Maintaining a Grapple and Miss Chance


Rules Questions


So let's say you're fighting some punk who has Displacement on. So in order to get to him, you need to beat the miss chance. After rolling miss chances for your grapple attempt, you get a grip on him. Come his turn, he tries to break free, but fails. Next round, you go to maintain the grapple. Here are the relevant rules text:

Grapple wrote:
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Now, the rules says in order for you to maintain the grapple, you have to make a check or it breaks free, and a successful check also allows you to make another action in the options listed in conjunction with the check. The damage option says you simply deal damage with an unarmed strike or claw or whatever you used to maintain the grapple.

So, since maintaining the Grapple isn't necessarily an attack, and you can outright deal damage with the maintained grapple check, does that mean you would be able to ignore the miss chance in this manner (until he breaks free or you let go and have to initiate a grapple again), since you aren't making an attack, or would it still apply?


If I were going to do anything, I'd give the guy grappled a small circumstance modifier to his CMD, per an invisible creature in a grapple. But as for a flat 50% miss to maintain, that's silly. You've already got a hold on the guy, you FEEL him. It doesn't matter that his image looks a couple inches in another direction.


glossary wrote:

Grappled: ...

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit .

Making a grapple check to maintain is still an attack, but once you are grappled most concealment effects simply won't work. I struggle to justify not applying the rule on invisibility to blur/displacement etc.

I can see ruling that a displaced opponent as having a similar advantage as an invisible one though. I imagine that having your arms about what feels like someones body while he appears to wriggle about somewhere over your left shoulder to be somewhat disorienting.


dragonhunterq wrote:
glossary wrote:

Grappled: ...

A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit .

Making a grapple check to maintain is still an attack, but once you are grappled most concealment effects simply won't work. I struggle to justify not applying the rule on invisibility to blur/displacement etc.

I can see ruling that a displaced opponent as having a similar advantage as an invisible one though. I imagine that having your arms about what feels like someones body while he appears to wriggle about somewhere over your left shoulder to be somewhat disorienting.

I'm not so sure that's the case. If it was an attack, you'd be making the roll against their AC, not their CMD, for starters. The Grapple section doesn't call out maintaining the grapple as an attack, simply that it's a check you make if you want to hold the grapple, and it's supported by the factor that a successful check doesn't allow for an attack roll, but automatic damage from the limb maintaining the grapple (unarmed strike or claw in most cases).

Similarly, it calls out that Grapple takes a Standard Action to do, and it can't be done in place of an attack like other maneuvers can, meaning that argument isn't supported by what the RAW restrictions of Grapple are.

Additionally, the entry you cited makes no mention of concealment whatsoever; even the Stealth subject it cites to "hide from the creature grappling it" isn't the same as what Displacement provides, nor is it applicable to the situation, since Displacement isn't the same as a person trying to actively be out of sight and perception of the target. It's a wavering image of the character that alters their percepted location in comparison to their actual location.

@ Brotato: The whole "Invisibility" subject isn't really applicable, since it's not like you can't see the subject, nor can't you actually pin-point his square if you couldn't actually see invisible creatures. It's an exception listed in the Displacement spell that it makes outside of it being Total Concealment. It's just his actual location in the square may or may not be where you see him at, hence the miss chance; my question is if, when maintaining a grapple, you don't have to bother with that miss chance since you are actively holding on to the target.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Maintaining a Grapple and Miss Chance All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.