Effects of using evil spells


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Bandw2 wrote:
if there's no mention of a contract and there's a devil in my living room, i'm calling the local priest. "hi yes, i need to have my house exercised the devil... yes he's in my living room again... yes yes i'll make a donation after the work is done."

And yet, you didn't take his offer first?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
I believe a "good" character would not draw on evil powers.

corrupting evil powers for good is a trope that comes up with some regularity. A tiefling could play a sorcerer with infernal healing, it's just his evil mojo, but he's trying to use it to do good. all of his magic would have an evil source, regardless of what spell he used, but he's still trying to be good and use his powers that he has, even if they be evil, to do good.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
if there's no mention of a contract and there's a devil in my living room, i'm calling the local priest. "hi yes, i need to have my house exercised the devil... yes he's in my living room again... yes yes i'll make a donation after the work is done."
And yet, you didn't take his offer first?

no i'd start asking about a contract, if he insisted that i didn't need a contract, i'd politely walk over to the phone and call the planar police.


Hmmm, this thread has inspired me to add some houserules about evil spells so that people in my games can't pretend that there is nothing actually evil about them.

I might just have ones like infernal healing use addiction mechanics...


Anzyr wrote:
There's no downside for you in that deal, period. Undoubtedly, the Devil has an ulterior motive for giving that power. But so what? That doesn't make you using it Evil. Even if it ultimately accomplishes whatever "ridiculously circuitous plan" the Devil has devised provided you didn't actually do anything Evil while unintentionally accomplishing it.

...devils are explicitly known for 'ridiculously circuitous plans' that ultimately end in you getting screwed over. That is their entire shtick. Their raison d'etre.

If nothing else, they may plan on giving you power and letting you assign yourself to hell because you became drunk on it.

Am I the only person here that thinks deals with devils are typically a bad idea? And i don't mean in game logic, I mean as a general trope.


lemeres wrote:
Am I the only person here that thinks deals with devils are typically a bad idea? And i don't mean in game logic, I mean as a general trope.

To be fair, I'm the one who turned it into a deal with the devil. The Infernal Healing spell doesn't actually require you to negotiate with an infernal being. I extrapolated an example to make it a bit pseudo-real-world. Using this explicitly evil spell puts you in an evil place and puts your target in an evil place, and even though there is no lasting harm, that should be enough of a reason for good people to avoid it.

Clearly not everybody agrees.

But to answer your question, this line is pretty clear in *MOST* of the genre. Good people walk away from negotiations with the devil (or kick his butt back to hell). While people of less "good" ethics might try to twist his negotiation to their own benefit and use it for good things, the truly "good" heroes don't even go down that path because yes, they do know it's a bad idea.


Well, it is technically possible to do infernal healing without dealing with devils... but expect them to stop answering you phone calls after the 20th time you bleed them dry for nothing in return.

So I assume the supply of devil blood used for the spell has to come from SOMEONE making deals with devils (probably used as an export in Chelaix). So that might make you at least slightly guilty by association (buying stole goods is a crime, for a comparison)


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I just find it funny that the material cost can be bypassed with Eschew Materials...

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Matrix Dragon wrote:

Hmmm, this thread has inspired me to add some houserules about evil spells so that people in my games can't pretend that there is nothing actually evil about them.

I might just have ones like infernal healing use addiction mechanics...

In my worlds, minor [Evil] spells slightly increase the overall suffering of the world - the target's health is restored by stealing it from others. Each time it's cast, a child falls out of a tree and breaks an arm, or an old sick grandmother's condition worsens, or some other minor increase in the world's suffering occurs. Bad luck occurs to someone undeserving.

And yes, [Good] spells increase the happiness of the world in a similar way.


lemeres wrote:

Well, it is technically possible to do infernal healing without dealing with devils... but expect them to stop answering you phone calls after the 20th time you bleed them dry for nothing in return.

So I assume the supply of devil blood used for the spell has to come from SOMEONE making deals with devils (probably used as an export in Chelaix). So that might make you at least slightly guilty by association (buying stole goods is a crime, for a comparison)

All you got to do to get devil blood is planar bind a lemure and install a tap.

Your main issue after that is just the bottling.


Icyshadow wrote:
I just find it funny that the material cost can be bypassed with Eschew Materials...

No need for the feat, every component pouch ever made has unholy water and/or demon blood in it. Even those from LG wizard/paladins... :)


...so it's even easier than I thought!


