Lets go with the worst case scenario, eh? Lets say theoretically drifting can free Rovagug and lets assume that the combined efforts of all the other gods for some reason cannot beat him again. Lets calculate some odds, eh?
9 afterlives means 9 planes (lets not even get into the question of if each layer of Hell is infinite).
Astral+Ethereal+Shadow+Dimension of Dreams is 4 more.
Elemental Planes is 4 more.
Positive+Negative Energy Planes is 2 more.
Plus all the demi planes which may or may not be infinite.
That gives me a 1 in (19 x Infinity) chance that I'll free Rovagug. I'll take those odds.
As for the bomb going of somewhere in those 19 infinities, isn't that also a chance you take every time you, again, jump into a car? That you'll kill someone or multiple people? Taking a look at the numbers again, I only gave you the answer for people in the US. There are over a million people killed by cars each year. That's a LOT of people. So again, cars must be evil right? Because each time you jump into one, you don't know if you're going to end someone's life?
EDIT for Matthew:
See, if we are going with that argument, I'll throw my hands up in the air because I personally don't know how to respond to that. I'll concede to someone who thinks using cars are evil. But not to the logic that using cars AREN'T evil but drifitng is.
Yes, theoretically that is possible. Rovagug could be freed. So could any number of good aligned forces. Neutral. Doesn't have to balance out perfectly. Could be neutral leaning good or evil. But point being the fact that it could go either way, and the fact that the rules don't say that its evil, and the fact that it is allowed it doesn't affect your standing in SF Society at all leads one to think that it's fine.
Putting it another way, is experimentation with, heck I don't know... nuclear energy inherently evil because there is a chance things could go wrong and kill a LOT of people? Is using fossil fuels inherently evil because in the long run wrong because it will screw up the environment to such as extent that it might kill lots of people? Is getting into a car itself inherently evil because there is a chance that I might hit someone? After all, "I am risking the death of other creatures for my gain."
Or is it fair to say that the odds of that happening are so ASTRONOMICALLY small that it is a neutral action? It's not like the usage of cars ISN'T the cause of many deaths. 40k people died from automobile related events last year. It must be evil to use cars! If they didn't exist 40k people would still be alive!
Well the RAW answer as far as whether using Drift engines is evil or not is: No. No it isn't evil. Otherwise the rules would say that it is evil.
The RAI answer is likely, "No. No because we want you to play the game without a stick in the mud space paladin deciding you have to die because you want to travel somewhere."
The common sense answer... is hard to explain. The Dead Suns argument is hard to show that it is evil because, say, because theoretically I could use a Drift engine and have it do some good too. What if Drifting frees some Good outsider who was trapped in an interdimensional prison? You don't know that it COULD help people? See? MY previous comment is... sketchy at best and definitely laughable. You don't know whether or not using the Drift will cause something good to happen, something bad to happen, or nothing really of note to happen.
That's neutral. And as far as screwing up reality, I don't think anyone has to be worried that small chunks of infinite planes are being torn out and thrown into the Drift. Let me repeat that. Infinite planes. Chunks of infinite planes.
I love it. Nerf everything. I love the whining and hate the powergamers. The onslaught of complaints shows that too many powergamers have no concept of actual roleplay.
A Carriage (100gp) with some heavy combat-trained horses (300gp ea.) and a masterwork heavy repeating crossbow or two mounted to the roof (700gp ea.) and you can travel from town to town in STYLE and SAFETY!
Left over coin can be spent on surplus bolts if you anticipate trouble, caltrops if you anticipate speedy pursuers you'd like to slow down, as well as alchemist fires for those passengers who'd like to get in on the action too. For 3sp/day you can even hire a trained driver if no one in your party can serve as a teamster!
I am just going to put it out there. At least one source (The confirmation) explicitly states that Pathfinder agents are supposed to put the team, mission, and core tenents of the Pathfinder Society itself over any moral or THEOLOGICAL differences various members may have.
That being said, anyone who joins the Society should know that they will run into unsavory allies, right? And will have to put the team above their god? The word theological kind of implies that.
Night Vision (Ex): The barbarian's senses grow incredibly sharp while raging and she gains darkvision 60 feet. A barbarian must have low-light vision as a rage power or a racial trait to select this rage power.
Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his monk level until at 20th level he can use a nearby wall to slow his descent and fall any distance without harm. (A level 20 monk could fall off the tallest building in the world and not even get a scratch)
[Wizard Abjuration School Power] Resistance (Ex): You gain resistance 5 to an energy type of your choice, chosen when you prepare spells. This resistance can be changed each day. At 11th level, this resistance increases to 10. At 20th level, this resistance changes to immunity to the chosen energy type.
[Aberrent Bloodline] Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack. This ability does not otherwise increase your threatened area. At 11th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 10 feet. At 17th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 15 feet. (Bones that stretch out and then reform seconds later?)
