Treat Wounds after 1 Hour


Rules Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Okay, I'm splitting this debate from the Anathema and Organized Play (Laws of Mortality in particular) thread since we really got off the original topic.

This particular thread is about how much you heal after 1 hour with Treat Wounds:

Treat Wounds wrote:

Exploration, Healing, Manipulate

Source Core Rulebook pg. 249
Requirements You have healer’s tools.

You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose). The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour, but this interval overlaps with the time you spent treating (so a patient can be treated once per hour, not once per 70 minutes).

The Medicine check DC is usually 15, though the GM might adjust it based on the circumstances, such as treating a patient outside in a storm, or treating magically cursed wounds. If you’re an expert in Medicine, you can instead attempt a DC 20 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 10; if you’re a master of Medicine, you can instead attempt a DC 30 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 30; and if you’re legendary, you can instead attempt a DC 40 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 50. The damage dealt on a critical failure remains the same.

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

The result of your Medicine check determines how many Hit Points the target regains.

Critical Success The target regains 4d8 Hit Points, and its wounded condition is removed.
Success The target regains 2d8 Hit Points, and its wounded condition is removed.
Critical Failure The target takes 1d8 damage.

Taja's view is:

You spend 10 minutes and make your Medicine check
If you succeed, you roll the appropriate hit points to restore.
If this is not enough to fully heal your target, you can choose to extend this action for another 50 minutes to heal a total of twice what you rolled.

Aratorin's view is:
You spend 10 minutes and make your Medicine check
If you succeed, you roll the appropriate hit points to restore.
If this is not enough to fully heal your target, you can spend another 10 minutes and make another check, rolling the appropriate HP to restore.
If you do this for a full hour, the total amount you healed for those 6 checks is doubled.

Which (if any) reading is correct?


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Yours. The other one seems nonsensical to me. What would happen if you were interrupted after 30 minutes? The healing for those previous three checks suddenly won't be doubled any more? Or do you roll six times but only apply all healing after the hour is up? That doesn't compute.

Radiant Oath

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My interpretation is the former- you work for ten minutes, heal X amount and you can spend the next 50 minutes continuing the same treatment to heal an additional X amount.

I hadn't even considered the alternative until Aratorin posted it, and thinking about I don't believe it is a correct interpretation. I think if interpreted in that way it would make Continual Recovery largely irrelevant since "you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing" doesn't specify it has to be an hour, so if you can roll every ten minutes then that is functionally the same as the Feat. It also would result in massively excessive healing, as even a first level character Trained in Medicine is likely is likely to heal more than twice the injured party's hit points after 6 tests doubled.

It seems to me that being able to extend to an hour to double the amount of a regular treatment allows for characters to received extra treatment at the end of the day, so they start fresh, it's not supposed to be an efficient method of healing.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The target is temporarily immune to TW for one hour, which seems specifically to prevent consecutive checks. So... I don't think you get to make consecutive checks.


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The first interpretation is correct for the Treat Wounds action.

Aratorin's interpretation is the effect of the Continual Recovery feat.

Liberty's Edge

EDIT: Original changed because I missed a sentence.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Okay, I'm splitting this debate from the Anathema and Organized Play (Laws of Mortality in particular) thread since we really got off the original topic.

This particular thread is about how much you heal after 1 hour with Treat Wounds:

Treat Wounds wrote:

Exploration, Healing, Manipulate

Source Core Rulebook pg. 249
Requirements You have healer’s tools.

You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose). The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour, but this interval overlaps with the time you spent treating (so a patient can be treated once per hour, not once per 70 minutes).

The Medicine check DC is usually 15, though the GM might adjust it based on the circumstances, such as treating a patient outside in a storm, or treating magically cursed wounds. If you’re an expert in Medicine, you can instead attempt a DC 20 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 10; if you’re a master of Medicine, you can instead attempt a DC 30 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 30; and if you’re legendary, you can instead attempt a DC 40 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 50. The damage dealt on a critical failure remains the same.

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

The result of your Medicine check determines how many Hit Points the target regains.

Critical Success The target regains 4d8 Hit Points, and its wounded condition is removed.
Success The target regains 2d8 Hit Points, and its wounded condition is removed.
Critical Failure The target takes 1d8 damage.

Taja's view is:

You spend 10 minutes and make your Medicine check
If you succeed, you roll the appropriate hit points to restore.
If this is not enough to fully heal your target, you can choose to extend this action for another 50 minutes to heal a total of twice what you rolled.