The thing is that I don't find anything inherently devilish about the spell. It could have just been called "plant healing" or "troll healing" and had the exact same effect except it isn't evil. So I personally dissociate the spell from its planar origins much like how Acid Arrow was called Melf's Acid Arrow in 3.5e.


erik542 wrote:
The thing is that I don't find anything inherently devilish about the spell. It could have just been called "plant healing" or "troll healing" and had the exact same effect except it isn't evil. So I personally dissociate the spell from its planar origins much like how Acid Arrow was called Melf's Acid Arrow in 3.5e.

On the other hand, the spell does have the [Evil] descriptor

As far as I know, Acid Arrow never had the [Melf] descriptor


graystone wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
I just find it funny that the material cost can be bypassed with Eschew Materials...
No need for the feat, every component pouch ever made has unholy water and/or demon blood in it. Even those from LG wizard/paladins... :)

No.

Unholy Water has a specific cost. 25gp. So by definition, it's not in the pouch.

Maybe demon's blood is in the pouch because it doesn't have a specific cost, so it could be in the pouch.

If that's true, then this spell is even more stupid than I thought. Hmmmm, let's put TWO components on this bad boy but only require one of them. One costs 25 gp and is hard to find, the other is free and is supplied in the pouch you have to have anyway, so in essence you always have it. Gosh, that's a tough call. Gee whiz, should I pay 25gp every time I cast this and spend much of my down-time scouring the city for Unholy Water? Or should I just cast it with the endless supply of free demon's blood in my pouch? Hmmmmm...

To me, that's just bad game design. Unfortunately, here it seems to be EXACTLY what they did.

Or you can take a little leap of intuition and assume the demon's blood has a street value of the same amount as the Unholy Water. That way, which ever component you use, it costs 25gp and neither of them are in the pouch. Now it's up to you to figure out which component you want to find next time you're in town...


Making infernal healing cost 25 gp a pop defeats the purpose of the spell.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

that's a vial of unholy water, don't you only need a drop of unholy water?

*shrug* i don't care either way.


DM_Blake wrote:
graystone wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
I just find it funny that the material cost can be bypassed with Eschew Materials...
No need for the feat, every component pouch ever made has unholy water and/or demon blood in it. Even those from LG wizard/paladins... :)

No.

Unholy Water has a specific cost. 25gp. So by definition, it's not in the pouch.

Maybe demon's blood is in the pouch because it doesn't have a specific cost, so it could be in the pouch.

If that's true, then this spell is even more stupid than I thought. Hmmmm, let's put TWO components on this bad boy but only require one of them. One costs 25 gp and is hard to find, the other is free and is supplied in the pouch you have to have anyway, so in essence you always have it. Gosh, that's a tough call. Gee whiz, should I pay 25gp every time I cast this and spend much of my down-time scouring the city for Unholy Water? Or should I just cast it with the endless supply of free demon's blood in my pouch? Hmmmmm...

To me, that's just bad game design. Unfortunately, here it seems to be EXACTLY what they did.

Or you can take a little leap of intuition and assume the demon's blood has a street value of the same amount as the Unholy Water. That way, which ever component you use, it costs 25gp and neither of them are in the pouch. Now it's up to you to figure out which component you want to find next time you're in town...

Ah... Maybe you should read the spell. 1 dose of unholy water is needed. 1 dose of unholy water has no listed cost. All material components with no listed cost are in the pouch.

Now if the spell uses a FLASK of unholy water, you'd have a point. That's not what it uses though.


Yeah, you want the evil part, make the devil blood or unholy water only available if the caster does something evil to get it. If you have Eschew Materials, it means you're making your soul produce devil blood, which is also bad for you...


erik542 wrote:
The thing is that I don't find anything inherently devilish about the spell. It could have just been called "plant healing" or "troll healing" and had the exact same effect except it isn't evil. So I personally dissociate the spell from its planar origins much like how Acid Arrow was called Melf's Acid Arrow in 3.5e.

Didn't this spell first appear in the Inner Sea World Guide, with some Golarion-specific stuff about Asmodeus being involved somehow?

Or is that just an urban legend?


<@><@> School: [Evil]

Black Magic thread, use at your own risk to your soul.


graystone wrote:

Ah... Maybe you should read the spell. 1 dose of unholy water is needed. 1 dose of unholy water has no listed cost. All material components with no listed cost are in the pouch.

