| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This Paizo blog entry doesn't answer every question, but does lay down some of the design team's intent. Replies by Jason Bulmahn and James Jacobs in the thread that follows provide some additional thoughts.
Basically, animals with an Intelligence of 3+ ...
1. ... are supposed to be the exception rather than the rule
2. ... are not "awakened" in the same sense as animals affected by the Awaken spell
3. ... still need to be told what to do via Handle Animal
4. ... still bound by their physiology/anatomy in terms of what they can do
5. ... are not magical beasts
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
#3 is more complicated than that. The animal can choose to learn a language, but can't speak it. The animal can attempt to understand how to do something without a trick being required, and can learn what to do based on previous experiences with a situation.
Basically, the animal still needs training to be reliable, but if you want to trial and error your way through a situation it could eventually figure it out. I think Baby Groot in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 is a good example of this. You can say words to him and he knows the words have meaning, but he still isn't sure what you wanted with those words.
As maybe not politically correct as it is to say this, with an intelligence of 7, the animal has the intelligence of a very slow real life person. They can almost certainly figure out very simple things on their own and can also understand slightly complex things if it would be intuitive to them (e.g. a wolf and hunting patterns) but outside of that, they'd be pretty helpless on their own. Teaching them is still very slow, but still much faster than a normal animal companion, but as they are not awakened, they don't have free will apart from their master and likely look to their master in all regards. It most certainly still has a higher wisdom and so relies on instinct before reflecting on the intricacies what it does and doesn't know, though it is also well aware enough to know what it knows even if this is very limited.
The main things an animal gains from awaken aside from the intelligence is the increased HD and bonus to their other stats. They obviously don't get this but the general ideas behind what an intelligent animal can do are still good guidelines, but it still has to follow the rules for an animal companion otherwise.
i would just like add and direct you to the last line of the companion page in the 'Archives of Nethys' (which is considered an official paizo source) which talks about feats the animal companion can normally take and reads:
"Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can select any feat they are physically capable of using. GMs might expand this list to include feats from other sources."
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Increasing an animal’s Intelligence to 3 or higher means it is smart enough to understand a language. However, unless an awaken spell is used, the animal doesn’t automatically and instantly learn a language, any more than a human child does. The animal must be taught a language, usually over the course of months, giving it the understanding of the meaning of words and sentences beyond its trained responses to commands like “attack” and “heel.”
Even if the animal is taught to understand a language, it probably lacks the anatomy to actually speak (unless awaken is used). For example, dogs, elephants, and even gorillas lack the proper physiology to speak humanoid languages, though they can use their limited “vocabulary” of sounds to articulate concepts, especially if working with a person who learns what the sounds mean.
An intelligent animal is smart enough to use tools, but might lack the ability to manipulate them. A crow could be able to use simple lockpicks, but a dog can’t. Even if the animal is physically capable of using a tool, it might still prefer its own natural body to manufactured items, especially when it comes to weapons. An intelligent gorilla could hold or wield a sword, but its inclination is to make slam attacks. No amount of training (including weapon proficiency feats) is going to make it fully comfortable attacking in any other way.
Even if an animal’s Intelligence increases to 3 or higher, you must still use the Handle Animal skill to direct the animal, as it is a smart animal rather than a low-intelligence person (using awaken is an exception— an awakened animal takes orders like a person). The GM should take the animal’s Intelligence into account when determining its response to commands or its behavior when it doesn’t have specific instructions. For example, an intelligent wolf companion can pick the weakest-looking target if directed to do so, and that same wolf trapped in a burning building might push open a door or window without being told.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd also like to add its the same with non human races it doesn't matter how smart or wise they are, it matters they don't think the same way humans do. An elf can be inhumanly intelligent but still struggle to grasp acting in terms of 1 to 5 years because that's a hard period too long to be immediate and too short for proper planning. My aforementioned wolf will have moved from instinctive reactions to recognizing a long term threat even if they're not immediately threatened but their response will be far more flight or fight than a human. For example they recognize the normal politicing to threaten their human and go for the throat to eliminate them in a literal sense.
Now roleplaying this will differ player to player both in how they view these races and in how well they can roleplay them. However as a GM I'd be taking the player apart so they don't feel put on the spot and just having a talk about how while their companion in this case is comparable to a slow human they fundamentally aren't human and aren't going to think or react like one even if they increase their int to above humnan average. They may learn to interact with humans but they will never think like them. So yes for my games that animal companion will be comparably as smart as a humanoid with that int but they wont think LIKE a human. Just like mind flayers, aboleth's, elves and the like don't think like humans even if they can deal with them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This Paizo blog entry doesn't answer every question, but does lay down some of the design team's intent. Replies by Jason Bulmahn and James Jacobs in the thread that follows provide some additional thoughts.
Basically, animals with an Intelligence of 3+ ...
1. ... are supposed to be the exception rather than the rule
2. ... are not "awakened" in the same sense as animals affected by the Awaken spell
3. ... still need to be told what to do via Handle Animal
4. ... still bound by their physiology/anatomy in terms of what they can do
5. ... are not magical beasts
I would add, in addition to number 3 remember that this companion probably has a ton of tricks (a mechanical term if you're not familiar) it knows and can probably do a lot without needing to be pushed so it doesn't require extra actions from the handler and the animal knows how to do the task so no chance of misunderstanding instructions.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is also this bit from griffons:
due to their intelligence, trained griffons can be treated as knowing every trick listed in the Handle Animal skill description, possibly even responding to new, simple requests made in Common
Griffons are only intelligence 5
|
|
There is also this bit from griffons:
due to their intelligence, trained griffons can be treated as knowing every trick listed in the Handle Animal skill description, possibly even responding to new, simple requests made in CommonGriffons are only intelligence 5
Griffons are magical beasts, not animals. They play by a different set of rules.