Aratorin's view is:
You spend 10 minutes and make your Medicine check
If you succeed, you roll the appropriate hit points to restore.
If this is not enough to fully heal your target, you can spend another 10 minutes and make another check, rolling the appropriate HP to restore.
If you do this for a full hour, the total amount you healed for those 6 checks is doubled.

Which (if any) reading is correct?

By the the wording of the action, neither is right.

Taja's reading is correct. This is part of the edit
An attempt is made. If is successful, the appropriate hit points are restored.

Regardless of the failure or success of the check, the target of the Treat Wounds is immune from ANY other treat wounds for the next hour (60 minutes) unless the same character continues the treatment. The action is not extended for 50 minutes nor can you Treat Wounds every 10 minutes, short of the feat Continual Recovery and then only on Treat Wounds action that the character with the feat attempts.

Period.
Thanks to thenobledrake for helping me with my reading!!


Gary Bush wrote:
By the the working of the action, neither is right.

The sentence you appear to have missed from the Treat Wounds actions is this one:

Treat Wounds wrote:
If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

Liberty's Edge

thenobledrake wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
By the the working of the action, neither is right.

The sentence you appear to have missed from the Treat Wounds actions is this one:

Treat Wounds wrote:
If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

You're right, I did miss that!! Learned something new!!!


Nice to post 2 points of views without the supporting arguments and then just pile on...

Quote:

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the

target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total
of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

This does 2 things.

1. If I succeed at my check, I can continue treating them to gain additional healing. I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.

2. If I continue to succeed on my checks, and I continue to make them for a total of 1 hour, I double the Hit Points they regain. If I only treat them for 20 minutes, they only gain the benefit of those 2 rolls, no doubling.

It does not make the countdown period pointless. If I treat you for 10 minutes, and then we have another fight, and you need more healing, we have to wait for the hour to elapse.

Also, if you fail you have to stop.

If it only used the original roll, it would say something like "You can increase the time this activity takes from 10 minutes to 1 hour to double the amount of HP granted."

Your reading is basically the same as the text not existing, as nobody would ever choose to do it.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aratorin wrote:
I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.

This feels like a really big logical leap instead of just concluding, as the text itself says, that you're spending the additional time to double the healing you did.


Squiggit wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.
This feels like a really big logical leap instead of just concluding, as the text itself says, that you're spending the additional time to double the healing you did.

There's no leap when it's the only possibility. If your only options are Spending 10 Minutes, or Spending 1 Hour, why is it worded in such a way that you can spend a different amount of time?

"If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds."

That sentence is meaningless if an hour is your only extended option.

But nothing I say is going to have any relevance. This topic was framed unfairly from the get go. By the time anyone makes it to the post containing my actual viewpoint, they will have already formed their opinion based on the way Taja framed it in the original post.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Aratorin wrote:

Nice to post 2 points of views without the supporting arguments and then just pile on...

Quote:

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the

target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total
of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

This does 2 things.

1. If I succeed at my check, I can continue treating them to gain additional healing. I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.

2. If I continue to succeed on my checks, and I continue to make them for a total of 1 hour, I double the Hit Points they regain. If I only treat them for 20 minutes, they only gain the benefit of those 2 rolls, no doubling.

It does not make the countdown period pointless. If I treat you for 10 minutes, and then we have another fight, and you need more healing, we have to wait for the hour to elapse.

Also, if you fail you have to stop.

If it only used the original roll, it would say something like "You can increase the time this activity takes from 10 minutes to 1 hour to double the amount of HP granted."

Your reading is basically the same as the text not existing, as nobody would ever choose to do it.

I have in my Age of Ashes game a medic with Continual Recovery. I know from experience how much healing 6 straight Treat Wounds checks puts out (especially considering how trivial it is to have Assurance high enough for a guaranteed 2d8 healing per check). You say no one would ever choose to continue treating wounds for an hour and I'll counter by asking why anyone would take Continual Recovery if Treat Wounds already does it baseline (as per your interpretation).


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Aratorin wrote:
1. If I succeed at my check, I can continue treating them to gain additional healing.

Correct.

Aratorin wrote:
I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.

Incorrect. This sentence explicitly says to double the result you already got - it does not prompt you to roll more times.

Aratorin wrote:
If it only used the original roll, it would say something like "You can increase the time this activity takes from 10 minutes to 1 hour to double the amount of HP granted."

The sentence present in the rules literally is something like the one you've provided as an example.

specifically the "you can continue treating the target..." and "if you treat them for a total of 1 hour..." are the "you can increase the time this activity takes from 10 minutes to 1 hour" part - and the "...to grant additional healing." and "...double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds." are the "to double the amount of HP granted" part.