Now it the spell uses a FLASK of unholy water, you'd have a point. That's not what it uses though.

What is the Pathfinder rules definition of "dose"? Undefined.

If your character is standing in front of an Angel and you have a few flasks of unholy water, if you say to me "I throw one dose of unholy water at the Angel" I'm pretty sure you and I both know you just threw the whole flask and if it hits, you'll do 2d4 damage.

Find me any game-specific definition of "dose" that, regard to holy water, means less than the whole flask.

Until then, a flask of unholy water deals 2d4 damage to a good outsider. A dose of unholy water deals 2d4 damage to a good outsider.

It's the same.

Saying "Well, 'dose' has no definition so I will leave it undefined, that way I can have as much as I want for free" just smacks of exploitation. Is there a limit to how much we can exploit this? Will the next step be "I have infinite 'doses' of holy water in my spell component pouch, so I'll spend a day of downtime pouring those 'doses' into bottles and sell them for profit!"

Or, just stick to simplicity and recognize that, for holy/unholy water, 1 dose = 1 flask.


DM_Blake wrote:
erik542 wrote:
The thing is that I don't find anything inherently devilish about the spell. It could have just been called "plant healing" or "troll healing" and had the exact same effect except it isn't evil. So I personally dissociate the spell from its planar origins much like how Acid Arrow was called Melf's Acid Arrow in 3.5e.

Didn't this spell first appear in the Inner Sea World Guide, with some Golarion-specific stuff about Asmodeus being involved somehow?

Or is that just an urban legend?

Actually, it's from Asmodeus's entry in Gods & Magic, for use by followers of Asmodeus.


Erik542 wrote:
The thing is that I don't find anything inherently devilish about the spell

It's only a little devilish - a reliable, effective healing spell for arcane casters, using materials that most casters can get for themselves through Summon Monster, or which can be easily obtained by co-operating with evil clerics or devil binders.

It's a nice, low-level, safe spell that doesn't hide what it is and works well. It makes the caster disinhibited about the (Evil) descriptor. It reduces their dependence on divine casters - and since divine casters' powers are linked to the tenets of their god, they are obliged to serve as moral compasses. It creates lonely yet self-sufficient arcane casters. Prime targets.

Maybe not the players - you guys won't split the party. You'll keep on saving orphanages for the sake of those poor yet wonderful orphans, and your GM doesn't force incremental alignment change for questionable actions.

But those maladjusted NPCS... it really doesn't seem like Asmodeus has a recruiting problem. This is why.


I solve this problem of evil spells like this with a tiny change of material spell component. Infernal healing requires two knuckles from the finger of a sentient creature the same species as the caster. That makes it undeniably evil, but just a little. To cast it now requires that some creature lost part of their finger. Cast it a lot and you have to accept that you are fueling a finger economy somewhere.


Aqua-Thor wrote:
I solve this problem of evil spells like this with a tiny change of material spell component. Infernal healing requires two knuckles from the finger of a sentient creature the same species as the caster. That makes it undeniably evil, but just a little. To cast it now requires that some creature lost part of their finger. Cast it a lot and you have to accept that you are fueling a finger economy somewhere.

Not to worry, the yakuza has a surplus of fingers.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Aqua-Thor wrote:
I solve this problem of evil spells like this with a tiny change of material spell component. Infernal healing requires two knuckles from the finger of a sentient creature the same species as the caster. That makes it undeniably evil, but just a little. To cast it now requires that some creature lost part of their finger. Cast it a lot and you have to accept that you are fueling a finger economy somewhere.

trolls... best healers around.


Trolls confirmed best healers/augurs.


