If and when would a druid be able to take the final embrace feat?


Rules Questions


Do you think that feat line is worth it?


I think it can be depending on your build. Though as written the line has a dead feat, ability focus, that's hard to justify taking.

I would say as soon as the druid was able to use a constrictor snake to qualify the she could take it. It's also a strange feat in that it gives you it's own prerequisites.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

You can't use its own prerequisites to qualify for it. So you need to meet the prereqs to use the feat.


If I wanted to be a constrictor snake focus druid, is it worth it.


Personally I have found the feat strongest with Summoners (Synthesist Types) and Hunters.

If youa re druid, your best bet would be to take a single level dip into Mammoth Rider. You can then ramp up your snake to huge size, giving LARGE bonuses to CMB, and allowing grappling of everything up to Collosal (or is it gargantuan?)


Taenia wrote:
You can't use its own prerequisites to qualify for it. So you need to meet the prereqs to use the feat.

I disagree with this but that's just my opinion.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
If I wanted to be a constrictor snake focus druid, is it worth it.

If that's what you want to do then yes it is. I like the feat line, except the ability focus burn feat.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Onyxlion wrote:
Taenia wrote:
You can't use its own prerequisites to qualify for it. So you need to meet the prereqs to use the feat.
I disagree with this but that's just my opinion.

It is not a matter of opinion. The rules say that you need to have the prerequisite to take a feat. You can't use the abilities given by the feat to qualify for it.

Note that the feat don't work if the druid isn't in a form that give him the constrict special attack. While in forms without that ability he lack the prerequisite.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:
Taenia wrote:
You can't use its own prerequisites to qualify for it. So you need to meet the prereqs to use the feat.
I disagree with this but that's just my opinion.

It is not a matter of opinion. The rules say that you need to have the prerequisite to take a feat. You can't use the abilities given by the feat to qualify for it.

Note that the feat don't work if the druid isn't in a form that give him the constrict special attack. While in forms without that ability he lack the prerequisite.

Its like taking str damage till str9 and cant power attack anymore?


K177Y C47 wrote:

Personally I have found the feat strongest with Summoners (Synthesist Types) and Hunters.

If youa re druid, your best bet would be to take a single level dip into Mammoth Rider. You can then ramp up your snake to huge size, giving LARGE bonuses to CMB, and allowing grappling of everything up to Collosal (or is it gargantuan?)

Unfortunately, a single level dip gets you +2 strength (+1 CMB), -1 to attack rolls (-1 CMB), and a size bonus (+1 CMB over large). With the -2 dex, CMD ends up a wash. +1 total CMB is nice, but I don't know if it alone is worth a dip.

As for grappling, there aren't any size restrictions on what you can grapple (a small creature can in theory grapple a huge creature if it can overcome its own size penalties and the opponents size bonuses). The exception is grab, which normally maxes out at the same size as the attacker (this has been through errata, so careful on publish date when checking).
One more thing, Mammoth rider normally requires you to have certain animal companions as steeds. Unfortunately, snakes aren't on that list.
Sorry. I don't mean to critique, I just thought you might want a heads up.


Quote:
Its like taking str damage till str9 and cant power attack anymore?

Ability damage doesn't work like that. It doesn't reduce the score at all. A character with 14 strength who has taken 6 points of strength damage still has a 14 strength, not 8 strength. You can still power attack, because you still have a strength of 14.

Quote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

Ability drain, on the other hand, does reduce the ability.


Jeraa wrote:
Quote:
Its like taking str damage till str9 and cant power attack anymore?

Ability damage doesn't work like that. It doesn't reduce the score at all. A character with 14 strength who has taken 6 points of strength damage still has a 14 strength, not 8 strength. You can still power attack, because you still have a strength of 14.

Quote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

Ability drain, on the other hand, does reduce the ability.

Good catch. I just realized that ability score damage / penalty doesn't apply to carrying capacity because of this. Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't seem quite as bad now.


Jeraa wrote:
Quote:
Its like taking str damage till str9 and cant power attack anymore?

Ability damage doesn't work like that. It doesn't reduce the score at all. A character with 14 strength who has taken 6 points of strength damage still has a 14 strength, not 8 strength. You can still power attack, because you still have a strength of 14.

Quote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

Ability drain, on the other hand, does reduce the ability.

Awesome possum sauce.

Scarab Sages

Onyxlion wrote:

I think it can be depending on your build. Though as written the line has a dead feat, ability focus, that's hard to justify taking.

Read the FAQ, ability focus is dropped from the prerequisites.


Imbicatus wrote:
Onyxlion wrote:

I think it can be depending on your build. Though as written the line has a dead feat, ability focus, that's hard to justify taking.

Read the FAQ, ability focus is dropped from the prerequisites.

Oh man I missed that, heck yeah.


Also this is from the feats section.

Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

No where does it say I can't use what the feat gives me to maintain it's prerequisites. Final embrace is a special feat in that it gives you everything it wants as a prerequisite. It's poorly written and maybe that wasn't the intention but like I said before that's my opinion.


You're missing the point. A PRE-requisite is something that a creature is required to have PRIOR to being able to SELECT said Feat (which you actually quoted but didn't seem to notice). The very prefix PRE disallows you from taking Final Embrace without first having constrict. It's the same reason you couldn't take a feat with a prerequisite of Diplomacy +10 that gave you a +2 to Diplomacy if your Diplomacy was only +8.


Brotato wrote:
You're missing the point. A PRE-requisite is something that a creature is required to have PRIOR to being able to SELECT said Feat (which you actually quoted but didn't seem to notice). The very prefix PRE disallows you from taking Final Embrace without first having constrict. It's the same reason you couldn't take a feat with a prerequisite of Diplomacy +10 that gave you a +2 to Diplomacy if your Diplomacy was only +8.

I missed nothing. What I'm saying is that once you qualify to take the feat then it sustains itself. Like say a druid wildshaping or using a serpentine eidolon then changing the base.

Edit: I'm saying that you do have to qualify for it before you can take it.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If you don't meet the prerequisites, you can still take the feat, you just can't use it (such as a druid taking a feat for natural attacks for when he is wildshaped).

Scarab Sages

If it's that important to you, you could always invest in either a belt of anaconda's coils or a two level dip into white haired witch. Both give you a constrict attack that isn't dependent on wild shape.


Onyxlion wrote:

Also this is from the feats section.

Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

No where does it say I can't use what the feat gives me to maintain it's prerequisites. Final embrace is a special feat in that it gives you everything it wants as a prerequisite. It's poorly written and maybe that wasn't the intention but like I said before that's my opinion.

Actually you quoted the place where it says you need to have the prereq. You also quoted to place where it states if you lose the prereq you lose access to the benefit of the feat. Ergo, you cannot use the feat to sustain itself.

As soon as you lose the prereq you lose use of the feat, the feat having been lost for use, no longer provides the prereq you need. It doesn't have to say you cannot use the feat to qualify for itself because the order of operations in the logic prevent that from ever occurring.

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