Aratorin wrote:
Your reading is basically the same as the text not existing, as nobody would ever choose to do it.

That's false. Many situations exist in which a player would choose 1 hour of treatment and a doubled result over 1 hour and 10 minutes of treatment for two independent roll results.

Here's an illustrative example: You get a critical success and roll high so you restore 25 HP if you call it good at 10 minutes of treatment. But your patient could use doubling that to 50 HP... or you could try your luck and also spend extra time and maybe you get the same, or even better result, but you are likely to get less HP to your patient.

So if you don't have something more pressing to be doing with the intervening 50 minutes (such as treating other patients) you have a solid incentive to do exactly what you have claimed no one ever would.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aratorin wrote:

"If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds."

That sentence is meaningless if an hour is your only extended option.

How is that sentence meaningless when it's specifically telling you what happens?

Quote:
But nothing I say is going to have any relevance.

I guess this is a convenient way to protect yourself, at the very least.

Liberty's Edge

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Aratorin wrote:

Nice to post 2 points of views without the supporting arguments and then just pile on...

Quote:

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the

target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total
of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

This does 2 things.

1. If I succeed at my check, I can continue treating them to gain additional healing. I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.

You're literally quoting the relevant mechanic. "You can continue treating the target" which allows you to "double the Hit Points they regain." That's it. That's the mechanic. Roll to Treat Wounds. Succeed, and 10 minutes later, you've healed X hp. At that point, you can decide to continue for another 50 minutes to heal X hp again - or decide not to do that, and don't.


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thenobledrake wrote:

The first interpretation is correct for the Treat Wounds action.

Aratorin's interpretation is the effect of the Continual Recovery feat.

Second This!


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Aratorin wrote:

"If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds."

That sentence is meaningless if an hour is your only extended option.

It isn't meaningless because that hour of treatment can be interrupted.

Not interrupted = double HP gained
Interrupted = normal HP gained

Sczarni

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Squiggit wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
But nothing I say is going to have any relevance.
I guess this is a convenient way to protect yourself, at the very least.

I disagree with Aratorin's interpretation, too, but there's no reason to be uncivil about it.

Liberty's Edge

Aratorin wrote:

Nice to post 2 points of views without the supporting arguments and then just pile on...

Quote:

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the

target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total
of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

This does 2 things.

1. If I succeed at my check, I can continue treating them to gain additional healing. I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.

2. If I continue to succeed on my checks, and I continue to make them for a total of 1 hour, I double the Hit Points they regain. If I only treat them for 20 minutes, they only gain the benefit of those 2 rolls, no doubling.

It does not make the countdown period pointless. If I treat you for 10 minutes, and then we have another fight, and you need more healing, we have to wait for the hour to elapse.

Also, if you fail you have to stop.

If it only used the original roll, it would say something like "You can increase the time this activity takes from 10 minutes to 1 hour to double the amount of HP granted."

Your reading is basically the same as the text not existing, as nobody would ever choose to do it.

You reading it wrong.

Quote:
If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

emphasis mine

The word "total" is significant and should not be over looked. It relates to the original check. If treatment continues for 1 hour, doubling the Hit Points is automatic. There is no implied re-roll. If the player wants to take a full hour, they get the benefit of double healing with only the initial roll.

What your trying to do is get the benefit of Continual Recovery without taking the feat. There is a reason why Continual Recovery is in the game.

You are correct. If the party was to enter combat again after 10 minutes, they could NOT attempt new Treat Wounds until an hour had passed. It can be dangerous. Treat Wounds is not the new cure light wounds wand.

If the GM wants to change how Treat Wounds work, they can but the rules as written are pretty good here.


Gary Bush wrote:
Aratorin wrote:

Nice to post 2 points of views without the supporting arguments and then just pile on...

Quote:

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the

target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total
of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

This does 2 things.

1. If I succeed at my check, I can continue treating them to gain additional healing. I have to make rolls to do this, as there is no other mechanic in the ability to grant additional healing.

2. If I continue to succeed on my checks, and I continue to make them for a total of 1 hour, I double the Hit Points they regain. If I only treat them for 20 minutes, they only gain the benefit of those 2 rolls, no doubling.

It does not make the countdown period pointless. If I treat you for 10 minutes, and then we have another fight, and you need more healing, we have to wait for the hour to elapse.

Also, if you fail you have to stop.

If it only used the original roll, it would say something like "You can increase the time this activity takes from 10 minutes to 1 hour to double the amount of HP granted."

Your reading is basically the same as the text not existing, as nobody would ever choose to do it.

You reading it wrong.

