Fleshcrafted Drow

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Organized Play Member. 107 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 13 Organized Play characters.


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I'm playing a beastmorph alchemist in PFS (vivisectionist is not PFS legal) and I'm having a lot of fun. Natural Attacks build with Feral Mutagen, buy a helm of mammoth lord for a 4th natural attack (at your max bab), get pounce at level 10. Thinking of taking Master Chymist prestige class from 11th.

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Lisa Stevens wrote:
Vessa wrote:

I'm so excited! Kingmaker was awesome so this one will be even better!!

I do wonder though why not port it over to 2e?

Owlcat has been working on Wrath for over a year now and PF2 wasn't available for them to use. Since they already had the engine built for PF1, it made some sense to use that for Wrath.


Glad to hear that it will be PF1!

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Has 2E Finally Made “Low Magic” Viable?

PF2 IS low magic, nothing to change :D

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It's kind of crazy that the majority of the community agreed that Mutagenist alchemists were clearly underpowered and when Paizo had one chance to at least fix it a bit with the errata, they added such an underwhelming and situational ability as Mutagenic Flashback. Looking at the reactions on the forum, it's already one of the most discussed and disliked changes. So disappointing.

Arachnofiend wrote:

A Fighter would do more damage than a Druid in a target dummy situation starting from day one, and that never really changed.

The difference was stuff like flight. It does not matter how much damage your falchion fighter does if he can't reach the enemy.

Celestial armor, potion of fly, winged boots are all pretty much mandatory options for mid level martials in PF1. With UMD and wands that work more than once per day it is also pretty easy to be versatile, obviously not as much as a full caster.

Temperans wrote:

I'm almost sure the 400 dpr thing was a bit of an exaggeration (sounds like something from the dpr Olympics thread).

Not at all, most of my characters except wizard, sorcerer, etc. do at least 150-200 DPR by level 11 and a few martial do 250+/300/400. And I play mostly PFS so I'm not even taking about vivisectionist shenanigans.

Quain Martial Artist is a trait that gives +1 damage to unarmed attacks.
Martial Focus (natural) feat gives +1 damage to natural and unarmed attacks.
Bone Fists gives 1 Natural Armor and adds 2 damage to natural attacks, and treated as having armor spikes.
Vine Strike gives 1d6 additional damage with natural and unarmed attacks.
Strong Jaw increases the natural attack damage by 2 steps.
Bloody Claws gives bleed damage with your claws.

Note that Improved Natural Attack feats are monster feats that are not normally allowed for players. Only a few options give this e.g. Ranger Natural Combat Style. Obviously if you are the GM, it's your call.

You can start with this thread where prototype00 analysed and compared the different stances.

Captain Morgan wrote:
So this is sort of off topic, but I poked my nose in the 1e forum about a week or two ago and they are still having the "why won't Paizo let martials have nice things" conversation and I didn't have the heart to tell them.

With all the material, martials can be really OP in PF1 now though. Like easy 300-400 DPR at level 11 kind of OP. Makes PF2 fighters and rogues feel like amateurs ;)

After my question on interaction between Morph and Polymorph effects, similar question now but between Dragon Claws and Monk Stances.

Dragon Claws is a morph effect that gives claws dealing 1d4 damage plus 1d6 energy damage (that scales up to 3d6 at 9th). Monk stances e.g. Tiger stance allows you to make claws attack that deal 1d8 slashing damage; are in the brawling group; and have the agile, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits.

Let's imagine you used you focus spell to cast dragon claws, then with your next action you enter the Tiger stance, then strike.

How much damage do you do?

1. 1d8 slashing (dragon claws has no effect)
2. 1d4 slashing + 1d6 energy (stance has no effect)
3. 1d8 slashing + 1d6 energy (stance overwrites the damage of the claws but you keep the energy damage)

The last one seems reasonable to me and I don't see anything in the rules that says one way or the other.


Joey Cote wrote:

I would be willing to bet when they come out wit the Dragon Disciple archetype they will get a feat very similar to flurry of blows that applies to their claw attacks. I wouldn't be surprised to see other feats that will make the claws a focus of combat for them either. Dragon Disciple always felt like an iconic prestige class, and one of the few early ones that worked well.

That would be pretty cool, I really hope you're right!

Joey Cote wrote:

Yes, at the moment claws are not going to be a primary attack form for the Sorcerer. It seems to me they are more likely intended to be something the sorcerer can do as a third action then as the focus of the character's attacks. And with not getting expert in Unarmed until 11th, that seems intentional.