Note that Magical Beasts are not all 3+ intelligence, Hippogriffs are the immediate counter example to Griffons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I’m really surprised that there isn’t just a rule that animals can never have their intelligence raised above 2. And then everything that explicitly gets increased to 3+ intelligence, like a familiar or paladin mount simply switches to being a magical beast.
With this, maybe just make magical beast a subtype of animal. The difference doesn’t seem to add value
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
one of my plyers has an animal companion with with intelligence of 7, and insists that now she's sentient and acts acts as and has the understanding of a humanoid of int 7,is this the case or is it still an animal and has limited understanding
Is it a courtly hunter animal companion? They count as Magical Beasts for a lot of things.
I’m really surprised that there isn’t just a rule that animals can never have their intelligence raised above 2. And then everything that explicitly gets increased to 3+ intelligence, like a familiar or paladin mount simply switches to being a magical beast.
With this, maybe just make magical beast a subtype of animal. The difference doesn’t seem to add value
Because again, the 3+ int isn't explicitly a rule that magical beasts even follow. Animal companions aren't even strictly mundane animals by the time as they are supernaturally pressured into serving their masters and gain powers an animal otherwise never could.
The funny thing is animals already had this limitation in the game. It’s just that we immediately ignored this rule.
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Low-light vision.
So technically your animal with 3+ intelligence no longer counts an animal. That doesn’t mean it’s a magical beast either. But it’s no longer actually an animal.
|
The funny thing is animals already had this limitation in the game. It’s just that we immediately ignored this rule.So technically your animal with 3+ intelligence no longer counts an animal. That doesn’t mean it’s a magical beast either. But it’s no longer actually an animal.Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Low-light vision.
yet there are rules and FAQs about what happenswhen you do raise your companions int to more than 2.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I get that people really want their intelligent animal companions to be independent actors. But we have clear language from Ultimate Campaign explaining how it is supposed to work. Going backwards to the CRB or Bestiary to attempt to poke holes in Paizo’s own logic is just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Ultimate Campaign has a lot of good clarifications on a variety of subjects scattered throughout the book. But for a variety of reasons they don’t get referenced as often as they should.
2) Many of the UC sections are written in a more casual “here’s how you’re supposed to handle it” tone than a lot of the other books. Which is uncomfortably close to explaining “RAI” for those who prefer very strict and logically complete rules.
3) Minorly, there are always those who came up with clever, power-increasing exploits and simply don’t want to accept that Paizo designers are saying the exploit shouldn’t be allowed. So they either ignore UC or try to argue that UC didn’t completely close off their ideas by trying to find the tiniest cracks in the language rather than accepting Paizo meant what they wrote.
Assuming no use of magic items, and that its not a monstrous companion… the only way I can see for an animal companion to have a 7 int is the Precocious Companion archetype… and even then only after character level 14… by which point power level of players should be high enough that it honestly doesn’t even matter if you let them allow their per full autonomy as an intelligent creature or require them to still direct them as usual…
If they have an int of 7 through a magic item much earlier in levels… it may make them more intelligent and understand things easier, but they are still not fully sentient.
If they are a monstrous companion that started with a higher int, like gryphons… consult the monster entry.
Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
That's some very odd wording. It may be that bonuses to the mount must first increase from the base 2, before they can reach and exceed the 6.
Can you expand on that? I'm not grasping what you offered, Melkiador.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can you expand on that? I'm not grasping what you offered, Melkiador.
The paladin mount has 2 intellect with a minimum 6. If it got +2, it'd be at 4 intellect with a minimum 6.
I don't understand how you arrived at that, unless you're simply trying to reconcile two contradictory rules.
At the end of the day, the Paladin's class feature provides a specific exception to the general limitation that is placed on creatures of the Animal type. Until I read your reply, my assumption had always been that the GM is being given discretion to assign an Intelligence score of at least 6 to the bonded mount in question, which can then be increased through the means normally available to animal companions and their masters.
Can you expand on that? I'm not grasping what you offered, Melkiador.The paladin mount has 2 intellect with a minimum 6. If it got +2, it'd be at 4 intellect with a minimum 6.
So the first 4 points of intelligence gain a paladins mount gains provides no actual change to the creature? I think this is flawed both RAW and RAI.
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the paladin’s level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Is clearly an exception to normal rules for animals.
The rules for the intelligence stat also add some clarification.
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.
It’s entirely possible to have a standard animal companion with an INT score of 7 by 4th level with the right build. Choose either Human or Halfling as a race and choose the Eye for Talent ART for human or the Caretaker ART for halfling. Either will let you add +2 to the ability score of your choice for animal companions, familiars, etc. Then choose any companion with a base INT of 2 and a 4th level advancement (Ape for example) and give it the Precocious Companion archetype. Finally use its 4th level ability score increase to increase its INT by 1. So you get 2 INT base, +2 ART, +2 archetype, +1 ability score increase for a total of 7.