Quote:
If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

emphasis mine

The word "total" is significant and should not be over looked. It relates to the original check. If treatment continues for 1 hour, doubling the Hit Points is automatic. There is no implied re-roll. If the player wants to take a full hour, they get the benefit of double healing with only the initial roll.

What your trying to do is get the benefit of Continual Recovery without taking the feat. There is a reason why Continual Recovery is in the game.

You are correct. If the party was to enter combat again...

I don't feel that you are understanding my view. You are absolutely correct that the word total is important, and that you only get to double the healing if you continued treatment for a total of 1 hour.

I simply disagree about what "continue treating the target to grant additional healing" means.

"Treating the target" means making checks.

This does not negate Continual Healing at all, as Continual Healing is still very important if you fail any of your checks.


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I've read the whole thread and I agree with Taja.


Aratorin wrote:
This does not negate Continual Healing at all, as Continual Healing is still very important if you fail any of your checks.

I'm confused as to how failing a check and succeeding at a check are being treated as interacting differently with "You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose). The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour..." in such a way that failing would mean needing Continual Recovery to roll another check, but success means you're allowed to keep making - and benefiting from - checks during the time you are temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions unless you have Continual Recovery.

Can you explain?


thenobledrake wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
This does not negate Continual Healing at all, as Continual Healing is still very important if you fail any of your checks.

I'm confused as to how failing a check and succeeding at a check are being treated as interacting differently with "You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose). The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour..." in such a way that failing would mean needing Continual Recovery to roll another check, but success means you're allowed to keep making - and benefiting from - checks during the time you are temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions unless you have Continual Recovery.

Can you explain?

Yes, because you have to succeed at your check in order to be able to continue treating.

Quote:
If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

So, if you succeed at your initial 10 minute check, you have the option to continue treating for another 10 minutes. If you succeed at that check, you have the option to continue treating for another 10 minutes.

If you fail any check, your Treat Wounds session ends, and if it has been less than an hour (less than 6 checks), you restore only the total of the checks.

If it has been at least an hour (6 or more checks) you regain the total * 2.

The cooldown timer starts at the beginning of the session and lasts for 1 hour.

So if you succeeded at 2 rolls, and failed at the third, your Treat Wounds Session is now over. You spent 30 minutes Treating Wounds, so now you have to wait 30 more minutes to try again.

If you had Continual Recovery, you could try again immediately.

Verdant Wheel

Taja has the correct of it.

If you want to be able to rapidly heal in a short amount of time, a PC needs to become an Expert in Medicine and learn how to apply Continual Recovery.

Treat Wounds:

Treat Wounds

You spend 10 minutes treating one injured living creature (targeting yourself, if you so choose). The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour, but this interval overlaps with the time you spent treating (so a patient can be treated once per hour, not once per 70 minutes).

The Medicine check DC is usually 15, though the GM might adjust it based on the circumstances, such as treating a patient outside in a storm, or treating magically cursed wounds. If you’re an expert in Medicine, you can instead attempt a DC 20 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 10; if you’re a master of Medicine, you can instead attempt a DC 30 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 30; and if you’re legendary, you can instead attempt a DC 40 check to increase the Hit Points regained by 50. The damage dealt on a critical failure remains the same.

If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds.

The result of your Medicine check determines how many Hit Points the target regains.

...

The language is incredibly clear:

Treat Wounds wrote:

The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour, but this interval overlaps with the time you spent treating (so a patient can be treated once per hour, not once per 70 minutes).


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Aratorin wrote:
Yes, because you have to succeed at your check in order to be able to continue treating.

So the additional checks you claim happen are not "Treat Wounds actions" which the rules specify you are temporarily immune to? They are somehow simultaneously the first-and-only Treat Wounds action and also produce the effects of additional Treat Wounds actions?

The immunity doesn't care whether you have succeeded or failed. It's 1 hour normally, and 10 minutes with Continual Recovery.


thenobledrake wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
Yes, because you have to succeed at your check in order to be able to continue treating.

So the additional checks you claim happen are not "Treat Wounds actions" which the rules specify you are temporarily immune to? They are somehow simultaneously the first-and-only Treat Wounds action and also produce the effects of additional Treat Wounds actions?

The immunity doesn't care whether you have succeeded or failed. It's 1 hour normally, and 10 minutes with Continual Recovery.

They are part of the same treat wounds activity, yes. Continuing the treatment is a part of the activity.

For a minute there I legitimately thought you might so "Ok, I understand now. I disagree, but I get it."

But you went back to being a jerk instead.

rainzax wrote:

Taja has the correct of it.

