Multiclass Feats


Classes


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am a big fan of the multiclass feats. I love them even if you leave them exactly as is.

However, I would be really, really keen for someone to be able to take them at level 1. There are concepts where a character has been trained as an A and a B at the same time. While mechanically playing as an A and then showcasing B a few levels in works, I would love to be able to actually play as an A and a B from the get go. I'm okay if this is only true for humans with an extra general feat, or as a special heritage, or something.


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I do like the multiclassing in this edition. {different from PF1, not as free, but also does not cost you the base the of your chosen class, which can allow for some cool concepts, and seems to be a fair trade-off.) The one slight problem I have is some classes do not has many class feats to do this has well {but this is more of a problem with said classes then multiclassing in general.) Which I think is also a bit of the problem, has many of these class to not have a Level 1 feat to do so {for example, I would love to have a Roguish Bard from Level 1, as it would fit his background concept, but Bards do not have the Level 1 class feat to do it}. But I'm with you, the more flavor someone can add especially at character creation, the better for it. Perhaps going off what you suggested, a special option that trades out the Level 1 Ancestry Feat and the Skill Feat you normally get though your background, in trade for the Dedication feat. {Representing that your character before the game, spent that time learning there main class, while also dabbling in the skills of another, however, because of this additional focus, never had time to truly connect with their heritage or background beyond a very basic point.)

The one slight change I would want is with the Dedication feats, to allow for choice in the benefits it provides, has, depending on your initial class, there can be some overlap. For example, it can be very flavourful, say for a Barbarian to multiclass in Ranger {someone whom tends to be more self-reliant, one whom tracks prey and uses simple but honed martial skills in combination with overwhelming rages to both survive and thrive}. However, in practice, he really only gains half of the Dedication feat, as he already has both martial weapons and medium armor. He only gains Training is 2 skills {one in Survival if he is not already trained} and Hunt Target once per day, at the cost of a class feat, and locking him into only that multiclass for the next little while. This maybe more of a fringe case, but I'm always one for more choice as along as it 1) the choices being offered are roughly equal to each other 2) it does not unbalance the game in general.

Silver Crusade

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In general, I like the new multi class rules a lot. They automatically fix many of the balance issues that traditional multi classing introduce (the old way allowed for the creation of both greatly overpowered and significantly under powered characters). I'm willing to lose a huge amount of flexibility for that enhanced balanced (and the new rules are definitely a lot less flexible than the old rules).

My biggest issue right now is that the rules are fairly asymmetrical. In almost all cases where you're combining a caster and non caster class you're going to be far better off taking the caster as your primary. Caster/Caster multiclasses gain little.

Hopefully the rebalancing of spells that Paizo has stated it will do will make pure casters far more attractive. At the moment, the incentive for a caster to dip a martial for armor and weapon proficiencies is pretty strong


I also like this version on multiclassing,

But I will try homebrew dual class system.

Where you take 2 classes and level them both, but at a slower rate.

I.E. you gain 1 level of one class then 1 level of 2nd class.
Heritage feat only for 1st class. Racial HPs also only once.

But on 5th,8th,11th,14th,17th and 20th level, you get features of both classes.

So 20th level dual class would be 13/13 split. On dual levels take average HPs of both classes.


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My main issue with the multi-classing feats is that they will end up being so much better that every class will end up being a multi-class. They just seem better then your regular feats.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
My main issue with the multi-classing feats is that they will end up being so much better that every class will end up being a multi-class. They just seem better then your regular feats.

Which honestly is not a Multi-Class issue but a general problem with most class-feats being underwhelming.

When I was planing the Wizard I'm currently playing I quickly noticed that other than Quick Preparation and Makeshift Wand, none of the feats before level 14 are really exciting. Most are somewhere between "meh" and "it could be useful in certain situatons and there's nothing better so I might as well take it".

I very quickly decided to Multiclass after that realization. And when they gave out Qucik Preparation for free, I went back and searched for another good feat abd ebded up with another feat of my Multi-Class Archetype...


