Does casting spell-like ability count as casting spells?

[Silver Iris]

Let's cut to the chase,will Versatile Evocation(Admixture School Power) apply on Kineticist's blast?

[Diego Rossi]

No.

Quote:

Versatile Evocation (Su): When you cast an evocation spell

A Kineticist's blast is a spell-like ability, not a spell.

To affect a spell-like ability you need something that specifically says that it affects spell-like abilities.

[Melkiador]

More problematic, I don’t think kinetic blasts are evocation.

The feats that work with summoning spells work with summoning SLAs, so an ability that works with evocation spells probably works with evocation SLAs. But again, I don’t think kinetic blasts are ever defined as being evocation.

[Chell Raighn]

For an ability that affects spells to apply to a spell-like ability the spell-like ability must directly replicate a specific spell, and the ability being applied to it must specifically affect the replicated spell.

Kinetic blast does not fit this criteria.

[Diego Rossi]

Melkiador wrote:

More problematic, I don’t think kinetic blasts are evocation.

The feats that work with summoning spells work with summoning SLAs, so an ability that works with evocation spells probably works with evocation SLAs. But again, I don’t think kinetic blasts are ever defined as being evocation.

Augment Summoning works with Summon monster or Summon nature's ally spell-like abilities because there is a FAQ that says so, and because the SLAs say that they work as those specific spells.

A Kineticist's blast doesn't work as any spell.

[Tom Sampson]

The feat Flumefire Rage strongly implies that Kinetic Blast should be treated as casting an evocation spell. If we allow that to work, then we have to allow Versatile Evocation to work as well.

Part of the problem is the old quandary of how much we regard SLAs to be spells. To work that one out, let's look at the relevant section of the Magic chapter of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook:

Quote:

Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.

If SLAs work as and function just like a spell does, then the question is does a SLA count as a spell for purposes of effects? One thing worth noting is that the SLA rules provide a provision for working out the spell level of a SLA that is not based on an actual spell, which would be completely meaningless and unnecessary if these SLAs are not to be treated as spells. Based on this, I largely treat SLAs as counting as actual spells for purposes of effects, unless it interacts with something specific to being a spellcaster (like spell slots). If there is information missing (like what school the SLA is), my take is the GM has to make a ruling and give it his best guess. So if you want to take Spell Perfection on a SLA, I'd let you and you can double your feat bonuses, but you still don't get free metamagic on the SLA.

So my overall ruling would be to let you do this, especially given the implications of the Flumefire Rage feat.

On the whole, I suspect you'll have to accept some table variation on this issue and ask your GM, since I know not every GM accepts SLAs being treated as spells and will draw the line of distinction in different places.

[Diego Rossi]

Tom Sampson wrote:

The feat Flumefire Rage strongly implies that Kinetic Blast should be treated as casting an evocation spell.

Strongly?

At most, it implies that, in the mind of whoever wrote the feat, some wild talent is considered an evocation, but without anything saying what are the evocations, it proves nothing.

It is in a splatbook printed in 2017. I doubt there was much quality control when assembling it.

[Melkiador]

If we were to ascribe schools to the various blasts, they’d be in different schools. Telekinetic blast should be transmutation like mage hand. Earth blast would be conjuration(creation). Most of the energy blasts would probably be evocation. Dark blast would be necromancy. The composite blasts would be all over the place.

[Tom Sampson]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Tom Sampson wrote:

The feat Flumefire Rage strongly implies that Kinetic Blast should be treated as casting an evocation spell.

Strongly?

Strongly as far as the fire element kinetic blast is concerned, at least.

Quote:

At most, it implies that, in the mind of whoever wrote the feat, some wild talent is considered an evocation, but without anything saying what are the evocations, it proves nothing.

That is a narrow reading not supported by the text, and it frankly sounds as if you are rushing to act dismissive. The Flumefire Rage feat states that "If you do [use the feat for bonus damage], you must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC = 15 + the spell or blast’s level) or become fatigued." The phrase "blast's level" makes it rather obvious that it is referring to kinetic blast.

Quote:

It is in a splatbook printed in 2017. I doubt there was much quality control when assembling it.

It is what it is.

Melkiador wrote:

If we were to ascribe schools to the various blasts, they’d be in different schools. Telekinetic blast should be transmutation like mage hand. Earth blast would be conjuration(creation). Most of the energy blasts would probably be evocation. Dark blast would be necromancy. The composite blasts would be all over the place.

Aye, that's how I would rule things too. Composite blasts would just count as both schools of magic in my view, just like using Words of Power to combine effect words from multiple schools.

[Sandslice]

Tom Sampson wrote:

The feat Flumefire Rage strongly implies that Kinetic Blast should be treated as casting an evocation spell. If we allow that to work, then we have to allow Versatile Evocation to work as well.

Kinetic blast does not have a school.

[Azothath]

Tom Sampson wrote:

The feat Flumefire Rage strongly implies that Kinetic Blast should be treated as casting an evocation spell.

No

devs have said again and again (Sp)/SLAs are not casting a spell. very old news

There is a lot of language in kineticist class to put kineticist abilities as stand alone abilities.