If you want to be able to rapidly heal in a short amount of time, a PC needs to become an Expert in Medicine and learn how to apply Continual Recovery.

** spoiler omitted **

The language is incredibly clear:

Treat Wounds wrote:

The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour, but this interval overlaps with the time you spent treating (so a patient can be treated once per hour, not once per 70 minutes).

I agree that the language is clear, just that it says something different.

I do understand your interpretation, I just disagree with it.


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Okay, cool - I think it's 1 Treat Wounds action with 1 set of roll results that definitely takes 10 minutes but if successful can be extended to 60 minutes to double the single set of roll results.

But because you think something different and I don't get how are reconciling up to six sets of results as still just one action, and I question it instead of just I dunno... shutting up, I guess, I'm "being a jerk."


thenobledrake wrote:

Okay, cool - I think it's 1 Treat Wounds action with 1 set of roll results that definitely takes 10 minutes but if successful can be extended to 60 minutes to double the single set of roll results.

But because you think something different and I don't get how are reconciling up to six sets of results as still just one action, and I question it instead of just I dunno... shutting up, I guess, I'm "being a jerk."

It's not your ideas. It's the way you post them. I never said to shut up. You asked my to clarify my view, which I did.

You then proceeded to respond with all kinds of dismissive phrases like "you claim happen" and "They are somehow simultaneously the first-and-only Treat Wounds action and also produce the effects of additional Treat Wounds actions".

This comes off as extremely condescending, hostile, and not open to other views.

Even in threads where I agree with you, like the Wild Empathy thread, the way in which you engage with those who have a differing view is unpleasant.(not that n n was being any less unpleasant)

Admittedly, my own responses to you aren't always pleasant, but that's because your responses always feel like personal insults.

Verdant Wheel

Aratorin,
I know this thread probably feels like 10 against 1 - indeed it is! - but I am seeking to understand your point of view.

The text I bolded upthread - which in my opinion settles the dispute, and to which you site disgreement with - is "...so a patient can be treated once per hour...":

Is the source of our disagreement the functional definition of the word "treated"?


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Aratorin wrote:
This comes off as extremely condescending, hostile, and not open to other views.

Tone is a thing you choose when reading.

At least, until you get to words like "But you went back to being a jerk instead." which carry a connotation of insult with them.

I've never attacked you, or anyone else on this forum, personally. I've only ever participated in discussions.

Me disagreeing with you is not me mistreating you.

I even don't fire back with personal insults when they are levied at me. Yet you say it's me that's the one out of line. Think about that, please.

And while you never told me to shut up, you also haven't really presented any other option for me since you've arbitrated that my posting is out of line by default.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I asked this question myself several months back. I shared Aratorin's view at the time.


rainzax wrote:

Aratorin,

I know this thread probably feels like 10 against 1 - indeed it is! - but I am seeking to understand your point of view.

The text I bolded upthread - which in my opinion settles the dispute, and to which you site disgreement with - is "...so a patient can be treated once per hour...":

Is the source of our disagreement the functional definition of the word "treated"?

Kind of, but I think it's more than just one word. Let me try to elaborate and see if that helps.

Treat Wounds is an Exploration Activity.

Activities are made up of a series of subordinate Actions.

A Treat Wounds Activity starts with you making a treating Action, which takes 10 minutes. The results of the treating Action determine how many hit points are restored.

The Activity has a clause that says that if the results of your treating Action is a success, you can continue treating. So you make a second treating Action, which takes another 10 minutes. This is still part of the same Treat Wounds Activity, just as the second Strike is still part of a Double Slice Activity.

Every time you get a success on a treating Action, you are given the option to continue treating.

Once you complete the Treat Wounds Activity, either by failing a treating Action, or by choosing to stop, you add up all of the results from the treat Actions.

If the Activity lasted for at least an hour, you double that total. Otherwise, you just use the total.

As stated in the Activity, the patient is immune to any other Treat Wounds Activities for 1 hour, starting at the beginning of the Treat Wounds Activity.

However, that does not make it immune to the Subordinate Actions within that first Activity.

If you added a Rider to Double Slice that made the Target immune to Double Slice for an hour, you would still get both Subordinate Strikes.

Yes, I know this is much more verbose than the ability as written. I am essentially decompiling the source text into its underlying mechanics to illustrate my point of view.

Scarab Sages

Ravingdork wrote:
I asked this question myself several months back. I shared Aratorin's view at the time.

You mentioned the Continual Recovery feat in your post. Aratorin has presented the viewpoint that you can treat someone 6 times in 1 hour without that feat, as long as you keep succeeding at the roll. Is that the viewpoint you share?