[Undead Bloodline] One of Us (Ex): At 20th level, your form begins to rot (the appearance of this decay is up to you) and undead see you as one of them. You gain immunity to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. You also gain DR 5/—. Unintelligent undead do not notice you unless you attack them. You receive a +4 morale bonus on saving throws made against spells and spell-like abilities cast by undead.
Now the PC and his group must journey to the Abyss and find a way to stop Asmodeus' evil plan.
Now just hold on one second! Some people might be offended by that comment you see... Asomdeus is in charge of HELL, not the Abyss! The Abyss is where DEMONS live, while Hell is where Devils live. Gosh, some people are so insensitive.
Well, back to the original post, it may not have said clause anymore, but you can find PLENTY of examples of Ex abilities that not only break the laws of physics, but basic biology and chemistry as well. And that's just in Core.
Let's list CORE Ex abilities breaking various real life laws!:
Low-Light Vision and Scent rage powers. Because that would have to alter the physical, chemical, and biological makeup of the barbarian's eyes or nose to function.
A monk's fast movement, scaled up to level 20 let's said monk run (as per the action) 60 feet per second. Need I even explain why that is breaking the laws of physics?
Timeless Body as per the monk/druid ability. People in the real world don't just stop aging.
Venom Immunity as per the druid ability. No one is immune to poisons in real life. Trust me.
And that's not even getting into MONSTER abilities!
Hm... If the GM made a mistake and reported a session as non-Core, deleted the campaign and replaced it with a Core one, but our characters have still been infected by the disease of "Non-Coreness" should we wait for the mistake to be fixed before playing the character in more Core scenarios (which might effect some of us because we had games planned) or should we just continue to play normally?
I might also suggest a retooled Anti-Paladin, but a Lawful Evil version of the class. Instead of Smite-Good, Smite Chaos could work, while some of the other abilities could be somewhat similar to the Paladin (an Aura of Courage could still work).
Huh. i was actually just thinking of pulling something like this off. Except MY prerequisites will be Barb 2/Ranger 3, if only for the Favored Terrain and free Precise Shot (otherwise, I won't be able to switch hit very well). I also have a bit more Con and Wisdom on me from being a dwarf, but only 16 Strength.
I'm interested in hearing your experience with the character.
Merisiel of course! Because if this thread has taught me anything, that means I would also be dating James Jacobs. And I think that would have its perks.
Either that or I would be dating a T-Rex who just so happened to be named James Jacobs... which wouldn't be as exciting.
Ah, I remember my first time in a party when the barbarian was dominated :3
He cleaved two party members in half as soon as his turn came up (next) when he decided to crit (he was wielding a scythe) our healer and our monk. I remember it vividly, because the BBEG then cast sleep on the other members of the party. In fact... the only reason I was able to shift (teleportation subschool) out of sight was because I was an elf (I rolled, failed, and only then remembered the immunity).
I think useful is definite;y the way to go. For example, I ran a campaign that started off with Master of the Fallen Fortress. A character they rescued there happened to become a recurring character, acting as a source of information for the characters and providing boons as time went on. Needless to say when he was killed by the BBEG after reading a trapped note meant for the PCs, they were NOT amused.
Mind you, death isn't the only way to get them to act. Even something as simple as kidnapping an NPC they like while leaving them unharmed, or having a threat made against them would likely do it.
But again, make the NPC likable, someone who isn't an attention hog, but most of all, USEFUL to the party. PCs like people who help them unconditionally.
Oh. Don't forget that ther should not be any staircases, especially in the upper floors. Minions shouldn't be up ther anyways, and you DO have access to magical flight after all.
Or... Like Comissioner Gordan, the VCs in the Society aren't trying to contact the social identity, because hey do not know who it is. Maybe they try to contact the vigilante directly, by flashing the bat signal in the sky. Just a thought.
She confused the barbarian who then proceeded to one shot half of our party (oh cleave, how I hate you) then she put a fourth member to sleep, with me only being spared since my character was an elf. And she had MORE spells. At that point we did the smart thing... And bull rushed her towards the confused barbarian who then killed her too. Torch used Speak with Dead to get his information.
@Beckett I could not have said it better myself. Even in the faction goal reports here on the paizo forums, he open showed disdain for the Ten while still showing that he cared about th individual Pathfinder agents themselves.
Well Count, you see... He kind of wore that on his sleeve. The Shadow Lodge's main purpose was to help people screwed by the Decemvirate, so Shadow Lodge members, most of them anyways... Would likely be on board with weakening the Ten. Actually, the original Shadow Lodge was meant as a means of OPPOSING the Ten, while the members later on we're there because they were likely burned by the Ten in some form or another.
Dear Asmodeus, it all makes sense... someone replaced Torch's rubber ducky with an idiot ball which caused him to abandon all common sense!