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Yeah Thy should probably should work a bit more on class feats. maybe they can do the unlockables as proficiency raises thing for class feats as well as skill feats. So feats could have a scaling of up to 4 parts. May not work for all but could be interesting.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
My main issue with the multi-classing feats is that they will end up being so much better that every class will end up being a multi-class. They just seem better then your regular feats.

I was going to post this. My players have multi-classed for 3 out of 4 of the PCs, just because they're so good and the options for low-level feats are so anemic. Getting two skill trainings and (two cantrips/better armour or weapon proficiency)? So much better.


EberronHoward wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
My main issue with the multi-classing feats is that they will end up being so much better that every class will end up being a multi-class. They just seem better then your regular feats.
I was going to post this. My players have multi-classed for 3 out of 4 of the PCs, just because they're so good and the options for low-level feats are so anemic. Getting two skill trainings and (two cantrips/better armour or weapon proficiency)? So much better.

Yup, was kinda asking this myself when I was making a Bard. Do I get "Cantrip Expansion" to net myself two extra Occult cantrip, or do I go Sorcerer Dedication to net myself two extra cantrips from any list {as long as they come from the same list}, and get two skills that I am trained in.

And also agree that more players would prefer to multiclass, the taking there own class feats, which is more of a comment on those class then multiclassing in general. I believe the Dedication Feats were suppose to act as a stop gap to multiclassing being the better option {ie you do get something from it, but it does require a certain investment in stats to do it, and limits your options in multiclassing until you invest another two class feats, so it would not be the automatic option}. But both because class feats are not as powerful, and because multiclassing can be the only way certain classes/builds/roleplay can fix problems, it can become the clear cut choice.


Also, I'm kinda of wondering, how many people multiclass into the prestige classes {Cavalier and such}. I've seen a good amount of interest in other multiclassing, but haven't heard as much for the prestige classes.


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Siro wrote:
Also, I'm kinda of wondering, how many people multiclass into the prestige classes {Cavalier and such}. I've seen a good amount of interest in other multiclassing, but haven't heard as much for the prestige classes.

Well, of the prestige classes, only the cavalier is actually useable. The Pirate Archetype is extremely limited in aplication and even for a ship-focused campaign I do't find it too interesting. And the Grey Maidens require some in-world reason before you are even allowed to enter.

One player in one of my group (homebrew campaign) was searching for ways to get an Animal Companion an summoning spells without being a druid. I suggested a Bard/Cavalier. Basically a Battle Herald. I think this could work quite well, using one action to inspire courage, one to command your companion and the last one to concentrate on your summon spell.


Blave wrote:
Siro wrote:
Also, I'm kinda of wondering, how many people multiclass into the prestige classes {Cavalier and such}. I've seen a good amount of interest in other multiclassing, but haven't heard as much for the prestige classes.

Well, of the prestige classes, only the cavalier is actually useable. The Pirate Archetype is extremely limited in aplication and even for a ship-focused campaign I do't find it too interesting. And the Grey Maidens require some in-world reason before you are even allowed to enter.

One player in one of my group (homebrew campaign) was searching for ways to get an Animal Companion an summoning spells without being a druid. I suggested a Bard/Cavalier. Basically a Battle Herald. I think this could work quite well, using one action to inspire courage, one to command your companion and the last one to concentrate on your summon spell.

Hmm, interesting, and a pretty good idea. I had a similar idea when I saw the Cavalier class and was getting used to the system by coming up with some concept characters. The one difference I had was, instead of using Inspire Courage, was to use Illusory Creature to put another 'body' on the board. So the set up would be "Summon Monster" followed by the next turn "Illusory Creature" and concentrate on Summon Monster, followed on the next turn on command companion, concentrate on Summon, and then concentrate on Illusory. Didn't go for it then because I was unsure on the Concentration rules, but I may look more into it now, especially because the LV10 Cavalier "Impressive Steed" feat gives your companion an action even if you don't command it, so even on those set up round it can still do something/ allow you to use Inspire Courage {good idea and missing piece in my set up} and still have it do something.


