirm knowing they can't touch them until the end of the scenario when you tally up how many they found. >:)

More seriously. Maybe you can find some faux-gold coins to represent each treasure bundle, and hand them a box at the start of the scenario to store the in. Maybe a wooden jewelery box?

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Hmm, I don't quite like that inconsistently between the Drow's ability and that of a rogue.

However, let me address the point about using the rogue's ability first. I think that, like any reaction, a GM will have to accommodate this. He should be aware of his PC's reactions and give the opportunity to use them. This goes for Dodge, AoOs and the ability to counterspell, for instance. For PbP, several tweaks are needed to ensure that combat goes smoothly. I would ask my players to post about possible reactions they have beforehand, and when they would like to trigger them. That way, I can take them into account during the enemy's turn without having to wait for players to post again.

Coming back to the drow text: I find it awkward that an ability would give an AC bonus in reaction to a hit of crit. Can this retroactively cause the attack to miss, or become a regular hit? Meh... I would have liked t see them stick with the regular Nimble Dodge reaction.

Indeed, players can make some assumptions based on the GM's description of the enemy in question. Beyond that, I would borrow/extend theRecall knowledge action. For instance, I could see Lord Warfare (or perhaps Perception) as a very suitable skill to roll to get an idea of a specific enemy's tactics and combat abilities.

Indeed, but that makes me hopeful that this (or something like it) makes it to the first round of FAQ/errata. Apologies for derailing the thread.

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QuidEst wrote:
Unarmed strikes are supposed to scale with your simple weapon proficiency

Has this been confirmed by the devs? If so could you link it, because that'd be very good to know. Or is this just your assumption/opinion worded as fact?

Here's the basic choices for my goblin character, and the thought process behind it. My primary choice still to be made is between Cloistered Cleric and Warpriest. We have a fighter and a rogue already, and we're a bit light on casters. That means I'm drawn more to Cloistered cleric. The lack of armor is a bit scary (especially when I view her as being the slightest bit careless), but I think that's manageable. I want a good Wis and Cha, so I wouldn't have a lot of points to put in Str/Dex anyway for melee.

- I want Wis 16 and Cha 14. The rest should go to Dex for defenses and some others to round out the character.
Ancestry: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, +2 Wis.
Background: +2 Dex, +2 Wis
Class: +2 Wis
Free: +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha.
Result: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 14.

Ancestry choices
For my heritage, I initially looked at Charhide, to tie in with the Haunting Vision background. However, it seems more fitting to have fire be something of a weakness for her, rather than something she's learned to deal with. Instead, I'll go with Razortooth goblin, giving me a decent backup weapon that works with my high Dexterity.
For my ancestry feat, I'll pick Goblin lore. I like having a good selection of skills, and having Goblin Lore seems especially fitting for the adventure we're going on.

No choices here, besides stats. I get Trained in Religion and Dahak Lore. (Religion overlaps with the skill Training from cleric, which means I'll have an extra free choice at that time). Also, I get the Student of the Canon skill feat.

I had already picked Desna as a deity, and decided on cloistered cleric. This gives me Acrobatics, a healing font (3/day), and Domain Initiate. Desna gives a choice of four domains, with focus spells of various nature. At this moment, I'm drawn to the dream domain which gives the Sweet dream focus spell.

So far, I'm trained in Nature, Stealth, Goblin Lore, Religion, Dahak Lore, and Acrobatics. To round out the list, I have four extra choices. I'd like to pick up Medicine and Diplomacy. Craft seems worthwhile as well. That leaves one open, depending on what we're lacking as a group. I could see Deception and Intimidation working, as might Thievery, or additional Lore skills.

I can swap spells around on a daily basis, but it seems useful to have a list of go-to spells for getting a grip on the character.
Cantrips (5): Daze, Divine Lance, Guidance, Light, Prestidigitation, Shield, Stabilize.
1st level (2): Bless, Fear, Sleep, Ray of enfeeblement, Heal (free from healing font), Create water (possibly on scroll, due to her relation with fire)


Thank you for wanting to run two tables. I'm really happy to be selected. Will have the framework for the character drawn up later today.

Did you mean dice rolling for all of us, or just Steve since he asked about it? (My personal preference would be the standard method from the book for my character, but I don't mind others rolling the dice.)

Edit: just to say that I would go along with dice rolling, if that's what you/we want for the entire group.

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