All the problems I listed for "natural attacks" are not specific to the sorcerer. Sure I understand they are not meant to be a primary attack form for the Sorcerer, but the issue is that they are sub-par choices on pretty much every front because of the limitation that feats and other abilities only apply to weapons you are wielding. So it's the same problem for Druids with Wild Morph, Alchemists with Bestial Mutagen, Barbarians with Animal instinct, etc. The only ability that works with unarmed attacks is the Monk's Flurry which you can only take for non-monks as a dedication at 10th level which is really late.

For Draconic sorcerers, it's even worst because their initial focus spell doesn't even synergise with their feats and spells i.e. Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon making Draconic a pretty poor bloodline choice.

And more: Double Slice, Lunge, Twin Party, Disarming Stance, etc.

Basically all the two-weapon fighting feats do not work with unarmed attacks except monk flurry preventing from getting more attacks, or any feature that adds to weapon damage except runes with the handwraps.

Sure, I know runes work, all the other effects that I cited don't.

Faenor wrote:

(...) Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon, use poison or Poison Weapon, Energy Mutagen, Twin Takedown, etc. They all apply only to weapons you are wielding (...)

Thanks, that's what I feared. The issue is that Natural Attacks cannot receive any boost like normal weapons can. For example you cannot use Bespell Weapon, Magic Weapon, use poison or Poison Weapon, Energy Mutagen, Twin Takedown, etc. They all apply only to weapons you are wielding making unarmed attacks a trap option in general.

Even more so for a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer who can never enhance his Dragon Claws afaict (Bespell Weapon doesn't work and Magic Fang is on the Primal spells list).

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I think they should rush to release an Unchained book to fix the Alchemist and maybe even rush to release a 3rd edition which would be the 5e of Pathfinder (PF2 being its 4e so far) /s

After reading the archetypes from Last Omens on the AON site, my only request is that the next archetypes are less situational, none of them seem even remotely passable.

Dragon Claws have the Morph trait and gives you finesse claws that deal 1d4 damage plus 1d6 energy that scales.

Bestial Mutagen has the Polymorph trait gives you a jaw and claws attacks, an item bonus, and scaling damage dice.

morph wrote:

Effects that slightly alter a creature’s form have the morph trait. Any Strikes specifically granted by a morph effect are magical. You can be affected by multiple morph spells at once, but if you morph the same body part more than once, the second morph effect attempts to counteract the first (in the same manner as two polymorph effects, described in that trait).

Your morph effects might also end if you are polymorphed and the polymorph effect invalidates or overrides your morph effect. The GM determines which morph effects can be used together and which can’t.

You can both be affected by Dragon Claws and Bestial Mutagen, but what happens to the claws?

What do you get?
1. Only the effect of the last feature you used
2. A mix of effects depending on what you last used e.g. mutagen + Dragon claws you get 1d4 damage claws + energy damage + item bonus
3. Mutagen damages dice and item bonus + additional energy damage dice.

shroudb wrote:

Potent Poisoner: Poisons deal minimum damage even on a successful saving throw (still deal 0 on a critical success)

What does minimum damage mean exactly?

Loading the +4 DC seems pretty hard you make unless poison DC always user the Alchemist DC?

Other than that, I mostly like it. Seems really needed to make the Alchemists class viable at all.

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Castilliano wrote:

So the OP is saying that the Barbarian Instinct that's built for making unarmed attacks is only really useful for characters that focus on making unarmed attacks?

Huh. Who knew?


Nope, that if you take the barbarian dedication and the animal instinct you get nothing. But sure if you're saying that spending a feat to get nothing is good game design and not worth pointing out, I'm sure you will love the mutagenists' first ability and PF2 is obviously the perfect game for you /s

Arachnofiend wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Not sure what went wrong with Alchemist development really that made them so terrible as they are atm.
"What went wrong" is the scrapping of the resonance mechanic, basically. The playtest Alchemist was so heavily tied to that mechanic that it would have required a complete ground up rework to make the Alchemist work without it... which I guess they didn't have time for.

That'd be a pretty lame excuse tbh, maybe more not enough review and testing.

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Almost as good as the mutagenist alchemist xD
Such great game design.

baahk36 wrote:
I'm having a hard time myself finding reasons not to play a gnome for any class. I love their ancestry feats which can give pretty much any class the little push it needs to make it awesome or special. And their ability score boosts fall out well for most classes.

Ah? I found halfling and gnome strength flaw makes them really subpar for all martial classes but rogue. Even alchemist is hard due to bulk.

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Well as published so far, it's pretty bad. If you need to buy another book to make it viable, that doesn't make it better game design.