My chapter 5 paladin only multiclassed because 1.6 dropped and two feats I was using ceased existing and I needed a free "trained in skill X" where X was one of Athletics, Acrobatics, or Medicine.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Harakani wrote:

I am a big fan of the multiclass feats. I love them even if you leave them exactly as is.

However, I would be really, really keen for someone to be able to take them at level 1. There are concepts where a character has been trained as an A and a B at the same time. While mechanically playing as an A and then showcasing B a few levels in works, I would love to be able to actually play as an A and a B from the get go. I'm okay if this is only true for humans with an extra general feat, or as a special heritage, or something.

I agree the biggest advantage of this system is the 'potential' of simple changes enabling someone to start out at 1st level as a multi-class if they were to open it up.

It would require, in my estimation, changing the level requirement for the dedication feats down to 1st level, and then insuring every class began with a class feat at first level that they can spend to get something from their class (or sacrifice it to get cross training). The old system was actually limited in its ability to explain/allow someone to be planned multi-class until 2nd level. So this is one thing that would give this method an actual advantage over the old one. Unfortunately, currently, it is being prevented.

The biggest failing in the new multi-class system is the inability to cleanly have someone change the direction of their life. The closest thing you could do at this point would be allow someone to multi-class into another class and then retrain their primary class into the class they multi-classed into. However, to get to the point you can do that, you'd have had to have progressed so far into your primary class that the minimum level such a person could justify such a transformation, they would be such a high level in their primary class it means the transformation becomes less believable.

Take a wizard for instance who changes their focus becoming a knight, who focuses on fighting and uses his spells as a supplement. To achieve it now. Otherwise, if the wizard used his first two class feats (and presumed enough of a change was instituted to make a class feat available at 1st level for the wizard) one might be able to justify going from a second level wizard with 2 fighter multi-class feats over to a second level fighter with two wizard multi-class feats, Allowing for a character concept that used to be viable, but wouldn't be without making the character after the proposed change in life.

If someone is worried about dedication feats being too powerful for first level characters, define them such that they are tiered, and 1st level dedicated characters get the first half of the dedication feat's abilities, and they get the rest only if they are at least second level. I could even see the original dedication feat potentially providing extra benefits as the number of its archetype feats are bought until the dedication has been 'completed'.

Anyway, I agree, the biggest potential positive of the current multi-class system in 2nd edition would be if they were allowed to start down that path at 1st level.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really like the idea of Tiered dedication feats.
One issue that shows up with multiclass is 'dipping'. I can see dedication feats (with their minimum feats) being a way to fix this, but tiers go even further. You could also work the dedication into the tiers.
X [Dedication]
Number of [X] feats, including this one.
1: gain trained proficiency in A and B
2: gain additional trained proficiency in C
3: gain additional trained proficiency in D
4: You may take another dedication feat.

Heck, if dedication is primarily giving proficiency, with the additional bonuses effectively being "tacked on" to other feats in the tree (via tiers) then the dedication feat can be General [1] without breaking anything!


The PF2 Multiclass approach has its appeals, but it isn't capable of supporting all concepts. I'd rather see all three of the multiclass rules of past editions put into one game.

PF2 / D&D4 - Multiclass through Feats.

PF1 / D&D3 - Mutliclass through leveling and selecting different classes.

D&D1 / D&D2 - Multiclass through simultaneous classes and divided experience.

By mixing and matching those approaches, sometimes within the same character, you can fulfill some conceptions.

Silver Crusade

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Chance Wyvernspur wrote:

The PF2 Multiclass approach has its appeals, but it isn't capable of supporting all concepts. I'd rather see all three of the multiclass rules of past editions put into one game.

PF2 / D&D4 - Multiclass through Feats.

PF1 / D&D3 - Mutliclass through leveling and selecting different classes.

D&D1 / D&D2 - Multiclass through simultaneous classes and divided experience.

By mixing and matching those approaches, sometimes within the same character, you can fulfill some conceptions.

I hope that this does not occur.