Count me in the 10 minutes for one roll, then 50 minutes to double that initial roll. You can’t make another roll until the hour has passed, unless you have the Continual Recovery feat. Whether or not 6 consecutive treatments using the continual recovery feat should all be doubled, I don’t know. But my guess would be no, as they are all individual uses of Treat Wounds.


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I'm not seeing "activities are made up of a series of subordinate actions" anywhere in the rules. Can you provide a citation?

What I do see is "Usually, an activity uses two or more actions and lets you do more than a single action would allow" which Treat Wounds satisfies because there is no single action use of medicine it isn't do more than in regards to restoration of HP, and "All tasks that take longer than a turn are activities." which doesn't mandate that multiple checks or the like be involved.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like a case of squares and rectangles: anything with a subordinate action is an activity (square), but not all activities involve subordinate actions (rectangle).

Verdant Wheel

Aratorin,
You wrote:

"The Activity has a clause that says that if the results of your treating Action is a success, you can continue treating. So you make a second treating Action, which takes another 10 minutes. This is still part of the same Treat Wounds Activity, just as the second Strike is still part of a Double Slice Activity."

Bold emphasis mine.

Is the source of our disagreement the functional meaning of the word "treating" here?

(Where I think it means "If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds" and you think it means "You can continue to roll additional checks so long as you don't fail"?)


rainzax wrote:

Aratorin,

You wrote:

"The Activity has a clause that says that if the results of your treating Action is a success, you can continue treating. So you make a second treating Action, which takes another 10 minutes. This is still part of the same Treat Wounds Activity, just as the second Strike is still part of a Double Slice Activity."

Bold emphasis mine.

Is the source of our disagreement the functional meaning of the word "treating" here?

(Where I think it means "If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds" and you think it means "You can continue to roll additional checks so long as you don't fail"?)

Yes. I find it very hard to believe that the intent is that if you waste a full consecutive hour treating a single patient, in most cases, assuming you are attempting a DC appropriate for your Proficiency, you get the exact same result as you would by treating them for 10 minutes, ignoring them for 50 minutes, and then treating them again for 10 minutes.

Nobody would ever do that. Why would I waste an hour treating one patient, when I could treat 6 patients once, and the original patient twice, in roughly the same amount of time, with roughly the same result for the first patient?

If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.


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Because you only have one person really hurt, and/or because you rolled a critical success.

Edit: oh, I forgot: because you rolled high with those d8s.

Liberty's Edge

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Aratorin wrote:

Yes. I find it very hard to believe that the intent is that if you waste a full consecutive hour treating a single patient, in most cases, assuming you are attempting a DC appropriate for your Proficiency, you get the exact same result as you would by treating them for 10 minutes, ignoring them for 50 minutes, and then treating them again for 10 minutes.

Nobody would ever do that. Why would I waste an hour treating one patient, when I could treat 6 patients once, and the original patient twice, in roughly the same amount of time, with roughly the same result for the first patient?

If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.

Yes, that is the intent. There are feats that let you manage this like Ward Medic, where you can treat 2 characters, or Continual Healing, which allows you make a check every 10 minutes.

I don't see it as a waste. So you Treat Wounds, get a success. They are still hurt you keep treating them (note, it does not say continue to Treat Wounds, just to "treat".) In another 50 minutes they automatically get the healing again without another roll.

Or, treat them for 10 minute, wait for 50 and make ANOTHER ROLL to see if you can get a success again. What if you crit fail and actually hurt them? I bet they would be willing to say "Wish you would have just treated me for another 50 minutes."

Again, when the action says "If you continue to treat them..." it is not saying you make another Treat Wounds check. If that was the case, it would flat out say it.

The developers picked their words carefully and we should not put more into them than we see.

Radiant Oath

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Aratorin wrote:


Yes. I find it very hard to believe that the intent is that if you waste a full consecutive hour treating a single patient, in most cases, assuming you are attempting a DC appropriate for your Proficiency, you get the exact same result as you would by treating them for 10 minutes, ignoring them for 50 minutes, and then treating them again for 10 minutes.

Nobody would ever do that. Why would I waste an hour treating one patient, when I could treat 6 patients once, and the original patient twice, in roughly the same amount of time, with roughly the same result for the first patient?

If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.

Because you do it at the end of the adventuring day, not during it, so that a character who nearly died will be ready to go tomorrow.

Sczarni

And as someone who makes regular use of the hour-long option, it is absolutely not a waste of ink.


We're never going to see eye to eye on this, but frankly it's not especially relevant anyway. PF2 fights are either so trivial that you don't need more than 10 minutes of rest, or so brutal that you call it a day afterwards and start the next day fully healed, so this has never actually come up in play for any of my groups.