Tieflings are naturally drawn to fiendish powers subconsciously, so this should bother this player's Good-aligned Tiefling a lot (Good-aligned Tieflings typically do all they can to keep themselves from being tempted; I myself have a concept for a Tiefling Magus character whose goal is to exterminate fiends but he'll do quite a lot to accomplish that, including using Infernal Healing, so I'm intentionally making him Lawful Neutral to suit his personality).
Describe to him, mostly when he uses the spell, his character feeling a tug on his mind with a sickly sweet feeling to it. Something telling him there's something he wants, something he can get, but something he shouldn't have. If he's attached to his character, then it should work at getting him to worry, and maybe even figure out that it's whenever he uses an Evil spell or item. If he continues on and on without paying attention to it, describe a stronger feeling after a while (more so if he starts using Greater Infernal Healing). If his character comes across an Evil item or something that he doesn't want to use, make that feeling more intense and more frequent (you could even intentionally have the party find an Evil-aligned item for this purpose; it could make things quite interesting). If he doesn't eventually change how his character is behaving, finally bump his alignment over to Chaotic Neutral, saying his character has finally just given in and decided "Hey, whatever, Evil-shmeevil. It's useful, and it's not like it's anything big." which will better match his playing and enforce that there ARE consequences when objective good and evil are a factor. If the player sees this as a total free pass to use Evil spells and items and just toys with them all he wants, keep this going as a subplot with the possibility of shifting his alignment even further.
The outcome will likely be one of three things:
1) the player will catch on and play along with it for a nice character story,
2) the player will realize his errors and change his character's behaviour, possibly attempting to find other, more creative ways of dealing with issues than playing with devils (a redemption would, obviously, also make a nice character story), or
3) he'll handle it in a petty and childish manner and it won't be THIS problem any longer. It'll be a problem with a much more tangible issue than a spell descriptor and character alignment.
Basically, I say turn this into an opportunity for a character subplot rather than treating it solely as a problem. I can't believe nobody else has brought up the Tiefling issues with fiendish powers flavour.


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What honestly baffles me about this is how much people care.

Is the use of a first-level spell that, let's be serious, exists as a mediocre healing option and nothing more that big a deal? Is its use really hurting the story in some way, such that we need to deal with it in such massive and dramatic fashion as an alignment shift or throwing a god at the party?

Or, conversely, do you really think looking at your party and saying "Hey, I know you don't have a Cleric, I know that you're using that spell because it's the best healing option the Wizard/Sorcerer/Magus/whatever has, but I think screwing with your character over that spell is going to enhance the game" is going to enhance the game in some way?

Seriously. I want to point out that it was sincerely suggested to use a Deus ex Machina in order to put the party on a very short timer to counteract a second Deus ex Machina because one of them wanted to use a basic healing spell. By throwing a god at them.

The player isn't trying to use Animate Dead to create an army of skeletal flaming puppies and trying to pass that off as CG because he's using them to visit orphanages to bring cupcakes to children. He's trying to heal his buddies, and he's using the spell because he doesn't have a better option.

The OP recognized this with the notion that he didn't want to punish the player. Advice like "well, just send them to Asmodeus' home turf to deal with the plan he's been working on for eons, oh and give them a two-day timer" isn't really helpful to the OP's point or, well... any kind of logical. The response is way out of proportion to what's actually going on here.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Trolls confirmed best healers/augurs.

he doesn't even have to remove them from his hand, they just pop away and then regrow.


kestral287 wrote:
What honestly baffles me about this is how much people care.

The guy asked a question. People answered. I don't really care what he does, specifically; I don't know the guy and I'm not invested in the choices he makes.

Probably everynne else replying feels much the same way.

What I do care about is that a fellow player, a fellow GM, even a stranger I don't know, gets an answer that he likes. Is it mine? I don't really care; not invested. But I do like the lively discussion that might help this guy out, and I really do care about that.

kestral287 wrote:
The OP recognized this with the notion that he didn't want to punish the player. Advice like "well, just send them to Asmodeus' home turf to deal with the plan he's been working on for eons, oh and give them a two-day timer" isn't really helpful to the OP's point or, well... any kind of logical. The response is way out of proportion to what's actually going on here.

That was me, and it wasn't 2 days, it was nearly a month. It was meant to be a plot hook. I like that kind of thing. A good jaunt to some dangerous outer plan in the low-mid teens is a wonderful side adventure. Throw in a time limit and watch the players beat the clock. I'm pretty sure such a thing would happen LONG after the player was done using that spell as anything other than topping off between fights, and just topping off minor scratches at that.

I don't personally feel that a side quest with lots of danger, adventure, and (hopefully if this guy is a good GM) reward is a "punishment" nor do I feel like it's "out of proportion". I just feel like it's a good old-fashioned quest for appropriately-leveled characters.

You know, the kind of thing some of us play this game for.


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DM_Blake wrote:
Now the PC and his group must journey to the Abyss and find a way to stop Asmodeus' evil plan.