In PF1/D&D 3 multiclassing was one of the main sources of power issues (with both too powerful and too weak characters).

I'm willing to give up some flexibility in exchange for greater balance.

I DO want to see considerably more flexibility in terms of archetypes, class feats and general feats. That way, most (probably not all, but most) of the flexibility of PF1 multiclassing should eventually become available but in a more balanced fashion.

One thing that I WOULD like to see is some mechanism for a spell casting class to lose some of its spell power in exchange for enhanced class features. I find it ironic that what many consider the MOST balanced classes in PF1 are the 6 caster level classes (Bard, Inquisitor, etc). These classes can NOT be reproduced in PF2. The "dabbler classes" (paladin, ranger) are easily reproduced (a PF1 Ranger is basically a PF2 Ranger with a Druid multiclass).


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I think my big issue with multiclassing is just how it is balanced. As mentioned, multiclassing is just a straight upgrade compared to some class feats like Cantrip expansion. Theoretically, the dedication has the cost of preventing you from taking other dedications, but in practice it doesn't matter if someone is only going to dip.

But there's also issues with how it works across different classes. A caster taking a martial dedication usually gets a whole lot of stuff for it thanks to the weapon and armor proficiencies. A martial taking another martial's dedication gets significantly less-- often just a once per day use of an action and an extra trained skill. A barbarian taking the fighter dedication can AoO once per day and gets another skill, but can't rage in the heavy armor they unlock. A fighter taking the barbarian dedication gets a rage they can't use in heavy armor once per day and another skill.

This is especially unfortunate given how the next tier of multiclass feats can often be REALLY good inter-martial. AoO all day is amazing for a barbarian, considering several of their reaction feats are inferior to AoO and the reach they can get as Giants. The Ranger would loooooove Point-Blank Shot, and it would make longbows super good with Hunt Target. But an archer gets so little out of the fighter dedication.

Meanwhile a cleric dipping into fighter or a sorcerer dipping into paladin not only maximizes dedication benefits, but can get great mileage out of the later multiclass feats. Lay on Hands and Channel Life are so much stronger than most sorcerer powers, for example. You get more spell points and a worthwhile way to use the points you already had.

I'm not sure if the solution is loosening up the dedications, making some of these things general feats, or just making a barbarian AoO and ranger PBS feat. But it all kind of contributes to that customization bottleneck discussed in that other thread.


I wouldn't mind a multiclassing feat growing by itself like how Catfall does. Just take one feat, and it gradually grants class features as you level up. With that amount of generosity, I'd probably limiting multi-classing to one other class, ever.

Chance Wyvernspur wrote:

The PF2 Multiclass approach has its appeals, but it isn't capable of supporting all concepts. I'd rather see all three of the multiclass rules of past editions put into one game.

PF2 / D&D4 - Multiclass through Feats.

PF1 / D&D3 - Mutliclass through leveling and selecting different classes.

D&D1 / D&D2 - Multiclass through simultaneous classes and divided experience.

By mixing and matching those approaches, sometimes within the same character, you can fulfill some conceptions.

But at that point, PF2 might as well not have classes at all, if there are that many work-arounds for the class system. That's not a bad thing, but creating that many exceptions become the norm.


Blave wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
My main issue with the multi-classing feats is that they will end up being so much better that every class will end up being a multi-class. They just seem better then your regular feats.

Which honestly is not a Multi-Class issue but a general problem with most class-feats being underwhelming.

When I was planing the Wizard I'm currently playing I quickly noticed that other than Quick Preparation and Makeshift Wand, none of the feats before level 14 are really exciting. Most are somewhere between "meh" and "it could be useful in certain situatons and there's nothing better so I might as well take it".

I very quickly decided to Multiclass after that realization. And when they gave out Qucik Preparation for free, I went back and searched for another good feat abd ebded up with another feat of my Multi-Class Archetype...

I did the exact same thing. I almost took the familar feats because there wasn't much else, but then I looked at multiclassing rogue. 2nd, 4th, and 6th all went to rogue and I dont feel I missed out on much.

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