But seriously, what plans could he possibly have that wouldn't be helped out by a few hundred/thousand loyal Shadow Lodge agents speeding up the process. He is true neutral, meaning it's not like he was planning to destroy the world or anything.
Thing is with Torch... He didn't HAVE to screw everyone over. What motivations would you have to do so? Great, you have what you wanted... Why in the hell would you just give up an army of loyal Shadow Lodge agents who would pretty much do whatever you ask? Why not, I don't know, just keep your vast array of humanoid resources at your disposal? Keep doing your behind the scenes stuff on your own time. If you're as good of a schemer as Torch is, there is no reason to show your hand to everyone.
I understand that Shadow Lodge was to be retired, and I will debate the wisdom of that elsewhere... But finding some other way would have been preferable. Do something befitting the character of both the schemer Torch and union leader Torch. For me, I am not upset that status quo changed, I am upset that it happened in the way that it did.
People hate him because of the... Questionable writing that took him completely out of character during those final few moments. And when I say out of character, I mean from starting off as basically a union leader to the Pathfinder Society's agents to basically flipping off everyone who was working for him while twirling a Snidely Whiplash style mustache and cackling as he teleports away, flaunting the fact that he doesn't need you anymore.
Granted, he has always been a schemer, but... His motivations for leaving were off, the WAY he left was off and most damningly, his entire personality is off.
Interestingly enough, I am headed off to college this August, and thus a new Pathfinder group as well. I am having my players as Shadow Lodge agents fighting against the Society's corruption and Aspis agents... and Torch will NOT totally turn into a bad guy so haphazardly. Shocking right?!
Anyways, I have him as an Absalom native. I am not sure if there is an official answer though.
You know, this reminds me of a different forum post I read a while back covering the same topic. I can't remember the exact detailing but it did culminate in a hilariously sarcastic post detailing the hilarity of attempting to get players to use their real life knowledge of social skills. It went a little something like this....
"Ah, so you feel that players should earn their diplomacy or intimidate rolls by telling you in detail what their character says? Why don't you apply that to other skills then?
If you want your fighter to make an attack roll, he better whip out a sword and demonstrate exactly HOW he attacks. After all, he has to earn that roll.
The rogue wants to pick a lock? Better hope she knows how to do it in real life because she has to earn that role.
And what about the cleric making a heal check? She has to detail the anatomy of the human body in what she is trying to fix. She has to earn that roll.
And the bard? He wants to use his Perform (Exotic Belly Dance) skill? Well then... He better EARN that roll."
I've always found that if a single player is intending to do something monumentally eh... poor in judgement, such as this, I step on that player but leave the rest of the party alone.
*Player attempts to kill the lich*
*The lich uses wish to transport the offending PC into the Negative Energy Plane* "That was odd. So anyways, as I was saying, I want you to help me deal with my apprentice."
I've always had the mindset that the story comes first, which is why I like rolling behind a screen. If the players are just rolling really badly and doing badly through no fault of their own, I don't capitalize on that as it simply frustrates the players even more. That is when my die tends to roll 'low'. The exception to this is of course in very climactic moments such as the end to a story arc, a confrontation with the BBEG or something very dramatic. This is to preserve the fact that the PCs are heroes who should not be pub stomped by any old group of goblins... unless they seem to ask for it. In which case, if I roll high, its fair game. (I define 'asking for it' as essentially ignoring the GM's Are you SURE you want to do that?)
I never fudge to give myself an advantage though. Only the players. The story comes first, and by the gods, I will move heaven and earth to make it fun for the players.
Unless of course I have a discussion with my players and they all really WANT a brutal game. Then I go nuts and roll in the open.
Oh, so you're giving TIGERS preferential treatment, huh? What, because the crane survived its OP?! Huh?!?! Huh!?!?! What next, we need to nerf rogues, because they have too many sneak attack dice?!?!
Starts frothing at the mouth while the rant continues.
...
Don't... don't mind me. I'm still saddened by my PFS character... let's not go there.
Here's an expensive one that I just heard: Throw someone into a vat of clw potions. Watch as they continuously are under the effects of drowning, while never truly dying. Repeat until the vat is empty. You might be there a while.
Lets say a member of the Decemvirite wants my Pathfinder to bring him a soy latte. How am I supposed to know this guy asking for a latte is one of the Ten? The masks aren't well enough known to be identifiable, even someone in a really big really weird mask could be any joker with some paper mache.
Simple. The Decemvirate are also in known positions of power, like titled nobility or Venture Captainships.
Actually that would be brilliant. The Decemvirate disguising themselves as lower level Venture Captains, or even faction leaders. "Surprise! Zarta isn't REALLY an 8th level bard/4th level aristocrat. She is really a gestalt level 20 bard/sorcerer with a maxed out mythic ranks!"
I also think there is a case to be made about them secretly moonlighting as the Patrons of the Aspis Consortium.