Now just hold on one second! Some people might be offended by that comment you see... Asomdeus is in charge of HELL, not the Abyss! The Abyss is where DEMONS live, while Hell is where Devils live. Gosh, some people are so insensitive.

/sillyrant


See, this is why melee types do not deserve nice things. They don't even have their facts straight!


It is totally within the bounds of the rules for a GM to change the alignment of any NPC at any time, so if he uses infernal healing on an NPC, just permanently change their alignment. Make it obvious, and you have an adventure hook.....


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Mechagamera wrote:
It is totally within the bounds of the rules for a GM to change the alignment of any NPC at any time, so if he uses infernal healing on an NPC, just permanently change their alignment. Make it obvious, and you have an adventure hook.....

and then the character doesn't even act lawful evil.


Alexander S. Modeus wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Now the PC and his group must journey to the Abyss and find a way to stop Asmodeus' evil plan.

Now just hold on one second! Some people might be offended by that comment you see... Asomdeus is in charge of HELL, not the Abyss! The Abyss is where DEMONS live, while Hell is where Devils live. Gosh, some people are so insensitive.

/sillyrant

Hah, you're right. Good catch.

Bad tarrasque, very bad!


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
DM_Blake wrote:
Alexander S. Modeus wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Now the PC and his group must journey to the Abyss and find a way to stop Asmodeus' evil plan.

Now just hold on one second! Some people might be offended by that comment you see... Asomdeus is in charge of HELL, not the Abyss! The Abyss is where DEMONS live, while Hell is where Devils live. Gosh, some people are so insensitive.

/sillyrant

Hah, you're right. Good catch.

Bad tarrasque, very bad!

it's okay you do eat all your books before you finish reading them.


First off, thanks for the input and the brainstorming. I can see many good ideas that I will use in the future (and future campaigns).

Secondly, an update. The tiefling magus, Malak, has now attracted the attention of an imp (when he got the Familiar arcana and Improved Familiar feat) who offered him a deal of servitude, complete with additional free infernal and arcane knowledge, in exchange for monthly offerings of lesser beings (animals).

He accepted, thinking he would be able to keep the imp from corrupting him further, knowing that so far, his soul was still his own (except for some fineprints that damn his soul if he doesn't make his monthly offering or plots against Hell). The imp disguised himself as a raven familiar when out in public (or even around the party).

Last session (during the end of ToTB, at Shloss Caromarc), the CG Cayden-following swashbuckler, Valero, died at the claws of the Aberrant Promethean, in one of the most epic fights I had ever seen. The cleric of Pharasma was lying on the floor one level lower, bleeding out.

Valero then stood in line to await his judgement at the Boneyard, the Raven (Imp) familiar appeared there, claiming to be able to help. He offered him a contract for a Wish, to resurrect him. The swashbuckler, devoid of any Knowledge skills, accepted (mostly because the line was too long, and he hates waiting), only to be informed after the fight was done what his price was (Wisdom 7 and Intelligence 10 meant for him to be unable to read the fineprint of the contract)...

So, the magus discovered he was right when he thought his soul was safe. He also discovered the souls of his party members weren't...

His alignment is now Chaotic Neutral, and slightly shifting towards Neutral (because of his strict adherance to the contract with his familiar).


Hello Pavlovian.

Since the spell uses devil's blood and has the [Evil] descriptor, you could let a person who has been a repeat recipient of this spell have a -2 penalty to will-saves against mind-affecting spells used by devils.

I'm not gonna pretend I'm a fan of letting spellcasting affect the magus' alignment, but since you're going with it, I'll applaud that you're trying to add flavour based on the spell description, rather than jerk around your players.

-Nearyn


Nearyn wrote:

Hello Pavlovian.

Since the spell uses devil's blood and has the [Evil] descriptor, you could let a person who has been a repeat recipient of this spell have a -2 penalty to will-saves against mind-affecting spells used by devils.

I'm not gonna pretend I'm a fan of letting spellcasting affect the magus' alignment, but since you're going with it, I'll applaud that you're trying to add flavour based on the spell description, rather than jerk around your players.

-Nearyn

That's a good idea as well. I'm hoping actually that the character will come to his senses and see that his quest for power has too high a cost, but time will tell.


Pavlovian wrote:

First off, thanks for the input and the brainstorming. I can see many good ideas that I will use in the future (and future campaigns).

