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Oh and yes, Mark did not say whether or not a "no effect" touch attack is allowed to be made or not. That's the important part. He didn't say it wasn't allowed, but instead assigned the decision to individual GMs.
That is NOT what he said… what he said comes across as “it is not really allowed by the rules, but if a GM wants to allow it, this is how I would rule it”.
When someone says something along the line of “if a GM want to allow it,” that doesn’t mean “its not not allowed,” it means “its not intended to be allowed, but if you want too…”
Honestly, even if that interpretation were correct it wouldn't explicitly follow that allowing iterative touch attacks would automatically allow Spellstrike to target touch AC.
Spellstrike is still specifically a Melee attack, not a Touch attack. You would be able to use your offhand to try to touch an enemy between attacks if you wanted to, but this would not use the weapon's reach, critical threat range or enhancement bonuses , making these "Touch attacks" nothing to do with the Spellstrike ability.
I’m not sure this is entirely correct… you are probably right about crit threat range and enhancement bonuses as well as any other bonuses or effects applied to the weapon itself… however reach is an entirely different story. If you deliver a touch spell through a reach weapon, there is nothing preventing you from using the full reach of the weapon. Its no different than a witch with prehensile hair delivering touch spells at 10ft reach, or casting long arm on yourself to get reach.
That aside… it isn’t entirely clear if a magus can in fact deliver a touch spell as a touch attack through their weapon, though the wording of spellstrike does seem to heavily imply that they can.
[Now to go read Diego's wall of text :)Wall of citations and self-citations, please. The actual new text is 6 rows. ;-)
I'm sure you have read plenty of my WoT (Walls of Text), so its probably fair in any case.
That aside… it isn’t entirely clear if a magus can in fact deliver a touch spell as a touch attack through their weapon, though the wording of spellstrike does seem to heavily imply that they can.
Can you elaborate on your thinking with this?
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
By my reading, if you are using spellstrike, you are using a regular melee attack with your weapon. If you are not doing a regular melee attack, then spellstrike is not part of the rules governing what you can or cannot do.
Honestly, even if that interpretation were correct it wouldn't explicitly follow that allowing iterative touch attacks would automatically allow Spellstrike to target touch AC.
Spellstrike is still specifically a Melee attack, not a Touch attack. You would be able to use your offhand to try to touch an enemy between attacks if you wanted to, but this would not use the weapon's reach, critical threat range or enhancement bonuses , making these "Touch attacks" nothing to do with the Spellstrike ability.
I’m not sure this is entirely correct… you are probably right about crit threat range and enhancement bonuses as well as any other bonuses or effects applied to the weapon itself… however reach is an entirely different story. If you deliver a touch spell through a reach weapon, there is nothing preventing you from using the full reach of the weapon. Its no different than a witch with prehensile hair delivering touch spells at 10ft reach, or casting long arm on yourself to get reach.
That aside… it isn’t entirely clear if a magus can in fact deliver a touch spell as a touch attack through their weapon, though the wording of spellstrike does seem to heavily imply that they can.
Here's my reasoning.
Let's say that Wonderstell's interpretation is correct, and that you can deliver Touch attacks as iterative attacks with your hands. This is generally NOT something that can be done through weapons, you'd have to use a hand instead. But then the Magus has Spellstrike ...
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
The key part of the sentence there is: "as part of a melee attack". If the sentence didn't include that then yes, that would seem reasonable that the weapon could use touch iteratives like casters can. But Spellstrike only allows you to deliver spells through your weapon as part of a melee attack. It's not even a separate sentence, it's all right there in the 1 sentence. Allowing touch attacks with the weapon would require text to allow it, and that text isn't there.
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Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.The key part of the sentence there is: "as part of a melee attack". If the sentence didn't include that then yes,...
The problem, I think, is that some people consider a melee touch attack as a subcategory of a melee attack, and so, to them, a melee attack includes both kinds of attack.
The CRB doesn't have a touch attack section under the Attack Action section, instead, it has a Touch Attacks under Armor Class (and it covers both ranged and touch attacks) and a Touch Spells in Combat section under the Cast a Spell section.
What matter in this discussion is how a Touch Spell work in combat.
As Mark said in the thread Wondersell liked:
Natural incorporeal touch attacks follow a different rule than touch spells and are two separate questions.
(it is in the wall of text).
Touch Spells in Combat says "You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge."
Ultra-strict RAW you can't even make a touch attack against an opponent while holding a spell, but this FAQ has clarified that:
Touch Spells: In the Magic and Combat chapters, it says that I can touch a single ally as a standard action or up to six allies as a full-round action and that I can combine delivering a touch spell with a natural attack or unarmed strike. But what if I just want to deliver the touch spell to an enemy? It just says I can do it “round after round.”
Making a touch attack against an enemy by touching it, beyond the free action to do so as part of casting the spell, is a standard action. It can’t be used with a full attack.
posted February 2017 | back to top
Spellstrike doesn't change that.
It is a matter of people misreading the rules.
Melee Touch Attack isn't a subcategory of the attack action, it is part of Casting a Spell.
It would have been clear if Table 8-2 had a specific entry for "Touch an opponent while holding a charge"? Sure. But the table is there to sum up what is in the chapter, it isn't the only rule source in the chapter.
Spellstrike matters because it makes it so the charge is on the weapon not the hand...
...With spellstrike you can deliver the spell using the weapon held at time of casting.
You've repeated this several times now but have yet to address the following:
Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell.
Note the bolded part. If the magus can pick up a weapon, even that same weapon... then the weapon might not be the same weapon. If it is not the same weapon, but the spell is stored in the weapon held at the time of casting, how does the magus now use the picked up weapon (that is not the same weapon) to deliver the spell through spellstrike?
If you are unable to provide a rational for this the discussion cannot progress.