Liberty's Edge

If I understand Aratorin's viewpoint correctly, this is how the hour-long use option works: I Treat Wounds once, succeed, and then keep making Treat Wounds rolls as separate "subordinate Actions" for the next 50 minutes, at which point I go back and double all the healing I've done for the last hour.

So, say I've got Assurance and failure's nothing to worry about. I Treat Wounds, autosucceed, and cure 4 hp. I keep going, and over the next five rolls I get 6 hp, 8 hp, 10 hp, 12 hp, and 14 hp, for a total of 54 hp healed, at which point everything retroactively doubles and I have actually healed 108 hp.

And then I keep going.

After all, every Treat Wounds action is its own separate Action, right? Doesn't that mean the 60 minute timer is included in each action as well? I haven't failed any rolls, so I should still be able to keep on truckin'! I retroactively double again! And then 10 minutes later, again! Man, surgery is easy! Wheeeeee!


Evilgm wrote:
Aratorin wrote:


Yes. I find it very hard to believe that the intent is that if you waste a full consecutive hour treating a single patient, in most cases, assuming you are attempting a DC appropriate for your Proficiency, you get the exact same result as you would by treating them for 10 minutes, ignoring them for 50 minutes, and then treating them again for 10 minutes.

Nobody would ever do that. Why would I waste an hour treating one patient, when I could treat 6 patients once, and the original patient twice, in roughly the same amount of time, with roughly the same result for the first patient?

If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.

Because you do it at the end of the adventuring day, not during it, so that a character who nearly died will be ready to go tomorrow.

It also ignores the effects of Ward Medic, which allows you to treat multiple people at once, for a whole hour.


Shisumo wrote:

If I understand Aratorin's viewpoint correctly, this is how the hour-long use option works: I Treat Wounds once, succeed, and then keep making Treat Wounds rolls as separate "subordinate Actions" for the next 50 minutes, at which point I go back and double all the healing I've done for the last hour.

So, say I've got Assurance and failure's nothing to worry about. I Treat Wounds, autosucceed, and cure 4 hp. I keep going, and over the next five rolls I get 6 hp, 8 hp, 10 hp, 12 hp, and 14 hp, for a total of 54 hp healed, at which point everything retroactively doubles and I have actually healed 108 hp.

And then I keep going.

After all, every Treat Wounds action is its own separate Action, right? Doesn't that mean the 60 minute timer is included in each action as well? I haven't failed any rolls, so I should still be able to keep on truckin'! I retroactively double again! And then 10 minutes later, again! Man, surgery is easy! Wheeeeee!

No. You have to complete the Activity before getting to double, and the Activity has to last an hour or more.

Thanks for the unnecessary sarcasm as you misunderstand my view though.

Liberty's Edge

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Aratorin wrote:
Shisumo wrote:

If I understand Aratorin's viewpoint correctly, this is how the hour-long use option works: I Treat Wounds once, succeed, and then keep making Treat Wounds rolls as separate "subordinate Actions" for the next 50 minutes, at which point I go back and double all the healing I've done for the last hour.

So, say I've got Assurance and failure's nothing to worry about. I Treat Wounds, autosucceed, and cure 4 hp. I keep going, and over the next five rolls I get 6 hp, 8 hp, 10 hp, 12 hp, and 14 hp, for a total of 54 hp healed, at which point everything retroactively doubles and I have actually healed 108 hp.

And then I keep going.

After all, every Treat Wounds action is its own separate Action, right? Doesn't that mean the 60 minute timer is included in each action as well? I haven't failed any rolls, so I should still be able to keep on truckin'! I retroactively double again! And then 10 minutes later, again! Man, surgery is easy! Wheeeeee!

No. You have to complete the Activity before getting to double, and the Activity has to last an hour or more.

You're misunderstanding my point. Every new Treat Wounds action should, by your argument, create a new Activity that can last an hour. So every ten minutes after the first hour, you're completing another hour tied to a subsequent Treat Wounds action.

Sczarni

Claxon wrote:
Evilgm wrote:
Aratorin wrote:


Yes. I find it very hard to believe that the intent is that if you waste a full consecutive hour treating a single patient, in most cases, assuming you are attempting a DC appropriate for your Proficiency, you get the exact same result as you would by treating them for 10 minutes, ignoring them for 50 minutes, and then treating them again for 10 minutes.

Nobody would ever do that. Why would I waste an hour treating one patient, when I could treat 6 patients once, and the original patient twice, in roughly the same amount of time, with roughly the same result for the first patient?