Secondly, an update. The tiefling magus, Malak, has now attracted the attention of an imp (when he got the Familiar arcana and Improved Familiar feat) who offered him a deal of servitude, complete with additional free infernal and arcane knowledge, in exchange for monthly offerings of lesser beings (animals).

He accepted, thinking he would be able to keep the imp from corrupting him further, knowing that so far, his soul was still his own (except for some fineprints that damn his soul if he doesn't make his monthly offering or plots against Hell). The imp disguised himself as a raven familiar when out in public (or even around the party).

Last session (during the end of ToTB, at Shloss Caromarc), the CG Cayden-following swashbuckler, Valero, died at the claws of the Aberrant Promethean, in one of the most epic fights I had ever seen. The cleric of Pharasma was lying on the floor one level lower, bleeding out.

Valero then stood in line to await his judgement at the Boneyard, the Raven (Imp) familiar appeared there, claiming to be able to help. He offered him a contract for a Wish, to resurrect him. The swashbuckler, devoid of any Knowledge skills, accepted (mostly because the line was too long, and he hates waiting), only to be informed after the fight was done what his price was (Wisdom 7 and Intelligence 10 meant for him to be unable to read the fineprint of the contract)...

So, the magus discovered he was right when he thought his soul was safe. He also discovered the souls of his party members weren't...

His alignment is now Chaotic Neutral, and slightly shifting towards Neutral (because of his strict adherance to the contract with his familiar).

Uh, he actually can't have an imp familiar. Not to mention I see nothing there that would change a CG to CN. Sacrifice of animals is definitely not Evil, unless you presume most religions are also Evil. And I see no indication that the Magus' (not possible under the rules read the feat) Imp has successfully corrupted the Magus at all. Your alignment change seems pretty arbitrary and if I were the player I'd question your logic.

And seriously go reread Improved Familiar.


It's true that by RAW the magus cannot have an imp familiar, but the OP has made no claim that he's running the game strictly by RAW.

In fact, since he's letting use of a spell have an effect on the magus' alignment, we can safely say he's not playing it by RAW - at least not Core. Also, he's talking about adding an extra effect to the use of the spell, an effect not covered in the rules.

So yes, he's coloring outside the lines when it comes to which familiar the magus has, but I don't think it really matters =]

He wants to get some hellish funtimes going with the magus, and at his table, that is his right, as long as his players are in on the fun :)

-Nearyn


I think the scarring/growth of devilish aspects works best, maybe give the character something like Hellboy's horns?

they only grow partially every time he uses the spell then give him a choice:

1. He files them down/cuts them off as they grow, every so many times he uses the spell gives his horns/aspect enough mass he can use it with the spell to get bonus healing(making the evil descriptor last longer and his horns grow faster)

2. He lets them grow out, they give him the same bonuses to infernal healing, but give him negatives to disguise and make him detect as both evil and not evil, throw a crazy cultist or two at him trying to get the horns to summon their lord, write up conditions where If he does x, y, and/or Z(make him removing them summon one for interesting "see, I'm not evil, I removed the horns, O S#++" shenanigans) a demon/devil/imp is summoned(not controlled by him).


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M1k31 wrote:

I think the scarring/growth of devilish aspects works best, maybe give the character something like Hellboy's horns?

they only grow partially every time he uses the spell then give him a choice:

1. He files them down/cuts them off as they grow, every so many times he uses the spell gives his horns/aspect enough mass he can use it with the spell to get bonus healing(making the evil descriptor last longer and his horns grow faster)

2. He lets them grow out, they give him the same bonuses to infernal healing, but give him negatives to disguise and make him detect as both evil and not evil, throw a crazy cultist or two at him trying to get the horns to summon their lord, write up conditions where If he does x, y, and/or Z(make him removing them summon one for interesting "see, I'm not evil, I removed the horns, O S$*%" shenanigans) a demon/devil/imp is summoned(not controlled by him).

Making up rules that effect a PCs character without their agreement is a not a good thing. It's an "Avoid at all costs." thing.


Anzyr wrote:
M1k31 wrote:

I think the scarring/growth of devilish aspects works best, maybe give the character something like Hellboy's horns?

they only grow partially every time he uses the spell then give him a choice:

1. He files them down/cuts them off as they grow, every so many times he uses the spell gives his horns/aspect enough mass he can use it with the spell to get bonus healing(making the evil descriptor last longer and his horns grow faster)

2. He lets them grow out, they give him the same bonuses to infernal healing, but give him negatives to disguise and make him detect as both evil and not evil, throw a crazy cultist or two at him trying to get the horns to summon their lord, write up conditions where If he does x, y, and/or Z(make him removing them summon one for interesting "see, I'm not evil, I removed the horns, O S$*%" shenanigans) a demon/devil/imp is summoned(not controlled by him).