Blackest Sheep wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Going straight Barbarian, multiclassing into Fighter, then grabbing Double Slice makes for one of the highest DPR builds in the game (specifically, I believe to get as high as possible you go Giant Totem and dual wield oversized, non-agile, weapons).
If you go giant instinct, you should talk to your GM beforehand so that they can decide how you get a second weapon, as the class feature only grants one weapon initially.

Yeah not going to be legal in PFS. Makes no sense, you get access to only one oversized weapon, feels like a pretty lame way to limit the build...

Zwordsman wrote:

So I'm not sure how often you would Quick Alchemy a low level poison (with powerful alchemy) as opposed to crafting double in the morning. In general, not many cases where I want powerful alchemy. I think I'd rather snag sticky bombs for a quick alchemy boost. Really would only be poisons, tangelfoot bag, or thunderstones no? (more in the future I'm sure)

Unless I'm misunderstanding something at 3am which is highly possible what being 3am haha.

The problem with this is that the DC doesn't really scale up. With the Potent Poisoner feat, you add +4 to the poison DC. The best injury poison you can create is the Purple Worm Venom (item 13):

Purple Worm Venom wrote:
Saving Throw DC 32 Fortitude; Maximum Duration 6 rounds; Stage 1 5d6 poison damage and enfeebled 2 (1 round); Stage 2 6d6 poison damage and enfeebled 2 (1 round); Stage 3 8d6 poison and enfeebled 2 (1 round)

So the DC with Potent Poisoner is 36. An Adult Bronze Dragon (CR 13) Fortitude save is +24 so saves on a 12+ (40%) which is ok but not great. An Ancient Brass Dragon Fort save is +30 so saves on a 6+ (70%) which is pretty crappy. An Ancient Gold Dragon Fort save is +37 so is only poisoned on a 1 (95%). With Powerful Alchemy, it would use your alchemy DC so at level 20, the DC would be 10 + 20 (level) + 6 (Int) + 6 (Master) + 4 (Potent Poisoner) = 46 instead of 36 but it took you one more action to do it. The Ancient Gold Dragon would save on a 9+ (55%). Given the poison damage doesn't scale either, it's probably not worth spending 2 actions to use poison.

So basically, if you build a character to use poison, you will fall behind at higher levels as you will have spent several feats and take dedications for suboptimal results i.e. it's a trap, and poor game design.

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It's not even like Favored Enemy or Favored Terrain were OP before...

Syries wrote:

After posting this question I immediately found the answer. It's all to do with contact poisons:

CRB Pg.550 wrote:

Contact: A contact poison is activated by applying it to

an item or directly onto a living creature’s skin. The first
creature to touch the affected item must attempt a saving
throw against the poison; if the poison is applied directly,
the creature must attempt a saving throw immediately
when the poison touches its skin. Contact poisons are
infeasible to apply to a creature via a weapon attack due to
the logistics of delivering them without poisoning yourself.

Typically, the onset time of a contact poison is 1 minute.
Poison Weapon wrote:
it applies the effects of the poison, provided that poison can be delivered by contact or injury.
Keeping this question up here on the forums so others who might be confused can see.

Most of the contact poisons (all?) have a pretty long onset time (1-10 minutes) so that's pretty useless.

I'm pretty sure the point is to allow you to apply poison for one action rather than three.

If you aren't an alchemist, poison is pretty expensive and DCs don't scale with level. Even if you are an alchemist, powerful alchemy only works with quick alchemy which costs another action in addition to the action to poison the weapon if you multiclass rogue to take this feat. So 2 actions to have a DC that has any chance to succeed 50% of the time and does nothing if the opponent saves. Pretty underwhelming.

If you only take the rogue feat, one action to add 1d4 damage is extremely weak.

slaygeist wrote:

AC: 17 + level (8) = 25, vs my own (using regular Hide armor as an example) 10 (base) + 10 (trained prof) + 3 (DEX) + 3 (Item) = 26

Except you wouldn't get a +3 item until level 18. At level 8 you'd have a +1 armor only so 24 vs 25 for animal rage.

But yeah it's pretty meh...

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It's pretty clear from all the different threads that, not even 2 weeks after the release, PF2 alchemists already need a Pathfinder Unchained to fix them...

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Channel Smite should do quite a bit of damage... Takes 2 actions but you can channel heal or smite into the strike, so basically +5d8 damage at level 10.

Emblazon Armament gives a +1 status bonus to damage and you can change that to 1d4 or up to 1d6 energy with Emblazon Energy at 8th.

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Paradozen wrote:
Also it is the only way to get contact (not injury) poisons on weapons.

Yeah I was thinking, cool I can use contact poison as well as they are more potent than injury ones but unfortunately the onset time seems to be a killer e.g. 1 minute for Blightburn Resin for example so that doesn't seem like a viable combat option (I haven't checked all of them).