If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.

Because you do it at the end of the adventuring day, not during it, so that a character who nearly died will be ready to go tomorrow.
It also ignores the effects of Ward Medic, which allows you to treat multiple people at once, for a whole hour.

Not being snarky when I ask this, but how many checks would this require?


Shisumo wrote:
Aratorin wrote:
Shisumo wrote:

If I understand Aratorin's viewpoint correctly, this is how the hour-long use option works: I Treat Wounds once, succeed, and then keep making Treat Wounds rolls as separate "subordinate Actions" for the next 50 minutes, at which point I go back and double all the healing I've done for the last hour.

So, say I've got Assurance and failure's nothing to worry about. I Treat Wounds, autosucceed, and cure 4 hp. I keep going, and over the next five rolls I get 6 hp, 8 hp, 10 hp, 12 hp, and 14 hp, for a total of 54 hp healed, at which point everything retroactively doubles and I have actually healed 108 hp.

And then I keep going.

After all, every Treat Wounds action is its own separate Action, right? Doesn't that mean the 60 minute timer is included in each action as well? I haven't failed any rolls, so I should still be able to keep on truckin'! I retroactively double again! And then 10 minutes later, again! Man, surgery is easy! Wheeeeee!

No. You have to complete the Activity before getting to double, and the Activity has to last an hour or more.
You're misunderstanding my point. Every new Treat Wounds action should, by your argument, create a new Activity that can last an hour. So every ten minutes after the first hour, you're completing another hour tied to a subsequent Treat Wounds action.

No. I'm really not sure how else to explain it.

[activity]action, action, action,action,action,action[/activity]->double.

If you start a new activity after that, it's a completely separate activity. You would have to spend another hour to double again.


If a party has multiple sources of healing, the hour long treatment option has another opportunity to shine:

For example a party I ran which included a champion, a sorcerer with the heal spell, and a monk trained in medicine. The monk could treat the most wounded character for a full hour while the champion spreads around a routine of lay on hands and refocusing to patch up the other character (and the sorcerer can cover 'emergency' healing during encounters) - all while the rest of the party can spend their time identifying recently found items, searching for things, and all those other actions parties benefit from people doing besides healing.

And get done 10 minutes earlier, which matters because time matters - even if you don't have some kind of "in 3 hours the city will explode" kind of event going on, characters still have goals and people that actually want to accomplish their goals tend to choose 'let's get working on it' over 'I'll do it later' whenever they can.

Though I admit I can see the appeal to the reading of "If you succeed at your check, you can continue treating the target to grant additional healing. If you treat them for a total of 1 hour, double the Hit Points they regain from Treat Wounds." as not preventing spending just 20 minutes to get 'double' results if you succeed at a second check... I'm just absolutely certain that's not how the writer meant that sentence to be read.


Nefreet wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Evilgm wrote:
Aratorin wrote:


Yes. I find it very hard to believe that the intent is that if you waste a full consecutive hour treating a single patient, in most cases, assuming you are attempting a DC appropriate for your Proficiency, you get the exact same result as you would by treating them for 10 minutes, ignoring them for 50 minutes, and then treating them again for 10 minutes.

Nobody would ever do that. Why would I waste an hour treating one patient, when I could treat 6 patients once, and the original patient twice, in roughly the same amount of time, with roughly the same result for the first patient?

If that's the intent, it was a waste of ink to even print the option.

Because you do it at the end of the adventuring day, not during it, so that a character who nearly died will be ready to go tomorrow.
It also ignores the effects of Ward Medic, which allows you to treat multiple people at once, for a whole hour.
Not being snarky when I ask this, but how many checks would this require?

By my reading, Ward Medic changes the functionality of Treat Wounds to treat multiple creatures with the same check. So it'd be one check for all creatures, and if you wanted to extend the time it took to an hour instead of 10 minutes you'd heal double.

If you also had Continual Recovery you could Treat Wounds every 10 minutes on all your patients, and would effectively recovery ~6 times the health in an hour instead of double.

Edit: And the biggest reason I don't support Aratorin's interpretation on this is because it would negate the benefit of Continual Recovery feat, which is basically what Aratorin is suggestion it does, but better, because his version you make 6 checks to heal (and regain HP) and then double all of that.

Whereas, Continual Healing just lets you heal 6 times in an hour.

Aratorin's interpretation gives you ~12 times the healing of a standard treat wounds, while Continual Healing gives you ~6.

Sczarni

Again, not being snarky, but do you find that rolling 6 times for 1 result, which almost guarantees a failure, adds anything to the game?

Ninja'd twice. This was meant for Aratorin.

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