Making up rules that effect a PCs character without their agreement is a not a good thing. It's an "Avoid at all costs." thing.

My first suggestion was to rule:

"scarring/growth of devilish aspects" applies during infernal healing, I suppose I did not separate or clarify the first part of what I was describing, because someone else posted it first, that you could houserule that flesh healed by IH heals, yet leaves scarring or creates infernal looking flesh rather than normal flesh.

The second part was almost entirely a suggestion dependent on agreement with the PC, that is why I specifically stated it should give boons(healing boosts) as well as detrimental effects(detecting evil, disguise issues, and cultists although to be more specific those character concepts should just be tagged onto characters already in the adventure unless the player thinks it would be OK to be targeted). I also gave a way to remove the superficial growth(the first option), making the added effects almost entirely optional.

Any ruling a GM makes without RAW should always be discussed with the players beforehand when relevant, to believe otherwise is fooling yourself, this is why I did not state "discuss with the player beforehand"... because it is naturally implied, you don't tell someone, "we need to keep breathing and talk", you say "we need to talk".


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This is why I believe alignment descriptors on spells are sort of dumb. Actions are evil. Intents are evil. Power is just a means to an end, and can be used for good or evil. It has no innate morality. Why are spells evil in Pathfinder? Because they have the evil descriptor, that's why. It's pretty bad reasoning, and leads to a lot of headaches.


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Triune wrote:
This is why I believe alignment descriptors on spells are sort of dumb. Actions are evil. Intents are evil. Power is just a means to an end, and can be used for good or evil. It has no innate morality. Why are spells evil in Pathfinder? Because they have the evil descriptor, that's why. It's pretty bad reasoning, and leads to a lot of headaches.

You'll be happy to know then, that by core RAW casting an [evil] spell makes you no more evil, than casting a [cold] spell gives you the flu.

There are optional setting-specific rules that a GM may employ whereby aligned descriptors influence the alignment of actions, they are specified in the book Champions of Purity. As long as you stick with core, you can save yourself the headache and just say:

"no, your character doesn't get to go to heaven, just because she chain-casts protection from evil on herself for 2 months straight - the descriptor does not change your character's alignment"

-Nearyn


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Triune wrote:
This is why I believe alignment descriptors on spells are sort of dumb. Actions are evil. Intents are evil. Power is just a means to an end, and can be used for good or evil. It has no innate morality. Why are spells evil in Pathfinder? Because they have the evil descriptor, that's why. It's pretty bad reasoning, and leads to a lot of headaches.

They have the good / evil descriptor, because cleric are not able to cast spell that are opposite to there alignment.

Good cleric are not able to memorize evil spells, and evil cleric are not able to memorize good spells. As listed under the cleric character description section of what spells they can cast.

Really, there are not that many spells that used them. And almost all spell that have them, .. are there as a limiting factor to which cleric are able to use them.


Anzyr wrote:
Uh, he actually can't have an imp familiar. Not to mention I see nothing there that would change a CG to CN. Sacrifice of animals is definitely not Evil, unless you presume most...

First off, I know of how IF works. I have chosen to ignore RAW in this, as the rp aspect of having a familiar corrupt its master is a very fun concept.

Secondly, sacrificing animals might not be inherently evil (that's a debate for theologists and philosophists), but you could make a point that killing anything for any reason is not a good thing. The reason the imp asks this monthly favor is to 'teach' its master that killing something 'lesser' than you is ok, hoping he will learn to see others the same way.

Third, his alignment change came to pass when he learned what had happened to his fellow adventurer's soul, and that it was his familiar who had arranged the deal. He just brushed it off as 'his choice, his problem.' Imo, the fact he seeks out power by taking an imp familiar, and bringing that Evil in the world, the alignment shift could happen.

Lastly, on the whole 'changing rules without their agreement'-remark: I am sure my players are outspoken enough to express their greavances, should there be any. So far, however, they have all (especially the tiefling) said that they are thoroughly enjoying the game and the familiar's antics. And about your RAW-worship, I see RAW more as guidelines than strict rules.

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