Doktor Weasel wrote:
So at high levels, the DC will be a bit too easy for your enemies.

There is also Powerful Alchemy which makes the DC scales with your level (so proficiency + int modifier). That and Potent Poisoner (+4 DC) should help poisons be relevant all along.

rayous brightblade wrote:
For example making a greater flametongue handwrap only uses 1 property rune as the other effects aren't property runes and therefore are not limited by the potency rune limit. You could transfer the extra abilities over to the handwraps (giving you +1 greater striking greater flaming handwraps and a +3 sword) and then sell the +3 sword. Now you have greater flaming as a property rune and a level 9 produce flame and a 1/day give all within 10 feet flaming for 1 minute on your handwraps.

I see, clever but I'm not sure that's legal. I guess flametongue could be considered the property rune and it has multiple effects e.g. flamming, produce flamme 1/day, etc. or it could be considered multiple property runes, or only flaming can be transferred.

rayous brightblade wrote:
Sounds like you should transfer over a specific magic weapon's abilities instead (since you can't add property runes to them but you can add fundamental runes).

Sorry I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Maybe I wasn't clear but you could get a Property rune for your unarmed attacks by buying Handwraps of Mighty Blows: add a +1 Potency rune, a greater Striking rune, and then a Property rune but the +1 Potency rune is basically redundant. It only costs 35 gp, but at level 11 the +2 rune that you need to buy if you want to add another property rune costs 935 gp. Bestial mutagen already gives you a +3 item bonus at level 11 so buying the +2 Potency rune is a total Rune tax.

Something else that sucks with Bestial Mutagen is that you can't get Property runes unless you have Potency runes. One of the benefits of Bestial Mutagen is that it gives a scaling item bonus... which is the same benefit than a potency rune gives.

Striking runes don't seem to require Potency runes so it looks like you should be able to only buy the striking runes to increase the damage, but if you want to add some property rune, you need to buy the Potency rune, and at that point you've lost a good part of the benefit of the bestial mutagens...

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shroudb wrote:

The energy Mutagen is the most hilarious example why the arbitrary restriction on natural weapons is so bad:

You drink a Mutagen that allows you to emit so much energy from your body that you can even transmit it through your weapon... But not through the hand that is transmitting it...

Just sigh...

Yeah they are really going out of their way to nerf natural attacks. I understand it could easily be abused in PF1, but instead of making them balanced, it seems that they are doing everything possible to make them subpar.

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Luckily an easy solution are spiked gauntlets, which I'm going for with my alchemist. Bite and claw for bigger damages, gauntlets for style and poisoning.

Yeah but now you need potency and striking runes for your spike gauntlets otherwise you pretty much lose all the benefits of using poison in the first place.

I guess an option is to also just carry a dagger to apply the poison then switch back to claws, but that would do a lot less damage which obviously erodes the benefit of using poison in the first place.

Would handwraps allow to use poison with your claws?

Handwraps of Mighty Blows wrote:
These handwraps have weapon runes etched into them to give yourunarmed attacks the benefts of those runes, making your unarmed attacks work like magic weapons.

Oh wow, I just looked it up, and you're right, that's exactly what the Alchemist needs, such a shame it disappeared.

Poison Touch wrote:

You can spend 1 Resonance Point to apply a dose of contact or injury potion of your level or lower to your hands. Applying the poison does not poison you, but after the poison is applied, you can make a melee touch attack with your hand or a fist attack to poison your target. On a success, the poison is applied to the target. On a failure, the poison is wasted.

If you don’t use the poison before 1 hour after applying it, your body harmlessly absorbs the poison and it is wasted.

Level 12 though, something earlier would be great...

Maybe we'll get Poisoner’s Gloves in the future as well.

More nerfs: poisons... See Bestial Mutagen and poison

Sure, but that's not my point. My point is that it's another nerf to Bestial Mutagen which really didn't need it. And I personally don't think that nerfing "natural" attacks is the name of the game tbh.

It feels more like an oversight to me and that you should be able to apply poison to claws attacks.

This question is relevant for all "natural" attacks builds e.g. Animal Instinct Barbarian but particularly for Mutagenist Alchemists.

One of the benefits of the Alchemist is that you can craft poisons for free (and poisons are so much better than in PF1 btw). With the Powerful Alchemy feat, you can make poisons scale to your class DC which is really great, and by taking the Potent Poisoner feat, you can add 4 to that DC! Unfortunately Alchemists don't have any way to apply poisons quickly to their weapons, but you could do that in advance. But that's not all, Bestial Mutagen gives you bite and claws but unfortunately it looks like you can't apply poison to your claws.

CRB p.550 wrote:
Injury: An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon, and it affects the target of the frst Strike made using the poisoned weapon.

Injury poisons can only be applied to weapons.

CRB p. 278 wrote:
However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifcally say so.

(typo on specifcally btw)

And unarmed attacks are not weapons. I can understand why you couldn't apply injury poison to your fists, but it seems counter intuitive that you couldn't apply poison to your claws (I'm sure there are monsters somewhere that have poisoned claws, or used to).

That seems to be another bummer for the Mutagenist Alchemist who can't benefit themselves of around one quarter of the alchemical items they can craft :(

What do you think? Is that an oversight? Is poison not considered an ability therefore we should be able to apply poisons to claws?

You're SERIOUSLY doing Alchemist, and probably all tactical combat wrong if you think throwing 3 bombs a turn is ever a good idea.

Just curious, why do you say that? Do you think firing 3 arrows or attacking 3 times in melee is seriously wrong or because you think alchemist have better use of their 3rd action?

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LuniasM wrote:
And there's also a couple good choices for mutagens you could combine with it at Level 13 for a more durable melee character (including one from Fall of Plaguestone, which is on the new Archives of Nethys database already).

It atrually looks like the energy mutagen from The Fall of Plaguestone would not work with bestial mutagen (which is the topic of this thread):

Energy Mutagen wrote:
Whenever you score a hit with a melee weapon, add the listed amount of damage of the attuned energy type.

AFAIK unarmed attacks (which is what bestial mutagen provides) are never considered weapons. You'd also not be able to mix the two mutagens together until level 13th anyway which is pretty late.

Azurespark wrote:
I think it's just weird wording. The alchemical crafting feat says you can now create alchemical items. No restrictions. And the section on alchemical items doesn't forbid it either.

Good point about not having restriction in the Alchemical Crafting feat. The sentence I quoted is from the alchemical items section though (specifically in mutagens), so I guess one could argue that"specific trumps general" but i think it might just be an oversight or leftover from the playtest again.

mutagenist field discovery wrote:
You can gain the benefit of any mutagen, even if it wasn’t specifically brewed for you.

That implies that mutagen needs to be brewed for a specific person in general, can't craft mutagen in the morning and gives to anyone. However that restrictions only surfaces in the mutagenist field discovery, it seems weird that there is no rule somewhere else saying that. Is it an oversight? There was a restriction clearly spelled out in the playtest but not anymore in the final version. Did they just forget to remove this now obsolete clause from the field discovery?

From the mutagen section (p. 546):

Typically, only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens

That implies that if you aren't an alchemist, you can't take the Alchemical Crafting feat to craft mutagens, but you could craft any other alchemical item?

The "typically" part is a bit vague, if they wanted this restriction, why not just saying "only alchemists have the expertise to craft mutagens"?

Xenocrat wrote:
According to an allegedly comprehensive proficiency chart, fighters get legendary, barbarians, monks and mutagen alchemists get master, druids get expert, and everyone else is trained in unarmed attacks.

Mutagenists only get Expert to simple weapons and unarmed attacks btw.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Even if this analysis is totally correct, an Animal Companion is still potentially very good mechanically. Let's look at a Bear. If you're high level your Bear is flanking with you and Supports you, you get +2 to-hit and gain an extra 2d8 damage on every hit you make. That's fantastic.

Good point about the support for bears, for a wolf and other companions it's much less interesting e.g.

Support Benefit wrote:
Your wolf tears tendons with each opening. Until the start of your next turn, your Strikes that damage creatures your wolf threatens give the target a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 minute (–10 on a critical success).

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Wow great analysis. So based on this, it looks like animal companions are pretty garbage and not worth the feats and action investment.
Only benefit I can see outside of flavor really is for a rogue with ranger/druid dedication to get a flanking buddy...

I see, I should have thought about checking the main Debilitating Strike itself.

Debilitating Strike wrote:
Trigger Your Strike hits a flat-footed creature and deals damage

Precise Debilitation wrote:

You carefully aim and gracefully deliver your debilitations. Add the following debilitations to the list you can choose from when you use Debilitating Strike.

Debilitation The target takes an additional 2d6 precision damage from your attacks.
Debilitation The target becomes flat-footed.

Would the precision damage only triggers on subsequent attacks or on that attack as well? Would that stack with sneak attack?

Rangers with Flurry (hunter's edge) and Twin Takedown would be 0, -2, -4, -4 with Agile weapons against their prey iiuc making rangers the best class for multiple attacks.

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